The god fallacy

[Nara]

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Theists of all strpes assert a Pramatna, and as a corralary, assert a jeevAtma of some kind, or vice versa. They further assume one jeeAtma in each body, and they point to the I-consciousness as proof. This unitary I-cognizance is offered to us as a sure shot proof of an entity called Jeeva, separate and different from the body.

For the moment let us overlook such extraordinary claims as astral body, etc., and look just at this Jeeva a little closely. A Jeeva, that is a separate entity from body, resides in the body, and experiences everything that happens to the body and beyond, raises many unanswerable questions. For the present, let us take just one question, where does it reside? SVs claim it resides in the heart. If so, what happens if one undergoes a heart transplant? What happens when the replacemented heart is a mechanical one?

Some others may argue the jeeva is actually in some specific place in the brain, like a president in his oval office controlling and directing everything. If so, how could one explain the case of split brain? Take a look at this fascinating account by Dr. Ramachandran -- Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist - YouTube.

These observations surely do not give us definitive answer to the question of what consciousness is all about, but it surely puts to rest the claims of the theists that there is an unitary Jeeva residing somewhere in the body.

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi JK:

How are you?

My view is Theists will be better off if they say, "Our Belief and Faith is important to us. That comes from our Tradition. We don't need to get any LOGICAL or RATIONAL meaning for what all we do".

The problems come when these People of Belief & Faith venture into LOGIC and REASONING. They need to quit this attempt.

By definition, Belief & Faith means suspension of LOGIC & REASONING, IMO.

Take care.

Y

ps. According to Nobelist Amartyan Sen who knows Sanskrit very well, there are plenty of literature available in Sanskrit about Atheism; even Vedas talk about it in detail. For some reason, such literature is totally ignored by the People of Belief & Faith. Why?

Hi Yamaka,

Thanks !. I am doing good, been travelling quite a bit, hence away from all these forums.

yes, the beauty of Vedas are it has both theist & atheist literature, extensive debates between various sages, sadhus on does God exist or not.

However I have to disagree with your point that it is just a belief & faith, hence has no rational basis. your point that believers are irrational is totally baseless. even believers want to see their religious basis proved right by science.

for me, the fact that the Vedas talk about "time travel" is extra-ordinary !!. How could a ancient civilization "even think" about "time travel", "ageless & timeless body & mind", consious & unconsious mind, jeeva, atma etc.. come on !, they didnt have the scientific advances like we do, !! you cannot just imagine these tales, hence the possibility of a "divine revelation" !!

I am sure you would have said all these are fantastic tales before Einstein came along & proved it right !.

so it is not faith & belief, but analysing & combining scientific progress, it is fair to say that the most advanced vedic civiliation may have answers to the origin & purpose of life afterall !!!.

Cheers,
JK

 

[Jaykay767]

Theists of all strpes assert a Pramatna, and as a corralary, assert a jeevAtma of some kind, or vice versa. They further assume one jeeAtma in each body, and they point to the I-consciousness as proof. This unitary I-cognizance is offered to us as a sure shot proof of an entity called Jeeva, separate and different from the body.

For the moment let us overlook such extraordinary claims as astral body, etc., and look just at this Jeeva a little closely. A Jeeva, that is a separate entity from body, resides in the body, and experiences everything that happens to the body and beyond, raises many unanswerable questions. For the present, let us take just one question, where does it reside? SVs claim it resides in the heart. If so, what happens if one undergoes a heart transplant? What happens when the replacemented heart is a mechanical one?

Some others may argue the jeeva is actually in some specific place in the brain, like a president in his oval office controlling and directing everything. If so, how could one explain the case of split brain? Take a look at this fascinating account by Dr. Ramachandran -- Split brain with one half atheist and one half theist - YouTube.

These observations surely do not give us definitive answer to the question of what consciousness is all about, but it surely puts to rest the claims of the theists that there is an unitary Jeeva residing somewhere in the body.

Cheers!

