The gothram of a child

[prasad1]

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We have been invited to a "poonal" at the temple.
This is a real story not a hindi movie.
A Tamil Iyangar girl from North India came to usa 20 years ago. She married a Tamil Iyangar boy from NY. The marriage failed and she got a divorce.
After 5 years she wanted a child. She did not adopt, she did not want to get remarried.
So she chose to have artificial insemination to get pregnant. She did not want an Indian donor sperm, instead she chose an Anglo sexton (white, with blond hair) donor sperm.
The child is almost white, and this single mother is raising it. She and the grand parents and the extended family is celebrating the poonal on a sunday at 5:00pm at the temple.

I am not a traditionalist, and i believe I am moderate in my outlook, but even to me this seems so funny at so many level.
Poonal for this child? really, what gothram, what lineage.
Why the muhurtham in rahu kalam?

I can not wait for the function.

 

[Anand Manohar]

Dear Prasad Ji

You forgot to mention that it is Dakshinayinam too !

My suggestion, in all fairness, and the Mother's family being Vaishnavites " Narayana Gotram " .
After all, a child is a ' God Given ' Gift.

I have been witness to several people belonging to ' Caste Hindus ' who, while doing sankalpam, give their Names,
Star, Raasi and Gothram as ' Siva Gothram ', in Temples.

To the best of my knowledge neither Pillaiyar nor Murugan ever had offspring, or lineage - yet a Shiva Gotram exists.

" Waqt Se Samjhotha Karne Ka Hai " .

But don't forget to take some raw rice - to be given as Daanam, when the boy says
" Bhavathi Bhikshaam Dehi ".

Wishing you a very "Happy Brahmopadesam "

Yay Yem

 

[renuka]

We have been invited to a "poonal" at the temple.
This is a real story not a hindi movie.
A Tamil Iyangar girl from North India came to usa 20 years ago. She married a Tamil Iyangar boy from NY. The marriage failed and she got a divorce.
After 5 years she wanted a child. She did not adopt, she did not want to get remarried.
So she chose to have artificial insemination to get pregnant. She did not want an Indian donor sperm, instead she chose an Anglo sexton (white, with blond hair) donor sperm.
The child is almost white, and this single mother is raising it. She and the grand parents and the extended family is celebrating the poonal on a sunday at 5:00pm at the temple.

I am not a traditionalist, and i believe I am moderate in my outlook, but even to me this seems so funny at so many level.
Poonal for this child? really, what gothram, what lineage.
Why the muhurtham in rahu kalam?

I can not wait for the function.

Dear Prasad ji,

I am no traditionalist either but the child can be made to be "adopted religiously" by the maternal grandfather and be given his Gotra.( in other words the child's mother's pre marriage Gotra..frankly I do not believe that a woman's Gotra should change after marriage cos DNA does not change..This is my personal opinion and not to run down culture and tradition)

I feel this lady only wanted to divorce the "Indian mindset" from her act of opting Anglo Saxon donor sperm but she still loves her religion and culture.

Wish the best for this child.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Sri Prasad,

Mother of this child seems to be interested in getting her child initiated as a Brahmachari.
We should go to the purpose of wearing Yagnopaveetham.


Let us see what the Yagnopaveetha Sangalpam says:
After declaring the Samvatsarm, Ayanam, Ruthu,Masam, Paksham, Thithi, Day, Nakshatram, Yogam, Karanam etc,
it says the purpose of wearing the Yagnopaveetham in the following words:

Sri Bhagavathagnaya Sriman Narayana preethyartham, Chrowtha smartha vidhi vihitha nithya karma anushtana yogyadha sidhyartham Brahma thejaha Abhiviruthiyartham Yagnopaveetha dharanam karishye.

This is in simple Sanskrit, I hope will be understood by all. Thus the purpose of wearing Yagnopaveetham is to bestow
the right to follow and perform Nithya Karma Anushtanam as enunciated by shruthi (vedas).

If some one is earnestly interested in putting his/her son in Vedic studies, let he/she follow the rituals as per the custom. She can adopt her Gothra or the Gothra of the Acharya.

There are instances where the name of the Acharya or his Gothra was adopted by the students.

My best wishes to the Brahmachari,

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.

 

[renuka]

One more point to remember is the story of Sathyakama son of Jabala.

He had no idea who his father was and he was not denied study of Vedas.

 

[Raji Ram]

The only daughter of Ram's friend married an American, a few years back. There were twelve sAsthirigaLs on stage

to perform the wedding, including Nandhi and other ceremonies. The groom was renamed Chiranjeevi. Shankar Sarma (!)

with proper nAmakaraNa manthrAs and also had 'BrahmObathesam', wore pooNal before the marriage was conducted!

