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The gothram of a child

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Sri Prasad ji

I hope you will write after you attend the function. A while ago I read a thread (since I am not a regular visitor here) by Sri Vikrama about a Upanayanam function he attended.

If the mother and the boy (receiving the Brahmopadesham) are both very sincere that will be wonderful to know.

If this is another one for show then that is nothing new since most such functions have been done for all the wrong reasons (which is nothing new)

In next couple of hours I would know about the mode of the function. I am also intrigued by this priest for choosing (or agreeing) to the time chosen.
 
None of temple priests were invited. The function was held in the community center of the hall and the temple was not included.
The person performing was an Iyangar with Namam and all. But I did not hear a single slokam that I knew.
They did Sudershana Homam.
Then a small hair was clipped using scissors.
Then they put the poonal, and tied a piece of dear skin to the poonal.
Then the child was taught the Gãyathri Manthra by the priest.
This is followed by the child asking for alms of rice from his mother and other women.
Then they chanted Sahasranamam.
The assembled guest were asked to stand. and the kid did a namaskaram to all assembled guest. We congratulated the child and socialized.


We did typical brahmin thing had a good south Indian dinner.

In the words of Mr. tks:
If this is another one for show. I suppose.
I am no position to judge.
 
Personally, threads like these disturbs my mental peace. I was thinking along the lines of knowing what gothram actually means and discussion along the lines of that. But by accident I ran into this discussion. I am not posting to argue anything here but please take my words lightly and please don't spring upon me like lions jumping on their prey. I am just expressing my views based on my knowledge on reality. If you feel my knowledge on reality is wrong then so be it I will not argue upon it. I just feel disturbed looking at the silliness of the issue and why people even discuss this issue. But its just my thought and all topics are open to discuss here and that is the way it should be and all should be allowed to post their views.

First of all, a female married a male strictly on caste basis and it broke. I do not know the financial status of the groom but I suppose it should be good since he was in the US, living in NY unlike in India where few marriages break due to financial instability. The reason why the marriage broke should be a different one (extramarital relations on the male side or the female side). If that female is that good strictly adhering to cultural values a normal male would never divorce such a female. I also do not accept how a girl in US could have lived for five years without having intimate relationship with any male. This is just based on my knowledge on present day life and why the reason she goes for artificial insemination and spend dollars on that procedure. The cost of each attempt is only $300 to$500, but it takes many attempts. The probability of a single attempt is very low. People go for it and the doctors themselves advice to go for it mostly in the case of infertility for results. For any other case it would cost too much and the health of that child is compromised so doctors do not advice them unless extremely necessary. I am not denying the story but it just seems vague and disturbing to me. Anyone else can take this story for real but I do not trust this unless it is done for getting publicity for some media story.

All the story seems so vague to me, please don't mistake I am making fun of it or ridiculing it, but I just analyzed it based on my knowledge. I also apologize if it has hurt any feelings of anyone, please remove this post if so. If members want to insult me for what I have posted also I am not going to insult them in return. Please go ahead. But I do not want to argue and keep filling the pages.

Thanks and Regards.

Dear Avatar,

I feel basically it is not fair that anyone of us should speculate her character.
None of us know her and none of us know the real reason why her marriage broke down.

I basically do not really even want to know if the child was conceived through artificial insemination or by any other means..the most important fact is she a mother who carried a child through out gestation and now initiating her child into the right path.

Let us all remember the story of Sathyakama son of Jabala here.

No one knows the father of Sathyakama and yet he attained perfection.

Sage Gautama obviously did not have any problems with Sathyakama and held Jabala with high regard for giving birth to son like Sathyakama.

Gautama never judged the actions of Jabala and since none of us come near Gautama I think we should not even hint about the character of a woman we do not really even know.

I hope you don't misunderstand my post.
 
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To me this case is too strange and peculiar!!!!!! I mean, the Mother choosing to do upanayanam to her child formed out of Alien Gene and dwelling with her son in America.


Alien gene?

