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Thought of the day

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I have noticed the usage of different words to denote the son of a man...

through his lawfully wedded wife, through the wife of his elder brother, through

the wife of his younger brother and the list goes on!

Well! If every man is a saint and never approached any woman other than his own

wife, why were so many words coined in the first place to denote an offspring?

In English the word 'incest' looks very decent and acceptable! The same thing if

expressed in our Sanskrit it becomes repulsive. Why?

Man has been the same all the time. What people used to do in secrecy now they

dare to do openly. That is the only difference I see! Now you can make a

movie highlighting on Incest and win several Oscar awards in addittion

to fame and name!
:evil:
 
The stone that is rolling can gather no moss,

For master and servant oft changing is loss.

(bonus)

A well-bred dog goes out when he sees them

preparing to kick him out.
 
....In English the word 'incest' looks very decent and acceptable! The same thing if expressed in our Sanskrit it becomes repulsive. Why?
Mrs. VR, I really don't understand what you mean by "the word 'incest' looks very decent and acceptable".

I am sure I don't have to tell you that a word by itself is no more than a jumble of sound, it cannot be any more decent and acceptable than any other sound in any language Sanskrit included, or even meaningless sound like a tree falling in an uninhabited forest.

Perhaps you mean that the word can be uttered in decent company and it is accepted. There are many words that are unacceptable in polite company. The great comedian George Carlin's seven dirty words sketch caused him lot of legal trouble. For these, polite society has equivalent euphemisms. Further, some words that were perfectly fine for polite company, over time became unmentionable. One such word is the f word for passing gas, at one time it simply meant ladies powdering up.

But, the most important of all, just because it is acceptable to utter a word in polite company does not mean what the word represents is "decent and acceptable". Take the word "murder" for example. Just because it is a word that can be freely used without fear of impropriety does not mean what it represents is considered "decent and acceptable".

Do you really think in the west the act of incest itself considered, "decent and acceptable"? I hope you don't think that.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shree Nara,

Neither the word 'Incest' nor its meaning is acceptable and agreeable to me.

You must be able to assess my views by now.

I too believe that a woman -any woman- should not stay with a man- any man-

alone. I won't challenge the word of caution uttered by great minds of the past.

I have heard of incidents which can't be believed unless we have faith on the teller

of the incident!

Well! Cyanide will still be a poison-sugar coated or otherwise!

with warm regards,
V.R.

P.S. I got outraged thinking that in a society which accepts homosexuality as

'right' and a 'human-right', Incest will be treated very lightly!
 
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Neither the word 'Incest' nor its meaning is acceptable and agreeable to me.
Mrs VR., words are just that, uttering the word won't sting -- நெருப்புன்னா நாக்கு சுடாது. You are not alone in disliking the act the word describes. In the west incest is a serious crime. What we in Tamil Nadu consider a birth-right, namely a man to have the privilege of first refusal of his own sister's daughter's hand in marriage, is a crime in the west. Then there is of course a plethora of cousins marrying. With so much baggage on our backs, let us refrain from making sweeping statements, that are false to boot, about the west, please. There is a lot to criticize the west about, not this one!

I too believe that a woman -any woman- should not stay with a man- any man- alone. I won't challenge the word of caution uttered by great minds of the past.
Manu is not a great mind, if he was one, then our society was made up of men acting as beasts, and women are no more than mere game.


P.S. I got outraged thinking that in a society which accepts homosexuality as 'right' and a 'human-right', Incest will be treated very lightly!
You are wrong on both counts.

  1. In the west, the fight about homosexuality is not whether it is a right or not, but on offering equal protection of the law for everyone irrespective of who they sleep with.
  2. Incest is not treated lightly at all, unlike the society from which we hail.
Cheers!
 