Now a days, it is 'sougariyaththukku sAsthram'! So the sAsthrigaL of your friend should be knowing the formalities needed
for this function very well! :decision:

P.S: We celebrated the vaLaikAppu and seematham for Sowbagyavathi. Jessica Arvind in our close family circle, in 2009,

in the U S of A! :thumb:

 

[prasad1]

I do not believe in the lineage theory of Gothram.
I believe gothram, kulam, elc have served their purpose and now a burden for us.
In north India some families goes to their family pandith and he ascribes them a gothra. In ISKON every new convert gets a gothra assigned.
Gothra was given importance due to Panini classifying it, there is no vadic legitimacy.


There were originally 7 system of schools, propagated by 7 rishis of Septarisi. Now in India at least 49 Gothras are claimed in upper class and thousands more in other classes. In addition jatis, and kulum is wrongly quoted as gothram.
In Andhra temples if you do not know the pujari will assign you Siva, visnu, or Naga gothram.

I agree with Mr. Anand Manohar ji. Brahmanyan ji and other's view.

I posted the thread, because the situation was so modern. We have to adapt to the changing morals. and accepted norms.
The timing of the ceremony was also peculiar to say the least.

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear prasad !
every body is doing rituals for fanfare sake and not doing it with its tathpariyam .they want to show wealth condition and the purpose for which it is set is made to vanish in the wind .anything done with atmartham will be good instead of false intentions.it is like sitting in a bull-cart (maattu vandi )and driven by motor car. you loose the comport of a car as well the joy of cart drive
guruvayurappan

 

[sarang]

double whammy!
when someone wants to do a samskara, it is because he still has a trace of faith and vasana; there is no compulsion to it. i am glad that a large number of non practicing and indifferent desis or nri or pio have seen the value and significance of the vedic life and samskaras and are keenly practicing at the levels they can.

we should encourage those souls still not lost irrevocably. even children of so-so parents have respect for rituals and karmas. there is no fear of a total loss as some lost souls want. there is a decent demand for the books and dvds for sandhya and tarpanam.

ostentation in any activity or celebration is a national malaise; doing poonal ceremony at any age, or just before marriage will surely instil in the boy a sense of belonging to the tradition. let us hope that the spark will one day gloe in intensity and effulgence.

dear prasad !
every body is doing rituals for fanfare sake and not doing it with its tathpariyam .they want to show wealth condition and the purpose for which it is set is made to vanish in the wind .anything done with atmartham will be good instead of false intentions.it is like sitting in a bull-cart (maattu vandi )and driven by motor car. you loose the comport of a car as well the joy of cart drive
guruvayurappan

 

[Raji Ram]

In the thread Upanayanam we discussed about the modern way of performing upnayanam. Sri. Vikraman has given a vivid

description of the modern way of performing it! But many posts are in Tamil.

As Guru Sir says, most of the people perform the ceremony only to show off their status to their friends and relatives! :high5:

 

[Raji Ram]

Dear Prasad Sir,

I guess the upanayanam is fixed for this Sunday. We are awaiting your comments on the function.

We wish all the best to the kid who will soon become a brahmachAri! :thumb:

 

[BostonSankara]

For what it is worth my Sivachariar friends generally refer to my as coming from Shiva Gotthram during sankalpam.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

She can just do what her mind says. There is no compulsion to wear poonal. I am afraid the person is both quizzical and whimsical. She cannot seek partner to her mind. And yet she can walk upside down with others' benign indulgence. Like elements and planets things are common for all and sundry. I pray the lady gets peace of mind and blessings from Him.

 

[avatar]

Personally, threads like these disturbs my mental peace. I was thinking along the lines of knowing what gothram actually means and discussion along the lines of that. But by accident I ran into this discussion. I am not posting to argue anything here but please take my words lightly and please don't spring upon me like lions jumping on their prey. I am just expressing my views based on my knowledge on reality. If you feel my knowledge on reality is wrong then so be it I will not argue upon it. I just feel disturbed looking at the silliness of the issue and why people even discuss this issue. But its just my thought and all topics are open to discuss here and that is the way it should be and all should be allowed to post their views.

First of all, a female married a male strictly on caste basis and it broke. I do not know the financial status of the groom but I suppose it should be good since he was in the US, living in NY unlike in India where few marriages break due to financial instability. The reason why the marriage broke should be a different one (extramarital relations on the male side or the female side). If that female is that good strictly adhering to cultural values a normal male would never divorce such a female. I also do not accept how a girl in US could have lived for five years without having intimate relationship with any male. This is just based on my knowledge on present day life and why the reason she goes for artificial insemination and spend dollars on that procedure. The cost of each attempt is only $300 to$500, but it takes many attempts. The probability of a single attempt is very low. People go for it and the doctors themselves advice to go for it mostly in the case of infertility for results. For any other case it would cost too much and the health of that child is compromised so doctors do not advice them unless extremely necessary. I am not denying the story but it just seems vague and disturbing to me. Anyone else can take this story for real but I do not trust this unless it is done for getting publicity for some media story.

