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What castes are the converts?

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Dear Sri Appaiah!

You have rightly observed, Gnana Marga starts only after "Dharma Marga" without the Dharma (meaning Yoga, Karma and Bhakti) where is Moksha or Mukthi to talk about , no salvation possible, no vimochanam at all.

If Vallalar attained Mukthi, it is due to a Dharmic system that was in place for 1000's of generations, without which how "Vallalar or Bharatiyar or Sri Ramana Maharishi or any other Atma Gnanis" can come about?

Have'nt you heard of "Mritunjaya Mantra" - Where it says like riped cucumber one should detach oneself from Samsara, Karma should leave the jiva, not the jiva leave the Karma. if there is no plant, how can one expect any cucumber at the first place ?

My preceptions..
See due to some sadhana, people can become siddhas, that doesn't mean they are self-realized souls, even if they are , they have no authority to re-write the Veda. But unfortunately India is abound with many such siddha-purushas intent upon imposing their own cults at the cost of vedic culture, this danger is accented acutely in Kali Yuga. Gullible people are abound as they don't have any formal spiritual education the results are telling.
Just my preceptions....

Still I really don't understand what aruvam means, But I understand that I should not pursue on this with you any more. So we will leave it.

Hope I didn't waste your time.

Regards
Malgova.mango
 
who said st thomas visited south india.even previous pope denied and vatigan issued statement that st thomas visited up to west of punjab and not to south india which led to the protest from syrian christians from kerala with hue and cry from them.
visit website - www.hamsa.org wherein ex canadian priest had given details about the
fraud of st thomas story in india with the correspondence denial from vatigan.
brahmins are always targetted by chrisitan missionaries from the day of colonial british
period as missionaries evangelists viewed that brahmins are the stumbling block of
conversion agenda and they are indispensible like salt in food as hinduism is blended
with their culture. hence many missionaries take the cover of brahmin names like
shanti ashramam ect with names of brahmins pilferate in their circle and try to confuse
them in their mind with stories in measured language so that if brahmins are flat,it is
easy for the missionaries to finish the job of conversion with other caste hindus who in
general follow the practice of brahmins.see the book of sitaram goel who had published
missionaries letters sent to their head offices in u k on conversion issues which leaves
no second opinion that but for brahmins,entire bharath would have been converted to
christianity.for example sita ram goel book had published the letter of robert cadwell in
thirunelveli narrated that in thiruchendur area,caste hindus said to this evangelist
they would be ready to embrass christianity if brahmins in that area agree to accept
jesus as their messiah.
so the theory of st.thomas mount and his visit to south india are falsified like mythical
aryian invasion which was also falsified.visit to this website -www.hamsa.org will give
more information about this. readers of this website must be careful with undercover christian theologist bearing prominent brahmin names putting false stories and theories
in measured language to preach good opinion about their commercial religion which lost
his followers in western country and also losing its hold in america.
 
Dear Sri Malgova Mango

My apologies if my post had ever meant that you waste my time. I was more intent in not wasting your time as your time is my time too.

Your input has certainly enabled me to understand a little more in a different perspective.

However, the almighty's forms or shapes are all perceived forms or shapes, as perceived (avAhanam) by the Bhakta, but the Almighty doesnot remain with any single form or shape. He is omnipresent, omnipotent as we all believe. The concept of Aruvam is the corrolary to this. May be I will explain this a little later more leisurely. I dont know if I can do justice to this explanation. Yet I will sincerely try.

Regards

Appaiah
 
Dear Sri Appaiah!

What I wanted , is this sincere approach, this satya from another fellow. Your gesture is very comfortable to me.

I've been receiving reply more of a "Ninja" kind, I mean a sort of self-defence reaction rather than anything else. Certainly I appreciate your this reply.

Regards
 
Continuing....

Almighty remains in all forms, it is like Moon reflecting in the waves of water, though you see the reflection of light in all the waves with different intensity the source of the light is moon only , and not from the waves.


