There is still hope for our world

[usaiyer]

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I acknowledge many merits in the western system. The westerners are a pragmatic lot and know how to plan and win. That type and extent of planning is absent from us. They believe that humans are fallible without exception and it is not pragmatic to try to rise against it and use that philosophy very much to their advantage.
They have succeeded tremendously in that. The philosophy of pragmatism pervades their thinking and the systems they create or build.

In my view the philosophy is not misplaced but personally I would like to pursue and promote the alternative philosophy of human strength and positivity. People should have a choice of acting in accordance with their proclivity and so an alternative is needed.

Quite a nice observation about the merits of the western system. We should promote a philosophy that is based on
human strength and positivity.''Vox populi vox Dei"
is a truth and will prevail is something I believe in.
What if people happen to be insensitive or tolerant without any resistance to happenings around them ,there can be no
visible change in the system.!!!
The present system helps only to perpetuate vested interests
here as well as in the western world. But the capability and
economic strength of the commoner is far higher in the west than what it obtains in India or other developing countries.
Much of their time is lost in meeting their day to day basic needs and cannot think of higher level needs>(Maslow)

 

[prasad1]

There is no western pragmatism. Every successful person has this attitude. May it be Chinese, Korean, American, European.

 

[usaiyer]

I agree with you Prasad Sir, as we view the problem in microcosm,
as we can see successful people in non-western world also
including India ,have followed the philosophy pf pragmatism.
Quite a few of the successful people in India like Tata, Birla etc
could vouchsafe your point,
But looking at the macro scene western world have been able
to attract talent globally, provides good quality of life to people, more ,equal opportunities, and has an egalitarian society. I hear that in US the food prices are quite cheap and have been maintained as such for more than a decade.
The Japanese society can boast of dedicated workforce and management guaranteeing lifetime employment. Unskewed developmet of society, egalitarianism, reduced levels of income disparities and homogenous class culture are some of the key factors needed for creating a society based on human strength and positivity.

 

[prasad1]

I agree with you Prasad Sir, as we view the problem in microcosm,
as we can see successful people in non-western world also
including India ,have followed the philosophy pf pragmatism.
Quite a few of the successful people in India like Tata, Birla etc
could vouchsafe your point,
But looking at the macro scene western world have been able
to attract talent globally, provides good quality of life to people, more ,equal opportunities, and has an egalitarian society. I hear that in US the food prices are quite cheap and have been maintained as such for more than a decade.
The Japanese society can boast of dedicated workforce and management guaranteeing lifetime employment. Unskewed developmet of society, egalitarianism, reduced levels of income disparities and homogenous class culture are some of the key factors needed for creating a society based on human strength and positivity.

Thanks.
Food prices (especially for Vegetarians) are very cheap as compared to the wages in the USA.

 

[Mani_Chennai]

I acknowledge many merits in the western system. The westerners are a pragmatic lot and know how to plan and win. That type and extent of planning is absent from us. They believe that humans are fallible without exception and it is not pragmatic to try to rise against it and use that philosophy very much to their advantage.
They have succeeded tremendously in that. The philosophy of pragmatism pervades their thinking and the systems they create or build.

In my view the philosophy is not misplaced but personally I would like to pursue and promote the alternative philosophy of human strength and positivity. People should have a choice of acting in accordance with their proclivity and so an alternative is needed.

It took a long time to understand what is the difference between the West and the East. One Prof. late R. Narasimhan asked two US born Indian boys, how come his average nephew bloomed once he went to USA and became rich too?. The boys could not answer. I had a research article that showed the reason. The West is based on the Philosophy- Success and failure is no option. This came to existence around 4000 years ago when Greece with a mountain did not have agriculture development. So, when they go for a hunt, there was only about 20% chance they will be successful (animals do have the same 20% success rate in getting a meal). So, they will try again the next day and so on until they succeed. So, in the West if you fail once, you take it in strides and try again. No one will laugh. The system does encourage entrepreneurs to try again and again. That is why whether in education or in business , they succeed most of the time and get patents, Noble prize etc. The middle East and East had agriculture based living at that time – not an extremely successful but successful enough to gather grains from the forest etc. So, in a flat land with agriculture needed all hand to harvest grains if there is a rain. Given small population, society evolved around the family and society. Thus, individuality was discouraged. The is why you see only a few Saints in India. That means, you can not independently think, you can not fail, thus you get into routine jobs. But once our local students go abroad and if they are intelligent become very successful, settle there and do not come back to feed the corrupt government. One can argue that they are selfish,but they came on their own without all these complaining people ever helped them. In a calamity, on an average Americans donate more to the world( you can find the world statistics).