Hi Nara,

Jeevatma is the "life force" in all of us, & it comes from the Bramhan - the ultimate being. Hence God is both formless & in form. thats why God is protrayed in the human form, animal form etc..

The point on where the jeevatma resides in the body is misleading. It is a invisible life force that resides in the body & gives the "I" consicousness for each of us.

The thesis on split brain only proves the co-existence of Good & evil, the logical & the intuitive, etc.. So not surprising that 1 part of the brain is logical & the other intuitive.

Also Jeevatma has both good & evil in it!. The same jeevatma exists in the Gods & the Demons !. so how a person lives his life whether the path of Good or Evil determines his course of journey.

Cheers,
JK

 

[Nara]

... It is a invisible life force that resides in the body & gives the "I" consicousness for each of us.

Conjoined Twins, Abby & Brittany Hensel turn 16 - YouTube

 

[Jaykay767]

Conjoined Twins, Abby & Brittany Hensel turn 16 - YouTube

well, this doesnt prove the jeevatma's wrong. I would say the twins are 2 separate jeevatmas trapped in the same body. Because there are 2 separate "I" consciousness.

 

[Jaykay767]

Hi JK:

How are you?

My view is Theists will be better off if they say, "Our Belief and Faith is important to us. That comes from our Tradition. We don't need to get any LOGICAL or RATIONAL meaning for what all we do".

The problems come when these People of Belief & Faith venture into LOGIC and REASONING. They need to quit this attempt.

By definition, Belief & Faith means suspension of LOGIC & REASONING, IMO.

Take care.

Y

ps. According to Nobelist Amartyan Sen who knows Sanskrit very well, there are plenty of literature available in Sanskrit about Atheism; even Vedas talk about it in detail. For some reason, such literature is totally ignored by the People of Belief & Faith. Why?

There is extensive scientific research on "out of body" experience, mind telepathy, transcedental meditation, possibility of the mind being able to see the "higher dimensional worlds - 4th, 5th etc.. dimensions" that we cannot see being in 3rd dimension, etc..

while these are not proven yet, they all point towards our understanding from the Vedas.

The most important thing we need to look at is - "it is impossible to imagine time travels, weapons of mass destruction etc.." and write about it , none of the western novelist during the last 2000 yrs (prior to einstein) have ever written anything like this.

So it not possible for a civilization like ours 2000 yrs back or more to write about all this without a alien contact or a divine revelation !.

 

[Nara]

well, this doesnt prove the jeevatma's wrong. I would say the twins are 2 separate jeevatmas trapped in the same body. Because there are 2 separate "I" consciousness.

It is a pity that people just want to jump in with canned responses, it is all in the Vedas, the Vedic people already knew everything, they were better than H.G. Wells, they were ahead of Leonardo da Vinci etc., etc. Let it be, if it works, then it works, who is to say otherwise. Others, please pause and think about the implication.

The first video of Ramachandran shows two different I-consciousness within the same body because the brain was accidentally severed at the middle. The second video of co-joined twins is even more fascinating. There are two heads with two fully functioning brains, yet each brain's consciousness pervades only one half of the body, intriguing!! Yet their brains can coordinate the act of clapping as though they are perfectly in sync like a single brain directing both the hands.

To say God made all this to happen is an easy cop out, not to mention a very poor designer/creator.

When it comes to studying this I-consciousness, the religious of all stripes, including the followers of Brahminism, are stuck with their ancient texts, brhman, jeeva, higher knowledge, lower knowledge -- everything completely made up and asserted with not a single piece of verifiable evidence, it is all beyond human comprehension, but somehow they are able to comprehend it so precisely and positively!!!

In contrast, the meticulous scientific process is slowly, but steadily, pulling the curtain back and revealing some really exciting new information and knowledge. If you want to stay stuck with the Vedas then it is your loss.

Cheers!

 

[Jaykay767]

It is a pity that people just want to jump in with canned responses, it is all in the Vedas, the Vedic people already knew everything, they were better than H.G. Wells, they were ahead of Leonardo da Vinci etc., etc. Let it be, if it works, then it works, who is to say otherwise. Others, please pause and think about the implication.