Bhramam is also defined as "Satyam, Gnanam , Anantham - Bramha" , We used to say "Brahmaswarupam" - So there is nothing formless.

Ishvara or God - Is defined Shastrically "Maya Sahitam Bramha" - So Ishvara is not formless or attributeless or Guna less (Here I'm not talking about Varna) . Even "Atma Gnani or Atma Nishta" needs the help of Ishvara in a particular form according to his need. That's how we have Rama and Krishna - the incarnations worship God in their respective avatars. Only Parmahamsas like (Sadasiva Brahmendral,Aalngudi Swamigal ..) can be without worshipping anything.

So the relevance of traditions must be upheld, it should not be glossed over due to some inadequacies in our capacity to appreciate and understand.

This is what I'm drumming from the day one I joined this forum.

Regards,
 
Dear Sri appaiah Ji,

I am surprised to read this. I have always read and thought that all four yogas are 'equal' in their results (Moksha) and the only difference between them is the attributes of the practitioner who chooses the path. For example, both Meera and Rishi Kapila are assumed to have attained the dissolution, one through Bhakthi and the other by Gnana.

I did not know that there are 'qualitative' differences between any of them. This is why Sri Ramana Maharishi taught that one can still be in Samsara and can answer the eternal question for himself/herself. Am I missing something here?

Also, the 'Dharma' is for the species called 'humans'. And any yoga is a tool, a way to teach discipline and control of the senses so one can practice true detachment, hence keep Karma at bay.

Please correct me, if I am wrong.

Pranams,
KRS



appaiah said:
Dear Sri Ramaa and Sri Malgova Mango

The stages from Bhakti marga to Gnana Marga leads to what I have said. Even the Jeevan Mukthas cited by you have held the same view, but they always advised that the upliftment to the Gnana marga level has to be gradual and commensurate with the ability of the jeevan concerned. Not all have the pakkuvam to reach the level of Gnanamarga and therefore the need to have yoga marga, karma marga and the bhakti marga.

Vallalar is one in the recent times to have realised the Brahman within without any form or uruvam and he had stated "kadai viritthaen, koLvArillai"
when he found that there were not many with the "pakkuvam" to so realise.

The great sages like Paramacharya and Bhagavan Ramana had indeed realised the Brahman within and were themselves "Brahma Swaroopis" to ordinary mortals like us. Yet they practised and advised uruva vazhipaadu because they knew that those with "the pakkuvam" to realise the Brahman without any visual supplement very few.

Regards

Appaiah
Click to expand...
 
Conversion to ..?

Ramaa said:
Conversion to Hinduism was in vogue until the advent of the Muslims!

The Heliodorus Column

An archaeological discovery proves that there were western followers
of Vedic principles twenty-two centuries ago

By Jack Hebner & Steven Rosen

http://groups.google.com/group/soc....read/thread/003c59efe069c58f/00bcc2c3d692fa7e
Click to expand...

-----------------------
While checking the link above, I ran into this one:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc....58640b32403/20ca2b184917498e#20ca2b184917498e
 
Dear Sri Malgova mango

I am happy that you are happy.

Just a correction. Even the moon doesnot emit light by itself. It reflects the rays of the Sun and thus we see light from the moon. It is only because the Sun by itself is full of agni and can be a source of energy, the worship of sun is being done from time immemorial, the following religion known as Sauram.

However, as I had earlier stated the Gnanis were brahmaswaroopis to ordinary mortals like us. By that I did not mean that the Almighty has a form or a shape. My view is that the Almighty has no form or shape to such of whom who can realise him. Saints like Sri Vallalar and Sri Manickavacagar even wanted more and more to realise the Almighty in this form. Vallalar made a temple with continuous jyoti and merged with the jyoti to porpagate this. Sri Manickavacagar made a temple in Tiruperunthurai where Shiva is worshipped in the moolasthan, with only the avudayar and without the lingam. Sri Manickavacagar impresses upon us to see the Almighty without any form or shape.

