-
This forum contains old posts that have been closed. New threads and replies may not be made here. Please navigate to the relevant forum to create a new thread or post a reply.
-
Welcome to Tamil Brahmins forums.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our Free Brahmin Community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact contact us.
What castes are the converts?
- Thread starter KRS
- Start date
- Status
Brahmanyan
Active member
What Castes are the Converts?
Dear Sri KRS.,
I appreciate and agree with your views on the subject fully. Interestingly I find answers or explanations to many of the doubts that come to our minds in our spiritual pursuit have already discussed in detail by our Sages and Acharyas years ago. All we have to do is to travel on the path paved by them for us. They have left volumes of very valuable literatures in the form of Dharsanas and Bhashyams. Unfortunately our Libraries do not have them readily available for us. On the other hand many of our valuable ancient literature are collected and kept for reading in foreign Universities and libraries. Foreigners who take special interest in knowing our Dharma, study them and repeat them in their books for our reading. Our attitude towards knowledge gathering is poor. Some time back (2004) the famous "Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institure", Pune, which is the repository of ancient Sanskrit literature, was vandalised by some "brigade" for political reasons! Many people in our Country may not even be aware of this incident. If you go to "Saraswathi Mahal Library" in Tanjavur you will see the appalling condition under which our Scholars do valuable but thankless job of copying writings from palm leaves.
I am sorry I have digressed from the main thread started by your good self.
Namaskarams,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri KRS.,
I appreciate and agree with your views on the subject fully. Interestingly I find answers or explanations to many of the doubts that come to our minds in our spiritual pursuit have already discussed in detail by our Sages and Acharyas years ago. All we have to do is to travel on the path paved by them for us. They have left volumes of very valuable literatures in the form of Dharsanas and Bhashyams. Unfortunately our Libraries do not have them readily available for us. On the other hand many of our valuable ancient literature are collected and kept for reading in foreign Universities and libraries. Foreigners who take special interest in knowing our Dharma, study them and repeat them in their books for our reading. Our attitude towards knowledge gathering is poor. Some time back (2004) the famous "Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institure", Pune, which is the repository of ancient Sanskrit literature, was vandalised by some "brigade" for political reasons! Many people in our Country may not even be aware of this incident. If you go to "Saraswathi Mahal Library" in Tanjavur you will see the appalling condition under which our Scholars do valuable but thankless job of copying writings from palm leaves.
I am sorry I have digressed from the main thread started by your good self.
Namaskarams,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Brahmanyan
My apologies for my intervention in your discussion with Sri KRS. You have pointe out that our valuable ancient literature are collected and kept for reading in foreign Universities and libraries. Some interested the foreigners study them is a matter of solace for us when compared to the vandalism indulged by our own Indian brethern in our own country.
While on this I recollect a diologue I have had with a surgeon about twelve years ago. He said that Sushruta Shruti contained certain procedure for surgery for treating fistula with supporting digrams and sketches. (He showed me the book containing the ancient diagrams and the procedure.) This was translated in German by the German surgeons and from them the world found that this was the simplest and most effective procedure for treatment of surgery saving much time in the surgery, arrest of blood loss and 100 % sure success. Before they stumbled upon this they used different procedures and many lives were lost and due to failure in the surgery, many patients had committed suicide. Sushruta lived during 4th century BCE. So much treasure is there in our ancient literature. Alas, we are unable to preserve and use them to the best advantage of mankind, due to disunity and ignorance.
Bhogar's work on Siddha medicine is lost.
Why I chose to intervene and say all these is to highlight that our wealth had not only been in philosophy but in science - medical, astronomy, mathematics and the like.
Namaskarams
Appaiah
My apologies for my intervention in your discussion with Sri KRS. You have pointe out that our valuable ancient literature are collected and kept for reading in foreign Universities and libraries. Some interested the foreigners study them is a matter of solace for us when compared to the vandalism indulged by our own Indian brethern in our own country.
While on this I recollect a diologue I have had with a surgeon about twelve years ago. He said that Sushruta Shruti contained certain procedure for surgery for treating fistula with supporting digrams and sketches. (He showed me the book containing the ancient diagrams and the procedure.) This was translated in German by the German surgeons and from them the world found that this was the simplest and most effective procedure for treatment of surgery saving much time in the surgery, arrest of blood loss and 100 % sure success. Before they stumbled upon this they used different procedures and many lives were lost and due to failure in the surgery, many patients had committed suicide. Sushruta lived during 4th century BCE. So much treasure is there in our ancient literature. Alas, we are unable to preserve and use them to the best advantage of mankind, due to disunity and ignorance.
Bhogar's work on Siddha medicine is lost.
Why I chose to intervene and say all these is to highlight that our wealth had not only been in philosophy but in science - medical, astronomy, mathematics and the like.
Namaskarams
Appaiah
Last edited:
Dear Sri Brahmanyan Ji and Sri Appaiah Ji,
I appreciate both of your inputs. Nothing is out of bounds, here.
One of the reasons that our culture in general is today far removed from our original roots is that unfortunately our forefathers did not care to record many things for the posterity in writing. History as well was not recorded properly with correct dates, following the Hindu reckoning of time and space.
Because ours was an oral tradition exclusively, a lot of things got lost. We all know about the experiment where a person tells one thing to a person and after passing this information through a sequential human chain, a totally different message from the original one appears at the end!
Perhaps, one of the initiatives that this Forum can undertake is to allocate some funds (however small) to safeguard our valuable written treasures as well as finding a common protocol to start recording events in a neutral way for posterity. Just a very broad first stage thinking aloud.