The first video of Ramachandran shows two different I-consciousness within the same body because the brain was accidentally severed at the middle. The second video of co-joined twins is even more fascinating. There are two heads with two fully functioning brains, yet each brain's consciousness pervades only one half of the body, intriguing!! Yet their brains can coordinate the act of clapping as though they are perfectly in sync like a single brain directing both the hands.

To say God made all this to happen is an easy cop out, not to mention a very poor designer/creator.

When it comes to studying this I-consciousness, the religious of all stripes, including the followers of Brahminism, are stuck with their ancient texts, brhman, jeeva, higher knowledge, lower knowledge -- everything completely made up and asserted with not a single piece of verifiable evidence, it is all beyond human comprehension, but somehow they are able to comprehend it so precisely and positively!!!

In contrast, the meticulous scientific process is slowly, but steadily, pulling the curtain back and revealing some really exciting new information and knowledge. If you want to stay stuck with the Vedas then it is your loss.

Cheers!

Let me clarify - I did not start out saying the Vedas are the ultimate truth & trying to retrofit all events, situations etc..

Purely from a scientific rational mind, who would have expected time travels to be proved, weapons of mass destruction, matter & energy are interchangeable, & surprisingly - matter & anti matter co-exist & when they collide, Big Bang theory, the transform into energy etc.., out of body experience, seeing a bright light at the end of the tunnel in the case of near death experience, mind telepathy, transcedental meditation & its effects etc..

Now that the above have a good scientific basis, we can draw parallels to the stories, tales & thesis propagated by the Vedas.

My point is - "how can a primitive civilization come up with such advanced theories without some alien contact or divine revelation" ?

so with more & more scientific advances, our Vedas are being proved "largely correct" since science is converging to that view.

yes, jeevatmas have yet to be proven by science. However our Vedas are littered with num of gods, asuras with multiple heads, hands, legs etc.. so it is not that the co-joined twins are not known to them!!

as far as the split brain is concerned, how can you say that it has 2 "I" consiciousness ?

Cheers,
JK

 

[Jaykay767]

It is a pity that people just want to jump in with canned responses, it is all in the Vedas, the Vedic people already knew everything, they were better than H.G. Wells, they were ahead of Leonardo da Vinci etc., etc. Let it be, if it works, then it works, who is to say otherwise. Others, please pause and think about the implication.

The first video of Ramachandran shows two different I-consciousness within the same body because the brain was accidentally severed at the middle. The second video of co-joined twins is even more fascinating. There are two heads with two fully functioning brains, yet each brain's consciousness pervades only one half of the body, intriguing!! Yet their brains can coordinate the act of clapping as though they are perfectly in sync like a single brain directing both the hands.

To say God made all this to happen is an easy cop out, not to mention a very poor designer/creator.

When it comes to studying this I-consciousness, the religious of all stripes, including the followers of Brahminism, are stuck with their ancient texts, brhman, jeeva, higher knowledge, lower knowledge -- everything completely made up and asserted with not a single piece of verifiable evidence, it is all beyond human comprehension, but somehow they are able to comprehend it so precisely and positively!!!

In contrast, the meticulous scientific process is slowly, but steadily, pulling the curtain back and revealing some really exciting new information and knowledge. If you want to stay stuck with the Vedas then it is your loss.

Cheers!

On a lighter note, I have a squeaky feeling that Eistein took the whole idea of time travel, matter is convertible to energy etc.. from our Vedas Since the german researchers were heavily involved in decoding the sanskrit literature during his time. By the way the word "Aryan" came from our Vedas, germans were so stunned by our texts, they started claiming that their race was the Aryans (becos the vedas asssociate Aryan with Blonde hair - golden hair like sun, Blue eyes - like deep blue sea & White skin - like the white clouds) & started claiming supremacy over everyone. However Hitler & his fools forgot that the aryan's worshipped dark gods & the vedic texts came from the dark egyptian/dravidian race in the first place !!. refer my posts under religions on the history of dravidians & being descendants of the eyptians.

so while I am not claiming that the Vedas should be accepted without proof, the scientific advances definitely point to that direction !!