All the story seems so vague to me, please don't mistake I am making fun of it or ridiculing it, but I just analyzed it based on my knowledge. I also apologize if it has hurt any feelings of anyone, please remove this post if so. If members want to insult me for what I have posted also I am not going to insult them in return. Please go ahead. But I do not want to argue and keep filling the pages.

Thanks and Regards.

 

[Raji Ram]

For what it is worth my Sivachariar friends generally refer to my as coming from Shiva Gotthram during sankalpam.

Good to see you back!

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Avatar,
You are rude to say the least, and that being very kind to you.
If you think one should post the name of the girl and child with date and time, you are missing some gray matter on top.
The story has not been embellished in any way. If you believe or not does not make any difference to me. I did not question your beliefs, I know I do not have same conviction as your thread.
For a person who beliefs in whole lot of mumbo jumbo, your so called "reality" is an alternate reality.
So before jumping to conclusion take a moment.

 

[prasad1]

Good to see you back!

Yes Sankara, it has been long time.

 

[BostonSankara]

Thank you both for the welcome!

 

[avatar]

Mr. Avatar,
You are rude to say the least, and that being very kind to you.
If you think one should post the name of the girl and child with date and time, you are missing some gray matter on top.
The story has not been embellished in any way. If you believe or not does not make any difference to me. I did not question your beliefs, I know I do not have same conviction as your thread.
For a person who beliefs in whole lot of mumbo jumbo, your so called "reality" is an alternate reality.
So before jumping to conclusion take a moment.

Good Day,

I am not here to start an argument and so whether it is reality or alternate reality I am not bothered. I am least emotionally sensitive to any trolling and insulting messages (also any kind hearted messages).

It is your wish to post the name of the child or the details I did not ask you to do that. Neither did I ask anyone to discredit you. I have been through a lot of stories and I always just don't take any stories like this for 100 percent genuine (like Ramayana or Mahabharatha) since it will not do good to me in any means. Please understand.

With that said I am refraining from reading or posting any more on this thread. If you feel your thread has been discredited, please excuse me and I will not post anymore as said.

Have a Great Day.

Regards.

 

[suraju06]

Dear avtar,

your post # 14 for reference:

I understand what you say. There are freaks in every society and there are exceptions to every rule. The story narrated by prasad is one such exception. I had in my neighbourhood a woman who had a funny view of cleanliness. She would go and take bath if she sees any one spitting. It is enough to drive her to the bathroom if she hears the sound "thooo" from some one walking on the street whom she may not have even seen. I think this is a kind of disease. I am sure this story too will be unbelievable to you. But all freaks are like this. So, dear friend, the issue is not whether the story is true or not. So please do not allow it to get into you and disturb you at a deep level. The girl of the story, a freak that she is, lost her husband for whatever reason and perhaps decided to take revenge on him and perhaps the society he represented. So going for artificial insemination with semen of a European and getting a child was perhaps, her way of giving it back to her ex hubby. Society lives with and tolerates every exception including a upanayanam to the child born from this kind of .........what do you call this, a relationship? or a production process? Society will accept that child and give him a poonool too. I sympathise with that mother because she has not only lost her husband but missed a whole lot of other things small and big which she could have got through a very normal process-not the production process. I am not conservative. But this is something else.

Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

To me this case is too strange and peculiar!!!!!! I mean, the Mother choosing to do upanayanam to her child formed out of Alien Gene and dwelling with her son in America.


1) There are some Brahmins who want to get rid of their poonal and overall identity as a Brahmin in all the possible ways and means.

2) There are many Brahmins in India who all have started to attain greater realizations and throwing away the poonal so as to match with the present modern and so called realistic trend.

In such an advancing stage, I fail to understand what exactly the mother is expecting from her child? What conducive environment she has planned and determined to sustain so that the child's upanayanam can make true sense to the child?

Will the child could like or be expected by mother to put on poonal ever? Or only until his teenage begins, from when he would be qualified to have great socializing and had to throw it away to not to feel embarrassed between his multi-cultured male and female friends in America?


If the mother feels that even any Indian sperm would be useless, meaningless and shameful/disgusting due her bitter experiences, what greatness or meaningfulness she can be "sure" about by getting hers mixed with Alien sperm,offering a complicated DNA to a child, doing Upanayanam to him and making him survive ever in America as an American?