..... and the Brahmins want to glorify this kind of writing in our scriptures?
Yes Revathi, this is my pain too. Every few months somebody will come along and claim Manu Dharmashastra (MDS) is a wonderful text and those who criticize it are haters etc., etc. Among the favorite things these neo-Brahminists like to state is Brahminhood does not come from birth, a Brahmin is one who sees Brhman. If so, what does it mean when MDS says that a twice-born must take only a woman of the same caste for his first wife, as in verse 12 of Chapter 3.

Verse 12
सवर्णाग्रे द्विजातीनां प्रशस्ता दारकर्मणि ।
कामतस्तु प्रवृत्तानामिमाः स्युः क्रमशोऽवराः ॥
For the first marriage of twice-born men (wives) of equal caste are recommended; but for those who through desire proceed (to marry again) the following females, (chosen) according to the (direct) order (of the castes), are most approved.
So, a Brahmin must take only a Brahmin girl for his first wife. If Brahminhood does not come from birth, who would a Brahmin girl be? How do you determine whether a girl is of equal jAti unless by birth?

Next, the verses that follow this one talks about how a woman may marry into a higher varna, but not lower down the order. Two things are clear from this, (i) varna, as described by MDS, is a hierarchical system with the Brahmins on top of the structure and Shudra at the bottom, and (ii) even if you see Brhman, you may find a need for more wives, and this person, who can see Brhman, can take any number of women as his wives, irrespective of varna, just as long as his first wife is a Brahmin.

Having prescribed the rules for taking multiple wives from all varnas, inexplicably, MDS goes on to warn a Brahmana of what may result from such unions.

Verse 17
शूद्रां शयनमारोप्य ब्राह्मणो यात्यधोगतम् ।
जनयित्वा सुतं तस्यां ब्राह्मण्यादेव हियते ॥

A Brahmana who takes a Sudra wife to his bed, will (after death) sink into hell; if he begets a child by her, he will lose the rank of a Brahmana.
Does this make any sense at all, please? First, MDS says it is alright for a Brahmin to take a Shudra woman as his wife, as long as she is not the first wife. Then, it states that if you take her to bed you will sink into hell after death. But, your very rank as a Brahmin will be lost if she produces a male child for you!!!

Whatever convoluted justification one many come up with for this, it is clear that for MDS, Brahminhood is nothing more than a rank that will come into jeopardy if his Shudra wife, who is not his first, produces a son, daughters are apparently no problem.

Verses 55 to 60 of Chapter 3 of MDS do say women of a household must be honored. Neo-Brahminists love to cite these verses and make a sweeping claim that only Brahmin-haters twist MDS to claim it is misogynistic. But, a little bit of unbiased reflection will show:

  • these verses are not about treating women with respect, but to honor some of them in a traditional sense -- otherwise men won't receive their just rewards performing religious rites.
  • In an indirect way, these verses place added responsibility for the welfare of the family upon these women.
  • a few verses that say women must be honored cannot erase all the other that are noxious to women. This sack contains rice alright, but it is also crawling with many worms.
The truth is, Hindu religion itself will be better off by getting rid of Brahminism that has MDS as the central organizing constitution. Brahmins must shed their exclusivity/superior mindset and join the rest of humanity on equal footing for their own good. This is possible only if MDS/Brahminism is rejected outright, without ambiguity.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shree. Nara,

May be I don't know as much about the west, as I thought I knew.

Words can't burn but the thoughts accompanying the words can!

Words without thoughts will never to heaven go!
:pray:
Words with thoughts will reach their target, have no doubts.
:flame:

Thanks for sharing your valuable views.

with warm regards,
V.R.
 
Respectable members,

Greetings. Personally I don't have any good regards for Manu Dharma Sashtras. I oppose caste feelings and caste based discriminations.

Sri.Nara said -

The truth is, Hindu religion itself will be better off by getting rid of Brahminism that has MDS as the central organizing constitution. Brahmins must shed their exclusivity/superior mindset and join the rest of humanity on equal footing for their own good.
Sri.Nara Sir, Greetings. You sound as if only caste brahmins follow brahminism. (By the way, when I say 'caste brahmin', I want to make sure everyone understands I talk about the caste; I don't want anyone 'misunderstanding' that I may be talking about Varna. I already said few times about my thoughts WRT to varnas; I am not going into that again). In Tamil Nadu, today, brahminism is followed mostly by Non-Brahmin high caste Hindus. If in doubt, recollect your memories, 'India untouched'. So, don't try to hang 'brahminism' exclusively on caste brahmin's neck, please.

