What makes one a Tamil Brahmin these days?

[gopaindu]

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To the moderator,
By mistake, I had clicked the unsubscription link instead of forum website, I request you to continue my membership and post the recent post of mine to the thread. I am very much interested in being a member of the forum. I assure you that it was unintentional to have clicked unsubscription unintentional. In case, my post contained some unethical words, kindly point out the same so to be avoided in future. thanks.

 

[tks]

Shri TKS,

I have read the exchange between Shri Kunjuppu and yourself and was impelled to write my views/doubts. I have selected certain portions from your post #293 and quoted those above. To my extremely "unenlightened" mind, there seem to be certain points requiring further elucidation here. I list them below.

1. Does anyone with the "adhikāra to teach" recommend internet forums as a medium for securing such enlightenment? Not at all, as you yourself state in these words, "Also anyone aspiring to enlightenment is unlikely to take time to post here in my view especially after seeing how some issues have been debated." If aspirants themselves will find this forum unsuitable, what about adepts with adhikāra to teach?This gives me the feeling that perhaps you might have by now identified some other forums which facilitate "enlightenment" (whatever it may mean, I am not sure); if that be the case, kindly share those names also here so that newcomers as also veterans trying to get " enlightenment " will be very much benefited.

2. The motto of this forum as spelt out by the Forum owner is "Brahmin Community spread across the entire globe"; it does not claim any expertise in any area, like "enlightenment". I therefore feel that newcomers will not be misled into believing that this forum is for gaining enlightenment. (I just now googled "enlightenment and got 23,100,000 answers and this forum does not figure within the first hundred even!)

2. Late April to May 14th. is but one "paksha", at the most. May be it has been sufficient time for an intellect like yours to judge the forum completely, but to me, I have not yet gone through even 10% of the archives in the last nearly one year of my association with this forum. I am therefore not at all in a position to pronounce any opinion, let alone any verdict, about the forum or its suitability to any particular purpose.

But during this one-year period I feel I could interact with a real cross-section of people, mostly tamil brahmins of different hues, and could learn a lot. "enlightenment " if it may be taken to mean knowledge accumulation, was also, therefore, possible.

3. You have said "many people – especially those with Tamil Brahmin heritage - tend to make things up and post it with assumed authority". Does this mean that in other forums frequented by non-Tamil Brahmins, posters do not claim any authority? Or is it that you want to pinpoint people ineligible for any "authority", assume it falsely and with such a facade, make pronouncements on even very weighty matters?

However, to my mind it looks as though people with Tamil Brahmin pretension are somewhat obsessed with that elusive idea of enlightenment which has not been grasped by me till now. They also tend to make pronouncements as if they have acquired all the adhikāra to do so, even if there is no system as such to judge and grant such adhikāra. This makes the forum (may be other forums too) as a drum left on the wayside which every passerby is free to beat and make noise

4. Since you have obviously covered most of the discussions here already, you will also probably agree that this word enlightenment is somewhat crucial to some posters in this forum. You will be doing signal service by spelling out your ideas, as a new-comer, of what this so-called enlightenment, according to you, is, IMHO. Hope you will kindly oblige.

Sangom -ji
I try to not just answer a question but answer the questioner - assuming I have something to contribute. This approach forces me to listen to the context, consider other points made by a person and understand where they are coming from.

After reading your post more than once I am typeless (like speechless)

I like your style where sarcasm kind of oozes through even when there is no content or intent

I realized that there is really no serious question and hence there are no answers!
Since you have spent time with a long post I thought I should say something useful out of respect.

You used the term "Impelled by a post" - vedanta tries to address this pressure.
Enquiring "what causes such a pressure, where is it coming from " is a starting point for true knowledge and path to enlightenment! I am sure you know this already ..

Happy blogging and posting,
Regards

 

[tks]

Dear tks,

From my experience in this forum I can tell you this. If you find it useful take it: otherwise leave it.

I used to sincerely believe that when I come here and criticise ideas I am just doing that without showing any disrespect to the owners of these ideas. But I found that people are not that simple. They are complicated bundles of expectations and ego. So I follow a simple formula nowadays. I type out my views and then edit to remove all second person singulars/plurals like you, your etc., and replace them with more sublime and nebulous we, our, my etc. though I make it a point to address the posting to the intended person with a "dear.........". I think i have successfully avoided treading on the egos of people here.

