Thinking in English- Its been 60 years post Independence!

[happyhindu]

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This post is very specific- I talk of changing rituals, so as to suit today's climate and preserve Hinduism(yes, the show is necessary!)

Meghavarshini,

How will you preserve hinduism by changing rituals ? Do you think tribals all across the country will be willing to give up their rituals?

Please note, the most feared part of our existence is death. Appeasing spirits of dead ancestors is an integral core ritualistic theme in every tribe.

Even if you want tribals to convert to vegetarianism, they will still offer a goat, or a hen to their dead ancestors, because of fear that their dead ancestors will not be appeased if such customs are not followed.

I know of a family which claims to belong to a certain caste, but they actually follow the mala-madiga custom of offering karuvadu kulambu to dead ancestors. Quite apparently they must have been madigas just 150 years back.

So you see people tend to retain some core customs pertaining to dead ancestors even if they change caste. Obviously fear plays a big role here.

There is this fear that ancestors will not be appeased if some customs are given up. So even when families convert to other religions, they still tend to follow some such customs.

And considering the sheer variety, types and number of rituals, customs, etc followed by myriad tribes of india, how many rituals do you propose to change? Is it practically possible ?

 

[H.Krishnamurthy]

Mr. Nara sir,
You are talking of Cross breeding and claim that it is much older than Veda. Am sorry sir, I have heard a saying in villages in Ramnad district that ' Kaalai seemaiya irundha enna pasu manasu vechathan adhoda madi ganakkum ". This is the say I have heard and am much younger to Veda. ( Or are you talking of any latest Soft ware Vedha like ).
K.M.

 

[renuka]

Dear all my friends,
Am following this thread carefully for past few days.
First MEGH ( is it alright madam ) started with a bag ful of anger against injustice and discrimination in Genders.
One thing we have to have in our mind. The full respect to woman is given only in our Hinduism and not in any other religion.
Secondly Hinduism is not a religion it is way of living.
Depending upon the nature of work the communities or the Groups were made like Brahmin vysya Kshatiriya and Sudra.
The Gothras were formed not only as followers of a particular Rishi to safe guard the human community.
You know one thing madam a Female is made of 100 % feminine Cromosomes and a male is made of 50 % Feminine and 50 % Masculine cromosomes. This detail is available in Latest AAlayam magazine. Pl read and post your comment. In this the Author explains why a Girl should enter into the Boys Gothram, why not the other way. This answers to so many DNA and other latest discoveries in the Medical Science.
Have you ever discussed with people those who have performed Kashi Yatra and Gaya Srardham. There preference is given only to mother and not to any one else.
You must have read Matha pitha guru and Deivam in Hinduism only and not in any other race. Matha a female at the begining.
Shakthi paadhi sivan paadhi is also in Hinduism only.
The sacred thread Poonal on a bear top Brahmin is only to identify him as Brahmin .
The rituals and other activities, the preference is given to male. Have you ever seen the activity that is carried out in Brahminism at the burriel ground during final rites of a dead person. ( am not telling about that in modern days it is Electric crimitorium) . It was a tough one at burrial ground and our elders must have felt that a female cannot bear this pain.
Have you ever seen in Christianity or in islam that Mrs or mother of Jesus or mrs. Allah is considered for prayers. It is only in our culture that we give equal importance to Mrs Shiva or Mrs. Vishnu and Mrs. Brahma and celebrate fesivals.
Finally the no entry during Certain days for ladies. You just imagine a condition of a House Wife and her Husband , the Bread winner.
The bread winner was having Weekly off on Sundays and Practically no hectic activity on those days and it was a Rest. Where as a House wife will have more work on Sundays and as such no weekly off. She needs a rest for 3 to 4 days in a month and it is by nature she gets her quota of holidays in a month and no physical work on those days. Please donot consider the modern days of both working fast food and pizza at door step on a phone call, bcoz these rules were made in earlier days.
I may be partially correct as I don't know about the real pain experienced by a lady during pregnancy and during the Delivery.
As a Male I was saluting my mother accept the pains of my wife, my Daughter and my Sisters.
Fine any way it is not to just hurt your feeling.

Thanks K.M.

Dear Sir,
Whatever you brought up every point I agree with you but just a note of differences.In some Non Brahmin communities during menses only the prayer room is a restricted zone all other works like cooking,cleaning go on as usual.
I am suprised to note that in Brahmin community the woman get all the days off.
Menstrual cycle can range from 3 days to 7 days and I feel that way Brahmin ladies are lucky they get to rest many days in a month.

I would like some learned person to help me out here.
Among muslims after the act of sexual intercourse or even after menses there is a ritual purification bath where certain verses are recited and water poured from head to toe is a particular manner.