Why shouldn't a caste brahmin feel superior? When most caste's have reservation for education, employment, relaxation in age limit for employment entry, preference in promotions....I think I covered almost everything....caste brahmin has no such concessions. Inspite of all these, if and when a caste brahmin triumphs, he/she has all the right to feel superior. Joining the humanity has nothing to do with taking pride in acheivements.

Cheers!
 
Very valid points Mr. Raghy! :thumb:
Actually we are far more lenient than the other castes. :welcome:

That is why every other I.C.M involves a brahmin boy/girl.

I don't want to talk about the threats and honor killings again!

with warm regards,
V.R.
 
Respectable members,

Greetings. Personally I don't have any good regards for Manu Dharma Sashtras. I oppose caste feelings and caste based discriminations.

Sri.Nara said -

Sri.Nara Sir, Greetings. You sound as if only caste brahmins follow brahminism. (By the way, when I say 'caste brahmin', I want to make sure everyone understands I talk about the caste; I don't want anyone 'misunderstanding' that I may be talking about Varna. I already said few times about my thoughts WRT to varnas; I am not going into that again). In Tamil Nadu, today, brahminism is followed mostly by Non-Brahmin high caste Hindus. If in doubt, recollect your memories, 'India untouched'. So, don't try to hang 'brahminism' exclusively on caste brahmin's neck, please.

Why shouldn't a caste brahmin feel superior? When most caste's have reservation for education, employment, relaxation in age limit for employment entry, preference in promotions....I think I covered almost everything....caste brahmin has no such concessions. Inspite of all these, if and when a caste brahmin triumphs, he/she has all the right to feel superior. Joining the humanity has nothing to do with taking pride in acheivements.

Cheers!

Shri Raghy,

Though you have posed to Q to Shri Nara, please do permit to post my PoV in this regard.

I think it is not the pride for achievements that Shri Nara is talking about - It is the supremacy (it may besome or many - I do not want to quantify in the absence of statistics) that we assume because of our birth in certain sect.Pride because of achievements is different from the false supremacy quoting our ancient scriptures .
Also why should we bother about other caste? What they do is wrong - But does not justify our behaviour- does it?

Regards
Revathi
 
....Also why should we bother about other caste? What they do is wrong - But does not justify our behaviour- does it?
Dear Revathi, thank you for answering on my behalf, much appreciated.

I am acutely aware that Brahminism is followed not just by Brahmins. This is why I try to be careful and use terms like Brahminist, by which I refer to people who subscribe to varna theory. A few months back we had a Brahminist among our midst arguing for MDS, among other things more or less equally abominable, who was a proud Gaundar or something.

Yet, it is undeniable that the Brahmins offer religious and intellectual justification for the caste system. Therefore, even if they are not directly involved in the atrocities against Dalits and don't get their hands dirty, they bear the primary responsibility for discrediting the concept of varna.

Cheers!
 
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Chapter 3 of MDS goes on and on and on about Brahmin this and Brahmin that. It is all about how great it is to serve a Brahmana. Needless to say, there are some nuggets in there, what kind of nugget will be obvious below.

Verse 116
भुक्तवत्स्व थ विप्रेषु स्वेषु भृत्येषु चैव हि ।
भुञ्जीयातां ततः पश्चादवशिष्टं तु दम्पती ॥
After the Brahmanas, the kinsmen, and the servants have dined, the householder and his wife may afterwards eat what remains.
A householders must provide food for others before eating themselves, that is good advice. But even this seemingly benign advice comes with loads of caveats, a Brahmin must be fed first, then only even Kshatriyas can eat. A broad array of people can't even look when a Brahmana eats. Vaishya and Shudra must eat with the servants and outcasts and Chandalas must be fed along with dogs and other critters. Let me give just one example of these caveat verses.