Our society was foremost in Science and Medicine at one time. We know that logical thinking and deduction and scientific exploration were a distinct part of our culture and were based on one of the six Darshanas. Somehow this branch got lost in the shuffle and the result is that the western practices filled the void where superstition and magic prevailed.
I have seen some articles relating to our ancient's efforts in these mundane disciplines, but alas, unlike Sri Appaiah's experience cited above, many of these 'researchers' claim fantastic feats by our forefathers without any proper citations. Unless we start doing a systematic scholorly studies about the various aspects of our past history, we can only make spurious claims. And in the mean time our treasures are disappearing daily.
Just my two cents.
Pranams,
KRS
I appreciate both of your inputs. Nothing is out of bounds, here.
One of the reasons that our culture in general is today far removed from our original roots is that unfortunately our forefathers did not care to record many things for the posterity in writing. History as well was not recorded properly with correct dates, following the Hindu reckoning of time and space.
Because ours was an oral tradition exclusively, a lot of things got lost. We all know about the experiment where a person tells one thing to a person and after passing this information through a sequential human chain, a totally different message from the original one appears at the end!
Perhaps, one of the initiatives that this Forum can undertake is to allocate some funds (however small) to safeguard our valuable written treasures as well as finding a common protocol to start recording events in a neutral way for posterity. Just a very broad first stage thinking aloud.
Our society was foremost in Science and Medicine at one time. We know that logical thinking and deduction and scientific exploration were a distinct part of our culture and were based on one of the six Darshanas. Somehow this branch got lost in the shuffle and the result is that the western practices filled the void where superstition and magic prevailed.
I have seen some articles relating to our ancient's efforts in these mundane disciplines, but alas, unlike Sri Appaiah's experience cited above, many of these 'researchers' claim fantastic feats by our forefathers without any proper citations. Unless we start doing a systematic scholorly studies about the various aspects of our past history, we can only make spurious claims. And in the mean time our treasures are disappearing daily.
Just my two cents.
Pranams,
KRS
R
Ramaa
Guest
Dear MMji and Appaiahji,
With reference to your discussion on uruvam and aruvam I felt it would be fit to quote Bansi Pandit:
"A human being cannot conceptualize anything without some sort of a mental image. A Hindu associates his mental image of the infinite attributes of the supreme Lord with sacred images, called Deities, and uses such images, as symbols to concentrate his mind on the worship of the Lord. Just as we associate the idea of infinity with the image of the blue sky, or the idea of holiness with a cross or a place of worship, a Hindu associates the ideas of the attributes of the SUPREME LORD, such as omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, with various sacred images and forms. Therefore, when a Hindu worships an image, he does not worship the inanimateness of the image, but rather the holiness, sacredness, purity, omnipresence, and omnipotence that are symbolized by such a sacred image."
"அருவமும் உருவமாகி அநாதியாய்ப் பலவாய் ஒன்றாய்ப்
பிர்மமாய் நின்றசோதிப் பிழம்பதோர் மேனியாகிக்
கருணைகூர் முகங்களாறும் கரமது பன்னிரண்டுங் கொண்டே
ஒருதிரு முருகனாய் ஷன்முகனாய் ஷடாக்ஷரனாய்
சரவணபவனாய் கார்த்திகேயனாய் வந்து ஆங்கு உதித்து..."
--திருப்புகழ்
With reference to your discussion on uruvam and aruvam I felt it would be fit to quote Bansi Pandit:
"A human being cannot conceptualize anything without some sort of a mental image. A Hindu associates his mental image of the infinite attributes of the supreme Lord with sacred images, called Deities, and uses such images, as symbols to concentrate his mind on the worship of the Lord. Just as we associate the idea of infinity with the image of the blue sky, or the idea of holiness with a cross or a place of worship, a Hindu associates the ideas of the attributes of the SUPREME LORD, such as omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence, with various sacred images and forms. Therefore, when a Hindu worships an image, he does not worship the inanimateness of the image, but rather the holiness, sacredness, purity, omnipresence, and omnipotence that are symbolized by such a sacred image."
"அருவமும் உருவமாகி அநாதியாய்ப் பலவாய் ஒன்றாய்ப்
பிர்மமாய் நின்றசோதிப் பிழம்பதோர் மேனியாகிக்
கருணைகூர் முகங்களாறும் கரமது பன்னிரண்டுங் கொண்டே
ஒருதிரு முருகனாய் ஷன்முகனாய் ஷடாக்ஷரனாய்
சரவணபவனாய் கார்த்திகேயனாய் வந்து ஆங்கு உதித்து..."
--திருப்புகழ்
Brahmanyan
Active member
What Castes are the converts?
Dear Sri Appaiah,
You need not feel apologetic at all, your intervention in my discussions in this forum is most welcome. It is true that our ancients have done a lot of research in various fields of activity and left valuable literature for posterity. Knowledge is not the preserve of any one community or nation. It is up to us to use them or not. Some time back I was searching for a particular book written by a research scholar relating to last "Chera Kingdom in Kodungallur". I could not get any reference about it in Indian Libraries. But surprisingly I found in the net, availability one copy of the same in an American University Library ! You will find that many good books published by "Tanjavur Saraswathi Mahal Library" or TTD, Tirupathi or the "Archeological Survey of India" will not be in stock for Sale. Most of our Libraries are an apology for the name. They seem to have stopped growing after the departure of the British. We have to depend on University Libraries, British Council or some old private libraries for getting our ancient Books, which have there own membership procedures to follow. The cost of Books have gone up to unreachable heights for retired old people like me to purchase. Thanks to the modern facilities like Free E-Books on net people like me are able to continue reading in spite of physical strain. I am sorry for venting my personal woes digressing away from the subject of the thread in the forum.