 

[sarang]

Sanatana dharma followers are comfortable with the supremacy of vedas, the spiritual knowledge buried in them, and the highest state they can reach; they are equally comfortable with with so called sciences at low level (like when you burn wood you get ash) or at higher level (like time space continum or big bang). Accumulation of knowledge in one sphere does not negate the other. Only the anti sanatana dharma atheists stand to lose a lot by ignoring the spiritual path.

 

[S.Ramanathan]

Dear sir,

I do not agree with "Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;"

God listens our prayers. I experienced in my life. If prayers are not listen then how pal dinakaran is so popular?

regards,
S. Ramanathan

 

[Yamaka]

Dear sir,

I do not agree with "Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;"

God listens our prayers. I experienced in my life. If prayers are not listen then how pal dinakaran is so popular?

regards,
S. Ramanathan

God may listen if HE is there. The argument is God is not a Human Being to listen to the prayers and dole out favors for the worshipers.

God could be the Force of Nature.. This Force can't listen to the "bribery call" of the worshipers.. This Force acts according to ITS own logic and reasoning, most of which humans can't comprehend.

But Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans have very negative meaning to the Society -

I learned from one of my collegemates that his uncle was working for a very unscrupulous hotel owner in Madurai. This hotel owner runs many cafetaria in Madurai area; his business is very popular in Madurai. He appears all the time very pious and "good" devotee of Sabari Malai Gods!

However, his practices are horrendous: he mixes sand, stones and calcium in all the foods his cook prepares for the public; he sold liquor illegally when the State was dry; he even is a part of a Currency Counterfeiting Gang in Madurai.

But, he worships his Gods every hour on the hour with lots of fanfare! He believes in this doctrine,

"Business people must do everything to make MONEY. It's their Dharma. If you do any unscrupulous practices, just ask the Gods to forgive you by constantly praying.. running poojas quite often. According to the Scriptures, all your SINS will be nullified if God listens to your prayers. Such is the nature of our Gods in Heavens".

This prayers, poojas and bhajan are the reasons India has more crimes than China, where hardly anyone prays any God for anything! They are mostly Atheists!

Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

God may listen if HE is there. The argument is God is not a Human Being to listen to the prayers and dole out favors for the worshipers.

God could be the Force of Nature.. This Force can't listen to the "bribery call" of the worshipers.. This Force acts according to ITS own logic and reasoning, most of which humans can't comprehend.

But Prayers, Poojas and Bhajans have very negative meaning to the Society -

I learned from one of my collegemates that his uncle was working for a very unscrupulous hotel owner in Madurai. This hotel owner runs many cafetaria in Madurai area; his business is very popular in Madurai. He appears all the time very pious and "good" devotee of Sabari Malai Gods!

However, his practices are horrendous: he mixes sand, stones and calcium in all the foods his cook prepares for the public; he sold liquor illegally when the State was dry; he even is a part of a Currency Counterfeiting Gang in Madurai.

But, he worships his Gods every hour on the hour with lots of fanfare! He believes in this doctrine,

"Business people must do everything to make MONEY. It's their Dharma. If you do any unscrupulous practices, just ask the Gods to forgive you by constantly praying.. running poojas quite often. According to the Scriptures, all your SINS will be nullified if God listens to your prayers. Such is the nature of our Gods in Heavens".

This prayers, poojas and bhajan are the reasons India has more crimes than China, where hardly anyone prays any God for anything! They are mostly Atheists!

Cheers.

You can not expect to cure your disease just by consuming medicines. You have to follow certain restrictions too to recover from your illness.

Fools and arrogant folks are many who thinks that Medical Science is too advanced and a Dr. should be competent to prescribe right medicines such that he/she can eat, drink and eat anything and can do anything and still he/she should recover from his/her illness.

