Theetu

[SALEM]

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To Girisai: Guru's teaching right from vedic times to this day is just took a inside travel to find the lord with in him, only the sishays interpretation was the cause todays rituals and other things. All time Guru's teaching is get initition and sit on meditation find the Lord with in him and merge with lord. To days Poojas,Homams are not going to give liberation to the soul, but it may add some good Karmas and again to born to wash this karmas also, so to avoid birth and death and from the rituals one shoud get a guru and do meditation is the only way. s.r.k.

 

[SALEM]

To All : To getrid from all rituals and poojas the best way every one should follow the Surat Shabad Yoga the best way to escape from cycle of births and deaths. s.r.k.

 

[sangom]

Sri kgopalan,

Referring your post no.45 I find some interesting points noted by you,like cleaning...with...6 ounces ..etc. Whether we agree or no OR whether they are based on presented day scientific facts etc, I would like to know ,the original reference from where this points are reproduced.

While some similar things I had heard in the group discusions by elders in time pass moods, my"scientific' mind ignored all those, Now that you have posted them here, it has kindled my curiosity to know whether they at least come near to the scientific facts.


Greetings.

Shri Suryakasyapa,

The notion of "uterus cleaning with 6 ounces of blood etc.," will not stand modern scientific findings. As you may very well be knowing the truth is quite different. ovulation in female humans is a cyclical (periodic) bodily function, taking an average time of 24 days or so, but showing wide variations depending on individuals, their state of health and many other factors. The fully matured ovum is available for fertilization for a few (4 or 5) days in each cycle after which, if unfertilized due to whatever reason, it becomes unfertilizable (rotten, in a sense), the body reacts to it and hormones secrete to evacuate the ovum as well as a thin lining, which also forms simultaneously (to develop as the amniotic sac, if fertilization occurs) with the entry of the ovum into the uterus. The blood is part of the thin lining, and is not due to the body doing a douche with pure blood.

What Shri Gopalan writes is pseudo-science which also treats elaborately about other aspects of sexology and borrows many half-baked concepts from Kamasutra and similar old texts.

 

[sangom]

Sri kgopalan,

Yugas are not so small a time , which you can summarise in one line.

What we get referred is the unit of one chatur yuga in which the present kaliyuga is
the fourth. Not to say such innumerous units of chatur yugas, in each kalpa,manvanthara etc etc....and going on and on.... Creation , sustenance,destruction, again creation...

The concept of time really baffles me always. How it was calculated from the low 'ima'..and progressing to pitru varsha,deva varsha etc.. It will be futile to trace back and pin point these to any particular point in the vast time space.

Shri Suryakasyapa,

Our ancients had the knack of labeling or naming and then go on multiplying. With a very imaginative mind they have done this because the purana had to comply with five minimum stipulations, viz., (Panca-Lakshana) viz.,
sargas ca pratisarga ca
vamSa manvantaraaNi ca
vamSAnu caritam cApi
purANam panca lakshanam

1) sarga (creation) 2) pratisarga (recreation) 3) vamsa (history of the sages) 4) manvantara (periods of Manu) 5) vamsAnucarita (geneology of kings).
Hence it was necessary for the purana-writers to cook-up "manvantara" which differs from that of Aryabhatta.

Our panchangas used to give the occurrence of eclipses perfectly ,even before the advent of computers. These calculations were made by simple down-to earth people without any aid of any sophisticated machines, and even before any modern storage and preservation methods were available. It can be presumed that the knowledge travelled down by mouth-to-ear chain path for generations and generations, over thousands of years.

Trying to get to the root is futile because of such vastness of time. Most such research results are based on some available material and juxta posing them with some other material and projecting backwards or forwards within the limitations of guesswork. It will be good for an academic exercise.

The earliest predictions (not observations) of eclipses is agreed to have been made in Mesopotamia/Babylon by the Chaldeans in several centuries before Christ. They found out the "Saros" cycle of 223 synodic months (approximately 6585.3213 days, or nearly 18 years 11 1/3 days) for each eclipse to repeat, and, based on their earlier systematic observations of eclipses and records thereof for long periods of time, they were able to predict quite accurately.

It is also known that the common people were told that unless each one of them gifted their most valuable possessions to the temple (which went to the king and the priests) the Sun/Moon will never shine again and that would be the end. Hence all people used to come with the maximum they could manage and gave as gift to the temple. (Does this ring a bell about "garahana tarpanam and daanam"?)