It is good Sri KRS.has started this subject, which has given a platform for fresh thinking on related subjects.
Namaskarams,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Appaiah,
You need not feel apologetic at all, your intervention in my discussions in this forum is most welcome. It is true that our ancients have done a lot of research in various fields of activity and left valuable literature for posterity. Knowledge is not the preserve of any one community or nation. It is up to us to use them or not. Some time back I was searching for a particular book written by a research scholar relating to last "Chera Kingdom in Kodungallur". I could not get any reference about it in Indian Libraries. But surprisingly I found in the net, availability one copy of the same in an American University Library ! You will find that many good books published by "Tanjavur Saraswathi Mahal Library" or TTD, Tirupathi or the "Archeological Survey of India" will not be in stock for Sale. Most of our Libraries are an apology for the name. They seem to have stopped growing after the departure of the British. We have to depend on University Libraries, British Council or some old private libraries for getting our ancient Books, which have there own membership procedures to follow. The cost of Books have gone up to unreachable heights for retired old people like me to purchase. Thanks to the modern facilities like Free E-Books on net people like me are able to continue reading in spite of physical strain. I am sorry for venting my personal woes digressing away from the subject of the thread in the forum.
It is good Sri KRS.has started this subject, which has given a platform for fresh thinking on related subjects.
Namaskarams,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Brahmanyan
Does the book on Kodungallur give any clue to the existance of christianity during the days of the last Chera King. I am eager to know.
My question arises because -
The christians have been spreading the "history" that Jesus's Apostle St Thomas landed in Kodungallur in 52 CE. And that he travelled to Mylapore and died in Chennai. And that his body was interned in St Thomas Mount, which later was named after him.
If that be the case, why did Columbus have to search the route for India in the 15th century CE? Why did Vasco-da-gama have to find the route to India and land in Calicut in 1498 CE? Even the Silk route of Marco Polo of the 13th Century CE would not hve been necessarily that difficult as it was?
If that be the case, why is not there any mention of christianity in any of the lives of the Nayanmars and Azhwars or Sri Madhwacharyar or Sri Ramanujar?
Simultaneously, some knowledgable "historians" are celebrating the 350+ years of Chennai every year burying under the carpet the existance temples of thousands of years of heritage in Mylapore, Tiruvallikeni, Tiruvanmiyur, Saidapet, Koyambedu, Velachery, Tiruvotriyur and Nanmagalam.
Last week, the Government of TN announced in the assembly, that about Rs 10 Crores have been spent in the restoration of "heritage" buildings in Chennai, namely the Chepauk Palace, the IGs office, The museum buildings etc all of which are either Nawab or British buildings. The real heritage of this Nation - the oldest temple in Chennai - Manimangalam temple had to be renovated at a few lacs from donations from the public, a few years ago. Pattinatthar Samadhi (thousand years old) is in an awful condition. there are many temples needing immediate attention.
Regards
Appaiah
Does the book on Kodungallur give any clue to the existance of christianity during the days of the last Chera King. I am eager to know.
My question arises because -
The christians have been spreading the "history" that Jesus's Apostle St Thomas landed in Kodungallur in 52 CE. And that he travelled to Mylapore and died in Chennai. And that his body was interned in St Thomas Mount, which later was named after him.
If that be the case, why did Columbus have to search the route for India in the 15th century CE? Why did Vasco-da-gama have to find the route to India and land in Calicut in 1498 CE? Even the Silk route of Marco Polo of the 13th Century CE would not hve been necessarily that difficult as it was?
If that be the case, why is not there any mention of christianity in any of the lives of the Nayanmars and Azhwars or Sri Madhwacharyar or Sri Ramanujar?
Simultaneously, some knowledgable "historians" are celebrating the 350+ years of Chennai every year burying under the carpet the existance temples of thousands of years of heritage in Mylapore, Tiruvallikeni, Tiruvanmiyur, Saidapet, Koyambedu, Velachery, Tiruvotriyur and Nanmagalam.
Last week, the Government of TN announced in the assembly, that about Rs 10 Crores have been spent in the restoration of "heritage" buildings in Chennai, namely the Chepauk Palace, the IGs office, The museum buildings etc all of which are either Nawab or British buildings. The real heritage of this Nation - the oldest temple in Chennai - Manimangalam temple had to be renovated at a few lacs from donations from the public, a few years ago. Pattinatthar Samadhi (thousand years old) is in an awful condition. there are many temples needing immediate attention.
Regards
Appaiah
Last edited:
Dear Sri KRS
Yes, We need to do something to preserve our heritage in the form of these ancient books. We need to print and publish as many as possible. At some later date this forum may itself take up some work of this nature as you say. There are the various Mathams who themselves may have a huge volume of such treasures. We may get their approval and print a good number of those books. We may presever them in digital form as well.
Bhagawan Ramana's handwritten poems have been published in print form by a devotee of him. Such works of our sages may also be printed and published. There is a lot of such work waiting to be done. We cannot be a shade of Tami Thaatthaa U.Ve.Saa. Iyer. But at least something we have to contribute to this society on this aspect.
Regards
Appaiah
Yes, We need to do something to preserve our heritage in the form of these ancient books. We need to print and publish as many as possible. At some later date this forum may itself take up some work of this nature as you say. There are the various Mathams who themselves may have a huge volume of such treasures. We may get their approval and print a good number of those books. We may presever them in digital form as well.