Verse 112
वैश्यशूद्रावपि प्राप्तौ कुटुम्बेऽतिथिध्र्मिणौ ।
भोजयेत्सह भृत्यैस्तावानृशंस्यं प्रयोजयन् ॥

Even a Vaisya and a Sudra who have approached his house in the manner of guests, he may allow to eat with his servants, showing (thereby) his compassionate disposition.
Chapter 3 ends with a bunch of peculiar shlokas about what sort of food offerings will make our ancestors satisfied. I will simply give the English translation for these verses from sacred-texts.com. I do have the original Sanskrit shlokas if anybody is interested. This should put to rest the notion that Brahmins were vegetarians, but it won't, I know that.

Verse 267
The ancestors of men are satisfied for one month with sesamum grains, rice, barley, masha beans, water, roots, and fruits, which have been given according to the prescribed rule,
Verse 268
Two months with fish, three months with the meat of gazelles, four with mutton, and five indeed with the flesh of birds,
Verse 269
Six months with the flesh of kids (षण्मासांश्छागमाम्सेन), seven with that of spotted deer, eight with that of the black antelope, but nine with that of the (deer called) Ruru, (note: Chaga = lamb or goat per online Sanskrit dictionary)
Verse 270
Ten months they are satisfied with the meat of boars and buffaloes, but eleven months indeed with that of hares and tortoises,
Verse 271
One year with cow-milk and milk-rice; from the flesh of a long-eared white he-goat their satisfaction endures twelve years.
Verse 272
The (vegetable called) Kalasaka, (the fish called) Mahasalka, the flesh of a rhinoceros and that of a red goat, and all kinds of food eaten by hermits in the forest serve for an endless time.​
 
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Everyone IS ignorant of different subjects.

The person who asks a question remains ignorant only for five

minutes - till he gets the answer.

The person who remains quiet with a complacent smile - feigning

wisdom - remains ignorant for life.
:moony:
 
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Sow.Revathi,

Greetings. You contributed
....Also why should we bother about other caste? What they do is wrong - But does not justify our behaviour- does it?
to my contribution as quoted
In Tamil Nadu, today, brahminism is followed mostly by Non-Brahmin high caste Hindus. If in doubt, recollect your memories, 'India untouched'. So, don't try to hang 'brahminism' exclusively on caste brahmin's neck, please.
Now, which part of my message 'justify's 'our' behaviour? I suppose you mean 'caste brahmins' when you say 'our'. When I refer to 'brahminism', I am bound to include everyone who follows 'Brahminism'. Unlike Sri.Nara, I have no problem pointing out the mistakes of other castes while pointing out the mistakes of caste brahmins. All I said was 'don't try to hang brahminism' exclusively on caste brahmins. That does not justify caste brahmin's behaviour, does it? I know you understood my initial post very well; I just wanted to show, I understand my post too. You said what other NB high caste hindus are doing is wrong; let us hear Sri.Nara say that, please.

I talk about 'brahminism'. I have no axe to grind against caste brahmins. So, when I talk about 'brahminism', I will include all the castes following brahminism, as of today. I am not so interested in beating a 'dead horse'. Caste based discriminations are done by high caste NBs as of today, more than the caste brahmins. If you are serious about opposing 'brahminism', you should address that. But if you are only interested in bashing caste brahmins, I understand, it is a fashion; just go ahead.

By the way, I know exactly what Sri.Nara is talking about. I don't think it was necessasary for you to say that on behalf of Sri.Nara. Thanks, anyway.


It is the supremacy (it may besome or many - I do not want to quantify in the absence of statistics) that we assume because of our birth in certain sect.
Sow.Revathi, kindly don't use the word 'we' liberally, please. You may have evidence for caste brahmins exhibiting caste based supremacy; I have experiences of orthodox caste brahmins not having any such caste based supremacy at all. Not isolated incidents; day in day out daily occurances.