Anglo Saxons are still very much human.

The child too is human and not some Predalien( Predator Vs Alien Hybrid)
 
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I am seeing highly judgmental posts here calling the woman confused,stupid,'Psychic' abnormalcy,speculating her character etc.

I can't help remembering this line:

"He that is without sin cast the first stone"
 
All-

Now that Sri Prasad has attended the function and described his experience I would like to share my thoughts.

- It appears to be a function like any other in USA. There are a few traditional events but many are done as a way of asserting identity. I still applaud the mother for arranging the event even if the proceedings did not seem to follow traditions.

- My biggest surprise in this thread was what came across as narrow minded and extreme judgement of the mother.

I never knew anyone who was divorced in India while growing up. Since living in USA for several decades I obviously know many divorcees including a few from India. In my limited knowledge, I know that no one looks forward to a divorce and even if I knew many facts I would not judge the character of the parties involved. One can comment on the behaviour but character is something else.

Artificial insemination to bear a child is not a big thing these days. I know a couple (Americans) who are my close friends and 25 years ago they chose to have two babies one after another using a surrogate mother. The children have grown extremely well and my friends are fortunate to have a wonderful family. The children who are grown up now even contacted the birth mother & family (and she is married with children before deciding to become surrogate mother). The birth mother doing it for money was a shocker then but things have turned out harmonious. I am happy she did that for the sake of my friends.

Many birth-based brahmins - in my limited exposure - are hypocrites. They think they are exclusive without attempting to earn the right to call themselves by a sanskrit name whose meaning is very different from their behaviour.

I recently met a 44 year old lady from Seattle who had a very rough life in terms of relationships. She used to be a Mormon and now she is spending most of her time (besides her career to earn a living) in learning Vedanta, chanting slokas and learning Sanskrit. She seems to have mastered teachings of Tattvabodha, Panchadashi, and many of the Upanishads since we chatted about some of these topics. She is trying to live a life of a Karma yogi by understanding Bhagavad Gita. Such people will end up being the Guna Brahmins of 21st century in my view.

We need not denigrate the the sperm of the donor - so what if he was white - who cares, why should anyone care?

If you are bothered by the story you may want to re-examine your belief system since I am sure that belief system is a source of discomfort in other areas of your life too..

Peace
 
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Mr. tks,
You are right. The color of the sperm doner should not matter. To me it was a surprise as I still have some lingering "TB values'.
May be I was laughing at my own old fashioned idea, and did not come out right.
 
Dear Sri.prasad, Greetings.

I am not a traditionalist, and i believe I am moderate in my outlook, but even to me this seems so funny at so many level.
Poonal for this child? really, what gothram, what lineage.
Why the muhurtham in rahu kalam?

I am assuming here. There is a very good possibility, that the mother is very bitter due to her experiences. Usually nobody choose to go through a divorce. Chances are, divorce may have been shoved down her throat by few heartless people. Quite possible, she had a very bitter resolve against all tradionalists. I know one or two very personally. It is quite possible she wanted to show someone she could do it; and chose a 'non-Indian' insemination. My assumption is based on your indication that the function was timed during 'Rahu Kalam'; but just like any other assumptions, this could be wrong.

Some of the posts in this thread are quite disturbing. This thread is all about the child's upanayanam and Gothram etc. It has nothing to do with the mother of the child. Before passing any judgement against that lady, we have to think about our own community. Can our community widen their thinking further? Can our community become more acceptive? Can our community accept there can be persons who are not quite traditionalists? Personally I said 'yes' to every question. this is despite the fact, most persons would not even consider me as a Tamil Brahmin person.

So, who taught the 'Gayathri mantra' to the child? Usually father does it. Did the mother do it? or the Iyengar did it in the place of 'guru'? I have a feeling, that lady may have chosen the gothram of her father ( I request Sri. Prasad to confirm this, please).

What is so important about Gothram? Yes, it shows the heritage. My question is, what happens in the heritage is not known? What if both parents are not known?