We hate them and label them as selfish,but forget about their sacrifices they have made and tried several times before they became successful. Thus, our democracy is based on wishful thinking and until recently we never thought about protesting intellectual properties. A friend of mine showed me some research done at TIFR around 1970 that allowed a computer to speak and also recognize and type it. But since it was not patented (prevented as TIFR was considered as a public institution), IBM took that research and created the software and sold as Voice Type dictation and made over 2 Billion dollars. India got zero.

I am writing this because without doing deep research, just writing one's one opinion and based on bias news reports, we can not change. We need to accept failure as the foundation of success later. That change of mind set will come very very late. So, our intelligence has no value because the society looks at the failures as the death act. Neet failures resulting in suicide is a proof. That is why, Brahman in general, do no become business person.

 

[sravna]

Nice words and a realistic expression. But there are 3 things need to converge to achieve these goals - time- people and trigger events. Making 3.5% of people to awake and join in any change happens very rarely. If you look at the history - nothing were in succession - separated by many hundred years. Now we have 70% who don't care, 20% only expect others to take responsibility for impossible tasks and 9% believe GOD will take care 1% feel sorry but do not have both the economic and political power to make changes. Take for Tatas. They started IISC in Bangalore and TIFR in Bombay on their own as Nejarvanji TTata had is vision and money and action. So, the awareness will come only another Gandhi comes along or a Rama or a Krishna. It will be a long wait. But being optimistic is fine and this forum is not the right one. As you can see people quote as the news media and published results without knowing all the facts, which are very difficult to be found. So, reforms has to start at home, street, villages, small towns, big cities and the country. That is a tall order. To give you an example ( documented) two Brahman boys in the summer at a village(asked not to mention) talked to each other. They said we need to do something for our village. What can be done? One said, let us de-silt this huge lake. Let us find the details. They were not employed nor rich. The went and met the Collector (he was nice I was told) and gave them help. They found a survey map done around 1840 by a German Hydrologist. The lake has now 40 feet sledge. The collector said it will cost about 1,000 Rs to rent a dreger(or some thing like that) for one week, the daily wage for the driver and petrol/diesal, With 1000 acres of land just 1.25 Re (other expenses) and the local will have to carry out dug out silt. None wanted to help. Braman group accused the boys as thieves, and also refused to take the lead, collect the money and spend it. So, after nearly 60-70 years the tank was never desilted and people are crying for water. The lesson- not the right time, not the right people and not the right leadership. I had visited with the grandpas of those boys to see the lake and only could cry. People want every thing free, resists changes and suffer. Anyway, your desire is burning in the mind of many well wishers but the time is not ripe. I have a list of total failures of about 15 such attempts in other areas.

Thank you Shri Mani for your perspective. I vibe with your words that one should brace oneself for failures before actually succeeding.

I understand it is almost as impossible as it could get with all power and money with vested interests who wouldn't allow this to happen.

People going to the west do get materially much better off. The focus on wealth is in sync with their philosophy and they do it well with out many side effects within that philosophy. On the other hand ethics has been our main focus in the past but now we are also into materialistic pursuits. The problem is thatthe psyche of the nation does not suit that well and is so with a number of harmful side effects.

The theory of complementary operates at all levels and so it benefits the world if complementary happens at the level of nations too. Let us play to our strength. I am not saying don't make money or don't pursue technology but it should be within the framework of our philosophy.

For this to happen people should start believing in our culture and philosophy. The practical utility of spirituality in day to day problems and as a source of practical knowledge should be made aware of. Then India will not only set right the ills in its society because we will be inclined towards ethical thinking and actions and also making a major contribution to the world and encouraging like minded societies to follow suit. This would be the genesis for India to become a real influence on others and a truly great power in the world.