My question to you earlier on Chdambara Rahasyam was aimed at bringing this fact out. When we go to Chidambaram, the "rahasyam is shown" but everyone says "onnumillai".
Is it that there is nothing in that area?
Is it that "nothing" is the secret?
Is it that there is no secret at all?
Is it that noone knows what the secret is about?

If we keep asking these and many consequential questions, we come to the conclusion that there is a formless, shapeless, gunaless entity, and that is the chidambara rahasyam and that entity is the Almighty. It is only that entity that is worshipped in the Mulasthan, but for enabling ordinary mortals like us Sri Nataraja and His cosmic dance are placed before us to worship him at our level.

It is only in this concept that the Mulasthan in the Tiruperundurai temple built by Sri Manickavacagar is adored as the Sixth Sabha, the five sabhas being in Chidambaram.

As to Guna, The Almighty has no Guna is my view. All the living beings are equal before Him.

Regards

Appaiah
 
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Dear Sri KRS

I think that I had not brought out properly what I wanted to convey.

I meant and agree that all the yogas are equal and will bring the same mukti.

Regards

Appaiah
 
Dear Appaiahji/MMji,

On the Almighty discussion I do not find any differences between you both. I can only see that you both are saying the same thing in different versions. Arunagirinathar beautifully brought out the fact that the thought, what is thought and the thinker are all HIM only and so where is the difference!!

நினைப்பு நினைவது நினைப்பவனும் அறு
நிலத்தில் நிலைபெற நிறுத்த வுரியதும்..

(பெருத்த வசன வஹுப்பு - திருப்புகழ்)

Regards,
 
Dear Sri Appaiah!

My replies in Blue

appaiah said:
Dear Sri Malgova mango

I am happy that you are happy.


Just a correction. Even the moon doesnot emit light by itself. It reflects the rays of the Sun and thus we see light from the moon. It is only because the Sun by itself is full of agni and can be a source of energy, the worship of sun is being done from time immemorial, the following religion known as Sauram.

What I meant is an example , of course son as the light source can also be used, even one can use torch light or any light source for that case... The point is Brahmam only reflects everywhere.

However, as I had earlier stated the Gnanis were brahmaswaroopis to ordinary mortals like us. By that I did not mean that the Almighty has a form or a shape. My view is that the Almighty has no form or shape to such of whom who can realise him.

You need to ascertain here what you meant by
1) Form and Formless.
2) Brahmam
3) Ishvara or God (I've given the Shastric Definition)


Saints like Sri Vallalar and Sri Manickavacagar even wanted more and more to realise the Almighty in this form. Vallalar made a temple with continuous jyoti and merged with the jyoti to porpagate this.

To me Manickavacagar Swamigal is miles apart (incomparable one), he is one of the four tamil saints , In Chidambaram Orsavam, HE is celebrated.

Vallalar is a Siddha Purusha... Here even though we may vary, we just move on.

Sri Manickavacagar made a temple in Tiruperunthurai where Shiva is worshipped in the moolasthan, with only the avudayar and without the lingam. Sri Manickavacagar impresses upon us to see the Almighty without any form or shape.

What I heard, is while he was constructing the Temple, The King imprisoned him, so it is an incomplete temple , but preserved as it is. There is no pre-meditation on Swamigal's part to leave with Avudayar.

Here Can I say God is all Form.
As an example, we have many Limbs, and organs and many other things, can we say we are all the limbs, organs . Not identifying with any particular organ but on all that we have. So we can say we are not only one particular organ but a collection of many.

We can't say we are Organ less

In the same vein God is not only identified with a particular Form, HE is the summonbonum of all phenomena of Forms.