Bhagawan Ramana's handwritten poems have been published in print form by a devotee of him. Such works of our sages may also be printed and published. There is a lot of such work waiting to be done. We cannot be a shade of Tami Thaatthaa U.Ve.Saa. Iyer. But at least something we have to contribute to this society on this aspect.
Regards
Appaiah
Brahmanyan
Active member
What Castes are the Converts?
Dear Sri Appaiah,
I am very happy to read your post. Indeed it is providential that I found a friend who is interested in the History of "Chera Ealam" (Keralam). Though I am not from Kerala I am much interested in this part of our Country since I consider Kerala and the people of this state continue to possess the remnants of our rich Culture and traditions.
The books I had mentioned in my previous post is written by V.T.Induchoodan. They are "The Golden Tower" and "The Secret Chamber" The first book on "Tiruvanchikulam", but very well researched on the Chera Kingdom of Tamil period. The second one is about "Kodungallur Temple". I could get only the first book. Since this book deals with Chera Kingdoms prior to the advent of Christianity there is no mention of St. Thomas, the Apostle.
Well, for your question about St. Thomas my answer is yes and no. There are many Christian documents which claim that St.Thomas landed in Kodungallur in 52 AD. But we have no supporting historical documents from our (Hindu) side to support this claim. However personally I believe that St.Thomas the Apostle might have landed in Kodungallur. in 52 AD. He miight have used land route via Persia. But Vasco da Gama searched for sea route. I found some interesting support while reading the History of Armenian Merchants in Madras. One rich Armenian Merchant named Thomas Cana also known as Kahana (Priest) Thomas who landed in Malabar Coast in 780 AD, proceeded to Madras to revive Christianity founded by St. Thomas. Again it was the Armenian Merchants who found the tomb of St. Thomas and built a Church on the site in little Mount in 1523 AD. Two centuries later another Armenian Merchant "Khojah Petrus Woskan" built 160 stone steps to reach the hilltop shrine. This same merchant built the "Marmalong Bridge" across Adyar river in 1726 AD for the benefit of the pilgrims to reach the Shrine.
I have posted some information on Kodungallur in my "Indiatimes Blog". I shall be happy if you read them in the following URL:
http://o3.indiatimes.com/brahmanyan/
I am still collecting information from various sources on "Chera Ealam". I would like to share my knowledge on the same with others when I complete one phase at least.
Your last para reflects the sad state of selective preference in the maintenance of our Historical and heritage monuments. The present crop of the so called "intellectuals" and "Historians" who rewrite the History to satisfy their political masters show their lack of commitment either to the truth or evidence. But these need not worry us in our search for truth.
If more people of interested in our ancient and rich History we can start a separate thread in the Forum with the consent of moderators.
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Appaiah,
I am very happy to read your post. Indeed it is providential that I found a friend who is interested in the History of "Chera Ealam" (Keralam). Though I am not from Kerala I am much interested in this part of our Country since I consider Kerala and the people of this state continue to possess the remnants of our rich Culture and traditions.
The books I had mentioned in my previous post is written by V.T.Induchoodan. They are "The Golden Tower" and "The Secret Chamber" The first book on "Tiruvanchikulam", but very well researched on the Chera Kingdom of Tamil period. The second one is about "Kodungallur Temple". I could get only the first book. Since this book deals with Chera Kingdoms prior to the advent of Christianity there is no mention of St. Thomas, the Apostle.
Well, for your question about St. Thomas my answer is yes and no. There are many Christian documents which claim that St.Thomas landed in Kodungallur in 52 AD. But we have no supporting historical documents from our (Hindu) side to support this claim. However personally I believe that St.Thomas the Apostle might have landed in Kodungallur. in 52 AD. He miight have used land route via Persia. But Vasco da Gama searched for sea route. I found some interesting support while reading the History of Armenian Merchants in Madras. One rich Armenian Merchant named Thomas Cana also known as Kahana (Priest) Thomas who landed in Malabar Coast in 780 AD, proceeded to Madras to revive Christianity founded by St. Thomas. Again it was the Armenian Merchants who found the tomb of St. Thomas and built a Church on the site in little Mount in 1523 AD. Two centuries later another Armenian Merchant "Khojah Petrus Woskan" built 160 stone steps to reach the hilltop shrine. This same merchant built the "Marmalong Bridge" across Adyar river in 1726 AD for the benefit of the pilgrims to reach the Shrine.
I have posted some information on Kodungallur in my "Indiatimes Blog". I shall be happy if you read them in the following URL:
http://o3.indiatimes.com/brahmanyan/
I am still collecting information from various sources on "Chera Ealam". I would like to share my knowledge on the same with others when I complete one phase at least.
Your last para reflects the sad state of selective preference in the maintenance of our Historical and heritage monuments. The present crop of the so called "intellectuals" and "Historians" who rewrite the History to satisfy their political masters show their lack of commitment either to the truth or evidence. But these need not worry us in our search for truth.
If more people of interested in our ancient and rich History we can start a separate thread in the Forum with the consent of moderators.
Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Last edited:
Brahmanyan
Active member
What Castes are the Converts ?