Cheers!
 
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Sow.Revathi,

Greetings. You contributed to my contribution as quoted Now, which part of my message 'justify's 'our' behaviour? I suppose you mean 'caste brahmins' when you say 'our'. When I refer to 'brahminism', I am bound to include everyone who follows 'Brahminism'. Unlike Sri.Nara, I have no problem pointing out the mistakes of other castes while pointing out the mistakes of caste brahmins. All I said was 'don't try to hang brahminism' exclusively on caste brahmins. That does not justify caste brahmin's behaviour, does it? I know you understood my initial post very well; I just wanted to show, I understand my post too. You said what other NB high caste hindus are doing is wrong; let us hear Sri.Nara say that, please.

I talk about 'brahminism'. I have no axe to grind against caste brahmins. So, when I talk about 'brahminism', I will include all the castes following brahminism, as of today. I am not so interested in beating a 'dead horse'. Caste based discriminations are done by high caste NBs as of today, more than the caste brahmins. If you are serious about opposing 'brahminism', you should address that. But if you are only interested in bashing caste brahmins, I understand, it is a fashion; just go ahead.

By the way, I know exactly what Sri.Nara is talking about. I don't think it was necessasary for you to say that on behalf of Sri.Nara. Thanks, anyway.


Sow.Revathi, kindly don't use the word 'we' liberally, please. You may have evidence for caste brahmins exhibiting caste based supremacy; I have experiences of orthodox caste brahmins not having any such caste based supremacy at all. Not isolated incidents; day in day out daily occurances.

Cheers!


Sorry for interfering in between your conversation with Shri Nara since you seem to knowing Shri Nara better. But I had serious contention in your use of pride in your post as against supremacy mentioned by Shri Nara.This is according to my interpretation of individual posts of yours and that of Shri Nara.That is it.(May be you may mean differently, but as a third party reader with limited English Knowledge, this is my interpretation)

In the same breadth, I will put my PoV in this forum not as an answer to your post , but as my PoV and then keep quiet: (I do not expect any answers nor will I answer)

But if you are only interested in bashing caste brahmins, I understand, it is a fashion; just go ahead.

If pointing out the mistakes and what is hated by most of other other hindus and what I see day in day out among the Brahmins is bashing caste brahmins, so be it! Also, did I bash at all in the conventional sense l! It is also fashionable to say "it is a fashion" just because you do not agree with my views.

Sow.Revathi, kindly don't use the word 'we' liberally, please. You may have evidence for caste brahmins exhibiting caste based supremacy; I have experiences of orthodox caste brahmins not having any such caste based supremacy at all. Not isolated incidents; day in day out daily occurances.

Unfortunately There is only "We" for all kind of inclusions in English .I did not meant you to be included necessarily.I meant people of similar experience.My English is limited and communication ability is to certain extent only.If you choose not to include you, it is your right.

Just because you have seen many people that are good, does not mean that you have not seen the other way also.No body said all Tamil Brahmins are feeling superior.But you cannot deny the fact that the other kind of behaviour is not all rampant and negligible.

Thats it Sir. I will not interfere in your conv with Shri Nara.

Happy new Year!

Regards
Revathi
 
Sorry for interfering in between your conversation with Shri Nara since you seem to knowing Shri Nara better.
Revathi, from the comments you have made and that made by Mr. Raghy, I can say you have qualitatively much better understanding of what I am saying, I should know as this seems to be about me!!!

I welcome your comments, do come in when you want to say something, that will only be appreciated, at least by me.

Cheers!
 
By the way, I know exactly what Sri.Nara is talking about. I don't think it was necessasary for you to say that on behalf of Sri.Nara. Thanks, anyway.
Mr. Raghy, from what you have written here so far, I have to say you exhibit a complete and total misunderstanding of what I am discussing. So, your statement, "I know exactly what Sri.Nara is talking about" says to me you don't know what you don't know.