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

Apparently on this website called "Tamil Brahmins.com", one finds that there are a large number of members, who never cared to learn the language called 'Sanskrit' or to know about what is in that language by way of 'spiritual' texts called the four 'Vedas' with the concluding chapters called the 'Upanishads', or about the 'Brahma Sutras', the 'Bhagvad Gita' and so forth! They have not cared to read and acquire any knowledge of the learned commentaries on the 'Upanishads', 'Brahma Sutras' or 'Bhagvad Gita' to understand the high level of 'logic' and 'reasoning' displayed by those scholarly commentators! In their ignorance, they sing 'paeans of praise' of all things that the so-called 'logical' and 'rational' scientists of modern age, particularly from the western countries, stand for! Actually, if one has lived across the sub-continent -- north, south, east and west -- one will find that a majority of the people of this country are either 'dark-skinned' or 'brown-skinned', and not 'fair' at all, but they accept the 'Sanskritic' heritage.They say that the so-called 'divide' between 'northern' and 'southern' part of the country is owing to 'historical discrimination', but I wonder whether it is not the making of the British, who ruled over this sub-continent for a couple of centuries, and who were well-versed in the art of 'divide and rule' in order to maintain their dominance!

Anyhow, I would like to recommend here a book in the English language called the "Vedic Concept of God' by one 'Vidyanand Saraswati' published by the 'Deva Vedic Prakashana', Bombay, in the year 1983, which makes interesting reading! It deals with almost all the issues raised by the person who started this post!

 

[Nara]

...., but they do not display the kind of 'anti-Sanskritic' stance that is displayed by these members!

Dear MVS, this is an unfounded charge. Please cite specific posts where you found this 'anti-Sanskrit' stand.

Anyhow, I would like to recommend here a book in the English language called the "Vedic Concept of God' by one 'Vidyanand Saraswati' published by the 'Deva Vedic Prakashana' in the year 1983, which makes interesting reading! It deals with all the issues raised by the person who started this post!

In my experience all these books are filled with no more worthwhile or interesting arguments than what you or others present here. In any case, why don't you present these answers in the form of excerpts and let us see how logical they are.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

You can not expect to cure your disease just by consuming medicines. You have to follow certain restrictions too to recover from your illness.

Fools and arrogant folks are many who thinks that Medical Science is too advanced and a Dr. should be competent to prescribe right medicines such that he/she can eat, drink and eat anything and can do anything and still he/she should recover from his/her illness.

The whole idea of SNA = God the "HE" not "IT" means PPB has relevance as far as the Worshipers are concerned.

They have the RIGHT to use / abuse PPB as per their understanding of the Scriptures - for 90% of the people don't know Sanskrit and they may not know what exactly is said in them.

All goes by ones INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures. Thus the unscrupulous Hotel owner has his RIGHT to use PPB the way he deems it RIGHT!

Where's the problem? Except, the crime rate is lot higher than Atheist Land! Lol. That's the cumulative effect of Theism in India!

Corruption, Theft and Murder are skyrocketing in the name of God, Ghosts, Spirits and Religions!

 

[C RAVI]

The whole idea of SNA = God the "HE" not "IT" means PPB has relevance as far as the Worshipers are concerned.

They have the RIGHT to use / abuse PPB as per their understanding of the Scriptures - for 90% of the people don't know Sanskrit and they may not know what exactly is said in them.

All goes by ones INTERPRETATION of the Scriptures. Thus the unscrupulous Hotel owner has his RIGHT to use PPB the way he deems it RIGHT!

Where's the problem? Except, the crime rate is lot higher than Atheist Land! Lol. That's the cumulative effect of Theism in India!

Corruption, Theft and Murder are skyrocketing in the name of God, Ghosts, Spirits and Religions!

Shri Yamaka,

I have re-iterated many a times in all relevant threads that, Theist folks are many who indulge in all unethical and immoral activities and still carry on with their belief in God and do all sort of spiritual activities, thinking, their all knowing personal GOD will still protect them and assist them in their attempts to earn/accumulate money. Such folks are not working towards spiritual enhancement in right spirit. They are just deluded that their spiritual activities makes sense. They are not bothered about understanding of the scriptures either by self reading or preaching by scholars. The charity they do out of their unscrupulous business activities, with their true sense of empathy and compassion towards underprivileged folks may help them to be a refined person to some extent in their next birth.