 

[Mani_Chennai]

Thank you Shri Mani for your perspective. I vibe with your words that one should brace oneself for failures before actually succeeding.

I understand it is almost as impossible as it could get with all power and money with vested interests who wouldn't allow this to happen.

People going to the west do get materially much better off. The focus on wealth is in sync with their philosophy and they do it well with out many side effects within that philosophy. On the other hand ethics has been our main focus in the past but now we are also into materialistic pursuits. The problem is thatthe psyche of the nation does not suit that well and is so with a number of harmful side effects.

The theory of complementary operates at all levels and so it benefits the world if complementary happens at the level of nations too. Let us play to our strength. I am not saying don't make money or don't pursue technology but it should be within the framework of our philosophy.

For this to happen people should start believing in our culture and philosophy. The practical utility of spirituality in day to day problems and as a source of practical knowledge should be made aware of. Then India will not only set right the ills in its society because we will be inclined towards ethical thinking and actions and also making a major contribution to the world and encouraging like minded societies to follow suit. This would be the genesis for India to become a real influence on others and a truly great power in the world.

I am sure our discussions will not end and also produce any demonstrable good philosophy. Understanding and living according to Philosophy is not an easy thing and in general, can you please show me a thousand honest Brahmins in Chennai or in other city. We talk about the past as though we lived there and continue to live now, so that we can lament. The economy, politics, values system are global and inter twined. What we can ask for is a minimal decency to share. But just blaming others and wishing "some one" should lead is a myth. Each one should start within their own family. Have I done. Yes, even my wife was angry, but the result is my sons are ethical, in general not greedy, don't steal, help others when possible and so on. So when ask me how did you raise them this good, I tell them I am a living model for them. I don't expect any thing from them in return. So, if I sleep one boy puts a pillow under my head and another put a shawl over me. This is not brag but to show every one who quotes Shankara, Veda, Upanishad etc., are they living according to what they project. Otherwise, this is forum is our gossip forum. But you have a vision and that is to be appreciated. I think, I will stop with this as my lost post. Thanks.

 

[sravna]

Power has to be fought by greater power otherwise there will not be a conclusive result and there will not be accomplishment of goal. The world of today is strongly interconnected. So anyone fighting moral corruption is fighting the world.

A individual or even a group cannot hope to win that fight. A nation? May be but first the nation has to mend itself. The global powers would get involved if they sense that the endeavour at the national level may succeed.

So what can be done? There is only one alternative left. The individual spearheading reform should wield enormous personal power that matches the external power of the world. One may say that even people with great spiritual powers couldn't succeed in the past. Yes as everything evolves in accordance with time spirituality also evolves to suit the time.

A brand of spirituality that possesses deterrent power in addition to normally known spiritual powers.

I am emphasizing personal power of this extent is required because everything else will be subdued by the powerful interests of the world.

Once it is shown and known that the power of the individual or the group can cope up with pressures then it gains the credibility required to carry on the fight. People are bound to change as many would get relief on being freed from the clutches of the forced influence on them.

It can and will happen.

 

[renuka]

Power has to be fought by greater power otherwise there will not be a conclusive result and there will not be accomplishment of goal. The world of today is strongly interconnected. So anyone fighting moral corruption is fighting the world.

A individual or even a group cannot hope to win that fight. A nation? May be but first the nation has to mend itself. The global powers would get involved if they sense that the endeavour at the national level may succeed.

So what can be done? There is only one alternative left. The individual spearheading reform should wield enormous personal power that matches the external power of the world. One may say that even people with great spiritual powers couldn't succeed in the past. Yes as everything evolves in accordance with time spirituality also evolves to suit the time.

A brand of spirituality that possesses deterrent power in addition to normally known spiritual powers.

I am emphasizing personal power of this extent is required because everything else will be subdued by the powerful interests of the world.

Once it is shown and known that the power of the individual or the group can cope up with pressures then it gains the credibility required to carry on the fight. People are bound to change as many would get relief on being freed from the clutches of the forced influence on them.

It can and will happen.

