The Mahishasura debate: alternative traditions

[prasad1]

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Disclaimer:
I was not aware of these alternative traditions. I was raised in an orthodox TB family.

However, in Riddles in Hinduism, Dr. Ambedkar, quoting from classical and religious texts, critiqued Hindu gods like Ram and Krishna, who were both described in terms far removed from the dominant narrative. “Ms. Irani’s comments on the observance of Mahishasura anniversary has exposed the fault lines once again between a dominant religion and several other traditions and revived the debate that occurs when they come in conflict,” said Dr. Ambedkar’sgrandson, Prakash Ambedkar. “I doubt whether the RSS has the capacity to understand this,” he said.
In Annihilation of Caste, Dr. Ambedkar wrote: “If you wish to bring about a breach in the system, you have got to apply the dynamite to the Vedas and the Shastras which deny any part to reason, to Vedas and Shastras, which deny any part to morality. You must destroy the Religion of the Shrutis and the Smritis. Nothing else will avail. This is my considered view of the matter.”
Phule was no less critical. In Ghulamgiri, he said the Buddha made “beef-eating” Brahmins also his disciples, adding: “He brought back to their senses those Brahmins who followed texts that had nothing but claims to magic in them.” He went on to criticise Shankaracharya for having woven a new web to ensure Pandits were not deprived of their livelihood by the surge of Buddhism.
Having re-opened the clash of the Great Tradition with the Little Tradition, Ms. Irani has reopened an old debate that many had tried to put a lid on.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...e-traditions/article8290538.ece?homepage=true

 

[tks]

Disclaimer:
I was not aware of these alternative traditions. I was raised in an orthodox TB family.

However, in Riddles in Hinduism, Dr. Ambedkar, quoting from classical and religious texts, critiqued Hindu gods like Ram and Krishna, who were both described in terms far removed from the dominant narrative. “Ms. Irani’s comments on the observance of Mahishasura anniversary has exposed the fault lines once again between a dominant religion and several other traditions and revived the debate that occurs when they come in conflict,” said Dr. Ambedkar’sgrandson, Prakash Ambedkar. “I doubt whether the RSS has the capacity to understand this,” he said.
In Annihilation of Caste, Dr. Ambedkar wrote: “If you wish to bring about a breach in the system, you have got to apply the dynamite to the Vedas and the Shastras which deny any part to reason, to Vedas and Shastras, which deny any part to morality. You must destroy the Religion of the Shrutis and the Smritis. Nothing else will avail. This is my considered view of the matter.”
Phule was no less critical. In Ghulamgiri, he said the Buddha made “beef-eating” Brahmins also his disciples, adding: “He brought back to their senses those Brahmins who followed texts that had nothing but claims to magic in them.” He went on to criticise Shankaracharya for having woven a new web to ensure Pandits were not deprived of their livelihood by the surge of Buddhism.
Having re-opened the clash of the Great Tradition with the Little Tradition, Ms. Irani has reopened an old debate that many had tried to put a lid on.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...e-traditions/article8290538.ece?homepage=true

I am unable to understand what these alternate traditions are.
It may be fashionable and attention grabbing to criticize vedas but those doing it must have some knowledge to critique them.

Ms Irani's speech delivered with passion seemed to be about why anyone would want to circulate statements meant to make mockery of some customs in the name of free speech. At least that is my understanding.

 

[prasad1]

I am unable to understand what these alternate traditions are.
It may be fashionable and attention grabbing to criticize vedas but those doing it must have some knowledge to critique them.

Ms Irani's speech delivered with passion seemed to be about why anyone would want to circulate statements meant to make mockery of some customs in the name of free speech. At least that is my understanding.

Two things were wrong.
Ms. Irani was reading a fabricated pamphlet.

Anil Kumar, the organiser of the 'Mahishasur Martyrdom Day' event in the JNU, on Friday said that the pamphlet which Union HRD Minister Smriti Irani read in the Parliament was not written by them. "The pamphlet that Smriti Irani ji was reading in the Parliament wasn't written by us. We have got nothing to do with the Left parties or groups," he told ANI. "She is saying such things just to brand JNU as 'anti-national'.

https://www.veooz.com/news/EKU2~3H.html
There seems to be a tradition of worship, mahishasura in some parts of India.