My question to you earlier on Chdambara Rahasyam was aimed at bringing this fact out. When we go to Chidambaram, the "rahasyam is shown" but everyone says "onnumillai".
Is it that there is nothing in that area? - Aakasam, Ishavara as Aakasam.
Is it that "nothing" is the secret? - No
Is it that there is no secret at all? - Secret , yes it is secret.
Is it that noone knows what the secret is about? - No, Infact all the Atma Gnanis do Know

Chidambaram - Aakasa Sthalam - Chit + Ambaram

If we keep asking these and many consequential questions, we come to the conclusion that there is a formless, shapeless, gunaless entity, and that is the chidambara rahasyam and that entity is the Almighty.

If you say formless as in there is no one particular form, shape and guna - I agree. I also answered for this in many place in this post.

It is only that entity that is worshipped in the Mulasthan, but for enabling ordinary mortals like us Sri Nataraja and His cosmic dance are placed before us to worship him at our level.

Completely agreed

It is only in this concept that the Mulasthan in the Tiruperundurai temple built by Sri Manickavacagar is adored as the Sixth Sabha, the five sabhas being in Chidambaram.

I've addressed this above.

As to Guna, The Almighty has no Guna is my view.

If I say, Almighty is the might of all Guna's and much more, would you consider?

All the living beings are equal before Him.

I completely agree with you on this.

Regards,
Click to expand...
 
Dear Sri Appaiah!

Eventhough all the yogas have virya, I think we should learn to take an integrated approach, Shraddha leads to do Karma , doing one's duty, which in turns gathers punya for the Jiva which leads to Bhakti, Bhakti leads to Gnana, Gnana leads to more Bhakti eventually in the very ripened stage of Gnana , Karma leaves the Jiva.

This is the import of "Mritunjaya mantra" is it not?

Without Shraddha is Gnana possible?

Regards,
 
'WE' are the proud Tamil Brahmins!

'WE' are proud of our heritage that has been the envy of the world!

'WE' are proud of our Tamil 'pulamai' and zealously invoke the name of Thamizh Thatha and Bharathi!

'WE' are proud of our Vedic heritage and our 'paandithyam in Sanskrit the ancient language of equal excellence with Tamil!

'WE' invoke with pride the great Mahans from our community so innumerable in the past such as the line of Sankaracharyas and Ramanujacharya and many great followers of Madhwacharya and Bhagavan Ramana and Mahaswami of the recent past!

'WE' are of a glorious past and would never reconcile to being put down.

'WE' will never reconcile with the defeatists who would crow at our misfortune!

'WE' will rise like the phoenix from the ashes to reclaim the heritage and glory and dharma that were snatched away from us!

'WE' will never divide ourselves into percentiles and will remain our glorious absolute!

'WE'will help our bretheren to manifest their absoluteness!

'WE' will never succumb to the arrogance and racism of the westerners who enslaved us!

'WE' were called the 'arrogant' by the envious!

'We' will always remember with pride the sacrifices of our forefathers in their effort to reclaim the Dharma from the jaws of the asuric forces!

'WE' will be victorious and the future is ours!

'WE' are the proud Tamil Brahmins!!
 
Sabash! Well said! You have uttered good words about our community.



Regards,
KRS
 
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'WE' are humble?

Ramaa,

in the eyes of the indian (tamil nadu) government, we are defined as brahmins based on who our parents are. if we make a concerted effort to convert to islam or christianity or buddhism, the law will accept it, and term us such. if you are a practising (or even atheist) hindu of a lesser shade, you are branded as a brahmin.

this is all inclusive branding, which binds, somewhat uncomfortably, various shades of opinion not only to one's own authenticity re brahminism, but also one's neighbours (in the so e-neigbhbourhood that is this website) with different view of life.

to accept our similarity, within which the various shades between black and white exists, is to express our strength and inherent faith in our philosophies.

many of the esoteric stuff that you and mm discuss are way beyond me, but i am in awe of the same, for i see a facet of our heritage which fascinates me, but am too dumb to comprehend.

my own personal faith is very questionable and i dare not express my beliefs, for it would be outside the range of this group. but as long as i don't bandy it around here with a chillam pada pada, and ensure no one takes offence, i should be tolerated. how we conduct ourselves in this forum, so that we respect our differences, and yet feel a kinship based on shared heritage, and that too a varying extent, is the key to the success of this forum. to quit is to cop out. to participate, knowing the limits, is strength.