Above types of theist folks are in millions from any religion and from any country.

Presence of these folks does not make the truth, untruth.


Presence of plenty of dirty politicians does not make the subject/concept of politics itself dirty/irrelevant/destructive. Immoral and unethical folks makes the politics a sewage.

Presence of plenty of corrupted Government officials/authorities does not make the subject/concept of Governance and administration itself dirty/irrelevant/destructive. Corrupted and immoral officials make governance/administration stinking.

Presence of plenty of unethical/immoral business folks does not make the subject/concept of Business itself dirty/irrelevant/destructive. Greedy and filthy folks indulge in unethical business dealings. As well come up with many immoral/unethical/anti human/anti social business strategies/concepts.

People are many who manipulate with the PUREST for their ulterior motives. That does not make the Purest itself IMPURE.

 

[Mayuram V.Sankaran]

Dear MVS, this is an unfounded charge. Please cite specific posts where you found this 'anti-Sanskrit' stand.

In my experience all these books are filled with no more worthwhile or interesting arguments than what you or others present here. In any case, why don't you present these answers in the form of excerpts and let us see how logical they are.

Cheers!

Shri Nara, My regrets and to avoid any controversy, I have 'edited' my earlier post to remove what you considered as 'without basis' and 'offending' portion. Still I have kept my observation on the so-called 'division' within the country, which I felt is just and necessary.

As regards 'excerpts' from the book referred to by me, I attempt the following:

"To 'define' is to 'limit'! 'God' may, therefore, be described, but he cannot be defined";

"As commonly understood, God is the creative mind of the cosmos, with a consciousness of the general plan and direction of the cosmos before it was actualized in space and time";

"He has been credited with several attributes, such as, 'omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence', since He is considered as the great spirit which exists at all times and creates, sustains and destroys everything -- material objects and lower spirits or souls";

"He is also credited with being the source of all 'Shastras' ('knowledge')";

"A distinction has to be made between God, the individual souls and matter (or 'Prakriti')";

"God is the creator of the cosmos and He rules over the souls and matter";

"We have to distinguish between two kinds of 'causes' in the process of creation: efficient and material. An 'efficient' cause is that by whom a thing is made and without whom nothing can be made. The 'material' cause, on the other hand, is that without which a thing cannot be made, and which takes different names and forms, and which can also be dissolved" (e.g., when a pot is made, the potter is the 'efficient' cause and clay is the 'material' cause)";

"The 'effect' implies two things -- firstly, the 'designer' which is an intelligent agent that remains unchanged throughout and has the capacity to work out the change; and secondly, the raw 'material' which by itself cannot change into an order or design, but which has the capacity to be worked upon, to be moulded, modified, ordained or designed";

"Nature ('Prakriti') is an immense complexity of elements which is ever changing. However, if all the effects are latent in their causes, there must be an un-caused cause. From the principle of causality, it is deduced that the ultimate basis of empirical universe is the 'unmanifested' Prakriti";

"'God' without 'matter' would be an artist without a canvas or a sculptor without the carving or moulding material";

"If we posit the existence of matter only, the passing of 'inorganic' matter into 'organic living' matter would ever remain a riddle";

"Life is eternal; it inheres in the soul";

"We have thus three eternal categories -- God, matter and souls. However, God is the governor and guide of matter and soul";

The above three trinities answer the questions: Creation by whom? Creation for whom? And, Creation from what?";

"The gross matter of the universe is made up of varying combinations of rudimentary matter. The gross elements give rise, by modifications, to different kinds of things. All the elements are non-intelligent and cannot by themselves bring about their development in an order. Therefore, when we postulate the existence of an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God, it is not an hypothetical postulate based on an 'irrational faith', but on a concept of admiration of a Supreme order that we find in our surroundings. That is what 'theism' is about";

