The Power of Brahmins - Recap !!

[hariharan1972]

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உயர்திரு ராமா அவர்களே,

ஆங்கிலத்தில் எழுதி அலுத்துவிட்டமையாலும், இப்போது தான் என் கணணியில் தமிழ் எழுத்துவடிவங்கள் அமைக்கப் பெற்றதாலும் தமிழிலேயே எழுதுகிறேன்.

மறைக்கு வேதம் என்ற பொருள் கொண்டு பார்த்தால், மறைக்கு ஆரம்பமும் முடிவும் கிடையாது என்பது நம்மில் பலரது கொள்கைப்பாடு.

அதை புறங்கூறவோ அல்லது மாறான நிருபணம் செய்யவோ நான் விழையவில்லை.

பிரச்சனை இது தான் :

அதாவது மறைகளிலே, சில பகுதிகள் (எ.கா : புருஷ சுக்தா) என்பன பின்னாளில் புகுத்தப்பட்டன என்ற கருத்துடையவர் பலர்.

அது சரியோ, தவறோ, நான் படித்தமட்டில் சில மறை நூல்கள் பிறப்பாலே வேற்றுமையைப் படுத்துவதை ஆதரிப்பதைப் போல இருப்பதால், இது இறைவனின் வாக்கு அல்லது விருப்பம் என்பது பிராமணர்கள் அல்லாத சமூகத்தினருக்கு ஏற்புடையதாகயில்லை.

இது நான் வேறு இணையதளத்தில் இயங்கும் போது காணப்பெற்ற விவாதங்களில் நான் அறிந்தது.

அறிவியல் ஆராய்ச்சிகள் மூலமாக கூட மறைகளின் ஆதியை அறிய முடியாதா என்று கேட்போரும் உளர்.

தற்காலத்துக்கு ஒத்துப்போகாத சில பகுதிகள் தாம் மறையின் மீது இருக்கும் துவேஷத்திற்கு காரணமென்று நினைக்கிறேன்.

ஆக இந்த பிரச்சனையை அணுக வேண்டிய கட்டாயம் உள்ளதாகவே நான் எண்ணுகிறேன்.

அது கிடக்க,

கடவுளை அறிய உதவும் எந்த ஒரு படைப்பையும் நான் மறை என்று பொதுப்படையாகவே சொன்னேன்.

அதில் தவறிருப்பினும், கடவுளை அறிய முற்பட்டதில் பிராமண சமூகம் முன்னோடியாக இருந்தது என்பது என் கருத்து.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Sri Hari,

கடவுளை அறிய உதவும் எந்த ஒரு படைப்பையும் நான் மறை என்று பொதுப்படையாகவே சொன்னேன்.

என்னைப்பொருத்த வரையில் மறைத்துச்சொல்லுவதால் அது மறை என்று பட்டது என்பதாகும்.

நமது வேதம் மட்டுமே மறைத்துச் சொல்லுகிறது. மற்ற மதங்களின் புத்தகங்கள் அவ்வாறு சொல்வதில்லை.

ஆகையினால் மறை என்பது நம் வேதத்தையே குறிக்கும்.

அப்படியும் எல்லா மத புத்தகத்திற்கும் மறை என்று சொல்லுவது மதங்கள் என்ற முறையில் எல்லாமே ஒன்றுதான் என்ற மனப்பாட்டில் அமைந்ததாகும். அது சரியல்ல.

Our Veda belongs and is descriptive of Dharma. Theirs are not. Abrahamic religions have a God with an eternal enemy. Our description of God is that he is all pervading. This is what is described in Purusha Sooktham and Narayana Sooktham. What would constitute an enemy for an all pervading God?

There is no devil or hell in our concept. There is only Gnana and agnana.

People begin to say that Purusha Sooktham is an invention and an insertion only because it does not suit their concept of God.

We rely on the interpretation of our three great AacharyaaLs for the validity of the Veda. None of them have repudiated Purusha Sooktham.

As to whether God can be known scientifically, one has to understand that 'science' gives us a knowledge that is assimilated by the mind. Our Vedas clearly says that Brahman is that which mind cannot reach! Sorry to disappoint those who hold that science is God!

If consideration of what others think of our religion becomes important, then you are faced with a problem whether your explanation is acceptable to them. People accept or reject things as per their desires and this is the drawback of the logic. Because of this, at the end of the day you have to make up your mind if the Veda is important or your company!

கடவுளை அறிய முற்பட்டதில் பிராமண சமூகம் முன்னோடியாக இருந்தது என்பது என் கருத்து.

This is a wrong conclusion. People irrespective of being a Brahmin or not have known God and our puranaas other stories are replete with instances. Statistically then more non-Brahmins have known God. How many of the 63var are Brahmins? Please do not accept their allegation that Brahmins have a superiority complex. As I have said each varna has a superior prowess and in relation to that each varna is superior. Brahmins are inferior in the prowess of other varnas and if a Brahmin wants to acquire another prowess he has to give up something in order to get another. You can have only one prowess and not more. Our Dharma has clearly set this apart so no one can corner everything and enslave others. In our Dharma people need each other. That is the real equality of our Dharma and not the வெத்துப் பேச்சு our opponents indulge in.