The “depraved mentality” that Irani so vociferously railed against in parliament actually has a place in the traditions of eastern India’s Asur tribe, for whom the festival has a very different connotation.
The tribe of over 10,000 members (pdf) is classified as a “Particularly Vulnerable Tribal Group” by the Indian government, and their language—spoken by some 7,000 individuals—is described by UNESCO as “definitely endangered.”
The Asurs, who claim ancestry from Mahishasura himself, have a very different story:

The Asurs believe that the Devi Mahatmya story of the Markandeya Purana, which describes the birth of Durga and her nine-day long battle with Mahishasura, is biased. According to the Asurs, the birth of Durga from the conjoined powers of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva was a “crooked conspiracy” hatched because their king Mahishasura was blessed with a boon by Brahma that no man or god could kill him.
​

“The devas are the invaders who came to earth and killed our ancestors. We don’t like to see the Durga Puja. We have a separate puja ceremony remembering and mourning our forefathers on Mahalaya, Sashthi, Saptami, Ashtami, Navami and Dashami [the six days of Durga Puja],” a member of the tribe from northern West Bengal explained in an interview in 2011.


The first Mahishasur Diwas, according to the Indian Express newspaper, was held at JNU sometime in 2011. In subsequent years, the celebrations have reportedly been held across the tribal belts in 15 districts of five Indian states. The stories told by these activists closely mirror the one read out by Irani in parliament, although the former don’t depict Durga as a “sex worker.”
Also, India’s cleanest city under the prime minister’s Swachh Bharat initiative, Mysuru, is named after Mahishasura. It is actually Mahishasurana Ooru (Mahishasura’s Country). The temple of the city’s guardian deity—Chamundi—has a giant statue of Mahishasura.

http://qz.com/624056/smriti-irani-a...rshipping-tribals-depraved-and-anti-national/

 

[tks]

Two things were wrong.
Ms. Irani was reading a fabricated pamphlet.

https://www.veooz.com/news/EKU2~3H.html
There seems to be a tradition of worship, mahishasura in some parts of India.

The “depraved mentality” that Irani so vociferously railed against in parliament actually has a place in the traditions of eastern India’s Asur tribe, for whom the festival has a very different connotation.
The tribe of over 10,000 members (pdf) is classified as a “Particularly Vulnerable Tribal Group” by the Indian government, and their language—spoken by some 7,000 individuals—is described by UNESCO as “definitely endangered.”
The Asurs, who claim ancestry from Mahishasura himself, have a very different story:

The Asurs believe that the Devi Mahatmya story of the Markandeya Purana, which describes the birth of Durga and her nine-day long battle with Mahishasura, is biased. According to the Asurs, the birth of Durga from the conjoined powers of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva was a “crooked conspiracy” hatched because their king Mahishasura was blessed with a boon by Brahma that no man or god could kill him.
​

“The devas are the invaders who came to earth and killed our ancestors. We don’t like to see the Durga Puja. We have a separate puja ceremony remembering and mourning our forefathers on Mahalaya, Sashthi, Saptami, Ashtami, Navami and Dashami [the six days of Durga Puja],” a member of the tribe from northern West Bengal explained in an interview in 2011.


The first Mahishasur Diwas, according to the Indian Express newspaper, was held at JNU sometime in 2011. In subsequent years, the celebrations have reportedly been held across the tribal belts in 15 districts of five Indian states. The stories told by these activists closely mirror the one read out by Irani in parliament, although the former don’t depict Durga as a “sex worker.”
Also, India’s cleanest city under the prime minister’s Swachh Bharat initiative, Mysuru, is named after Mahishasura. It is actually Mahishasurana Ooru (Mahishasura’s Country). The temple of the city’s guardian deity—Chamundi—has a giant statue of Mahishasura.

http://qz.com/624056/smriti-irani-a...rshipping-tribals-depraved-and-anti-national/

Thank you so much, Sri Prasad. Now it is clear what is being talked about this special tribe

 

[renuka]

Actually I feel its high time Asuras too are given their due respect.