personally i am an optimist. i think tamil brahmins are having the best times ever economically. we have never had it so good.

the fact that we are marginalized politically in tamil nadu, is something that we have not come to terms as a group. when we do that, we will come up with a way to deal with it. till then, so be it. i think personally that the biggest damage has been to our ego and pride. not to our purses. i may be wrong in this perception.

but then, if we look back, politcial hegemony has never been part of our agenda. we have moved into fields and new fields, and have become prosperous. one of the side effects of such prosperity, is the perceived loss of spirituality.

i detect this agony in many a postings here. that too is ok. we will all find our own balances and find peace within ourselves. till then, we build phantoms, which become more fearful than the original cause of the fear itself. it is in that stage that we tend to hurt the ones that we must most protect or succour.

my suggestion to you, is to celebrate our community's successes, yet be humble about our achievements. spirituality is personal and seek your fulfilment from it. a good example set will automatically find followers. otherwise it was never meant to be.

the past is not as damaging as you perceive. there are challenges in the present but nothing unsurmountable . the future should not be so frighteningly discouraging as you perceive, such that one needs to evoke our ancients to provide us with the weapons. the ancients were sages of those days. you are today's sage. believe in yourself and be at peace.

k.r.s is within his rights to call anyone 1% to 100% brahmin. that is his right. does it matter?

you know who you are. he definitely knows who he is. can we leave it at that? please?

thank yo.
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

I am in no way interfereing in your discussion with Sri Ramaaji. I am picking up on things that are opinions or messages you have to all and wish to comment on it.

in the eyes of the indian (tamil nadu) government, we are defined as brahmins based on who our parents are. if we make a concerted effort to convert to islam or christianity or buddhism, the law will accept it, and term us such. if you are a practising (or even atheist) hindu of a lesser shade, you are branded as a brahmin.
Click to expand...
What you are saying is that the state is interfering in who you are if and if only you are a Hindu. If you are a Christian or a Muslim they stay away. This is precisely we are up against. The State (both the centre and the state) should not interefere the religion of the people. But it won't! Why? Because we have a flawed constitution which says that it is secular but never defined it and has all provisions that are against secularism. What is the result? It is, as we have seen above, an anti-Hindu state. For example the DMK is bringing about a new calendar and is insturcting all the temples not to practice their age old traditions. Do they tell the Muslims and Christians? No. And the Christians and the Muslims also know that the DMK and the Congress are their friend and whatever they do in the name of secularism is only against the Hindus. Only Hindus do not see it that way. This ignorance is the biggest stubling block. It is our utmost duty to educate the Hindus to free themselves from the clutches of the politicians and the State.

This constitution and its creature the divide and rule politics threatens us as Tamil Brahmins. Unless this basic structure is changed we will continue to wallow in this state of alienation.

Also I have seen a few Brahmins converting to Christianity (I have never seen one converting to Islam) but do you know, converting to Christianity did not enable them to jettison their 'Brahminism'. They remain aloof and neither other 'Christians' (of course they are Hindu non-Brahmin converts!) accept them. We have also seen that even among those Christians (and Muslim) who are non-Brahmins there are divisions, untouchability etc. Nether the State nor political outfits such as the DMK or the Congress wants to talk about them. This is Indian secularism!

but then, if we look back, politcial hegemony has never been part of our agenda.
Click to expand...
Very rarely in Hindu India the Brahmins ever took to ruling. All they have yearned was for a protective king. And the kings in turn benefitted from the intelligence of the Brahmins. It is true that this yearning for security has blinded some Brahmins in the past during colonial days and even Mogul days to serve the aliens as masters.

Unfortunately many people are unable to see how the Brahmins who serve the society under the protective umbrella of a benevolent king can also be the cause of the chaos and disorder under a tyrant's rule who would hound the Brahmins. That is when the Parasuramas and Chanakyas and Shivajis are born.