If we believe in God, God is common for everyone. God would not isolate one particular caste or creed for blessing. Blessing may be awarded based on one's good deeds. One may keep saying it is good karma to get the birth as a brahmin; but it is not due to bad karma if one did not get a birth in the brahmin caste.

If we can treat everyone nicely without any judgement, it would be very nice.

Cheers!
 

Though each individual is branded by a caste and religion, that person has the right to either follow or refuse to follow the

customs and traditions set for that caste and religion. Most of the religious functions only display the money power and show

the huge circle of relatives and friends! Those who take part in any such functions have no right to ask whether the traditions

are followed later on. The boy receiving the BrahmOpadesam will do the nithya karmAs as a brahmachAri only if he wishes!

Similarly, those who attend the wedding of a couple can not question them if they wish to separate! Where did the promises

made during 'saptapadi' vanish? The world is changing and we have to accept whatever others do and :tape: !!
P.S: When I advised a person in our near family circle not to go for a divorce, his family started treating me as their enemy!
:fish:
 
Frankly speaking I think I know now why this woman chose Anglo Saxon sperm donor.
I guess she did not want highly judgmental DNA in her off spring.
 
The word Caste was coined by people who invaded India. For etymology see for example
Online Etymology Dictionary

The word Hindus is also name assigned by visitors/invaders.

Hindus have adopted those definitions and caste stands for everything that represents the weakness of human beings in India.

What we have from Vedic times is a Varna (classification based on nature of work) and Ashrama (Brahmachari, Grahastha ...) In an abundance mindset we had a system of government that is not based on competition but excellence.

Excellence is achieved by perfecting a trade over life time and Moksha is not denied to anyone. In fact the 63 Nayanmargal who are iconized in our Siva temples are from all kinds of varna.

In today's world we do not have practices of Varnashrama. However we can have Guna based identification. If one is predominantly Satvic and a bit of Rajasic and Traces of Tamasic qualities we could say such a person is a Guna-Brahmana.

Birth based Brahmana is an identification just for one's ego or to suffer under the rule of non-brahmins in some places.

A baby is born into the world in this story and is raised to be a Hindu child (somewhat). Neither the boy who is now an adult , nor the mother are any better off than any of the readers here in my humble view.

Regardless of our initial reaction, let us all bless the boy and hope that one day he appreciates the significance of ceremony. Let us hope that this event becomes a stepping stone for his true education and maturity one day.
 
hi
now a days UPANANAYANAM is another show off....nobody can guarantee abt brahmopadesam.....very rarely do sandhyavandanam

daily in our younger generation.....the marriage is going to be just another ritual very soon.....we have to fix divorce date before wedding

date....the world is changing very faster.....education/money is more criteria for everything.....its unavoidable.....living

together is the only option going to be happen....nobody can blame....இது காலத்தின் கோலம்.....
 
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.....the marriage is going to be just another ritual very soon.....we have to fix divorce date before wedding date.........
Dear TBS Sir,

You sound like my advocate brother in law! He also says the same words!! :)

He also adds, "Now a days, you can't guarantee your own children!"
icon4.png
 
Dear TBS Sir,

You sound like my advocate brother in law! He also says the same words!! :)

He also adds, "Now a days, you can't guarantee your own children!"
icon4.png
hi
like single mother in USA....no guarantee for dad....this is small story....once i visited my son's back to school night in USA...

parents are invited...i went to school with my wife/son too...i saw many ladies with kids in school...rarely only

one or 2 gents in my son's class room....then i asked my wife that parents are invited...why kids dads not coming to school.?..

the programme was after 6.00pm....just curiosity...my wife told me that here single moms more in USA....so many kids are

living with their moms with out dad.... SO I THOUGHT THAT MATERNITY IS CERTAINITY....PATERNITY IS PROBABILITY...

MOTHER IS SURE... FATHER IS NOT SURE....
 
TKS in #32:

My biggest surprise in this thread was what came across as narrow minded and extreme judgement of the mother. One can comment on the behaviour but character is something else.