After all we are only hearing the Deva side of the story.

To me it just seemed that the Asuras were just fine..powerful,handsome(but unfairly depicted as ugly),learned,had firm faith in God to be able to endure Tapas of the powerful kind.

 

[sravna]

To me it just seemed that the Asuras were just fine..powerful,handsome(but unfairly depicted as ugly),learned,had firm faith in God to be able to endure Tapas of the powerful kind.

Interesting Renuka. What makes you think asuras were handsome but unfairly depicted as ugly?

 

[renuka]

Interesting Renuka. What makes you think asuras were handsome but unfairly depicted as ugly?

dear Sravna,

In the Ramayan..when Hanuman is brought to the court of Ravana..Hanuman was dumbstruck to see such a good looking powerful personality.


But the pics of Ravan we see depicted by artist paint him as ugly.

Even in real life...most people tend to think very good looking men are usually BAD BOYS...which is not usually true.

Insecurity of average Joes prefer to paint good looking males as an UGLY picture.

What a DIRTY PICTURE!LOL

 

[here2where]

Durga, mahishasura,... these characters came into existence before caste system was formed. Then why is the asura projected as "dark-skinned low-caste" and durga as a "fair-skinned upper caste beauty" ..?
Defies logic.

 

[sravna]

dear Sravna,

In the Ramayan..when Hanuman is brought to the court of Ravana..Hanuman was dumbstruck to see such a good looking powerful personality.


But the pics of Ravan we see depicted by artist paint him as ugly.

Even in real life...most people tend to think very good looking men are usually BAD BOYS...which is not usually true.

Insecurity of average Joes prefer to paint good looking males as an UGLY picture.

What a DIRTY PICTURE!LOL

It is normal if good gals like good guys and bad gals like bad guys. And even bad gals fall for good guys. But good gals Renuka should not fall for the bad guys.

 

[sangom]

The Hindu religion which we Brahmins follow is definitely one fabricated to establish Brahmin Superiotity over the other three Varnas (or castes) and also to ensure that the brahmin priests had an assured income from officiating as priests in various yagas of kings and nobles as also the householders' small scale religious rites. Essentially, one has to accept all that the vedas, puranas, smritis and other miscellaneous scriptures say, without any questioning, whatsoever. If some pronouncements are illogical, then down the ages, a string of several commentators, gurus, swamis and various other kinds of godmen have left us with highly convoluted arguments and explanations to justify those illogicities and make them look exotic pronouncements bearing on other worlds, other planes of existence (?) etc., etc.

Mahishasura just like every other indigenously Indian leader of people (another is Mahabali) has been "killed" by an Aryan Goddess fabricated by the hindus (just as Mahabali has been pushed down to Paathaala, by one avataara of Vishnu. For any person who is capable of looking at the hindu religion, unfettered by the brain washing by one's own schism or branch of Hinduism, both the JNU version and the Devi Mahatmya version are view points of the conquered and the conqueror, respectively; the only point not 'gelling', according to my pov, is the sex-worker facet which looks rather unnecessary.

 

[a-TB]

Why are asuras always asuras & bad, why are devas always devas & good?
Even in wrestling matches good guys and bad guys switch roles and personalities.

Poor asuras - do they ever get a break other than being crushed by deva/devi

 

[sangom]

Why are asuras always asuras & bad, why are devas always devas & good?
Even in wrestling matches good guys and bad guys switch roles and personalities.

Poor asuras - do they ever get a break other than being crushed by deva/devi

"asuras" most probably point to those who came to follow the teachings of Ahura (equivalent to sanskrit asura) Mazda (Medhas). The people who came to the land of the five rivers labelled themselves as "sura" worshippers, although Asuras are mentioned as drinking sura, an intoxicating drink! However memory lapses can be found even in our vedas and devas like Varuna can be seen described as "mighty asura" etc. By the time of the puranas all such memory lapses possibly ended and suras meant "we" and asuras meant योऽस्मान् द्वॆष्टि यं च वयं द्विष्मः (yo:'smān dveṣṭi yaṃ ca vayaṃ dviṣmaḥ == those who hate us and those whom we hate).