I know Hindus have a full head and body bath after the above 2 mentioned situations but is there a special way of bathing and also specific verses to be recited like how muslims do?

 

[Nara]

....Menstrual cycle can range from 3 days to 7 days and I feel that way Brahmin ladies are lucky they get to rest many days in a month.

Renu, this is the funniest thing of all, how many days the cycle lasts is not the concern at all, it is always three days exclusion (not supposed to even stay under the same roof), fourth day permitted inside but not allowed to cook, etc. fifth day back to normal, even if the cycle has not ended. So much for all the talk about hygiene, rest, etc.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Renu, this is the funniest thing of all, how many days the cycle lasts is not the concern at all, it is always three days exclusion (not supposed to even stay under the same roof), fourth day permitted inside but not allowed to cook, etc. fifth day back to normal, even if the cycle has not ended. So much for all the talk about hygiene, rest, etc.

Cheers!

Nara anna,

What about the other half of my post? Is there any specific mantras to be recited like how muslims have during the ritual purification bath?

 

[Nara]

...What about the other half of my post? Is there any specific mantras to be recited like how muslims have during the ritual purification bath?

Renu, The book I have on prescriptions for daily routine, Ahnika Grantam, does not specify any mantras for the bathing on the fourth and fifth day. Anyway, Brahminism does not permit women to get Vedic mantra upadesam.

There are mantras for men though. There are mantras for everything, starting from the time you rise from the bed, and the time you go to bed at night, perhaps even a mantra for male progeny before doing the homam that may precede sleeping.

Anybody who follows all these prescriptions will drive himself insane and make the life of those around him hellish. Thankfully, even the ultra-orthodox choose to be hypocrites and follow only some rules that are not too onerous/odious and ignore those that are.

Cheers!

 

[Maniya]

There is no ritual in brahminism for snaanam after 3 days.

I am not sure if women are not allowed to cook on the fourth day. I know my mother when, in her menstruating phase of her life, she used to cook food immediately after the bath.

And it is not 3 days strictly. It is only 3 nights. For ex. if your menses starts at 9 pm on Monday, you are 'theendal' only till thursday morning. You can take bath on thursday and your theendal is gone.

Even if God were to come and say "OK you can visit temples on those days", will any woman who is not comfortable with the idea go to a temple on those days? And if a 'head-strong' (JFF, no offence) girl wants to go to a temple and defy tradition, will anybody prevent her? And how many people declare they are in that state when they are in temple. And how many people don't go to temple?

Jayamala went to Sabarimala and and even touched the idol, despite not reaching menopause. She could have just kept quiet. It is her guilt that made her blurt out. Is anybody 100% sure that a menstruating woman has not gone to Sabarimala?

And I doubt women's honesty in declaring the onset of their menses. Some are smart and if they are in the midst of a religious function and their menses has set in, will they declare so immediately. They will take their sweet time.

I also want to narrate this: My friend - a female brahmin - had come to my house to see my sister's baby and we and our family members then went out for shopping. While returning, she had to pass by our house before going to her own. I insisted that she 'take' kumkum. I don't remember if she vacillated even for a second. She took kumkum and went. After a few days, I had gone to her house to 'give' me an LIC Policy on behalf of my sister. In the medical column for ladies, there was this 'Last menstruation period" column. From the date she had filled in, I came to know that it had commenced only the day before she had come to my house. I was a bit upset - one because the kumkum was 'polluted'. (The same kumkum was to be given to others. Of course I didn't tell anyone in my house about that) and second because she had come to my house 'theendal'. We follow theendal very strictly and i am so much used to that. So I felt she could have come on some other day. Especially, because she was a brahmin. But since she is very very dear to me, I didn't make it an issue with her.

Being a suspicious person (i am never sure of people's motives) by nature, I also felt, "Was she being mischievous - Were those dates that she filled in were true?"

The point is not to deride any body here. Sometimes, to save embarrassments, one has to hide truths.

And taking this up in Vijay TV will not serve any great purpose. It will only entertain (certainly) but not result in anything worthwhile.

 

[renuka]

Dear Maniya,

I have to get ready for work.Once i am at work i will reply you.
I dont know how KumKum can get polluted?What if the woman who had sold it to you had her menses and what if the person transporting it in his lorry just had a death in his family or had sex the night before and didnt take bath yet or the person who was plucking the KumKum flower was having her menses?

Nice points you brought up.See you soon.

 

[Nara]

...And it is not 3 days strictly. It is only 3 nights. For ex. if your menses starts at 9 pm

Manya, yes, you are correct. Actually, if you look at the depth to which these Brahminical religious scholars have analyzed the fine points of pollution caused by the natural female menstruation cycle, you would either be amazed, or disgusted, depending on your POV.