This is what Sri Ramaa has stated in some other post that has startled some including you I believe.

However much the Brahmins are terribly individualistic they do have a collective psyche that could benefit the society immensely or paralyse the society terribly. Take it from me, the Brahmins will never unite for their mutual benefit because of their gunadhosham and so that is why they need the catelist in the Kshathriya viz. the State. That is when they become beneficial to the society.

I hope I did make you understand this.
 
Dear Brahmanyan,
Just for your information, I belong to " Namakkara Smartha family from Singanallur.

Regards
tbs
 
Dear sir,

well said......I belong to " Namakkra Smartha" of Coimbatore (Singanallur) and my ancestors are from Thirunnellai village , palakkad. village
Brahmanyan said:
Dear Sri Saab.,

I wish to make a factual correction to your statement that "before Ramanuja Acharya there was only Smartha Sampradhaayam". But the fact is "Sri Vaishnavam" has a long list of Guru Parampara starting from "Lord Vishnu to Sri-Devi to Visvaksena to Satgopa to Nathamuni to Pundarikaksha to Rama Mitra to Yamunacharya to Parankusha and then to Sri Ramanuja Acharya. Of course it was Sri Ramanujacharya ( CE:1017-1137) who revived and systematized Visishtadhvaitha Philosophy by writing Sri Bhashyams. There were also "Alwars" who propagated Sri Vaishnavam very much before Sri Ramanujacharya in Tamil speaking world.

There are "Naamakkara Smarthas" in Coimbatore district (Singanallur) and Tirunellai village in Palghat, native place of Sri TN Seshan. who adorn themselves with "Srichoornam".

Regards,
Brahmanyan.
Click to expand...
 
What Castes are Converts?

Dear Sri Tbs.,

First Let me welcome you to "Tamil Brahmins" Forum. This is a good platform wherein you will find valuable discussions on many topics that are of interest to our community.

I am very happy to learn that you belong to "namakkara Smartha" family of Singanallur (near Coimbatore) who have come from Trunellai village. My maternal grand mother belongs to Singanallur. I have many relatives (none in Singanallur now) who come from that place. Interestingly we had many Venkataramanans, Venkatesans, Ramaswamis and one Seshaiyar who belong to that side of our family. I had been to Tirunellai Village once (on the banks of Kannadi River) with my friend and classmate who belongs to that village. Recently I came across an interesting article on the migration of Brahmins from Choladesam to Kerala. I would like to take up the subject in an appropriate thread later.

Wish you all the best.

Regards,

Brahmanyan.
 
What Castes are the converts?

Dear Sri Seshadri,

I doubt that the Seshaiyer, (who was also known as Muthanna), whom I mentioned in my post is your Grand father. He passed away long ago. I know all the family members of his except the present generation. The possibility of relationship otherwise may be there since in an Agraharam every family is related to every other family.

Regards,

Brahmanyan.


Seshadri Subramaniam said:
Shri Brahmanyan,

My grandfather's name is Seshaiyer... wondering whether is he the one you refer to...

Regards,
Seshadri
Click to expand...
 
Shri Brahmanyan,

Yes, the one you mention is different... From my father I come to know that there was a Muthanna; however, he only knew him by that name and not as Seshaiyer...

Regards,
Seshadri
 
What Castes are converts?

Dear Sri Seshadri,

Well, your father is correct. Most of his friends and relatives knew him as Muthanna only. He was the Police Office Manager at Coimbatore. He and his brother S.V.Aiyar were well known persons in the community in those days.

By the way this gives me an idea. "Tamil Brahmins Forum" can help the community members to find their roots by opening a separate thread for that purpose.

Thanks for the information.
Regards,

Brahmanyan.


Seshadri Subramaniam said:
Shri Brahmanyan,

Yes, the one you mention is different... From my father I come to know that there was a Muthanna; however, he only knew him by that name and not as Seshaiyer...

Regards,
Seshadri
Click to expand...
 
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