 

[prasad1]

e-TBji,
It was not same all the times.


Hinduism and Zoroastrianism A Comparison

Differences

Whatever may be the reason, the differences between the two traditions are striking, as are the similarities.
The Iranians worshipped Ahura (God). The Indians used a similar name for the demons.
The Indian worshipped devas (gods). The Iranians used a similar name for evil spirits.
Zoroastrians also used the names Rudra and Nasatya as agents of Angira Mainyu, the chief enemy of Ahura Mazda.
According to Zend Avesta, Indra, Sauru and Naonihaitya were evil spirits who tried to kill Zoroaster.
Similarities
However, some gods of the Vedic religion escaped such harsh treatment, namely Yama, Varuna and Mitra.
Yama appears in identical roles in both traditions as the lord of death and ruler of the underworld.
Varuna and Mitra are considered divine entities in Zoroastrianism also. They are associated with sun and moon light, rain, water and plant life.
In Zoroastrian rituals, Mitra is associated with Haoma rites, just as the Moon (Soma) is associated with the Soma sacrifices in the Vedic tradition. While Indra gives company to Soma in Vedic rituals, Varuna gives company to Mitra in the Haoma rituals.
In both tradition, Varuna is considered the upholder and guardian of divine laws, who keeps a close watch upon the worlds through his spies.
http://www.hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_zoroa.asp

 

[krish44]

Prasadji

Very interesting info. thanks.

 

[renuka]

It is normal if good gals like good guys and bad gals like bad guys. And even bad gals fall for good guys. But good gals Renuka should not fall for the bad guys.

Dear Sravna,

Good gals are boring...they keep falling for only good guys.

Bad gals are confused..they fall for every type of guy.

In life aim to be a Smart Girl..that is a Smart Girl makes every type of guy..good or bad fall for her but she never falls for anyone!LOL

 

[krish44]

Who wants smart girls?

How to get confused good girls who can be bad sometimes?

 

[renuka]

Who wants smart girls?

Dear Krish ji,

Life gets easier if you have people falling for you instead of you falling for them.

This is being smart!LOL

 

[renuka]

How to get confused good girls who can be bad sometimes?

They are called wives!LOL

 

[krish44]

What gave you the impression boys want to be smart?

They would prefer to stay foolish if they can get confused good girls

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Good gals are boring...they keep falling for only good guys.

Bad gals are confused..they fall for every type of guy.

In life aim to be a Smart Girl..that is a Smart Girl makes every type of guy..good or bad fall for her but she never falls for anyone!LOL

Renuka,

You should be knowing me. I do not approve many to one or one to many. I would suggest one to one. That I think is being smart. That way there is a balanced give and take.

 

[krish44]

They are called wives!LOL

Very true.lol

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

You should be knowing me. I do not approve many to one or one to many. I would suggest one to one. That I think is being smart. That way there is a balanced give and take.

Dear Sravna,

Believe me its not too hard having people fall for you but you fall for none...sometimes it becomes handy!LOL

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

Believe me its not too hard having people fall for you but you fall for none...sometimes it becomes handy!LOL

Renuka,

The first part is fine but falling for none does not sound ok. You need to fall for one. Only then you become a whole. This is even in the case of Gods like Shiva and Vishnu.

 

[biswa]

Devas were not always good. Sometimes they were soundly beaten by the Asuras.

And of course the king of the Devas, Indra was a confirmed womanizer.

 

[renuka]

Renuka,

The first part is fine but falling for none does not sound ok. You need to fall for one. Only then you become a whole. This is even in the case of Gods like Shiva and Vishnu.

Dear Sravna,

One becomes whole when one falls?

If one was Purnam to start with..why does one even need to fall to start with?

A Purnam should be contended with self and not fall for anything or anyone.

A Purnam is a Patita Pavana!LOL