You said what other NB high caste hindus are doing is wrong; let us hear Sri.Nara say that, please.
Mr. Raghy I have no obligation to say what you think I must say. All your protestations seem to emanate from this single paragraph from many posts I have made so far on MDS.
The truth is, Hindu religion itself will be better off by getting rid of Brahminism that has MDS as the central organizing constitution. Brahmins must shed their exclusivity/superior mindset and join the rest of humanity on equal footing for their own good. This is possible only if MDS/Brahminism is rejected outright, without ambiguity.
From this you derived "So, don't try to hang 'brahminism' exclusively on caste brahmin's neck, please." Your conclusion is a complete non sequitur. But I know I can't get very far arguing with you. So, I will leave it to the folks of this forum to come to whatever conclusion they want.

Many people like to say MDS is a dead horse and what is the point of beating a dead horse. But the same people continue to push MDS is a righteous text worthy of our reverence and those who criticize it are haters of some sort. The very recent posts by tnkesaven is a standing example of this. My attempt to expose this whitewashing of MDS is not beating a dead horse, but exposing the sophistry of Brahminists.

Part of this sophistry is to obfuscate varna and caste. Mr. Raghy, you push the notion that there is something called caste brahmin different from Varna. I have no idea where you and others like you get this idea, but this position cannot be defended except as a personal pet theory. Of course, there can be no argument against pet theories.

Whatever the roots of varna may be, however varna may have been practiced in the hoary past, today, varna and caste are inseparably linked. There is no practical way to de-link the two. Any attempt to separate the two and glorify varna will have no other effect than to further inflate the Brahmin's monumental ego.

I have no interest in arguing some peripheral issues of the type, he said this, he said that. I want to present what MDS is really like, so that the ever persistent defenders of MDS are kept at bay. So, Mr. Raghy, I won't respond to any personal attacks from you.

Cheers!
 
Only an ardent devotee can understand and experience the bliss of oneness with God. Sugar tastes bitter to a person suffering from malaria. The defect lies in their tongue, not in the sugar. So is the case with a person immersed in worldly desires. If you are immersed in it, you cannot experience the sweetness of Divinity. Have the firm conviction “God is in me, with me, around me, behind me.” When you think on these lines, you become divine. Never entertain the thought that you are separate from God.

- Divine Discourse, 25 Dec 1988.



Laziness is rust and dust; realisation is rest and best. - Baba
 
Chapter 4 of MDS

Chapter 4 of MDS deals with how a Grahasta Brahmana must lead his life. It has some good stuff such as the following:

  • Verse 2: A Brahmana must seek a means of subsistence which either causes no, or at least little pain (to others), and live (by that) except in times of distress.
  • Verse 12: He who desires happiness must strive after a perfectly contented disposition and control himself; for happiness has contentment for its root, the root of unhappiness is the contrary (disposition).
Even here, notice the loophole in verse #2 -- except in times of distress, a double-decker bus can be driven through this loophole!

However, in spite of the few verses that seem quite reasonable, this chapter also is no exception, it is replete with lots of put downs of Shudras and women, silly restrictions, pointless advice, and one interesting shloka that makes a comparison some DK people are said to make.

Examples of silly stuff:

  • Verse 43: Let him not eat in the company of his wife, nor look at her, while she eats, sneezes, yawns, or sits at her ease.
  • Verse 52: The intellect of (a man) who voids urine against a fire, the sun, the moon, in water, against a Brahmana, a cow, or the wind, perishes.
Examples of silly and pointless restrictions:

  • Verse 205: A Brahmana must never eat (a dinner given) at a sacrifice that is offered by one who is not a Srotriya, by one who sacrifices for a multitude of men, by a woman, or by a eunuch.
  • Verse 220: The food of a physician (is as vile as) pus, that of an unchaste woman (equal to) semen, that of a usurer (as vile as) ordure, and that of a dealer in weapons (as bad as) dirt.
Brahmin doctors note, according to MDS, your food is like pus.

Examples of hatred against Shudra


  • Verse 61: Let him not dwell in a country where the rulers are Sudras, nor in one which is surrounded by unrighteous men, nor in one which has become subject to heretics, nor in one swarming with men of the lowest castes.
  • Verse 80: Let him not give to a Sudra advice, nor the remnants (of his meal), nor food offered to the gods; nor let him explain the sacred law (to such a man), nor impose (upon him) a penance.
  • Verse 81: For he who explains the sacred law (to a Sudra) or dictates to him a penance, will sink together with that (man) into the hell (called) Asamvrita.
  • Verse 99: Let him not recite (the texts) indistinctly, nor in the presence of Sudras; nor let him, if in the latter part of the night he is tired with reciting the Veda, go again to sleep.
  • Verse 245: A Brahmana who always connects himself with the most excellent (ones), and shuns all inferior ones, (himself) becomes most distinguished; by an opposite conduct he becomes a Sudra.
And then there is this about learned Brahmana and snake:

  • Verse 135: Let him who desires prosperity, indeed, never despise a Kshatriya, a snake, and a learned Brahmana, be they ever so feeble.
  • Verse 136: Because these three, when treated with disrespect, may utterly destroy him; hence a wise man must never despise them.
This is not exactly what Brahmins accuse DK people as saying, but the similarity is striking.

Cheers!
 
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I would like to add a few things wrt to the posts by Shri Nara.

1) Wrt post # 357:
According to Manusmrithi 3.12, a brahmin can take a shudra wife but not as the first wife. And according to Manusmrithi 10.64, such children become brahmins within the seventh generation. Apparently banabhatta, a court poet of king harshavardhana in the 7th century had 2 step-brothers born of a shudra mother; and they were not considered outcastes. Possibly the diktats of MDS were not followed in certain regions.

Some say a large part of chapter 3 (including verse 17) was interloped into MDS at a later time period. But no one knows if that is true. Irrespective of whether it is true or false, anyways i think it makes no sense to justify MDS (for anyone to follow) in this present day age and time..

2) Wrt post # 364:
It is evident from the smrithis that brahmins / dvijas consumed non-vegetarian food and practiced homams / havans. On the other hand, according to a book by Stephen Laumakis, the dasyus were vegetarians and engaged in ascetic practices and yogic meditation. Asceticm apparently was not present in the vedic religion. The dasyus (supposedly nagas / asuras / later shudras) were 'priestless' (has no yajnas) and anyone cud become a yogi or a shaman. So vegetarianism was a dasyu practice.

According to research by George Hart, the brahmins who arrived in tamilakam adopted vegetarianism. It may therefore seem that brahmins who came to tamilakam adopted a dasyu practice.

3) Wrt post # 371:
The verses quoted reg hatered against shudras are too few !!

Regards.
 
Chapter 5

Chapter 5 continues with the same pattern, some good advice quite a lot of silly stuff, and some really obnoxious ones. The chapter ends with a bunch of rules for how women must conduct themselves. When people say MDS requires women to be honored, what they mean is those women who follow these rules need to be honored, not others.

This chapter starts out with rules for what to eat and what not to eat. Garlic and onion are out, so are bunch of other stuff for no rhyme or reason. Meat is alright except that of one-hoofed animals, carnivorous birds and some other animals. You may be surprised to note, it seems even alcoholic drinks are allowed. I give below some selected verses.

  • #18: The porcupine, the hedgehog, the iguana, the rhinoceros, the tortoise, and the hare they declare to be eatable; likewise those (domestic animals) that have teeth in one jaw only, excepting camels.
  • #33: A twice-born man who knows the law, must not eat meat except in conformity with the law; for if he has eaten it unlawfully, he will, unable to save himself, be eaten after death by his (victims).
  • #56: There is no sin in eating meat, in (drinking) spirituous liquor, and in carnal intercourse, for that is the natural way of created beings, but abstention brings great rewards.

The next section of this chapter is about pollution, its duration, and what removes the pollution. No particular reason is given for any of it. Most rules are quite silly. As in other chapters, hatred for Shudra comes through loud and clear.