Dear Sri Appaiah,
A good suggestion indeed. But we need funds to publish books. Instead we can ask some publishers who had already brought out ancient literature to transfer them to Digital Libraries. Digital Library of India, hosted by Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore has already started this work. Rich Temples like TTD, Tirupathi and our Mutts can take some more interest in this endeavour.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Appaiah,
A good suggestion indeed. But we need funds to publish books. Instead we can ask some publishers who had already brought out ancient literature to transfer them to Digital Libraries. Digital Library of India, hosted by Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore has already started this work. Rich Temples like TTD, Tirupathi and our Mutts can take some more interest in this endeavour.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Brahmanyan
You have given very useful information on the Thomas who had visited Chennai. Obviously the Christians are tom-tomming that this Thomas is the Apostle and are giving a wrong age as that of the first century to claim antiquity.
Like you, I also first weighed the possibility that the Apostle could have come in 52 CE by the land route. If that be the case, how come he did not touch upon the other Indian cities like the dwarka or Mumbai or Surat or Mangalore or Kozhicode which were all on the way then. why and how he could have missed the entire Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka and northern Kerala. That doesnot gel at all. It is not that India was without humans in all these places those days. The fact that Crangannore (Kodungallur) was a busy Chera Port makes it easy for them to claim hisvisit to Crangannore, that is all, as I guess.
Just some thoughts.
By the way, I read your blog My Coimbatore. Makes a very interesting reading. It will be unique in that no one has written about it the way you have. It is like what Randorguy writes in Mambalam Times these days.
As to digitalisation, I learn that some efforts are on in the Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Viswamahavidyalaya for digitalising some of the manuscripts available in the library and those in the Kanchi Matham.
Regards
Appaiah
You have given very useful information on the Thomas who had visited Chennai. Obviously the Christians are tom-tomming that this Thomas is the Apostle and are giving a wrong age as that of the first century to claim antiquity.
Like you, I also first weighed the possibility that the Apostle could have come in 52 CE by the land route. If that be the case, how come he did not touch upon the other Indian cities like the dwarka or Mumbai or Surat or Mangalore or Kozhicode which were all on the way then. why and how he could have missed the entire Gujarat, Maharashtra, Karnataka and northern Kerala. That doesnot gel at all. It is not that India was without humans in all these places those days. The fact that Crangannore (Kodungallur) was a busy Chera Port makes it easy for them to claim hisvisit to Crangannore, that is all, as I guess.
Just some thoughts.
By the way, I read your blog My Coimbatore. Makes a very interesting reading. It will be unique in that no one has written about it the way you have. It is like what Randorguy writes in Mambalam Times these days.
As to digitalisation, I learn that some efforts are on in the Kanchi Sri Chandrasekharendra Saraswati Viswamahavidyalaya for digitalising some of the manuscripts available in the library and those in the Kanchi Matham.
Regards
Appaiah
Digitization of books leads to despair. Sometime back when I was interviewed for an article in a newspaper, I tried to get an article published about the state of affairs. But I could not succeed.
Read this article.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/244649.html
A wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Book_Project
Now the shock. The actual books dumped in Internet Archive.
http://www.archive.org/details/millionbooks
But the Internet Archive has many scanned books on India and Hinduism.
Readable format in Project Gutenburg
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Hinduism_(Bookshelf)
Sorry. That has not been updated for long.
I will post in detail later. I am now using my laptop since I am still waiting for a replacement part for my computer. I do not like the laptop.
Read this article.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/244649.html
A wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Book_Project
Now the shock. The actual books dumped in Internet Archive.
http://www.archive.org/details/millionbooks
But the Internet Archive has many scanned books on India and Hinduism.
Readable format in Project Gutenburg
http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Hinduism_(Bookshelf)
Sorry. That has not been updated for long.
I will post in detail later. I am now using my laptop since I am still waiting for a replacement part for my computer. I do not like the laptop.
M
malgova.mango
Guest
Dear Sir Appaiah!
Putthandu Vazhtukkal!
What I meant as Form and Formless is not on gross level but on subtle level, Perhaps I should put it like this, Attribute and Attributeless... I couldn't think of anything Formless, meaning attributeless, characterless oR "GUNA"LESS - All the elements you asked have a specific character and attributes. Mind also have character.
When you said from "uruvam" we should go to "aruvam" - I can't understand anything.
If you meant in physical level, like fire,water , space etc... we don't need to go to Temple or worship anything , we just study the science and can easily discern it.
I've not said or enquired anything about permanent and impermanent.
So my question in this context is , Is there any "aruvam" that we need to relate and worship ? if so, for what?
Why should we go from "uruvam" to "aruvam"?
Regards
malgova.mango
Putthandu Vazhtukkal!
What I meant as Form and Formless is not on gross level but on subtle level, Perhaps I should put it like this, Attribute and Attributeless... I couldn't think of anything Formless, meaning attributeless, characterless oR "GUNA"LESS - All the elements you asked have a specific character and attributes. Mind also have character.
When you said from "uruvam" we should go to "aruvam" - I can't understand anything.
If you meant in physical level, like fire,water , space etc... we don't need to go to Temple or worship anything , we just study the science and can easily discern it.
I've not said or enquired anything about permanent and impermanent.
So my question in this context is , Is there any "aruvam" that we need to relate and worship ? if so, for what?
Why should we go from "uruvam" to "aruvam"?
Regards
malgova.mango
M
malgova.mango
Guest
Dear Sri Ramaa!
Long time! Sowkiyama?
A good quote . But "God" is real than any conceptualization or imagination. All the conceptualization are possible only because of the real "HIM".
Let me complete the sloka ".......Udhithanan Ulagam Uiya"
Thanks for the participation, appreciate your participation to my post ON "DIKSHITARS OF ..." also.
Regards
malgova.mango
Long time! Sowkiyama?
A good quote . But "God" is real than any conceptualization or imagination. All the conceptualization are possible only because of the real "HIM".