I think people here have given only their views on the basis of the facts as they were presented. They were only trying to interpret the data given. We need not call it being judgmental. Rather to say that “what came across as narrow minded and extreme judgement of the mother” is being judgmental about the people here. Members here do not know the mother or her character and so can have nothing against her.

Many birth-based brahmins - in my limited exposure - are hypocrites. They think they are exclusive without attempting to earn the right to call themselves by a sanskrit name whose meaning is very different from their behaviour
.

Being a birth-based Brahmin only means that you are endowed with the raw material. How you make use of it to produce an end product depends on you, your circumstances, your surroundings, your food, your acquired value system and your society. So whom do we blame?

……. a 44 year old lady from Seattle who had a very rough life in terms of relationships….. now she is spending most of her time (besides her career to earn a living) in learning Vedanta, chanting slokas and learning Sanskrit. She seems to have mastered teachings of Tattvabodha, Panchadashi, and many of the Upanishads…… She is trying to live a life of a Karma yogi by understanding Bhagavad Gita. Such people will end up being the Guna Brahmins of 21st century in my view.

Do you seriously think this is what a true guna Brahmin ought to do?

We need not denigrate the sperm of the donor - so what if he was white - who cares, why should anyone care?

Yes. who is bothered. But the way a mother manipulated every one-- from the donor’s sperm to the Iyengars who did the homam to the crowd of invitees to the upanayanam-- deserves a critical appraisal and that is what is done here I think.



Tks in #37:

The word Hindus is also name assigned by visitors/invaders.

Yes the label was designed by the invader. But the basic entity identified by that label was already existing for centuties.

Birth based Brahmana is an identification just for one's ego.

If being aware of one’s heritage and culture means being egotistic, yes.
 
Raghy in #34:

It is quite possible she wanted to show someone she could do it; and chose a 'non-Indian' insemination. My assumption is based on your indication that the function was timed during 'Rahu Kalam'; but just like any other assumptions, this could be wrong.

With the same assumptions, the way the mother manipulated everything-a helpless anglo-saxon sperm, artificial insemination, rahu kalam for upanayanam, an upanayanam conducted by “Iyengars” with sudarshana homam to boot, with many invitees etc., just to prove a point to some one, deserves a critical assessment.

Some of the posts in this thread are quite disturbing. This thread is all about the child's upanayanam and Gothram etc. It has nothing to do with the mother of the child. Before passing any judgement against that lady, we have to think about our own community.

People here are not judgmental about the mother. It was not an ordinary upanayanam of an ordinary child. Because of and only because of the mother’s background the child became a special child and its upanayanam also became a special one. Here the mother, her actions and the child are inseparable.

Can our community widen their thinking further? Can our community become more acceptive? Can our community accept there can be persons who are not quite traditionalists? Personally I said 'yes' to every question. this is despite the fact, most persons would not even consider me as a Tamil Brahmin person.

More acceptive of what? Acceptive of relentless attacks to wipe out? Acceptive of the persistent demand to forget glorious traditions and culture and take inferior and harmful “glittering cellophane packed” modern values? You may not ‘know’ the tradition and so you may not be a traditionalist. But that does not give you the freedom to call traditionalists stupid. The so called traditionalists are ready to wait indefinitely until you understand traditions and take a view.

If we believe in God, God is common for everyone. God would not isolate one particular caste or creed for blessing.

Which caste is claiming such a privilege?

If we can treat everyone nicely without any judgement, it would be very nice.
Yes with just one correction. …..nicely without any judgment where judgement is not called for, it would be………….
 
RR in #35:

. Most of the religious functions only display the money power and show
the huge circle of relatives and friends! Those who take part in any such functions have no right to ask whether the traditions are followed later on.

……Where did the promises made during 'saptapadi' vanish? The world is changing and we have to accept whatever others do

All celebrations happen in a context in a society – to show to the society that a certain contract has been entered into, a certain promise has been made, that a solemn commitment has been made etc.. The larger the circle of friends and relatives the larger the representation of the society. As for keeping the promise or commitment, it is purely an individual’s level of commitment that matters. We need not accept blindly what others do. We can be very choosy in such matters. The world allows a lot of space still.