"While the conscious and unconscious objects of the world co-exist with God, they are sustained by Him and He receives them back on dissolution";

"Absolute as well as immanent, He is the un-caused cause and unmoved mover";

"Thus, from a study of the universe with its ordered growth and plan, we infer the reality of an omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent God";

["The godless say that this universe, including this world, came about by 'chance'! They also say that the all form of life found on this earth arose by chance when conditions favorable to their existence arose. To think that the 'mindless' generates 'mind' is as absurd as thinking that a monkey given a typewriter and paper would write like a Kalidas!" -- Vidyanand Saraswati];

[This has become long enough for a single sitting! More will follow later -- MVS]

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka,

I have re-iterated many a times in all relevant threads that, Theist folks are many who indulge in all unethical and immoral activities and still carry on with their belief in God and do all sort of spiritual activities, thinking, their all knowing personal GOD will still protect them and assist them in their attempts to earn/accumulate money. Such folks are not working towards spiritual enhancement in right spirit. They are just deluded that their spiritual activities makes sense. They are not bothered about understanding of the scriptures either by self reading or preaching by scholars. The charity they do out of their unscrupulous business activities, with their true sense of empathy and compassion towards underprivileged folks may help them to be a refined person to some extent in their next birth.

Above types of theist folks are in millions from any religion and from any country.

Presence of these folks does not make the truth, untruth.


Presence of plenty of dirty politicians does not make the subject/concept of politics itself dirty/irrelevant/destructive. Immoral and unethical folks makes the politics a sewage.

Presence of plenty of corrupted Government officials/authorities does not make the subject/concept of Governance and administration itself dirty/irrelevant/destructive. Corrupted and immoral officials make governance/administration stinking.

Presence of plenty of unethical/immoral business folks does not make the subject/concept of Business itself dirty/irrelevant/destructive. Greedy and filthy folks indulge in unethical business dealings. As well come up with many immoral/unethical/anti human/anti social business strategies/concepts.

People are many who manipulate with the PUREST for their ulterior motives. That does not make the Purest itself IMPURE.

Dear Ravi:

As usual you and other Believers use lots of nice words: Pure, Truth, Moral, Spiritual Sense etc. etc.

In the final analysis, everyone has their Right to follow what he/she thinks to be USEFUL to their psychological needs. For Atheist like me, this is what is very clear:

1. The IDEA of SNA = Human-like "HE or SHE" God expects PPB and doles out favors to the devotees or worshipers.

2. The Worshipers can do anything good and bad. Many politicians, business people, ordinary citizens all engage in deliberate unscrupulous dealings with a view to nullify their SINS by engaging in PPB, as approved by the Scriptures, as they understand it.

3. So, we have Religious FATALISM among some portion of our Indian Society (I call as India91%), we have Religious FANATICISM in another faction (all the Fundamentalists are engaged in hurting each other - recall what Islamists want to do for the Saffron Brigade, etc. etc. and vice versa), yet another faction involved in massive corruption and fraud (many politicians and business people).

India - the Land of Gods, Spirits, Ghosts and Religions - is suffering from Orthodoxy of the Past Traditions, Fear and Superstitions.

Then, we have some you - the Purists who are chasing the Maya - the ILLUSION, the FANTASY and FICTION.

Good going.

Atheists are having fun watching you all!

Cheers.

 

[renuka]

Dear sir,

I do not agree with "Pray not, for no one listens to your prayer;"

God listens our prayers. I experienced in my life. If prayers are not listen then how pal dinakaran is so popular?

regards,
S. Ramanathan

I read a quote somewhere before that said:

God listens to our prayers but sometimes the answer to our prayer is No.

 

[renuka]

I have the faintest idea why its thought that China is mainly Atheist and never pray to God.
There is a long list of Chinese deities worshiped by Chinese.