People who accuse the Brahmins are numerous in number and so they become important. Thus democracy would defeat the spirit of our Vedic Dharma. But yet in each person's view there is none important than himself! As we say you cannot redeem another, you can only redeem yourself!!

It is up to you to make up your mind as to whether Vedas are sacrosanct. It is this Veda that says that we are Brahmins and that is the reason we have gathered here.

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[hariharan1972]

Thanks!

Dear Sri Ramaa,

Thanks!

I guess the positions are clearly unreconcilable.

Thankfully not between you and me

I am referring to the positions of Brahmins and Brahmin-baiters/bashers wrt to the sacred texts.

The more i read you response, i felt, yet again, that some tall leader in our religion should have stepped forward and taken this to the masses.

Driven by momentary perfervidness, i did start a thread on similar lines, but unfortunately it lost traction.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Hariji,

No problem. There has always been baiters of Hinduism from time immemorial yet we strode on majestically!

'I can do it!' is the ahamkara. It is good when one mind's his own business.

And bad when one tries to meddle in other's business!

People overlook the efficacy and advantage of the four segmentation in the name of equality. But then they would surely encounter the problem of admixture which we call adharma. As I said earlier, Bhagavan would come in some form and straighten this out and bring back the division for the benefit of mankind.

ParithraaNaaya Saadhunaam Vinaasaaya cha dhushkrithaam |
Dharma samsthaaba naarthaaya sambhavaami yuge yuge ||

Regards,
Ramaa

 

[Ramaa]

People overlook the efficacy and advantage of the four segmentation in the name of equality. But then they would surely encounter the problem of admixture which we call adharma.

I think a little bit of explanation to this would be helpful.

The four tools at the disposal of the human society are:

Knowledge,
Weapon,
Money and
Labour

Our Dharma has kept them separated for the good of humanity.

Today an asura in front of our own eyes has taken the 'weapon' in his hands, corners the 'money', hoodwinks the 'labour' and persecutes the 'knowledge'. By his blackmail tactics he is also the 'king maker' at the centre! Isn't this a disaster?

Democracy isn't going to solve it. It requires Easwara Sankalpam.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Hari Ji,

There is no need to question the authenticity and the timing of Purusha Suktha. I am quoting from 'The Bhagavad Gita' as expounded by Paramahamsa Yogananda ("God talks with Arjuna" pages 246-246 - Verse 31):

"The sages of India were the first to pattern their civilization after the bodily government. That is why they emphasized the recognition of four natural castes, according to man's natural qualifications and actions."

As we know these "qualifications and actions" embody both what we are born with and what we do according to our free will.

But the problem came later as Parahamasa says: "Later through ignorance the caste rules became a heredity halter." Unworthy children of each caste to do the prescribed work were groomed to do the work just because of their birth, thus weakening the system and more importantly, worthy children of each caste was denied the work more suitable to their nature.

We all know there are ample examples of born non-brahmins becoming what we would envision to be of brahminical stature during their life. We know the poignant story of Jabala in the Upanishad, born in the low strata and being accepted to be a brhamin.

We also know that the dictum that a Brahmin can do other castes duties and a Kshatrya can do the other twos' and so on, apply only during 'Dangerous Periods' when the village is under assault. This is because, a Brahmin was supposed to be well versed in all other caste's skills (to be a teacher), while a Kshatria by his profession can easily do the other two caste's skills, but not the Brahmin's, because he did not qualify in the training of Brahmin hood. And so on for the other castes. Imagine an untrained Vaishya doing the leadership role of a kshatriya! These are the practical reasons. By the way, this 'stricture' if one may call it, can only be found in our 'Smritis' not in our 'Srutis'. Smritis have time oriented components (like Manu Shastra), which are viewed as evolving with the cultures of the time.

So we have to discern what is described in the Srutis that are eternal. Unless the Smritis conform to what the Srutis say in general, whatever is said in those as additions must be viewed with critical eyes and are open to different interpretations.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Sri KRS,

I am perhaps not qualified to go for any spirited arguments with you. However if you would permit me I wish to say the following:

But the problem came later as Parahamasa says: "Later through ignorance the caste rules became a heredity halter." Unworthy children of each caste to do the prescribed work were groomed to do the work just because of their birth, thus weakening the system and more importantly, worthy children of each caste was denied the work more suitable to their nature.

I have great respect for Sri Paramahamsa Yogananda even as I have only gleaned some of his works.