Cheers.
 
Normally Gotra helps a person to identify his male lineage and is transferred down to
the family members automatically from father to sons. But in the case of daughters
this does not apply because once she gets married to some other gothra, her gothra
will be that of her husband. Now suppose the boy or son gets married to a girl
from the other gotra, the girls gothra will be that of the boy, to which family she
is wedded. She won't be able to continue her father's gothra. Gothra method
applys to men and not to the girls. In case a person has only girls, his gothra
terminates with him in that family. Perhaps, this was the reason, in those days,
elders preferred to have a male child in spite of the fact of having daughters. Vedic
and hindu society too emphasized about this fact, so that the tree of the family
continues and the Gotra of the father could continue without discontinuity.


Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 

I repeat:

The world is changing and we have to accept whatever others do.
Best way to live in :peace: and be :cool: is to :tape: !
 
Normally Gotra helps a person to identify his male lineage and is transferred down to
the family members automatically from father to sons. But in the case of daughters
this does not apply because once she gets married to some other gothra, her gothra
will be that of her husband. Now suppose the boy or son gets married to a girl
from the other gotra, the girls gothra will be that of the boy, to which family she
is wedded. She won't be able to continue her father's gothra. Gothra method
applys to men and not to the girls. In case a person has only girls, his gothra
terminates with him in that family. Perhaps, this was the reason, in those days,
elders preferred to have a male child in spite of the fact of having daughters. Vedic
and hindu society too emphasized about this fact, so that the tree of the family
continues and the Gotra of the father could continue without discontinuity.


Balasubramanian
Ambattur
hi
nice to hear these words...IDEALISM ALWAYS GOOD...BUT REALITY IS VERY DIFFERENT....NEXTGEN IS ENTIRELY DIFFERENT...

after some years...gothram will go away...many sagotra marriages going to be happen....many icm will happen..gothram just fade

away....
 
post 27 #
in upanayanam,only the father /who is performing in father place has to tell gayathri mantram .Who has adorned his father role ?
guruvayurappan
 
May be you are too pessimistic. There were many such dark periods (e.g. kalapirar in tamilnadu). Let us hope that krishna will keep his word and take avatar again whe the 'glani' becomes acute and threatens to drown dharma.

There are some, young and old, who are serious and sincere in anushtanams. They have not fallen below the replacement level, so still there is some hope.


hi
now a days UPANANAYANAM is another show off....nobody can guarantee abt brahmopadesam.....very rarely do sandhyavandanam

daily in our younger generation.....the marriage is going to be just another ritual very soon.....we have to fix divorce date before wedding

date....the world is changing very faster.....education/money is more criteria for everything.....its unavoidable.....living

together is the only option going to be happen....nobody can blame....இது காலத்தின் கோலம்.....
 
........ There are some, young and old, who are serious and sincere in anushtanams. They have not fallen below the replacement level, so still there is some hope.
நம்பிக்கையே வாழ்க்கை! (Trust is life!) :thumb:
 
post9 #
all should keep it mind that doing surya namaskaram after we became blind is useless.we elders said that we should our agriculture activities according to seasons ,
கண் கெட்ட பின் சூர்ய நமஸ்காரமும் காலத்தில் செய்யாத பயிரும் வீண் .it is also like showing torch to blind horse .the torch will not give benefit to the horse ,but useful to passerby.
குருட்டு குதிரைக்கு தீவட்டி உபயோகமில்லை ஆனால் எத்ரில் வருபவனுக்கு பயன் .அது போல பேருக்கு சடங்கு செய்வது அவனுக்கு பிரயோசனம் இல்லை .அந்த சடங்கை நடத்தி தருபவருக்கும் பங்கு பெறுவர்களுக்கு மட்டும் தான்
guruvayurappan
 
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