Let me complete the sloka ".......Udhithanan Ulagam Uiya"
Thanks for the participation, appreciate your participation to my post ON "DIKSHITARS OF ..." also.
Regards
malgova.mango
M
malgova.mango
Guest
Dear Sri Ramaa!
One has to hear this sloka from "Variyar's" mouth. Karnaamirtham than poongo.
Regards
Malgova.mango
One has to hear this sloka from "Variyar's" mouth. Karnaamirtham than poongo.
Regards
Malgova.mango
Dear Sri Malgova mango,
I am unable to understand what your query is.
Do you mean to say that aruvam is one that doesnot have a character and / or attribute and uruvam has?
Or do you mean to say that God has no guna or character or attribute?
As to guna, attribute and the like I had seen the old forum pages herein that contain much discussions and those seem to be sufficient for answering your query and I wont be able to say anything beyond that. In fact, I donot get into discussions on guna, varna and the related issues as those invariably donot get any conclusive discussion but lead only to heated debates, as I have seen these forum pages itself.
Regards
Appaiah
I am unable to understand what your query is.
Do you mean to say that aruvam is one that doesnot have a character and / or attribute and uruvam has?
Or do you mean to say that God has no guna or character or attribute?
As to guna, attribute and the like I had seen the old forum pages herein that contain much discussions and those seem to be sufficient for answering your query and I wont be able to say anything beyond that. In fact, I donot get into discussions on guna, varna and the related issues as those invariably donot get any conclusive discussion but lead only to heated debates, as I have seen these forum pages itself.
Regards
Appaiah
R
Ramaa
Guest
Dear Appaiahji/MMji,
Are we not getting into a great debate on Advaita!
There is nothing in the object. Everything is in the subject!
I believe it is the subject which sanctions the existence of the object.
Anbuji has held that Ahankara (cause and effect) is the third leg of creation, the other two being space and time.
As Anbuji put it "Then Rudra went to sleep and the entire world of objects melted into nothing in the darkness of ignorance in his sleep. He is indeed the destroyer! As he woke up again the world of objects got projected into being. He thus revives the creation and sustentation. Thus Ahankara became the cause (and effect) of the world. Ahankara is avidya (ignorance), Ahankara is the causality. Ahankara is thus the Thamo Guna."
I agree with Anbuji. This is 'Drishti Srishti Vada' of Advaita that Bhagavan Ramana taught. He thus held that Mukthi is instantaneous.
This is in opposition to "Srishti Drishti Vada" that teacher 'Krama Mukthi'.
Regards,
Are we not getting into a great debate on Advaita!
There is nothing in the object. Everything is in the subject!
I believe it is the subject which sanctions the existence of the object.
Anbuji has held that Ahankara (cause and effect) is the third leg of creation, the other two being space and time.
As Anbuji put it "Then Rudra went to sleep and the entire world of objects melted into nothing in the darkness of ignorance in his sleep. He is indeed the destroyer! As he woke up again the world of objects got projected into being. He thus revives the creation and sustentation. Thus Ahankara became the cause (and effect) of the world. Ahankara is avidya (ignorance), Ahankara is the causality. Ahankara is thus the Thamo Guna."
I agree with Anbuji. This is 'Drishti Srishti Vada' of Advaita that Bhagavan Ramana taught. He thus held that Mukthi is instantaneous.
This is in opposition to "Srishti Drishti Vada" that teacher 'Krama Mukthi'.
Regards,
Brahmanyan
Active member
What Castes are the Converts.
Dear Sri Appaiah,
As per the available Christian Literature in St. Thomas the Apostle might have arrived in west coast in 52 AD. One source claims that there is a mention of "Nasranis" by name "Essanis" in Epic "Manimekalai". But there are some incidents quoted in their literature do not agree with the facts available to us. Most important one is the Conversion of Namboothiri Brahmin families to Christianity by the Apostle in Palayur. This is claimed to have happened during his first visit (52 AD). This seems to me in contradiction to the fact "Namboothiri Brahmins" arrived in Chera Nadu between 8 and 14 century only. They were brought from North and settled down in Tulu Nadu first and then in Malayalam speaking area. They settled down in 64 gramams, 32 in Tulu Nadu area and 32 in Malabar area. But the name "Palayur" does not appear in the list of 32 Gramams of Namboothiri settlement in Malayalam speaking area. (Only there is a Paravoor in the list.) The initial migration of Brahmins to West Coast took place during the rule of Kadamba dynasty(345-525 CE). Then it continued during the expansion of Pallavas and Chalukyas rule. Since I could not get hold of good reference books I have to depend more on available articles that I read.
However there some families of Converted Christian families continue to bear Illam names of "Naboothiri Brahmins". Interestingly these families still enjoy honoured position in the community and at least two such families claim they contributed Priests continuously to the church. Hence at some point of time there might have been conversions from "Namboothiri" community to Christianity. But since our dharma does not allow conversion or reconversion these people could not come back to their original faith.