Chinese God for today is ;

Chinese God of Prosperity - Cai Shen | Ancient Chinese Culture

 

[renuka]

Chinese God of Death

[h=1]YEN-LO-WANGAlso known as BAO-YAN-LUO, YAN-LUO-WANG, YANLUO-WANG, YENG-WANG-YEH
[/h]

[h=2]The God of Death and Ruler of the Fifth Court ofFENG-DU, the Chinese Hell.
[/h]The Chinese version of YAMA, he was originally King of the First Court of Hell, but Heaven accused him of undue leniency. Far too many souls were crossing the Golden Bridge to Heaven and the place was getting crowded.



To prevent spiritual overpopulation, the JADE-EMPEROR put QIN-GUANG-WANG in charge of Judgment and assigned YEN-LO-WANG to the Fifth Hell of Wailing, Gouging and Boiling. Once there he developed a real relish for making souls miserable, so everyone was happy again. Except the souls, of course.

As a God of some importance, YEN-LO-WANG is far more than just a dealer of boiling oil. He rules over the whole of FENG-DU and has a team of deadly assistants. His filing system contains the records of every soul, complete with their allotted death date. MONKEY once paid him a visit and wreaked havoc, but we imagine security has been tightened up since then.
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[Jaykay767]

There is a theory going rounds in western circles (not proven still), that if you want something strong enough, the universe/ether will come together to make this happen !. Many such cases in real life are being studied by some researchers.

Logic of prayers are to focus your mind & request God/Universe to make things happen for you, solve your problems etc.. !.

so before people go around saying "what is the point of doing all this", please do a study, & then make your opinions.
so the Vedas may get proved right again !!

 

[Jaykay767]

I have the faintest idea why its thought that China is mainly Atheist and never pray to God.
There is a long list of Chinese deities worshiped by Chinese.

Chinese God for today is ;

Chinese God of Prosperity - Cai Shen | Ancient Chinese Culture

Hi Renuka,

The ancient Greek, Chinese gods & stories have their origins in the egyptian/dravidian gods. so you will see a lot of resemblance here. Chola kings took the vedas, ramyana, etc., to south east asia & it is still followed in many places there. There are stories of Indian princess marrying the Chinese Kings, so that had historical trading & cultural links.

Buddism spread there & remained a major religion till the communist took over. they came with the Atheist philosophy !!

Cheers,
JK

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi:


India - the Land of Gods, Spirits, Ghosts and Religions - is suffering from Orthodoxy of the Past Traditions, Fear and Superstitions.



Atheists are having fun watching you all!

Cheers.

Shri Yamaka

India is no more under the grip of false orthodoxy as you believe. If you really believe this, I am really surprised.

If India, the land of Gods, Spirits, Ghosts and Religions is continuously under the grip of Orthodoxy of the past traditions, fear and superstitions, you can not find absolute corruption dancing on her head.


Indian is suffering because people in power and authority have gone against the sense of righteousness and chastity. Have gone against the principles of "Live and let Live". Because these people have developed belief in living a realistic life of accomplishment by hook or crook, accepting the natural qualities of Genes - "The Fittest Survive" and ignoring their consciousness, that can clearly show them how wrong are they. They are those who wants to make fast bucks, before they die and live a luxurious life during the ONLY LIFE of the present, doesn't matter whom and how many people they are leaving with pains and sufferings, in their journey towards personal success.

Whenever they could reckon their inner consciousness, they are ashamed of themselves with their guilty consciousness and get into spirituality, believing, their personal GOD will spare them totally and let them go Scot Free ever.


They are hypocrites. Neither they could follow the principles of Religion/spirituality that instills moral values nor they could accept Atheism completely. They think that they are the smartest people, taking a Middle Path. The middle path that would facilitate them with personal success by hook or crook as well as personal protection by their merciful personal God.

At Least, India- The land of God and Spirituality could generate 1000s of philanthropists from a group of such hypocritical folks and serving underprivileged folks of her, who all are locked inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty by the filthy Ruling Class.




Nice that Atheists are having fun watching we all Theists. Continue waiting and watching so that Atheist can have some enlightenment, does not matter if they accept in public or not .