Sravna,

How great are we humans?
I think we have to drop that idea.
A microscopic virus brought the whole world down to its knees..Brahmin or Kshatriya or Vaisya or Shudra.
From priest to King to pauper, it spared no one.

Booming bussiness empires went down ..many jobs were lost..from riches to rags..

What does this say?

We the humans the so called evolved ones well equipped for finer thinking or yeilding the sword yet could not survive a pandemic?

Covid 19 showed us we are NOTHING.
No nation fought the Covid war without aid from each other.

What does this show?
No one nation is KING or the leader of the world..
Everyone is a partner in existence and we share the world with animals and plants too as partners.

We humans are the weakest of creations because we tend to think we are the most evolved..may be thats our downfall..to not realize that we too are just an organism in existence.

 

[sravna]

Yes your point highlights the importance of respecting and being harmonious with nature. I fully agree.

 

[sravna]

I am sure our discussions will not end and also produce any demonstrable good philosophy. Understanding and living according to Philosophy is not an easy thing and in general, can you please show me a thousand honest Brahmins in Chennai or in other city. We talk about the past as though we lived there and continue to live now, so that we can lament. The economy, politics, values system are global and inter twined. What we can ask for is a minimal decency to share. But just blaming others and wishing "some one" should lead is a myth. Each one should start within their own family. Have I done. Yes, even my wife was angry, but the result is my sons are ethical, in general not greedy, don't steal, help others when possible and so on. So when ask me how did you raise them this good, I tell them I am a living model for them. I don't expect any thing from them in return. So, if I sleep one boy puts a pillow under my head and another put a shawl over me. This is not brag but to show every one who quotes Shankara, Veda, Upanishad etc., are they living according to what they project. Otherwise, this is forum is our gossip forum. But you have a vision and that is to be appreciated. I think, I will stop with this as my lost post. Thanks.

You asked me whether I can show 1000 honest Brahmins?.Why not try showing the same number of honest westerners? Why always blame and find fault with Brahmins and project the west as the model of virtue. There are good and bad with both. Kindly come out of pettiness to accept that fact otherwise people are just being shameless mouthpiece of the west

I do not have to done social service to contemplate doing it. One can start afresh.

Good that you have tried but I am sorry you have to give it up. But let not the word of failure deter one who wants to try.

 

[usaiyer]

but human memory is short and at individual level pandemic may leave some creeping memories .but national level it will be the self interest that will be predominant for Nations..
Shall we learn to live in society in brotherhood ,casting away
differences of wealth ,creed .color and other discriminations?
Will the WHO be strengthened and will nations cooperate
in finding out more of where the dreaded disease originated?
will the environmental safeguards and living close to nature get a policy boost internationally.
The all will meet ,talk .talk ,but difficult to say things will improve.
Younger generation should wake up and hold aloft their flag of protest for cleaner ,healthy and a just society.

 

[sravna]

We need to start afresh. For that the willingness should first happen. Prejudice and vested interests are the biggest enemies. Atleast initially little can be done about the latter. Those people will move heaven and earth to protect their interests. It is the common man who has to come out of the stupor induced on him and start thinking.

If common man can be brainwashed to ignore and accept evil why can't the reverse be done by enlightening him? He has to be clear of the brainwashing first. That is the real challenge.

We should start at a very high level and believe that it is possible for humans to rid of weaknesses and that humans are not characterized by weaknesses but by strengths.

 

[renuka]

We need to start afresh. For that the willingness should first happen. Prejudice and vested interests are the biggest enemies. Atleast initially little can be done about the latter. Those people will move heaven and earth to protect their interests. It is the common man who has to come out of the stupor induced on him and start thinking.

If common man can be brainwashed to ignore and accept evil why can't the reverse be done by enlightening him? He has to be clear of the brainwashing first. That is the real challenge.

We should start at a very high level and believe that it is possible for humans to rid of weaknesses and that humans are not characterized by weaknesses but by strengths.

Why start at a very high level or any level for that matter?
Why label anything as weakness or strength?

Just start at a point and be in the serial NOW and one would get a series of points and see every outcome as it is and then decide the next course of action.
This is known as Viveka.
To function in the NOW, setting no goals or ranks or levels or aims yet always having solutions for every situation.