However I have a disagreement on what you have said. If varna is not by birth then it becomes either by one's choice or by someone sitting as a judge and assigning varnahood on individuals. Both of these are wrought with bias and can most certainly defeat the purpose of varna classification. Also it would militate against the one way choice of the three varnas to choose that of others of which you seem to agree. These point to one and only thing: The destruction of varna as given in the Vedas. Dharma is practiced only on the basis of one's varna and that is why it is called 'Varnaasrama Dharma'. I have talked many well versed ones of the other Abrahamic religions. They do not know the relevance of Dharma and the concept of Dharma-adharma is unheard of in their religions. Once we have killed the varnaasrama dharma we would be non-different from other religions.

As far as I know Paramacharyal has ruled that one's varna is by birth only - which makes sense.

This brings us back to the contention of 'human rights' activists that such endowment by birth is baloney!

Also your argument that

Brahmin was supposed to be well versed in all other caste's skills

is not correct. I do not agree for the simple reason nowhere in the history you could find that a Brahmin went through the training of all varnas. After all he could only do the job of one varna and the training in other three would be a waste and such would not have been envisaged. Moreover parents were the Gurus and they taught their children what they knew. Only rarely people of the royal family or nobility were sending their children to Gurukulam for greater skills. The Gurukulam of the Brahmins were always the same thing: The learning of the Vedas. Thus your line of argument that starts from "Brahmin was supposed to be well versed in all other caste's skills" is incorrect.

Many of us Brahmins have chosen the professions of the Kshathriya in the three services or in the administration of the state and justice. And of course a lot of us have also embarked on business enterprises. And by necessity some have even taken menial jobs. This choice would not rob our children of their birth rights as Brahmins. If your argument is accepted then this birth right is taken away. And that would coincide with the contention of the 'human rights' advocates.

Basically the 'human rights' advocates' contention is that every human being has the choice to do what he wants and nobody can stand in the way. I say that acceding to them would create voilent upheaval in the society. We are seeing this in Tamilnadu right before our eyes with our Dharma getting a terrible beating starting with reservations, corruptions, crimes and so on.

Yes, I am aware that we would be told that this is the order of the day and that we can take it or leave it. Of course when we are helpless we resist with our might while praying for God's help for he has assured us:

ParithraaNaaya Saadhunaam Vinaasaaya cha dhushkrithaam |
Dharma samsthaaba naarthaaya sambhavaami yuge yuge ||

 

[malgova.mango]

நண்பர்களே,

இந்த திரியின் மைய்ய கருத்து யாதென்று எனக்கு விளங்கவில்லை.
அதாவது திரியின் தலைப்பு 'பிராமணர்களின் சக்தி - ஒரு பின்னோக்கிய பார்வை' என்று தலைப்பிடப்பட்டு கருத்து பரிமாற்றங்கள் வேறு திசையில் போவது போல எனக்கு ஒரு உணர்வு.

அறிஞர்கள் சபையில் கேட்பதை விட்டு பேசுவது அறிவீனம் என்று அறிந்த போதும் என் சிறுமதிக்கெட்டிய சில வார்த்தைகள்

1. பிறப்பாலேயே யதார்த்த வாழ்வுக்கு தேவையான அறிவாற்றல், அதாவது புற அறிவு, பிராமணர்களுக்கு உண்டு என்பது ஏற்க முடியாத ஒரு நிலைப்பாடு

2. அக அறிவு, பிராமணர்கள் வளர்த்துக்கொண்டார்கள். அதாவது இறைப்பற்றை சார்ந்த வாழ்வியல் முறையை பின் பற்றியதாலும், 'தான் யார், தான் தோன்றியதன் காரணமென்ன' என்ற தேடலும் பிராமணர்களுக்கு இருந்தமையால் அவர்களால் 'இறையை' எளிதில் அறிய முடிந்தது. - well said.

3. இறையை அறிந்ததனாலேயே மறையையும் அவர்களால் உருவாக்க முடிந்தது. - oru siru thiruttham, "Marai" is revelation and not creation. The Truths are revelaed to "Rishis" who did intense tapas for knowledge. There tapas is such that they only saw "irrai" that's why the poetic beauty in revealing the "Truths" in vedas is unparalleled. For example "Mandukya sukhta" is about the song of Frogs welcoming rain after a long period of dry. In Rig veda, the dawn , the night to name a few are all described very poetically.

For the rishis they clearly saw "Irrai" in everyone and everything. They don't put down anyone. That's the beauty. All the varna's are equal that's why we can find "gnanis" from all the varnas. Division of labour is a mangement principal. Based on that only the healthy varnashrama is built.

4. இது இதுவரை கடந்து வந்த பாதை.

5. இனி என்ன ? என்று பார்க்கையில் நாம், நமது முன்னோர்களால் வகுக்கப்பட்ட வாழ்க்கை முறைக்கு மீண்டும் செல்லுதல் என்பது முடியாத ஒன்று. Well , man proposes , God disposes.

6. ஆக இனி, பிராமணர்கள், யதார்த்த வாழ்க்கையும், வாழ்வியல் முறையும் இணைந்த ஒரு வாழ்க்கை நெறியை வகுக்க வேண்டும் என்பதே என் கருத்து. This statement puzzles me. The first part says realistic life and life style and the second part says to set or administer. If we have the power to set, then whatever we set become realistic. If we don't have the power to set then we simply follow the stream.