The knowledge of the Chaldeans got passed on to India through the Greeks and our ancients also were able to predict eclipses from then onwards. We did not have any systematic record of past eclipses (actually record of anything for that matter) and so it will be difficult to believe that the Saros cycle was found out here, unless one is prepared to believe that our sages with their special powers to see past, present and future, could do that in a mystic way. But then astronomers like Aryabhatta were ordinary men and could not have possessed such powers.

Coming back to yuga, there is a yuga dharma in each yuga.There are yuga purushas also.

Even veda and veda vyasa change .If discussed, it will go on and on.... Some can dispute and negate all this by saying just one "No".

A sea may contain anything under the water. The beach goer enjoys the breeze, wondering at the vastness of the sea. He gets what he wants. The fisherman goes and gets what he wants. The sea diver enjoys his diving. A sailor goes further and sails to far away shores.

Each one has his own way of appreciation and understanding.

But, what if one prefers thinking that there are cities and countries under the ocean peopled by men and women with superhuman powers who breathe water like fish and also can take to wings when it suits them?

 

[kgopalan]

WWW. WIKIPEDIA.ORG/WIKI/menstrual cycle details of normal and abnormal menstruation and ovulation and all other are there with references.

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

For athai, who is not a "sapinda" relative the observance as above will alone be sufficient, but in actual practice, since one would go to athai's house and be present till the "grihayajnam" on the 13th. day, normally people refrain from any celebration, temple-going, etc. till the 13th. day; exceptions areof course there, like for example the first birthday of your child/grandchild, nephew/niece, etc. when one will have to go to temple as part of the celebrations.

Depending upon the extent of regard to the demised athai (a friend of mine and his siblings were brought up by their widowed, childless athai, since their mother expired after giving birth to 5 or 6 children and their father did not remarry, he observed an year's mourning as a mark of his respect and devotion to her memory. Probably he is also arranging for annadaanam on her sraaddha day; but these are all personal-not prescribed by smritis-, though these are excellent examples of human attitudes to those who helped them.

Dear Sri sangom ji

thanks for the reply. and the clarification.

the doubt arised to me when my mother told , that the vadhyar told to mourn for a year and we are not celeberating becoz of grahmam. if you want you can do there . but i don`t know this and i used to go for regular temple visits here.

i feel ok now after your reply. thanks

 

[girishsai]

Do not agree. Look at the sastras and its prescription of yuga dharmas.

1. Kritha or Sathya Yuga is performing severe penance.
2. Thretha yuga performing various yajnams/yogas
3. Dwarpara Yuga elaborate Pujas and rituals
4. Kali Yuga - Nama Sangeerthana or Japa

Now you are completing contracting the very basic principle of Sanathana Dharma which tells us Salvation can be acheived in a million ways and you are prescribing only meditation. For your information, Yajur veda deals with the detailed elaboration of various rirtuals and poojas towards the divine forces and the supreme. No guru or contradicts declares the vedas/sastras as redundant and we should only follow meditation.

Though the highest goal of an individual is realizing the self and merging with the infinite, there are various ways and means to achieve that. Just look at the history of Sanatana Dharma and how many have acheived/realized the self by various means.

 

[girishsai]

Please do not advocate getting rid of pujas or rituals. This may or may not work for you but now you are sounding like other religions (with due respects to them) which says this is the one and only way to attain salvation otherwise you are in eternam domination/hell. This is the first time I'm hearing about this 'Surat Shabad Yoga' and I absolutely agree this will lead you to salvation of you do it with sincerity and devotion as does various other means and ways.

 

[vijayramanathan]

i am sorry to say that till now people of going on discussing,condemning theettu etc but nobody has answered my question.yes i beleive in theettu mind i am taking about theettu on account of death.why not some vaidheekas clarify my doubts. please my basic doubt is still un clarified

ramani

 

[Nara]

why not some vaidheekas clarify my doubts. please my basic doubt is still un clarified

Sir, I am not a vaideeka now, I used to be pretty close to one and perhaps more than some from India. I answered your question here.

Let me repeat my answers:

the anushtanam for theettu in travel.i mean while travelling to office some people from a death house boarding the bus.i cannot comeback take bath and go again.what the sastras say.

The only way to observe theettu rules in these circumstance is to not eat or drink anything while you are out and about, traveling in bus, etc. Then, after returning home, take a bath with water drawn from a well, by a person who is theettu free. Then change your poonal with proper manthras. Anything less than this is just compromise and you might as well compromise to any extent you feel like, up to not bothering with theettu at all.

While observing theettu when there is nobody to cook meals/prepare coffee how to do it in the house by a person with theettu.

Arrange to have someone, pay them if necessary. If you cannot afford it, you have to stay hungry and thirsty. You may consider eating and drinking from restaurants for the duration -- you are already theettu anyway.


Then, you can go for sethusnanam and some pancakavyam, you are now all set.

Cheers!

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

Sri Sangom,

It was nice to read your pot No.54.

There were a few new info to me in them.

Thanks. In your posts I find a different and logical angle to many things. Your style of explanation and putting forth your views deserve to be commented well. The style is not deliberate confrontationist, there is no"killing" intention in that.But properly put forth in a lucid way.( I had agiggle when I read about the gifts on eclipse time)

Pls do continue with such posts.


Greetings.

 

[sangom]

Sir, I am not a vaideeka now, I used to be pretty close to one and perhaps more than some from India. I answered your question here.

Let me repeat my answers:
The only way to observe theettu rules in these circumstance is to not eat or drink anything while you are out and about, traveling in bus, etc. Then, after returning home, take a bath with water drawn from a well, by a person who is theettu free. Then change your poonal with proper manthras. Anything less than this is just compromise and you might as well compromise to any extent you feel like, up to not bothering with theettu at all.


Arrange to have someone, pay them if necessary. If you cannot afford it, you have to stay hungry and thirsty. You may consider eating and drinking from restaurants for the duration -- you are already theettu anyway.


Then, you can go for sethusnanam and some pancakavyam, you are now all set.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Permit me to add the following also for complete removal of theettu; I have witnessed real brahmins do all these things.

If, by chance, the person with "theettu" due to travel or death/birth touches any clothes, vessels, cooked food items, should they not be purified by washing if possible (of course, food to be thrown away mercilessly) before one takes bath, and that is important, as otherwise he will have to again take bath and change "poonal" with proper mantra after touching these.

Regarding "theettu" due to birth/death, which can span through the night, one should sleep on bare floor; if any bed, quilt, pillows,etc., are used they cannot be washed and dried, but bed spreads are OK. They should be washed, wrung and water taken out, then after the person takes bath, has changed poonal, he should pour "madi" water in abundant quantity so that the clothes and the bucket/vessel containing it is completely washed, taking care that not a drop of that polluted water touches his feet till the entire thing is washed over. Then the clothes have to be again wrung and dried after sprinkling the "punyaaha teertham" (see below).

But above all there should be a "punyaahavaachanam" (four brahmins, at least two, are necessary if the punyaaham is to be perfect) and the water purified by the mantras should be sprinkled with a bunch of mango leaves (preferably a small branch, not individual leaves and the koorccam placed in the kumbham), on each and every identifiable item including currency notes, purse, allclothes including those in the cupboards, stocks of rice and other provisions, TV/Radio, Computer, etc., since all these would have become polluted by the touch of the person with "theettu". This will also apply if, in an ordinary day after travel, you come back home with the "travel theettu" and touch any of the above items before bath and change of poonal.

 

[kunjuppu]

what about our innards? don't they have theetu too?

we digest food, and the remains in our intestines and kidneys? what says theetu about that? should we have an enema & catheter to cleanse our inner organs of impurity? that makes sense to me, though i see no one talk about it.

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom,

It was nice to read your pot No.54.

There were a few new info to me in them.

Thanks. In your posts I find a different and logical angle to many things. Your style of explanation and putting forth your views deserve to be commented well. The style is not deliberate confrontationist, there is no"killing" intention in that.But properly put forth in a lucid way.( I had agiggle when I read about the gifts on eclipse time)

Pls do continue with such posts.


Greetings.

Shri Suryakasyapa,

Thank you. I am a non-conformist agnostic and have become so after some amount of reading about religions.

 

[happyhindu]

To HH madam a very good Q? AS for as the theetu is only started from the Telugu Brahmins entered in Tamilnadu for their livehood.The time of vedic Brahmins of Tamilnadu never use this word, no concern documents ready to support this. The olden days Brahmens were following only Guru and his teachings,so many Brahmin Ganis even not accepted untouchablity,for ex Sridhariyyaval life. so many. Best thing After return from Bus,Rail travel took a Bath is good for health and you can save from so called Theetu. s.r.k.

Shri SRK,

Dunno why you say telugu brahmins introduced the theetu concept. Untouchability is entrenched in the dharmashastras...surely tamil brahmins must have been following such smrithis prescriptions in the past..

Thetu is followed by NBs as well. A particular grandmother of mine still follows it. She spends most of the time alone, praying all the time. And when she gets lonely, she starts nagging...so i wonder what really happens to all her prayers and observences..

Btw, were there vedic brahmins in tamilnadu in the past?

 

[happyhindu]

happy,

i think there are already drugs which can stop or prevent menstruation.

interestingly, a few years ago, there was also a poll taken among american women. surprisingly the majority of them would rather keep the monthly cycle - the reason given being that it 'defined their feminity'.

though there were many who said they would welcome the new drugs.

personally while mum observed the untouchable ritual in our home, as soon as i married, i indicated to my wife, that this was not my way of looking at things. even though she came from a house, which semi-followed the ritual, she had no issue, shedding those inhibitions like a pair of worn out socks.

my daughter does not even know or is aware of restrictions. to her it is a private health affair, and no one else's business

i did take pills to delay menstruation once because i had to attend a particular religious gathering...i felt nauseous for days...

i really like your daughter -- ata girl

btw, i realised that am in a similar position today what yourself and your wife might have been a few decades ago....so am a few decades behind actually..

what about our innards? don't they have theetu too?

we digest food, and the remains in our intestines and kidneys? what says theetu about that? should we have an enema & catheter to cleanse our inner organs of impurity? that makes sense to me, though i see no one talk about it.

dunno...but i think the ancients found a (make-beleive) way to deal with it...

apparently the idea came to be that an individual who wears the thread will not become contaminated (dharanaattasya sutrasya nochhisto nashuchirbhavet sutramantargatam yaysham gnanayajnopavitham)

and the yagnopavit generally also is considered a symbol of purity (yagnopavitham paramam pavithram...balamastu tejah)...so the idea is that the one who wears the thread is pure physically, mentally..

anyways, this does not answer about the innards...theetu for intestines, colon, rectum....er ahmm...

looking at the pollution, filth and dirt all around, obviously our folks do not realise that cleanliness is next to godliness....

am not sure if our primitives had a well developed sense of hygiene either..

sangom sir and nara sir, what do you think abt shri kunjuppu ji's query ???

 

[Nara]

...sangom sir and nara sir, what do you think abt shri kunjuppu ji's query ???

Dear Happy, this thread is actually a sort of amusement for me. It has already given me lot of laughs. In my previous avathar as an observant SV I used to wonder why I suddenly become madi after a bath even though there may be some potential excreta that may be present inside me. Happily, I have gotten out of that prison.

There is one more thing about freeing oneself from Theettu. The poonal one changes cannot be one simply bought from a Vadyar, it must be spun by oneself, while in madi, and the brahmma-knot must be placed with proper care. Such are the requirements of madi and teettu.

I have seen more often than I care to count Archakas using their fingers to kindle an oil lamp wick. Touching oil sends madi into a tail spin. These are archakas in major temples. They merrily go on with archanai etc., after simply wiping their oily fingers on a pillar or wall. They don't know, which is understandable, but they don't care to know -- I know it, why can't they take the time to know it as well? Is this pardonable, let the esteemed members decide.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Nara Sir,

Brahmanical theetus are too complicated...i think 100 percent compliance will be very-very difficult...i read the post by shri sangom sir and i was stuck that there are ppl who really do all that even in this day..

But i cannot understand why does a person observing madi have to be water-philiac and oil-phobiac. Why does oil affect madi?

 

[sangom]

Dear Happy, this thread is actually a sort of amusement for me. It has already given me lot of laughs. In my previous avathar as an observant SV I used to wonder why I suddenly become madi after a bath even though there may be some potential excreta that may be present inside me. Happily, I have gotten out of that prison.

There is one more thing about freeing oneself from Theettu. The poonal one changes cannot be one simply bought from a Vadyar, it must be spun by oneself, while in madi, and the brahmma-knot must be placed with proper care. Such are the requirements of madi and teettu.

I have seen more often than I care to count Archakas using their fingers to kindle an oil lamp wick. Touching oil sends madi into a tail spin. These are archakas in major temples. They merrily go on with archanai etc., after simply wiping their oily fingers on a pillar or wall. They don't know, which is understandable, but they don't care to know -- I know it, why can't they take the time to know it as well? Is this pardonable, let the esteemed members decide.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara, Kunjuppu, HH,

Some years ago when one Murugan temple of TN was being repaired they found liquor bottles and empty snuff packets in the attic-sort of stone slab just behind the main idol in the sanctum sanctorum ! So, touching oil etc., is a very minor "theettu" I would say.

Kunjuppu, HH,

The really serious and devoted-to-purity have not forgotten the innards. I know of two people (both no more) who used to take a few drops of "original" cowdung dissolved in a little pure (madi) water as the last thing in the day before going to bed! One of them insisted on taking "pancagavyam" after the theettu for birth/death and also if there was any suspicion of theettu due to menstruating women going near. The other person believed, in addition, that Yama and his dootas will not come near cowdung-purified place and so, everyday, the bedroom used to be sprinkled with cow-dung water சாணாத்தண்ணி and all the four sides of the mat (on which people used to sleep) were invariably marked with the cowdung water (just as we do with turmeric powder on all sides of a deadbody to prevent ants and insects coming on to it).

Thus "theettu" is a very powerful item and may be, as someone has said in a post above, it has something to do with aura and all those things.

 

[SALEM]

To: Girisai, I am not advacating a new thing just reminder to the real meaning of our vedham,which said,but the real meaning was replaced by time to time and yugams,and all this yugas some one advacate regarding salvation. The real Q Theetu by travelling, this theetu was not told in vedhams. Vedhams are for how to lead perfect life.Thats all, so I am not told any thing new are like otherreligions. Only my reply that the TB's should come out from so called Theetu and Poojas etc., there is no use, but the meditation is the only way and a perfect living Master will guide in this . with regards, s.r.k.

 

[SALEM]

To All: If one wanted to follow theetu in a death the Kartha and their house holds should followit for ONE year from the time of death, those days the same day they started this rituals. One year every day Thilla thapanams, Hommans etc. the kartha should not come out from the Home. After One year the related Theethi day obthigam should perfrom. Then only the theetu will go.Just Imagin todays Machnical world will it Possible. s.r.k.

 

[SALEM]

To Srimathi HH, Yes todays rituals and other means of TB's advacated by Telugu Brahmins in tamilnadu. Since the same not followed by North Brahmins. In Temples any one can perform pooja at all north Temples but in south it is not allowed. Both Thanjavor and Kumbakonam are the settlement of Telugu and Thulu(Kannada) speaking Brahmins they came during Krishna davaraya's rule.For example our Gura parampara is 100% from Telugu Brahmins only,till todays this followes. s.r.k.

 

[happyhindu]

To Srimathi HH, Yes todays rituals and other means of TB's advacated by Telugu Brahmins in tamilnadu. Since the same not followed by North Brahmins. In Temples any one can perform pooja at all north Temples but in south it is not allowed. Both Thanjavor and Kumbakonam are the settlement of Telugu and Thulu(Kannada) speaking Brahmins they came during Krishna davaraya's rule.For example our Gura parampara is 100% from Telugu Brahmins only,till todays this followes. s.r.k.

Am not sure if you are trying to blame telugu brahmins or what i cannot really figure out. Hope not.

However, i do agree with somethings you have stated. Previously i used to always wonder how come some tamil populations are actually so similar to telugu population groups.

IMO, the gurukkal shivacharier community is actually closely related to one particular group that speaks telugu currently and this group went all the way down to srilanka (see nallur kandasamy temple history)....however, at this point i am still looking into various things and cannot say anything for sure...

but anyways, the trilinga desa was always a shaiva hotbed while the guntur / old puli-nadu regions were narasimha kshetrams...infact to me the hiranyakashipu - narasimha story was just a tribal fight or a culture-squabble b/w the old-saora tribe and the chechus that got written in fantastical ways...however, at the moment i have no credible evidence and so anything i say can sound like a fantasy story as well

Regards.

 

[SALEM]

To Smt HH Madam I am not Blameing Telugu Brahmins, for their live hood the made some compermise with scholars and started their own terpretation to Vedham. s.r.k.

 

[girishsai]

Salem :

Again you are contradicting, saying that we need to get rid of Poojas to attain Salvation. Do you mean to say who all attained salvation in this earth was attained only through the Yoga that you have mentioned? Even the lord in his incarnations has done various Poojas (Shri Rama, Sri Krishna, etc), showed us various ways and means to attain salvation. Sri Adi Shanakra, Sri Ramanuja, Sri Madhwacharya, Swami Raghavendra, and many many more acharayas, and maha purushas have done poojas and advocated this as one of the means for man kind. Pooja is one of the several ways to attain salvation. You can do penance, nama japas, practice various other dharmas, yoga, etc.. Again what counts is the sincerity and devotion that will lead you in the path to Mukthi.

As for as Theetu, it has been elaborately explained in the various sections of Achara's and Anushtanams, what we are doing now is not really following nor understanding it clearly. Go and check with a guru to get a real understanding of what it really means rather than we debating here with little/no knowledge.

Doing yoga is the only way to attain salvation, is your thought or guru's? If it is the latter, can you please pass on the contacts of your yoga guru who advocates that Yoga is the only way to attain salvation ? I need to talk and clarify to him about this. It totally defies the principles of Sanatana Dharama and demeans the values instilled by the lords various incarnations and spiritual gurus.