If one wants to start at a " very high level" one would get pretty unhappy when the expectations are not met and there is also a risk of forcing things to fit into one's mental construct.
What if there is something even better than the " very high level"?
Is one going to bring it down to fit it into one's mental construct?

Or what if a person isnt ready for higher ideals?
Why let them function in a zone they cant cope?

Let it be and just start the ball rolling and wait and observe.

 

[sravna]

Why start at a very high level or any level for that matter?
Why label anything as weakness or strength?

Just start at a point and be in the serial NOW and one would get a series of points and see every outcome as it is and then decide the next course of action.
This is known as Viveka.
To function in the NOW, setting no goals or ranks or levels or aims yet always having solutions for every situation.

If one wants to start at a " very high level" one would get pretty unhappy when the expectations are not met and there is also a risk of forcing things to fit into one's mental construct.
What if there is something even better than the " very high level"?
Is one going to bring it down to fit it into one's mental construct?

Or what if a person isnt ready for higher ideals?
Why let them function in a zone they cant cope?

Let it be and just start the ball rolling and wait and observe.

Dear Renuka,

I know "high" is a much hated word. What I mean here is it is easy to explain the big picture first and that would be the logical way too. Only if people know what is it really we want to address only then they will be able to understand the details easily. It is like presenting the algorithm before presenting the detailed program.

Besides the cleverly veiled objectives of the devils need to be unveiled and
presented. A lucid big picture serves that purpose.

 

[sravna]

The Almighty of the earth think

i. They are the most exceptional beings ever to have appeared and that will ever appear in the universe
Ii. Everyone else is stark stupid
Iii. If others do appear somewhat intelligent somehow they should be made to look stupid.

The above are the unshakeable premises which drive their actions.

Since they are bereft of principles, meticulous studies are done to create heuristics which are employed to make the premises hold.

Technology is a big player here in implementation.

False sense of security and a sense of control is offered to the gullible public who are made to feel happy with that.

In really the real beneficiaries and who are in real control are the creme de la creme of the exceptional beings with their self serving though incoherent thinking . Their contradictions though may not be evident in the short run is waiting to be self destructive. They have had their share of fun destroying and regaling and time is now poised to bring back the balance.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

I know "high" is a much hated word. What I mean here is it is easy to explain the big picture first and that would be the logical way too. Only if people know what is it really we want to address only then they will be able to understand the details easily. It is like presenting the algorithm before presenting the detailed program.

Besides the cleverly veiled objectives of the devils need to be unveiled and
presented. A lucid big picture serves that purpose.

High or low are not " hated" words.
It only exists when we view things through dualistic lenses.

To actually solve anything we should see anything as it is.
Only then any problem can be solved.

When we start adding adjectives to any attempt, we subconsciously are altering things to fit into our perception but if observe things as it is we go with the flow in the path of balance.

 

[renuka]

The Almighty of the earth think

i. They are the most exceptional beings ever to have appeared and that will ever appear in the universe
Ii. Everyone else is stark stupid
Iii. If others do appear somewhat intelligent somehow they should be made to look stupid.

The above are the unshakeable premises which drive their actions.

Since they are bereft of principles, meticulous studies are done to create heuristics which are employed to make the premises hold.

Technology is a big player here in implementation.

False sense of security and a sense of control is offered to the gullible public who are made to feel happy with that.

In really the real beneficiaries and who are in real control are the creme de la creme of the exceptional beings with their self serving though incoherent thinking . Their contradictions though may not be evident in the short run is waiting to be self destructive. They have had their share of fun destroying and regaling and time is now poised to bring back the balance.

Dear Sravna..you wrote the following...

The Almighty of the earth think

i. They are the most exceptional beings ever to have appeared and that will ever appear in the universe
Ii. Everyone else is stark stupid
Iii. If others do appear somewhat intelligent somehow they should be made to look stupid.


Honestly are you not somewhat practicing this to some extent?

You do feel " some" have the ability to " see" the bigger picture and some cant.

You do feel some are not capable of finer intellect and some do have the DNA for it.

Also you do strongly feel the west have technological and scientific advancement but yet not " spiritual" in their views and just cant " see" the bigger picture which you feel that a certain group is able to " see"

You know what..I have a feeling in your next life you are going to be born in the USA as a white top scientist and would win a Nobel prize..you would have to experience what you seem to not be comfortable with.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna..you wrote the following...

The Almighty of the earth think

i. They are the most exceptional beings ever to have appeared and that will ever appear in the universe
Ii. Everyone else is stark stupid
Iii. If others do appear somewhat intelligent somehow they should be made to look stupid.


Honestly are you not somewhat practicing this to some extent?

You do feel " some" have the ability to " see" the bigger picture and some cant.

You do feel some are not capable of finer intellect and some do have the DNA for it.

Also you do strongly feel the west have technological and scientific advancement but yet not " spiritual" in their views and just cant " see" the bigger picture which you feel that a certain group is able to " see"

You know what..I have a feeling in your next life you are going to be born in the USA as a white top scientist and would win a Nobel prize..you would have to experience what you seem to not be comfortable with.

Dear Sravna..you wrote the following...

The Almighty of the earth think

i. They are the most exceptional beings ever to have appeared and that will ever appear in the universe
Ii. Everyone else is stark stupid
Iii. If others do appear somewhat intelligent somehow they should be made to look stupid.


Honestly are you not somewhat practicing this to some extent?

You do feel " some" have the ability to " see" the bigger picture and some cant.

You do feel some are not capable of finer intellect and some do have the DNA for it.

Also you do strongly feel the west have technological and scientific advancement but yet not " spiritual" in their views and just cant " see" the bigger picture which you feel that a certain group is able to " see"

You know what..I have a feeling in your next life you are going to be born in the USA as a white top scientist and would win a Nobel prize..you would have to experience what you seem to not be comfortable with.

Nice rejoinder Renuka! That is the beauty and bane of physical existence. You believe in your views and stick to them. But if you are not deeply prejudiced and you are taking efforts to be objective, you are moving towards what God designed you to move towards.

What do you think?

 

[sravna]

High or low are not " hated" words.
It only exists when we view things through dualistic lenses.

To actually solve anything we should see anything as it is.
Only then any problem can be solved.

When we start adding adjectives to any attempt, we subconsciously are altering things to fit into our perception but if observe things as it is we go with the flow in the path of balance.

No Renuka the interpretation I give to high is, it is not dualistic. As you evolve though not necessarily through spirituality but also through scientific understanding, you tend to move towards that oneness thinking of high.

 

[renuka]

Nice rejoinder Renuka! That is the beauty and bane of physical existence. You believe in your views and stick to them. But if you are not deeply prejudiced and you are taking efforts to be objective, you are moving towards what God designed you to move towards.

What do you think?

We can only do what unfolds for us.
So each one has their own journey..none of us can shape the mind of others.

Btw when God Himself doesnt try to " control" us, He allows us to have various modes of expressions and understandings why try to " rule" the minds of others?

 

[renuka]

No Renuka the interpretation I give to high is, it is not dualistic. As you evolve though not necessarily through spirituality but also through scientific understanding, you tend to move towards that oneness thinking of high.

Oneness has no room for high or low or anything in between.
In the state of Oneness its an equilibrium where the high and low cancel out each other.

 

[sravna]

We can only do what unfolds for us.
So each one has their own journey..none of us can shape the mind of others.

Btw when God Himself doesnt try to " control" us, He allows us to have various modes of expressions and understandings why try to " rule" the minds of others?

Ok I will grant that!

 

[sravna]

Oneness has no room for high or low or anything in between.
In the state of Oneness its an equilibrium where the high and low cancel out each other.

Ok. I use oneness and high as synoymous. We differ only on how we use the word.

 

[renuka]

Ok. I use oneness and high as synoymous. We differ only on how we use the word.

Sravna,

If there is high, there is low.

The word Oneness isnt fully accurate because it involves a number.

Imam Ali( a.s) gets it perfectly accurate when he describes God as " He is One but not through counting"

So I guess the best word would be Purnatva which means whole and complete.
Its a better term as it has no room for high and low.