I am happy that you had gone through my Blog. I would request you to read all the posts when you get time and let me have your valuable feed back.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Appaiah,
As per the available Christian Literature in St. Thomas the Apostle might have arrived in west coast in 52 AD. One source claims that there is a mention of "Nasranis" by name "Essanis" in Epic "Manimekalai". But there are some incidents quoted in their literature do not agree with the facts available to us. Most important one is the Conversion of Namboothiri Brahmin families to Christianity by the Apostle in Palayur. This is claimed to have happened during his first visit (52 AD). This seems to me in contradiction to the fact "Namboothiri Brahmins" arrived in Chera Nadu between 8 and 14 century only. They were brought from North and settled down in Tulu Nadu first and then in Malayalam speaking area. They settled down in 64 gramams, 32 in Tulu Nadu area and 32 in Malabar area. But the name "Palayur" does not appear in the list of 32 Gramams of Namboothiri settlement in Malayalam speaking area. (Only there is a Paravoor in the list.) The initial migration of Brahmins to West Coast took place during the rule of Kadamba dynasty(345-525 CE). Then it continued during the expansion of Pallavas and Chalukyas rule. Since I could not get hold of good reference books I have to depend more on available articles that I read.
However there some families of Converted Christian families continue to bear Illam names of "Naboothiri Brahmins". Interestingly these families still enjoy honoured position in the community and at least two such families claim they contributed Priests continuously to the church. Hence at some point of time there might have been conversions from "Namboothiri" community to Christianity. But since our dharma does not allow conversion or reconversion these people could not come back to their original faith.
I am happy that you had gone through my Blog. I would request you to read all the posts when you get time and let me have your valuable feed back.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Dear Sri Brahmanyan
I read your blogs on Kodungallur. It makes an interesting reading. It is Bhagavaty's desire that the book by Indra choodan should land in your hands.
My dispute is on the very reliability of the christian literature. As I said earlier, if Apostle Thomas had come by the land route, there is no reason as to how and why he skipped so many cities of India which were more vibrant those days on the way to Kodungallur. If he had landed by sea at Kodungallur, then what was the necessity for the Europeans to look for the sea route to India even as late as 15th Century CE.
As part of my work, I had been a frequent visitor to Kerala during 1990 - 1997. I had travelled length and breadth of Kerala those days and enjoyed its unadulterated natural beauty, culture and temples. I had interacted with Syrian Christians, who were powerful in the Government and business. Almost all of them would proudly say that some families of Namboothiris were converted to Christianity by St Thomas, the apostle. When queried as to what was then the need for Vasco-da-Gama to look for the sea route in the 15th century, every one of them (this includes a person who was regarded as a research scholar in history of syrian christians) never had an answer. Most of them would then admit that this St Thomas would be another Saint and not the apostle.
There had been much Tamil literature written after the first century CE. But none of them say anything on christianity at all. Chrisians known for conversions would never have kept quiet if they were there in India in those days and that would certainly have been referred to in our literature. As I had earlier stated, The entire deccan plateau was part of Tamil country and the only other language was Tulu those days. PuranAnURu, silappathikaaram, Manimekalai, seevaka sinthamani are all of this period. None of them refer to christianity. while Silappathikaaram describes the Hindu hero and heroines, Manimekalai is about a Buddha Sannyasi as the heroine. Seevaka Sinthamani's hero is a Jain. PuranAnURu is from Chera land and it should have said about an alien religion being present in Chera nadu. Nothing of that sort. I am sure that the Tamil poets would never fail to even mention about a tall personality of the order of an apostle.
Of course, there is evidence of trade between Chera Nadu and Rome and Arabian countries. But there is no evidence of any alien religion.
As you say, if we are able to arrive at the date of the arrrival of the namboothiris in west coast, we may get a better evidence.
Namaskarams
I read your blogs on Kodungallur. It makes an interesting reading. It is Bhagavaty's desire that the book by Indra choodan should land in your hands.
My dispute is on the very reliability of the christian literature. As I said earlier, if Apostle Thomas had come by the land route, there is no reason as to how and why he skipped so many cities of India which were more vibrant those days on the way to Kodungallur. If he had landed by sea at Kodungallur, then what was the necessity for the Europeans to look for the sea route to India even as late as 15th Century CE.
As part of my work, I had been a frequent visitor to Kerala during 1990 - 1997. I had travelled length and breadth of Kerala those days and enjoyed its unadulterated natural beauty, culture and temples. I had interacted with Syrian Christians, who were powerful in the Government and business. Almost all of them would proudly say that some families of Namboothiris were converted to Christianity by St Thomas, the apostle. When queried as to what was then the need for Vasco-da-Gama to look for the sea route in the 15th century, every one of them (this includes a person who was regarded as a research scholar in history of syrian christians) never had an answer. Most of them would then admit that this St Thomas would be another Saint and not the apostle.
There had been much Tamil literature written after the first century CE. But none of them say anything on christianity at all. Chrisians known for conversions would never have kept quiet if they were there in India in those days and that would certainly have been referred to in our literature. As I had earlier stated, The entire deccan plateau was part of Tamil country and the only other language was Tulu those days. PuranAnURu, silappathikaaram, Manimekalai, seevaka sinthamani are all of this period. None of them refer to christianity. while Silappathikaaram describes the Hindu hero and heroines, Manimekalai is about a Buddha Sannyasi as the heroine. Seevaka Sinthamani's hero is a Jain. PuranAnURu is from Chera land and it should have said about an alien religion being present in Chera nadu. Nothing of that sort. I am sure that the Tamil poets would never fail to even mention about a tall personality of the order of an apostle.
Of course, there is evidence of trade between Chera Nadu and Rome and Arabian countries. But there is no evidence of any alien religion.
As you say, if we are able to arrive at the date of the arrrival of the namboothiris in west coast, we may get a better evidence.
Namaskarams
M
malgova.mango
Guest
Dear Sri Appaiah!
My query is simple one, What do you meant by saying...
1) Aruravam? - real big puzzle
2) Aruvam?
How do you say the darshana of "Aruvam" as an elevated stage.