According to Asoucha Satakam (see Ahnika Grantham by Villivalam Krishnamachariyar, the present head of Sri Ahobila Matam), if the onset of symptom occurs during the night time, then if it is noticed before approximately 2/3rd of the way between sunset and sunrise -- unbelievably, the actual rule is even more arcane -- then the previous day gets counted as day 1, otherwise not.

The rule also specifies that if rajodarshanam -- sighting the condition -- occurs up to 12 days after three nights of one cycle starting, the resulting pollution is equal that of urinating. That is to say pollution is removed by cleansing feet and goggling. If it occurs after 12 days, but before 18 days, then pollution is removed by bathing. If it occurs after 18 days it must be considered as a new cycle -- some more confusing rules apply here, but you get the picture. All these complicated rules show how much our tradition was ignorant about our women's uterus, and that the men of our hoary tradition owned those uterus!!

Even if God were to come and say "OK you can visit temples on those days", will any woman who is not comfortable with the idea go to a temple on those days?

Once again, you speak the truth Maniya. The society has drilled these stupid and superstitious ideas into the heads of women, it is the women themselves who will defend them.

And I doubt women's honesty in declaring the onset of their menses.

Don't you think it is none of your business!!!

In the medical column for ladies, there was this 'Last menstruation period" column.

This is strange, why should LIC policy worry about this? In what earthly way could this information be useful for life insurance purpose? Even so, why would such personal information be collected without any privacy protection. Really strange indeed, not to mention a close family friend taking note of it.

Being a suspicious person (i am never sure of people's motives) by nature, I also felt, "Was she being mischievous - Were those dates that she filled in were true?"

If she was playing with your mind, then I say, good for her.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Maniya you wrote:

There is no ritual in brahminism for snaanam after 3 days.

I cant understand why is the word Brahminism used so often in the Forum?
Is it an officially declared word? As far as I know that its not listed anywhere in the text of Sanathana Dharma.Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[renuka]

Dear Maniya,

My answers are in Blue.

Even if God were to come and say "OK you can visit temples on those days", will any woman who is not comfortable with the idea go to a temple on those days?

I feel if God is in such close contact with me I dont even need to go to a Temple.When He is right in front of me why do I even need a Temple?

And I doubt women's honesty in declaring the onset of their menses.

Do we really have to tell the whole world about our private events?

 

[meghavarshini]

I agree with Happyhindu, we are certainly not alike. I know that caste is a construct, just like class and nationality but it exists and we have to weaken its influence from within,before we think about destroying it. Many people have declared that temples must be abandoned, for "God is close, who needs a temple?" I repeat myself- I AM AIMING AT NEGOTIATION With a system, a construct which cannot simply be ignored or deemed unworthy of attention. If rules seemed devoid of Reason, they must be changed, after thought and agreement. Or, Religion and traditions will be abandoned. Many religions have thus disappeared and it is our ability to adapt that keeps our religion alive.
We need spiritual leaders, they have an undeniable influence and change will be meaningful only when there is consensus, sensitivity and understanding. Religion is a collective way of life and Hinduism will be a thriving, live religion only as long as we keep it that way. A dead religion, followed without thought loses influence and credibility. I'm not saying that change must be instantaneous but we need valid arguments, justifications and Reason. Superstitions are foolish. Faith is important but needs to be guided by Logic.
For all those who comment without reading other comments- Please go through atleast the first 10 or so comments, they have been discussed.

This thread is not a competition between religions for Krishna's sake!! Islam, Christianity, Sikhism! I adress a forum of people with a certain religious background! We need to focus on the limitations of our traditions. Should we learn from others? Certainly. But kindly refrain from saying "such-and-such" religion is worse, we are so much better thank God. Self-congratulationof this kind does not become actively engaging, thinking people.
Giving up Hinduism is always an option, I know it is! But can I remain a Hindu and still demand change? Please take a moment and consider the discussion again.

 

[kunjuppu]

But can I remain a Hindu and still demand change? Please take a moment and consider the discussion again.

megh,

i think it is all upto you. if you want to consider yourself a hindu, and practice within its wide parameters, ie be selective in your practices, you can do it. there is no organized 'must do' methods or practices in hinduism, dictated by holy books or leaders.

i for one consider myself a hindu, do not have the poonal anymore, do not do any rituals, but am spiritual enough to utter a few prayers a day, visit the temple and consider myself a hindu. i do not care, if someone thinks this is insufficient to be a hindu. it is enough for me.

i think, likewise, if you do not want to consider yourself a hindu anymore, you can do that. you can be a-religous like Yamaka or Nara, an agnostic like Sangom or any other label that would suit your own unique requirements and comforts of practice.

pray let us know what you decide, when and if. thank you.

 

[sangom]

QUOTE=meghavarshini;83295]Sriman Ravi- This thread seeks to emphasize the importance of engagements and debate. One cannot be a subjectivist in such matters. In spite of opposition and disagreement, one has to critique, object and each consensus. Individual faith is one thing, but is it possible to have an egalitarian Hindu marriage ceremony without changing the mantras? Or having sacred thread ceremonies for women? Hell, maybe its too much, maybe everyone is going to give up trying to bring about change and just stick to Bhakti and registered marriages. But its worth a try. An active one at that. No priest or scholar has been able to answer my questions and I hate the sociologists' answers.[/QUOTE]

Megh,

I somehow missed this superb thread for so long and started reading the posts now. For the above posts, may I say that the hindu religious mind will take a long, long time to come to accept openly the equality of castes and genders. Without changing the mantras, it is not possible to have a really egalitarian hindu brahmin (this may be possible, for example in a Hindu Nair marriage which has hardly any mantra) marriage. The mantras are so worded. If you want we may discuss this in detail.

Sacred thread ceremony for girls (I don't think you intended grown up women) will also not be possible because the mantras envisage only a "brahmachaaree" and not a "brahmachaarinee".

 

[sangom]

Megha,

Same thing goes for gothrams. In girls only households,, I think, if gothram means something, then the children should have the option of chosing whatever gothram they want.

K, Megh,

Gothram has really no relevance today and that part of the marriage which purports to "change" (according to the actual mantras chanted it only announces rather elaborately, the gotra and 'pravara' of both the sides for 4 generations of the girl and the boy and tells that "so-and-so 'kanyaa' is being given in marriage to so-and-so groom who is the very personification of Mahavishnu") can either be completely omitted or suitably altered to make it egalitarian.

 

[sangom]

I want our esteemed and self assured readers to read the second link when their time permits.

Hari Sreenivasan is a reporter for PBS (Public Broadcasting Services in US) and you may read his biography here
Hari Sreenivasan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is the link he has written in his father's memory after performing his last rites.
http://ompower.com/sreeni/

Shri moorthy,

I wonder what makes you cast the aspersions "esteemed and self assured" in one and the same sentence! If someone else thinks that you also fall into the same honourable category because you are so self-assured about your judgment of them, is it not correct? Just think.

I have gone through the second and a very lengthy write-up, imo. Father-son relationship varies from person to person. There are cases in which the relationship is something in which there is no love lost between the two and the son just does the cremation and sanchayanam, for the sake of the community and (the latter) for the keeper of the burning ghat will complain. In the case of this person he seems to have had an abiding regard and love for his father and since he has command of language and a flair for writing he has been able to put up a lengthy write-up. Even I had similar thoughts and emotions while doing the funeral rites for my father's body but could not put up a long write-up like this. What I mean to say is that there is nothing so great or hallowed in making such publicity; it can be ego as well, manifesting this way, or, some hidden guilt feeling which is sought to be hidden in such guises.

Anyway, kindly let me know what relevance your post has to the subject matter of this thread?

 

[mskmoorthy]

Reply to post #116

I re-read the first post: The following was written -
My question is, SHOULD THE SHASTRAS BE BELIEVED WHEN THEY SAY THINGS WHICH HAVE NO RELEVANCE TODAY AT ALL? I am no "arundhati roy". I'm not urging people to dismiss religion but to engage with it.

In that context, my link provided one point of view (may be a different view point) of a respectable journalist.

Any way, I yield (I am wiling to admit my errors in my judgement) and have since deleted my post.

 

[sangom]

Reply to post #116

I re-read the first post: The following was written -
My question is, SHOULD THE SHASTRAS BE BELIEVED WHEN THEY SAY THINGS WHICH HAVE NO RELEVANCE TODAY AT ALL? I am no "arundhati roy". I'm not urging people to dismiss religion but to engage with it.

In that context, my link provided one point of view (may be a different view point) of a respectable journalist.

Any way, I yield (I am wiling to admit my errors in my judgement) and have since deleted my post.

I am sincerely sorry and apologize to you because usually no poster around here is so sensitive as to cancel/delete his post and my response to your post has made you to do that.

My only objection was to the use of both the adjectives "esteemed" and "self-assured" together. If we are not self-assured, meaning, self-confident, how are we to express any opinion as ours? We will be ever vacillating and confused, will we not? Hence that usage appeared to me to be an intended substitute (euphemism) for "self-conceited".

Shri Sreenivasan's write-up has its own literary merit but I don't know whether it relates to "engaging with religion" or whether it is simply "reflections on a father who is no more".

I apologize again and request you and Shri Praveen to reinstate that post.