My suggestion is for the well-being of everyone our dependence on Veda should be even more vigorously pursued. All the brahmins should compulsorily admit there kids to veda patasala, ofcourse English,Tamil, Maths and science can also be pursued. I've seen students managing all. As the education breeds the culture this is one important move. We should generously patronise and support those who run veda patasala.

Not only we , the whole human soceity is depended on intelligence for peaceful co-existence. The chief source of intelligence is Veda. If anyone wants to clarify on any issues that they couldn't digest or conflict as said in Vedas we should invite it and put our efforts in clarifying those issues. For ex- the varna system we can put forth the merits.

Expecting replies.

Thanks

Ram

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Malgova Mango,

It is a myth to say that people pray for others. Everyone prays only for himself! -

I can't digest this, I can pray oh god please enlighten everyone can't I ?. I can pray please cure the disease of my sister's daughter can't I?
Of course I get satisfaction that's completely another thing. But I can pray for anyone. Infact you get complete freedom in prayer only.

After reading your reply, I realize that you are endowed with superior knowledge so I withdraw myself from discussing with you.

Is it your principal to "discuss" with one of equal or inferior knowledge?

You wanted to show some difference between the term intellectual prowess and intelligence and you tried it, so I helped to let you know what I Know and also to define the terms so that it's easy to refer. I'm very much eager to know what you want to say.

 

[vijisesh]

Present Day Brahmin - Jack of all Trades !

Dear Sri Hari Ji,

.....We all know there are ample examples of born non-brahmins becoming what we would envision to be of brahminical stature during their life. We know the poignant story of Jabala in the Upanishad, born in the low strata and being accepted to be a brahamin.

..............

So we have to discern what is described in the Srutis that are eternal. Unless the Smritis conform to what the Srutis say in general, whatever is said in those as additions must be viewed with critical eyes and are open to different interpretations.

Pranams,
KRS[/quote]


Dear Sri KRS ji !

Excellent - I think ,you have reasoned out the ' Need of the hour ' , the perfect statement of what a contemporary Brahmin boy should reinforce, deep in his sub-conscious mind !

Criticial Thinking - Logical Reasoning - Improvising oneself, based on self Analysis - Creativity - Belief in Abundance of God's creation and to abide by God's decision , by itself , Total surrender , Free from Fear , Selfishness - although these are the common pathways to success for people from all caste and creed , Don;t these need to be personified and in higher intensities deep within the Hearts of the Brahmins with the highest level of confidence ! - after repeated hours have been spent by their parents, Guru's , caring - dear one's of the Brahmin boy in carving a ' nearly perfect superior human being - in him who has thorough knowledge of Laws of Nature and who has all the required armoury , mental and emotional superiority , in him to fight this world and establish a place for himself !

Absolutely , Each Brahmin for whatsoever he/she has accomplished till date , has definitely undergone the different roles of the earlier varna system ...... The role of a Kshatriya in being a team leader in his firm fighting proxy wars between competitors, planning and executing complex strategies and leading his sub-ordinates by example !
.. The role of a vaishya in making the money roll and to get him the luxuries that he and his family desire , or at the lower end rotating money between credit cards , business minded , in his own small way !
.. The role of the lower end of the varna system , in doing the chores of his own home - doing tasks like polishing shoes to cleaning washrooms to maintain cleanliness and hygiene apart from the
Daily routine of saying ' Hi' to GOD , and remembering him on and off , more often at times of despair !! I heard the Brahmin boy cooks for himself in the US , being self dependent !

So the contemporary Brahmin has been exposed to all possible faculties and has come out with flying colours ! I think the srutis or the other religious manuscripts should be referred to get to know about what has been said a step further ahead , i mean in understanding the inner sense of the rituals performed , whether there is any mentioning of its real requirement by these texts or was it arranged for convenience or to control the minds of the janata ??

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Ram Ji,

My discussion points about the heredity are as follows:

I quoted Paramahamsa Yogananda to prove a point.

Yes, Maha Periaval has noted that Varna is by birth and He cites the same reason that you wrote above, that is, the child is already born in the climate of Varna and since the child has to start learning what the Varna Dharma requires at an young age, it is best not to introduce complications as to the selection process etc. I am sure this is the view held by many a stalwart in Hinduism (but I am partial to Maha Periaval's words, since the Kanchi Parambarai is our family Gurus).

But as you can see some of our other Hindu stalwarts hold a different view. Why? Again it is because, in my opinion, this is something that can be interpreted both ways. So, who is right and who is wrong? I think both are right! Why? It is because, I think Maha Periaval was concerned about preserving the Vedas and the only advice he wanted to give was to preserve our Vedas by preserving the Brahminical tradition. While the likes of the Paramahamsa Yogananda and Swami Vivekananda thought that the Vedas can be preserved irrespective of preserving a particular Jathi. In fact Swamy Vivekananda said that if any non-brahmin wanted to study sanskrit and Vedas, no one will and can stop them. He wanted all Jathis to aspire to become the ideal Hindu Man, the Brahmin.

But what does it matter? Whether heredity or not, today there is no queue for a non-brahmin to become brahmin. And there is no rush for the Jathi Brahmana to become a Guna Brahmana (the ideal Brahmin). To understand how to become a real Brahmin in terms of what the Shatras have laid out, please refer to the topic 'A day in the Life of a Brahmin' in the online version of 'Hindu Dharma' on www.kamakoti.org.

There may be a few brahmins who live that life, but most of us are not. We are making money in ways that we are prohibited to make, not doing all the nithya karmas we need to do: 1. Taking care of the animals and other castes, 2. Teaching Vedas and Upanishads, 3. Getting food from others as Bhikshai 4. Propitiating the Gods, Devas and Pitrus 5. Learning more Vedanta etc., etc. We now compete for jobs with other castes. Remember, the Varna system was a strict division of labor and every Varna respected other's place in the society. But this was a very long time ago.

Only when this began to unravel (probably quite before the Muslim / English adventures), a body disease set in and Buddhism first appeared and then the foreigners were allowed in, because of the enmity between various local kings. add to this the birth and gradual mis treatment of a whole class of Sudras who became Harijans just because of their professions - tell me how can we get back to the original Varna concept? Only way this can happen is if we Brahmins quit our secular lives en masse, go back to living the life of a Brahmin depicted by Maha Periaval, and other castes following suit.

But do you think a Kshatriya will follw suit? or a Vaisya or a Sudra? I am afraid, the answer is no.

So, in my opinion, talking about the Varna system does not mean anything anymore, because we can not go back. So, what we are left with are sambradhayams in each caste and we somehow as Brahmins need to at least contribute to the up lift of not only our community (which is in trouble), but all other communities, over time as well. This is our destiny and burden.

Now regarding your comment about a Brahmin not doing other caste skills (againg from Hindu Dharma, as cited above):

The Brahmin must be conversant with the fourteen branches of the Vedic lore. He must be proficient even in Gandharva-veda or music and must be acquainted with agricultural science, construction of houses, etc. At the same time he must give instructions in these subjects to pupils from the appropriate castes. His own vocation is the study of the Vedas and he must have no other source of income.

If the Brahmin is asked, "Do you know to wield a knife? " he must be able to answer, "Yes, I know". If he is asked, "Do you know to draw and paint" again he must say, "Yes". But he cannot wield a knife or become an artist to earn his livelihood. All he can do is to learn these arts and teach others the same according to their caste. He is permitted to receive a daksina to maintain himself and he must be contented with it however small the sum may be. The Brahmin's speciality' his true vocation, is Vedic learning.

And

After his meal, the Brahmin must read the Puranas. Next he has the duty of teaching members of other castes their hereditary vocations, arts and crafts.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Malgova.Mango ji,

I can't digest this, I can pray oh god please enlighten everyone can't I ?. I can pray please cure the disease of my sister's daughter can't I?
Of course I get satisfaction that's completely another thing. But I can pray for anyone. Infact you get complete freedom in prayer only.

Yes, yes. You can. Please do understand my point. When you feel the pain of your sister as your own, it shows that you identify yourself with your sister. Thus, the identification of "I" extends beyond the body. Our freedom fighters felt the attack on our country as the attack on their own person and defended it. They couldn't have done it without identifying themselves with their country. If you get this argument then you will not be surprised by what I have said. In fact what I have said is based on the Vedic dictum: "Aathmanasthu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavathi"!

Is it your principle to "discuss" with one of equal or inferior knowledge?

Actually I do not consider anyone to be inferior. They could either be superior to me or equal to me. I listen to superiors (because once I know someone is superior where is the need to argue?) and I argue with equals (because I want to make sure that I am right!). I put you in the superior category, I listen to you!

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Sri KRS,

I think much of the confusion and the resultant frustration stem from the thinking that things have gone out of hand and beyond grasp.

Then there is the sequel thinking that if we cannot do it neither can God! There is an inherent mistrust in God. I am not accusing you of that. People generally forget God's role in the society and in each individual.

Let me now try to answer some of your points:

But what does it matter? Whether heredity or not, today there is no queue for a non-brahmin to become brahmin.

True. But I think the point has been missed. The primary reason for the division into those that pursue (a) knowledge, (b) weapon, (c) money and (d) labour and to keep them separate, has been sought to be broken. The Kshathriyas and the Vaisyas are run over and the cornering of the prowesses to hold the society at bay is taking place. I gave the example of Karunanidhi ascending to power and creating havoc. This is the dastardly result. Our puranas are replete with instances of such things having happened before and the Lord intervened to restore the balance by separating the four prowesses.

the Varna system was a strict division of labor.

No sire. It is the division of prowess and not of labour. There is a difference. Division of labour can be done by man by assigning work. In prowess there is an endowment from God. That is one reason it is birth oriented. Needless to say that our births, how, when and where - is not our choice. We can overlook this only at our peril.