This function to me, seem to be an utter show off OR some sort of peculiarity/abnormalcy in her thinking. To me, it only shows her unclear and confused mind.

During those by gone eras, those were the great people who took Brahmacharayam, having been offered upanayanam and systematic vedic learning and living style, to be considered as same as Brahmin or even much better then a common Brahmin. Those people lived up to it.

In this present world where all Brahmins are called Brahmins only by their birth through their Brahmin parents and are continuing to follow some living style, tradition and values to the best of one's ability and genuine circumstances, A child born through a Brahmin mother and a Non-Brahmin father never belong to a Brahmin community . In such a case, don't know how she could imagine that such child of hers can be considered a Brahmin? Not just that, how can she be rest assured that the Child will not undergo lots of confusions, disturbances, disappointment, mockery etc..etc as he would keep growing?


It pains me when I see people doing some crazy and stupid things in the name of independency, revolutionary thoughts, boldness, smartness and broad-mindedness.


I can only feel that, the child is made a scape goat by his stupid mother due to her psychic abnormalcy. May the God give right thoughts and ideologies to the mother and give peace and safety to this innocent child.

 

[tks]

Personally, threads like these disturbs my mental peace. I was thinking along the lines of knowing what gothram actually means and discussion along the lines of that. But by accident I ran into this discussion. I am not posting to argue anything here but please take my words lightly and please don't spring upon me like lions jumping on their prey. I am just expressing my views based on my knowledge on reality. If you feel my knowledge on reality is wrong then so be it I will not argue upon it. I just feel disturbed looking at the silliness of the issue and why people even discuss this issue. But its just my thought and all topics are open to discuss here and that is the way it should be and all should be allowed to post their views.

First of all, a female married a male strictly on caste basis and it broke. I do not know the financial status of the groom but I suppose it should be good since he was in the US, living in NY unlike in India where few marriages break due to financial instability. The reason why the marriage broke should be a different one (extramarital relations on the male side or the female side). If that female is that good strictly adhering to cultural values a normal male would never divorce such a female. I also do not accept how a girl in US could have lived for five years without having intimate relationship with any male. This is just based on my knowledge on present day life and why the reason she goes for artificial insemination and spend dollars on that procedure. The cost of each attempt is only $300 to$500, but it takes many attempts. The probability of a single attempt is very low. People go for it and the doctors themselves advice to go for it mostly in the case of infertility for results. For any other case it would cost too much and the health of that child is compromised so doctors do not advice them unless extremely necessary. I am not denying the story but it just seems vague and disturbing to me. Anyone else can take this story for real but I do not trust this unless it is done for getting publicity for some media story.

All the story seems so vague to me, please don't mistake I am making fun of it or ridiculing it, but I just analyzed it based on my knowledge. I also apologize if it has hurt any feelings of anyone, please remove this post if so. If members want to insult me for what I have posted also I am not going to insult them in return. Please go ahead. But I do not want to argue and keep filling the pages.

Thanks and Regards.

The more interesting aspect of your post in my view is why you are disturbed by this? What aspect of the story causes disturbance and why? Even if it is fiction (it does not matter for the sake of my question) what belief system you have that has been challenged by the events as described. Without apologies I hope you will share

 

[BostonSankara]

I find the scenario fascinating. I am at a loss as to why there is speculation about her reasoning to choose a non-indian donor. Had the donor been of Indian decent all of these things would still be an issue. Setting aside the speculation regarding her intent on choosing said genetic stock many orthodox TB's would still find this heresy unless the background of the father was known.

 

[tks]

Sri Prasad ji

I hope you will write after you attend the function. A while ago I read a thread (since I am not a regular visitor here) by Sri Vikrama about a Upanayanam function he attended.

If the mother and the boy (receiving the Brahmopadesham) are both very sincere that will be wonderful to know.

If this is another one for show then that is nothing new since most such functions have been done for all the wrong reasons (which is nothing new)

 

[prasad1]

I find the scenario fascinating. I am at a loss as to why there is speculation about her reasoning to choose a non-indian donor. Had the donor been of Indian decent all of these things would still be an issue. Setting aside the speculation regarding her intent on choosing said genetic stock many orthodox TB's would still find this heresy unless the background of the father was known.

Mr. Shankara,
To me traditions are what we make it to be. In your thread "what are we protecting" I wrote my sentiment. I have no problem with any of the new variations of traditions. I just want people who are so "traditionalist" that they would not let you get Upanayanam done to your family, see that traditions change with place and times.

There is always a squeamish feeling, when a new norm is created.