  • #104: Let him not allow a dead Brahmana to be carried out by a Sudra, while men of the same caste are at hand; for that burnt-offering which is defiled by a Sudra's touch is detrimental to (the deceased's passage to) heaven.
  • #99: (At the end of the period of impurity) a Brahmana who has performed the necessary rites, becomes pure by touching water, a Kshatriya by touching the animal on which he rides, and his weapons, a Vaisya by touching his goad or the nose-string (of his oxen), a Sudra by touching his staff.
  • #130: The mouth of a woman is always pure, likewise a bird when he causes a fruit to fall; a calf is pure on the flowing of the milk, and a dog when he catches a deer.
  • #131: Manu has declared that the flesh (of an animal) killed by dogs is pure, likewise (that) of a (beast) slain by carnivorous (animals) or by men of low caste (Dasyu), such as Kandalas.
  • #140: Sudras who live according to the law, shall each month shave (their heads); their mode of purification (shall be) the same as that of Vaisyas, and their food the fragments of an Aryan's meal.
What a load of bovine ordure.

The best is saved for the last. A woman must remain dependent upon a man all through her life, and she must revere her husband even if he is a good for nothing wagabond. In an earlier chapter MDS says a household must honors its women, it is these women it is talking about. If you are a woman with the ailment called independence or afflicted with a mind of your own, sorry, you are not included.

  • 148. In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, when her lord is dead to her sons; a woman must never be independent.
  • 154. Though destitute of virtue, or seeking pleasure (elsewhere), or devoid of good qualities, (yet) a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife.
  • 157. At her pleasure let her emaciate her body by (living on) pure flowers, roots, and fruit; but she must never even mention the name of another man after her husband has died.
  • 167. A twice-born man, versed in the sacred law, shall burn a wife of equal caste who conducts herself thus and dies before him, with (the sacred fires used for) the Agnihotra, and with the sacrificial implements.
  • 168. Having thus, at the funeral, given the sacred fires to his wife who dies before him, he may marry again, and again kindle (the fires).
There you have it, so much for how great women are treated in MDS!!!!
 
Those who are immersed in selfishness, egotism, greed, vice, violence and unrighteousness will suffer from evil urges in their last days and destroy themselves. The virtuous attain Kaivalya or Self-Realisation; the unrighteous achieve only Naraka, hell. The eye of the onlooker sees the same consummation: death. But the goal reached by either is distinct; it is invisible to those around them. The goal is determined by the thoughts that arise in the mind during one’s last moments. Cessation of life is common. Darshan of God is something to be won, and earned. That is unique. Hence the proverb, ‘Vinaasa Kaale, vipareetha buddhi’: When disaster is immanent, the intellect turns perverted! Only those who are about to be destroyed will get and welcome evil intentions. Those who are to be bles sed with the vision of God will hold fast to the pure and the elevating in their last thoughts.

- Bhagavatha Vahini, Chap 42, "Consummation in Nanda-Nandana".

Selfless Service is the fastest way to reach God. - Baba
 
If you crave for the fruit of your acts at every step, you are overpowered by passion. If the fruit is not available, then, gradually, laxity and disgust overpower the spiritual aspirant and the repetition of the Name and meditation slowly dry up. This is the restless, passionate, rajasic path. For some, the Lord comes to memory only in times of danger or acute suffering or when one is the victim of loss or pain. At such times, such a person prays and vows to arrange ritualistic worship (puja), offer some particular food, or build a temple to the Lord, etc. One calculates the quantity of food placed before the Lord, the tribute offered at His feet, the number of prostrations performed, and the number of times he/she went around the shrine and then asks for proportionate rewards! For those who adopt this attitude in meditation, a nd follow the dull, tamasic path, the mind and intellect can never be pure.

- Dhyana Vahini, Chap 2, Chanting God's Name and Meditation.

Faith in your Self is the expression of Divine. - Baba
 
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