The Brahmin must be conversant with the fourteen branches of the Vedic lore. He must be proficient even in Gandharva-veda or music and must be acquainted with agricultural science, construction of houses, etc. At the same time he must give instructions in these subjects to pupils from the appropriate castes. His own vocation is the study of the Vedas and he must have no other source of income.

If the Brahmin is asked, "Do you know to wield a knife? " he must be able to answer, "Yes, I know". If he is asked, "Do you know to draw and paint" again he must say, "Yes". But he cannot wield a knife or become an artist to earn his livelihood. All he can do is to learn these arts and teach others the same according to their caste. He is permitted to receive a daksina to maintain himself and he must be contented with it however small the sum may be. The Brahmin's speciality' his true vocation, is Vedic learning.

I read 'Hindu Dharma' by Paramacharya long time ago and as human as I am, I do not remember the details. And I do not wish to dispute the ideals He expects of the Brahmins. However I do realize that in order to learn all that you have said your life time and my life time put together won't be enough! So practically it is only an ideal and not a dictum. We should remember the old adage:
"கற்றது கைமண்ணளவு கல்லாதது உலகளவு
என்று உற்ற கலைமடந்தை ஓதுகிராள்!"

"tell me how can we get back to the original Varna concept? Only way this can happen is if we Brahmins quit our secular lives en masse, go back to living the life of a Brahmin depicted by Maha Periaval, and other castes following suit."

Easily! By fighting against the adharmic forces that put down Sanathana Dharma. By not joining forces with those who are bent up on destroying Sanathana Dharma. By discarding the colonial vestiges of denigration of Hindu icons, history, achievements, capabities and so on. By refusing to repeat that Sanathana Dharma is dead and by not attempting its speedy burial!

This is the first step to recovery!

But do you think a Kshatriya will follw suit? or a Vaisya or a Sudra? I am afraid, the answer is no.

Sir. In my opinion only the remnants of Kshathriyas and Vaisyas are in the forefront defending and protecting Sanathana Dharma. The Brahmins are quite insignificant and many of them are drunk with the poison of secularism and have been saying that Sanathana Dharma has been dead.

 

[vijisesh]

Dear Mr.Vigisesh,

You have given a wonderful query in the thread "How a brahmin should set an example to the world"? To find an answer we may have to brush our History a little. At one time Brahmins were considered as paragon of virtue and all others wanted to emulate them. That was when the Brahmins led a contented and simple life of study, performing their duties with limited material possessions. The society took the responsibility of looking after the Brahmins as national treasure, since they posed no threat to others in any way.
.................
But to start with,we can try to be good human beings and certainly try to change our life style to lead a life as per "Sadachara" enshrined in our holy texts. For this I would like brahmins to take the teachings from "Thaittriya Upanishad, Srimath Bhagavad Gita" or similar holy texts. There are plenty of them avalable and simple to follow.

For instance,the exortations to departing student given in Chapter XI (Eleventh Anuvaka) of Thaittiriya Upanishad will reveal simple rules to follow. We can take which ever is possible for us in today's world, like, Speak the truth, Practice Dharma, Do not neglect the study of Vedas, Do not neglect your duties to the Gods, Treat your Mother as God, Treat your Father as God, Treat your Teacher as God, Treat your guest as God etc. etc.

Similarly "Bhagavad Gita" gives a number of guidelines to us.

These are only brief hints to develop the discussion. I find a lot of learned members contributing in the Forum, they can guide us further.

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

Friends ,

Alright , May be the subject is too heavy to handle and after a browse on the most significant messages posted in this thread , so far ,
the one above posted by Sri Brahmanyan ji is interesting and guiding us to understand a few basics !

It's high time for those interested to deep cruise into what the books say into our subject of concern , rather than talking hours together on general things , which has been repeated over and over in so many threads !!

Now how many people are with me , if we attempt to review and understand the ' The [FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Taittiriya Upanishad .... after getting to know that it has some directives and rules for the Pratical Lives of a Brahmin ! What he should and what he shouldn't !

i got the following website for us to start with :
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The Taittiriya Upanishad
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Translated by Alladi Mahadeva Sastry[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]http://www.realization.org/page/namedoc0/tu/tu_0_0.htm
[/FONT]

Please post your valuable knowledge on this upanishad for us to gain an insight into it and understand what it says !

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Vijisesh,

May I suggest that you open a separate thread under Religion to discuss such an important topic as Thairthriyopanishad.

Ramaa

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Mr.Vijisesh,

It is indeed very nice of you to have posted the above message. Thanks.
In fact I have been following keenly the thread. We have so many knowledgable members in the forum who have amply contributed to the subject, but now we are living in a different time and different world. We should find how we could fit in our ancient knowledge to the practical needs of modern life.

The teachings of "Upanishads" are considered "Vedanta" literally meaning "end of Vedas". Upanishads are to be learnt " seated at the feet" of the Acharya or Guru. "Upanishads" form a part of "sruthi". The teachings of "Upanishads" reach the highest spiritual quest of human mind, the relationship between the "Brahman" and the "jivatman" and the relationship between the mind and the matter etc. "Upanishads" by its universality are considered highest philosophical treatises conceived by human mind.

"The Taittiriya Upanishads" is from "Krishna Yajur Veda" is considered one of the eleven important "Upanishads". In olden days this particular "Upanishad" is learnt by Brahmins on a regular basis, since it contains many outstanding teachings on philosophy and religious disciplines. Some will even call this as "Brahmin's Upanishad".

Ofcourse Alladi Mahadeva Sastry's translation of "Tattriya Upanishad" is good. I would also suggest "The Principle Upanishads" by Dr.S.Radhakrishnan for the purpose of reference. I do not know whether this is available in the net.

Regads,
Brahmanyan.

 

[vijisesh]

Dear Vijisesh,

May I suggest that you open a separate thread under Religion to discuss such an important topic as Thairthriyopanishad.

Ramaa

Dear Sri Rama .......... Your suggestion is logical , but the problem here is ,
Too many threads are lost and revived ON and OFF ,without continuity or a dedicated spirit !
you can understand what I mean , the Tempo or the Continuity is LOST and the poster's do not carry with them the flow of the Data in their backend Brain processors that comes from the thread, which eventually isn't so fruitful !

So, what we can do is to utilize the teachings of this upanishad delimited to the topic of our discussion - i.e To pick things and restricting the discussion , which could be contemporary to practical living of ' Today's Brahmin '! -- Possible ??

Kya vichar hai aap ka??

 

[vijisesh]

E-learning with Internet Guru's !

Dear Sri Brahmanyan ji,

Thanks for your appreciation ! But in fact to be modest , we feel so privileged by the presence of a few people like your self who always volunteer to bring the first brick required to construct the foundation for the Building of knowledge for the ' Desiring people '.....

You have been sharing your thoughts and have guided us to make an attempt to get to know the basics of our religion !

I have also heard that the essence of ' Such Knowledge of the shastras ' need to be transfered by a Guru , " seated at his feet", as you have stated ... but due to the busy schedules and the advent of the new electronic era , GOD will understand and provide us the required knowledge, with the help of e-gurus like your self !

Moreover when sophisticated state of the art , engineering medical and other scientific technologies can be followed by the Brain , a genuine attempt can be made to understand what the Upanishads convey !

Let us give it a try !

Dear Mr.Vijisesh,

It is indeed very nice of you to have posted the above message. Thanks.
In fact I have been following keenly the thread. We have so many knowledgable members in the forum who have amply contributed to the subject, but now we are living in a different time and different world. We should find how we could fit in our ancient knowledge to the practical needs of modern life.

The teachings of "Upanishads" are considered "Vedanta" literally meaning "end of Vedas". Upanishads are to be learnt " seated at the feet" of the Acharya or Guru. "Upanishads" form a part of "sruthi". The teachings of "Upanishads" reach the highest spiritual quest of human mind, the relationship between the "Brahman" and the "jivatman" and the relationship between the mind and the matter etc. "Upanishads" by its universality are considered highest philosophical treatises conceived by human mind.

"The Taittiriya Upanishads" is from "Krishna Yajur Veda" is considered one of the eleven important "Upanishads". In olden days this particular "Upanishad" is learnt by Brahmins on a regular basis, since it contains many outstanding teachings on philosophy and religious disciplines. Some will even call this as "Brahmin's Upanishad".

Ofcourse Alladi Mahadeva Sastry's translation of "Tattriya Upanishad" is good. I would also suggest "The Principle Upanishads" by Dr.S.Radhakrishnan for the purpose of reference. I do not know whether this is available in the net.

Regads,
Brahmanyan.

 

[Ramaa]

OK Vijisesh, at least listen to the manthra before you know its meaning.

Before listening to that start auspiciously by clicking on Ganesha atharvaseersham!

http://www.vedamantram.com/

To start off with ThaithriyOpanishad click on sikshavalli first!

If you are conversant with reading sanskrit, the pdf file below gives with the accent on the swara.

All the best!

 

[Brahmanyan]

The Power of Brahmins - Recap!!

Dear Mr.Vijisesh,

The strength of our "Dharma" is the openness to accept all changes in the world without affecting the core beliefs of our "Sruthi". By declaring that "Upanishads" are to be learnt "seated at the feet" of Acharya or Guru, I simply reiterated the meaning of the word "Upanishad". But, as you rightly said that may not be possible in the present day world. So let us use all the modern facilities to our benefit.

Two years ago I took up the study of Greek Philosophy, which I admire much, with the help of "E-Guru" (as you have named correctly), among others I found "the Philosophy pages" a wonderful and comprehensive online site built by Prof. Garth Kemerling for learning western philosophy at our own speed. If you desire so you may open this site in the following URL:
http://www.philosophypages.com/
Unfortunately we do not have such comprehensive Internet resources to study our philosophy. There are many Internet sites which have published our scriptures with meaning. But very few have taken up publications of leading authors who have brought out wonderful books. For instance I would suggest the book "The Message of the Upanishads" by Swami Ranganathananda published by Bharatiya Vidhya Bhavan, which covers lectures of Swamiji only of Three Upanishads, but has given valuable introduction on the subject and on our spiritual heritage. I feel we have some learned persons like Mr.P.R.Ramachander, in the forum who can help to build a comprehensive internet resouce for self study.

"The beginning is the most important part of the work" says Plato. Now let us hear from others as to how to proceed with the subject "Taittriya Upanishad".

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

 

[Ramaa]

For some fine lectures on Thaithriyopanishad that are in MP3 form.

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/mullaivasal/mani_dravid_lectures.html

http://www.ambaa.org/audio/GVS_Lectures/index.html

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Malgova.Mango ji,

Yes, yes. You can. Please do understand my point. When you feel the pain of your sister as your own, it shows that you identify yourself with your sister. Thus, the identification of "I" extends beyond the body. Our freedom fighters felt the attack on our country as the attack on their own person and defended it. They couldn't have done it without identifying themselves with their country. If you get this argument then you will not be surprised by what I have said. In fact what I have said is based on the Vedic dictum: "Aathmanasthu kaamaaya sarvam priyam bhavathi"!

It's good you quoted this diction , I was expecting this from you. The meaning of the above diction is "One LOVE others for the sake of pleasing Himself ".

But here we are talking about prayer and any action (here prayer is a mental action) is valid only in a worldy , conventional sense with I and others division etc..

I think to introduce Vedanta in a site like this has a risk of confusing people. Many of the scriptures stress the importance of transmission of this knowledge in a proper way. Please exercise caution. We can only ask them to read scriptures and can ask them to do punya's to effect proper settings. But if they feel they have lot of other things to attend and cannot allot time for proper settings. Then they should learn to give proper priorites in life. To say "Pathhiram arrinthu pichai idu". is apt here.

Actually I do not consider anyone to be inferior. They could either be superior to me or equal to me. I listen to superiors (because once I know someone is superior where is the need to argue?) and I argue with equals (because I want to make sure that I am right!). I put you in the superior category, I listen to you!

I've learnt a lesson of how to talk in a "saba" here.

 

[vijisesh]

One more weblink to this upanishad :

http://www.sankaracharya.org/taittiriya_upanishad.php


The following excerpts taken from the above site is interesting !

Chapter XI—Exhortation to the Departing Student

1 Having taught the Vedas, the teacher thus instructs the pupil: Speak the truth. Practise dharma. Do not neglect the study of the Vedas. Having brought to the teacher the gift desired by him, enter the householder's life and see that the line of progeny is not cut off. Do not swerve from the truth. Do not swerve from dharma. Do not neglect personal welfare. Do not neglect prosperity. Do not neglect the study and teaching of the Vedas.

2 Do not neglect your duties to the gods and the Manes. Treat your mother as God. Treat your father as God. Treat your teacher as God. Treat your guest as God. Whatever deeds are faultless, these are to be performed—not others. Whatever good works have been performed by us, those should be performed by you—not others.

3 Those brahmins who are superior to us—you should comfort them by giving them seats. Whatever is to be given should be given with faith, not without faith—according to one’s plenty, with modesty, with fear, with sympathy.


4 Now, if there arises in your mind any doubt concerning any act, or any doubt concerning conduct, you should conduct yourself in such matters as brahmins would conduct themselves— brahmins who are competent to judge, who of their own accord are devoted to good deed and are not urged to their performance by others and who are not too severe, but are lovers of dharma. Now, with regards to persons spoken against, you should conduct yourself in such a way as brahmins would conduct themselves—brahmins who are competent to judge, who of their own accord are devoted to good deeds and are not urged to their performance by others and who are not too severe, but are lovers of dharma. This is the rule. This is the teaching. This is the secret wisdom of the Vedas. This is the command of God. This you should observe. This alone should be observed.

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

The Power of brahmins

Dear Mr.Vijisesh,

Please see my message posted on 29.10.07 wherein I have given the
gist of what you have quoted now. Nowadays, we have high-fly
convocation address. In the olden days, under Gurukulam system, the
teacher used to give fatherly advice to the students who have completed
their courses and ready to depart .

 

[Brahmanyan]

The Power of Brahmins - Recap !!

Dear Mr.Vigisesh,

Good beginning. The eleventh Anuvaka gives the guidance to the students departing the gurukula after completing their studies. As Mr.Ranganathan puts it these instructions are on the lines of the modern day Convocation addrass. This upanishad is considered important for the student of Vedic studies. If you study the Upanishad from the beginning with the help of various commentaries you will understand this. Usually another small upanishad "Aitareya Upanishad" is bracketted with this Upanishad for study.

Regards,
Brahmanyan.