For your questions
No I didn't say "God" is attributeless.
I'm perfectly ok if you don't want to pursue on this anymore.
I'm like you, I too prefer discussions to debate.
Regards,
My query is simple one, What do you meant by saying...
1) Aruravam? - real big puzzle
2) Aruvam?
How do you say the darshana of "Aruvam" as an elevated stage.
For your questions
No I didn't say "God" is attributeless.
I'm perfectly ok if you don't want to pursue on this anymore.
I'm like you, I too prefer discussions to debate.
Regards,
Dear Sri Malgova Mango,
I meant only 'aruvam'. If it is typed as aruravam it is typing error and my regrets for the confusion caused by that.
I appreciate your views on having discussions, even debates are welcome unless they turn to bitter.
For me, our presense here is to share knowledge and information. I do not think that I can get any one else to my thought process and vice versa. Any attempt at such levels would only be counter-productive especially if it has the potential to get to heater discussions. It will only result in loss of time and energy to those holding both the views. In this forum, I feel that loss of your time is as good as mine, as we are one and the same. Therefore, I avoid such issues and situations.
Regards
Appaiah
I meant only 'aruvam'. If it is typed as aruravam it is typing error and my regrets for the confusion caused by that.
I appreciate your views on having discussions, even debates are welcome unless they turn to bitter.
For me, our presense here is to share knowledge and information. I do not think that I can get any one else to my thought process and vice versa. Any attempt at such levels would only be counter-productive especially if it has the potential to get to heater discussions. It will only result in loss of time and energy to those holding both the views. In this forum, I feel that loss of your time is as good as mine, as we are one and the same. Therefore, I avoid such issues and situations.
Regards
Appaiah
R
Ramaa
Guest
Dear Appaiahji,
You have stated:
And the beauty of it all is that all of them continued and/or encouraged idol worship! Bhagavan Ramana and ParamacharyaL, the two Jeevan Mukthas of the 20th Century with whom many of us have associated one way or another made no change whatsoever to the practice of worship.
Regards,
You have stated:
I am not sure there are stages in realization. Even though Krama Mukthi is talked about, none of the realized souls have endorsed it. To all of them the transformation have been instantaneous.
And the beauty of it all is that all of them continued and/or encouraged idol worship! Bhagavan Ramana and ParamacharyaL, the two Jeevan Mukthas of the 20th Century with whom many of us have associated one way or another made no change whatsoever to the practice of worship.
Regards,
Dear Sri Ramaa and Sri Malgova Mango
The stages from Bhakti marga to Gnana Marga leads to what I have said. Even the Jeevan Mukthas cited by you have held the same view, but they always advised that the upliftment to the Gnana marga level has to be gradual and commensurate with the ability of the jeevan concerned. Not all have the pakkuvam to reach the level of Gnanamarga and therefore the need to have yoga marga, karma marga and the bhakti marga.
Vallalar is one in the recent times to have realised the Brahman within without any form or uruvam and he had stated "kadai viritthaen, koLvArillai"
when he found that there were not many with the "pakkuvam" to so realise.
The great sages like Paramacharya and Bhagavan Ramana had indeed realised the Brahman within and were themselves "Brahma Swaroopis" to ordinary mortals like us. Yet they practised and advised uruva vazhipaadu because they knew that those with "the pakkuvam" to realise the Brahman without any visual supplement very few.
Regards
Appaiah
The stages from Bhakti marga to Gnana Marga leads to what I have said. Even the Jeevan Mukthas cited by you have held the same view, but they always advised that the upliftment to the Gnana marga level has to be gradual and commensurate with the ability of the jeevan concerned. Not all have the pakkuvam to reach the level of Gnanamarga and therefore the need to have yoga marga, karma marga and the bhakti marga.
Vallalar is one in the recent times to have realised the Brahman within without any form or uruvam and he had stated "kadai viritthaen, koLvArillai"
when he found that there were not many with the "pakkuvam" to so realise.
The great sages like Paramacharya and Bhagavan Ramana had indeed realised the Brahman within and were themselves "Brahma Swaroopis" to ordinary mortals like us. Yet they practised and advised uruva vazhipaadu because they knew that those with "the pakkuvam" to realise the Brahman without any visual supplement very few.
Regards
Appaiah
M
malgova.mango
Guest
Dear Sri Ramma!
Once again to remind you that nobody worship idol. A devotee whatever his stage may be , relate to God only, but he has the liberty to choose any media , one such media is through idols. So the term "idol worship" is a misnomer. My humble request please don't use it.
Regards,
Once again to remind you that nobody worship idol. A devotee whatever his stage may be , relate to God only, but he has the liberty to choose any media , one such media is through idols. So the term "idol worship" is a misnomer. My humble request please don't use it.
Regards,
Naina_Marbus
Active member
- Status
Share this page
Share this page
Latest ads
-
Free [Bride Wanted] Brahmin Bride wanted in the UK or EuropeLooking for some UK or Europe based Iyer Brahmin bride
- Kalyan Ram Srinivasan (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated:
- Expires
-
For sale [Property for Sale] Land adjacent to ECR Vettuvankeni Chennai4300 sqft rectangular land
- raghusubramanian (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated:
- Expires
-
-
Wanted [Want to Buy] Agraharam HouseWant to buy Agraharam House - Brokers / Developers excuse
- ramsrini (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated:
-
Wanted Luxury Retirement Home in CoimbatoreMinimum 2Bedoom 2bathroom with balcony- prasad1 (+0 /0 /-0)
- Updated: