Thinking in English- Its been 60 years post Independence!

[Raghy]

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How about using these terms interchangeably, say Sowbhagyatha for males (or something that is proper in Sanskrit -- Sangom may clarify), and use Chiranjeevi for females also.

Cheers!

Actually my friend's father ( no more now) used to address ladies with both Sowbagyavathy and Chiranjeevi. (He lived in Srivilliputhoor, Thenkalai Iyengar. a great personality. In one of the letters, he addressed my wife like that). I have no objection to address like him. The more well wishes, the better!

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

I have no objection to address like him. The more well wishes, the better!

Raghy, they say sticks and stones break my bones, but words don't hurt me. IMO, this is just bogus. Thiruvalluvar said it right when he said the hurt caused by words never heals. The words we use have an indelible impact. Our tradition is infused with words that routinely put girls/women down in favor of boys/men. It is up to us to clean up the act. The males of our specious have a special responsibility in this matter.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Raghy, they say sticks and stones break my bones, but words don't hurt me. IMO, this is just bogus. Thiruvalluvar said it right when he said the hurt caused by words never heals. The words we use have an indelible impact. Our tradition is infused with words that routinely put girls/women down in favor of boys/men. It is up to us to clean up the act. The males of our specious have a special responsibility in this matter.

Cheers!

Sri.Nara,

I sincerely meant it. He was the only person who addressed like that. I address everyone with sincerity. It seems, you took my comment as sarcastic. There was a time when my wife was proposing my friend's brother for her younger sister; that was the time they had letter correspondences. We spoke about the way my friend's father addressed my wife for a very long time.

I have no reason to hurt anyone. Matter of fact, I have gone well past that stage very long back.

Thanks very much for the discussion.

Cheers!

 

[biswa]

Like once I had gone to a temple with my husband and all of a sudden one old lady decides to ask me so loudly.."what is the relationship between you and that man with you"

I answered "He is my husband"

And guess what..she tells me this real loud in the temple "How would I know..I dont see a Thali on your neck and a pottu on your forehead so I was wondering whats your relationship with him becos you seemed rather close in contact with him and as a Tamil girl dont you know culture that a married woman should wear all these?"

Wait! Was this in Saudi Arabia or do the Taliban now have temples?

 

[renuka]

Wait! Was this in Saudi Arabia or do the Taliban now have temples?

Dear Biswa,

Its Malaysia yaar.

 

[sravna]

OK Meghavarshini, Your point is what shastras say are not in tune with present day reality and therefore shastras need to change?

My point is you have to separate the essential element of shastras from the rest. The goal of the shastras is to take a person on the path of enlightenment and the time it takes to achieve enlightenment spans a number of births. Thus the essential elements are to be followed irrespective of the nature of the era . In fact these have been factored into prescriptions of the shastras.

Meghavarshini, I agree that men have been given more priveleges than women by the shastras.Those priveleges I would say have nothing to do with the superiority of one over the other but only that men are more suited to wield such external power granted to them.

But the power that controls the external power is the real power. Women I think are more suited for wielding of such psychological power. Also, financial independence is important but not everything. If you put the net happiness due to financial independence for women on one side of the scale and the net happiness arising out of letting men be the breadwinner and women playing the traditional role, I think the scale would tilt in favor of the latter for the women.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Dear Shri.Kunjuppu,
I refer to your detailed post no.14.I had gone through the lecture delivered at South Church,Hartford on october 4th,2006 on"Principles of Hinduism" in Shri.A.V.Srinivasan's blog and I am impressed with his views.Any issue can be viewed from different angles.
I feel unless one has mastered the contents of our Scriptures,one is not qualified or competent to form opinions and be judgmental.
The embarrassment faced by M/sMeghavarshini as explained in last para of her post no. 9 is not experienced in majority of TB houses including other communities in cities
and in north India.
There is one temple"Navaneetha Krishnan"temple in my area in Nanganallur,Chennai.
One SV (vadagalai) working as Madappalli cook in that temple was given accommodation in my house,as his wife SV(Thenkalai)was assisting us in our kitchen.
I know that lady used to take bath during those monthly period days and cook for her husband.That gentleman was attending to his duty in the temple on those days also and cook prasadams.I do not know where Madam Meghavarshini is residing.IMHO a embarrassing situation faced in a particular house need not be generalised and blown out of proportion and one need not think of reforming our Hindu Faith,based on such isolated incidents.
I am of the opinion that Hinduism is very liberal and allows full freedom to all.
Women have been given the highest position in the Hindu Faith.
In the order of worship,mother has been given the first position,then father,then Guru
and then only GOD.
Even sanyasis(this includes Sankaracharyas) have to prostrate before his mother,but his father has to prostrate before Sankaracharya.
Man and Woman complement each other.Even LORD Rama had to keep an image of
SitaDevi by his side(after She was sent to the forest on rumors) while performing Yagnya.

 

[C RAVI]

Sri B.K.

I am glad to find your post. We all are living in a family system in a day to day practical life and as Hindus, have got some basic ideas of how men and women are considered important/respectful/meaningful.

But still some of us, claims injustice and partiality in valuing and managing each other. The shastras, IMHO were never impartial/illogical/ridiculous, that need to be altered to make it perfect and reasonable for Hindus based on generation, to live as true Hindus.

Going through some of the posts, puts me in doubt as whether truly some of us are ignorant of how we/shastras consider men and women or we tend to just have paranoid suspicion about it, due to reactions of a specific individual (men/women) who seem to put us in trouble OR bother us by comparing us with their own belief and conventions, citing shastras (in order to benefit themselves or due to their ignorance).

 

[C RAVI]

OK Meghavarshini, Your point is what shastras say are not in tune with present day reality and therefore shastras need to change?

My point is you have to separate the essential element of shastras from the rest. The goal of the shastras is to take a person on the path of enlightenment and the time it takes to achieve enlightenment spans a number of births. Thus the essential elements are to be followed irrespective of the nature of the era . In fact these have been factored into prescriptions of the shastras.

Meghavarshini, I agree that men have been given more priveleges than women by the shastras.Those priveleges I would say have nothing to do with the superiority of one over the other but only that men are more suited to wield such external power granted to them.

But the power that controls the external power is the real power. Women I think are more suited for wielding of such psychological power. Also, financial independence is important but not everything. If you put the net happiness due to financial independence for women on one side of the scale and the net happiness arising out of letting men be the breadwinner and women playing the traditional role, I think the scale would tilt in favor of the latter for the women.

Sri Sravna,

Well said..

IMHO, I can say that, there would hardly be few women, who are happy as a career oriented, married lady with a kid. Either they face complications in domestic front (though husband is cooperative) or many issues managing themself in their work place.

Though, cooperative couples are living happily, helping each other in true spirit to manage household with a motive of offering a more better living for their children, many working mother had to give up their job for the good of their same children.

Here, we can ask a question. Why career oriented wife have to give up her job and not the husband? A husband can very well give up a job and sit at home to take care. But, I would like to know as how many ladies would be comfortable with such a choice? Considering the social definition - "Uthyogam Purusha Lakshanam", and the basic psychology of the growing children.

Either, one of the couples would decide sacrificing their financial independency/career ambitions and take other kind of work (if need be) that can easily allow them to look after their family well OR both would continue working and would take alternate measures to take care of household chores and their children.

The later are the families who had/having lots of complications in their relationship with their children and or are finding their children in many serious issues.

 

[C RAVI]

Those were the days, when sanitary pads were not in use during menstrual cycle. Alternates were used and were not effective to serve the purpose, at times. Thus, ladies were restricted from entering pooja room and temples, not only to maintain the sanctum and sanctorum of the pooja place, but also to ensure unwanted distractions/embarrassments by a lady herself and others, during their prayers.

Now a days, many females are away from their home/family, living in hostels as students or working ladies. All such women, if wish and go to temple during menstrual cycle, having properly taken care of, who can come to know?

In present scenario, many couples are not living in a joint family system. And obviously the concept of "MADI" can not exist. In fact need not to, IMO. All the house hold activities are taken care by such ladies all alone at home including cooking, without the help of another lady. I don't think, present generation guys would restrict their wives from entering pooja room and visiting temples during those days, if they wish to.


It is ladies personal choice as whether to enter pooja room or temple during menstrual cycle as they are well protected with the help of modern products.


Yes, problem comes when previous generation man or a lady be at home and see their daughter/DIL entering pooja room/temples during periods. Some could succeed in convincing such old generation folks and some couldn’t.

The next generation for sure would not find even a single such old fashioned folks. And Hinduism would still be intact/respected/followed and glorified

 

[kunjuppu]

BK,

i cannot but becoming convinced over my lifetime, i wish to repeat, over my lifetime, and not just a sudden discovery, but a gradual realization: that the brahmin man, who interpreted the scriptures did so for his own benefit.

how many of us today can withstand or will permit, on widowhood, our mother, sister or daughter to be defaced - head shorn, white garb and banished to the dark room and live on left overs or kanji, be considered a bad omen to be kept out of sight before all functions et al.

i think it was only since the 1950s or maybe even the 1960s, that as a community, i repeat as a community consensus, we shunned this hateful habit. or maybe it was the 1970s. who knows and who cares, but today, it is simply NOT DONE.

maybe it was all about money? for the poor, one less mouth to feed. for the rich, one less portion to divide the wealth? who knows? who cares?

i think, it is best, we consider meghavarshini's challenge, in the context of times, instead of harping as to how great and infallible the scriptures are. they are only as good as they are relevant to our lives, and today, widow burning or shunning is not relevant to our lives.

Manu has said, afaik, widows should be burned, or be married to the husband's brother or ???

i rest my case.

thank you & God Bless.

 

[Yamaka]

In this early 21st century also, many families treat their sons better than their daughters. Many say son is more important, and the grandson is more important than daughters and their sons! Because they keep their names and lineage alive! All those CRAP.

Lingering historical pathologies still affect their thinking, I suppose.

I always tell my daughter, "You are a wonderful person, as good and as talented as your brother is...at home or anywhere if you feel you are discriminated, just stand up and shout and put us to shame.. for your personal rights are your civil rights, the inalienable rights endowed by the Creator - the Nature".

She replies, "Dad, don't worry, I will TAKE all the rights, as I believe to be mine, and run with it, no matter what!"

I wish all the parents and their daughters have frank and open conversation like this.

Cheers.

 

[renuka]

In this early 21st century also, many families treat their sons better than their daughters. Many say son is more important, and the grandson is more important than daughters and their sons! Because they keep their names and lineage alive! All those CRAP.

Lingering historical pathologies still affect their thinking, I suppose.

I always tell my daughter, "You are a wonderful person, as good and as talented as your brother is...at home or anywhere if you feel you are discriminated, just stand up and shout and put us to shame.. for your personal rights are your civil rights, the inalienable rights endowed by the Creator - the Nature".

She replies, "Dad, don't worry, I will TAKE all the rights, as I believe to be mine, and run with it, no matter what!"

I wish all the parents and their daughters have frank and open conversation like this.

Cheers.

I always had a doubt..when we Hindus are supposed to realize that We Are Not the Body why do people still get so stressed up that they need to have progeny that carry their DNA and Surname and have preference of male over a female?

Why cant we just come to this world, live in it and just leave when its time to go?

 

[renuka]

Dear Meghavarshini,

Whatever said and done..I have to give you credit for your boldness and frankness and a good topic you started.
Please do hang around Forum more cos we dont have many active female participants.

 

[meghavarshini]

Sri Sravana- Sir, how about you start a thread on "traditional roles" where you define them and urge women to accept their traditional roles and not be ambitious, earn or whatever you are against? Before you do so, please read up on Marxist Feminism. If I wanted to educate myself, I want to work, earn, maybe "run" a home, own property, recite the Vedas, be a politician, support my family and never depend on the charity of any family member, you think the Shastras would permit all of the above? Oh yeah wait, I want to be a Brahmin too but I'm a mere casteless woman(I have no Gotra either). Oh, yeah neither can I be the next Andavan Swami(not that I want to but I can certainly think of many deserving women(haha)). Neither can any woman, however saintly, in this lifetime. The RSS was against the Hindu Code Bill many years ago because it favoured women way too much(according to the Shastras, women can only own 1/8th of ancesteral property or something). I think you should discuss SOCIAL ROLES OF WOMEN IN 21st CENTURY INDIA separately, because I am dealing with rituals, such as 'Kanyadan' which commodify women in a way no religion does, while talking about equality.

 

[meghavarshini]

Like I said, I WILL NOT enter a temple while menstruating, and will continue TO DISAGREE with women who want to "sneak" in while temples have rules against it. Jain temples in Rajasthan have huge boards which urge women not to enter while menstruating. But, its wrong and we need to fight. Maybe our Gurus(SHankaracharya, Andavan Swami and suchlike) might help, they have been rather progressive at times(I believe they urged people not to take doweries etc). That will be true victory, not deceit.

 

[meghavarshini]

Sri C Ravi- You imply that men have aboulutely no role in household duties. It was My Father who dressed me, plaited my hair, fed me and bought all my clothes and(wait for it...) even choose my earring and lined my eyes with kohl! My mother had to leave early in the morning and so, my father took over a lot of the duties that are traditionally assigned to women and did quite a spendid job. He never forgot a single detail.
So, as far as career is concerned, my parents worked as quite the 'team' and my mother rose to be the first woman who... lets not get into the details. I suppose it may be "unusual" but like I said, a progressive man and an egalitarian marriage can radically alter gender biases. Like I said, convention IS NOT morality.
I REST MY CASE.

 

[Yamaka]

Like I said, I WILL NOT enter a temple while menstruating, and will continue TO DISAGREE with women who want to "sneak" in while temples have rules against it. Jain temples in Rajasthan have huge boards which urge women not to enter while menstruating. But, its wrong and we need to fight. Maybe our Gurus(SHankaracharya, Andavan Swami and suchlike) might help, they have been rather progressive at times(I believe they urged people not to take doweries etc). That will be true victory, not deceit.

Hi Megh:

So do you want to wait till the Establishment changes the Rules? Unless, you and other women stage a massive demonstration, nothing will change... only "creaking doors get oiled"...

Maybe, the Establishment doesn't know that there are women who feel hurt and humiliated by the bogus Rule! Lol

You know, what one Rosa Park - a frail middle aged woman did in the Jim Crow States of US, long time ago? She was denied of a seat at the front of the bus - but she deliberately chose to take the seat... and the rest was history; unknowingly, perhaps, she sparked the Civil Right Movement in America!

Do whatever makes sense to you... fight for your Civil Rights!

Unless women fight and assert their rights, the System will NEVER change, as many here articulated.

Best wishes.

Cheers.

Y

 

[Nara]

... Maybe our Gurus(SHankaracharya, Andavan Swami and suchlike) might help, they have been rather progressive at times(I believe they urged people not to take doweries etc).

If you ever file a civil rights case for temple entry on the grounds that untouchability is forbidden by law, these Acharyas are the ones who will fight you to keep the tradition as is.

That will be true victory, not deceit.

Openly gaining access is true victory, I agree.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Dear Meghavarshini,

I remember in a thread which was started by Sarvajit you had written a response saying Jeevatma is eternally wedded to Paramatma..i remember reading that.

Ok having said that why do you still hesitate to enter a temple or prayer room during menses..can we dislodge Paramatma from us on the days we menstruate?
No isnt it!! So why the restriction to enter a man made structure eg temple & prayer room? So I guess its a man made rule too mostly related to hygiene which is not really a concern these days with improved sanitary conditions.

 

[Nara]

.... So why the restriction to enter a man made structure eg temple & prayer room?

Renu, I don't understand why you are not able to see Megh's POV. For her, she wants to be able to enter the temple on her own terms, not under false pretenses. She wants to give the middle finger to the man made rules and I support her 100%. Why should she care to enter a place where she is told she is unwelcome on certain days, the loss is not hers as far as I am concerned.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Renu, I don't understand why you are not able to see Megh's POV. For her, she wants to be able to enter the temple on her own terms, not under false pretenses. She wants to give the middle finger to the man made rules and I support her 100%. Why should she care to enter a place where she is told she is unwelcome on certain days, the loss is not hers as far as I am concerned.

Cheers!

Dear Nara anna,

Ok agreed..so in that case we need a revolution.So who will bell the cat?

 

[Nara]

Dear Nara anna,

Ok agreed..so in that case we need a revolution.So who will bell the cat?

As a confirmed feminist, I would like the women to take the lead and I shall support them with all the might at my disposal whose testosterone is on the wane .

Cheers!

 

[meghavarshini]

Demonstrations are important, but I think one has to talk to the religious leaders before one attacks. I don't know one who lives in my city though

 

[Brahin]

Demonstrations are important, but I think one has to talk to the religious leaders before one attacks. I don't know one who lives in my city though

Where do you stay?