Raju-ji -
Thanks. Excellent suggestions indeed .. Will try to follow the suggestions.
Regards

 

[sangom]

Sangom -ji
I try to not just answer a question but answer the questioner - assuming I have something to contribute. This approach forces me to listen to the context, consider other points made by a person and understand where they are coming from.

After reading your post more than once I am typeless (like speechless)

I like your style where sarcasm kind of oozes through even when there is no content or intent

I realized that there is really no serious question and hence there are no answers!
Since you have spent time with a long post I thought I should say something useful out of respect.

You used the term "Impelled by a post" - vedanta tries to address this pressure.
Enquiring "what causes such a pressure, where is it coming from " is a starting point for true knowledge and path to enlightenment! I am sure you know this already ..

Happy blogging and posting,
Regards

Shri TKS,

I seem to be getting a glimpse of where the so-called enlightenment takes one. It is also news to me that vedanta is nothing more than a source of impulse, like apāna vāyu

Coming from the "horse's mouth" I have to believe!

 

[tks]

Shri TKS,

I seem to be getting a glimpse of where the so-called enlightenment takes one. It is also news to me that vedanta is nothing more than a source of impulse, like apāna vāyu

Coming from the "horse's mouth" I have to believe!

Sri Sangom-ji-

Actually I made a comment about the 'pressure' you were feeling (when you had a need to post) with two meanings in mind.. One a 'tongue in cheek' meaning and the other a more profound starting point for study. I am amused and had a nice laugh that you were able to recognize (only) the part that made the most sense to you

 

[sangom]

Sri Sangom-ji-

Actually I made a comment about the 'pressure' you were feeling (when you had a need to post) with two meanings in mind.. One a 'tongue in cheek' meaning and the other a more profound starting point for study. I am amused and had a nice laugh that you were able to recognize (only) the part that made the most sense to you

The profound meaning was not as self-evident as the other one. We can only identify that which is overwhelmingly revealed. Hence, in my humble opinion, you have to further improve so as to bring out anything profound through writing

 

[gopaindu]

What is IRM/ICM? raja48

 

[renuka]

What is IRM/ICM? raja48

IRM..Inter religous marriage
ICM..Inter caste marriage

BHO--Barack Hussain Obama
OBL-Osama Bin Laden

IMO-In My Opinion
FITW-Faith In the Word

Dear Gopaindu..and you know what JHUO is?
JHUO-- Just Helping You Out..hheheehehee

I understand you.. sometimes I actually Google Search some of these word..

renu

 

[gopaindu]

Dear Shri Nara,
Who said shudras are those with despicable qualitie? Whether a Brahmin, a kshatriya, a vaisya or a Shudra whoever discharges his duties sincerely, faithully, etc. is equal. There is no superiority among them. I want to tell you a story that I read in Chandramama of good old days. The story is a discusssion between the bhakthi of Shudra who sustains his livelihood by manual labour and that of Narada, a sage between vishnu and Narada. Then Vishnu asks Narada to take a cup full of oil and go round the world and come. The condition is that even a drop of oil should not fall down. Accordingly, Narada goes round the world always thinking about oil should not fall down. After completing the task, Vishnu asked Narada how many times you thought of me while going round the world. Narada replied that I was always thinking that oil should not fall down. Then Vishnu asked him now you tell me the Bhakthi of the former who completes his tasks thinks about me or recites my name before going to sleep is greater than that of yours or not and Narada replied in the affirmative. A person born in the family of brahmin having despicable qualities would be despised as Shudra. Here Shudra here implies ignarance of the truth. Normally, if a shudra out of ignorance commits any sin the punishment for the same will be minimal whereas if the same sin is committed by a brahmin, the punishment is manifold of the punishment for Shudra. The reasoning goes like this. Whent he level of ignorance gets reduced due to aspiration for knowledge by a shudra, in the next birth, he becomes a vaishya who is less ignorant than Kshatriya and a brahmin but more knowledgable than a shudra. These words were heard by me in religious discourses given by those who were born in the family of brahmins. There is no way to test this philosophy because most of us including me, do not have the capacity to grasp the shastras which are written in Sanskrit. Secondly, even if some one who had graspeed the meaning and reveals the same to us, we do not believe because it has no scientific authority. Even in the case of so many discoveries, we believe scientists until they were proved to be wrong by a later generation in future. Our thinking in the past few centuries had been contaminated by foreigners who came to rule us and wanted us to be divided and fighting with each other over ill conceived beliefs and notions thrust on us so that their authority is not questioned. If somebody had told before Mohandas Gandhi espoused the cause of non-violence and its power, nobody would have believed the theory. Through non-violence he eas able to achieve the objective. This would not have been possible if a large number of supporters had not believed in non-violence. raja48

 

[gopaindu]

DearShri Nara, I agree with you that the word shudra is being in vogue among the brahmins who are not real brahmins who delude themselves to belong to Brahmin caste by virtue of their hereditary. In the present day context the so called brahmins barring exceptions use their brain to earn more and more money like Vaishyas (non Brahmins but usually wrongly denoted as Shudra due to ignorance). Brahmin is the one who tries to realise the Brahman (God) through Vedas and other scriptures. In that sense, it is difficult to find one such brahman even among a crore of people. The level of difficulty is high because, he is like any other person and does not have any special features to be recognised. One would come to know about such a person only if one moves with him and observes is reactions to many incidents in life. Mostly, such persons are ridiculed as the person who does not use his brains for his material upliftment and treats the animate and inanimate things are forms of God. raja48

 

[Iyyarooraan]

I just remembered a poem: shaile shaile no manickam, mouktikam na gaje gaje, sadhivo no sarvatra chandanam na vane vane.

Again nallAr oruvar uLarEl avar poruttu ellorukkum pey ena peyyum mazhai

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri gopaindu

...Who said shudras are those with despicable qualitie?

This has been discussed many times in many threads. Please look through the archives.

A person born in the family of brahmin having despicable qualities would be despised as Shudra. Here Shudra here implies ignarance of the truth.

Dear sir, please read these two sentences again, you will find one answer to the question you started this post with.

Whent he level of ignorance gets reduced due to aspiration for knowledge by a shudra, in the next birth, he becomes a vaishya who is less ignorant than Kshatriya and a brahmin but more knowledgable than a shudra.

Here is another one, please read it carefully again.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

... A person born in the family of brahmin having despicable qualities would be despised as Shudra. Here Shudra here implies ignarance of the truth. Normally, if a shudra out of ignorance commits any sin the punishment for the same will be minimal whereas if the same sin is committed by a brahmin, the punishment is manifold of the punishment for Shudra. ...

gopa,

i think the time has come to throw all these kinds of beliefs into trash heap.

in today's world, unless one espouses and practises absolute equality, one is bound to suffer. while many disagree, i think, our generation of tambrams are paying for the sins of our ancestors.

so deep, is the belief in caste superiority and also along with it, inferiority of other caste, is inbuilt into our senses, that even the most ardent denier of such beliefs, such as myself, find trapped by these beliefs, instinctively.

i have taken great steps not to pass on these sentiments to my children. i hope to God that having brought up in canada, their identity of being a hindu, is just that. not to identify themselves as brahmins. but as hindus. period.

 

[tks]

The profound meaning was not as self-evident as the other one. We can only identify that which is overwhelmingly revealed. Hence, in my humble opinion, you have to further improve so as to bring out anything profound through writing

OK, I will do my best to improve my writing!
However, I tend to take for granted that some of the foundational and basic aspects of a student of Vedanta to be a given. Such basics aspects frame the problem and often tends to be profound. In my experience, they also make most sense when they are assimilated & internalized (as opposed to some Vayu you mentioned

) - Now I know what kind of topics to engage you with

All - Next time we get an impulse to respond like a 'Ninja Warrior' in any situation we can ask ourselves - what is making us act that way? I know it may seem silly to a few of us but it is indeed a starting point of enquiry to notice the self conscious, self judging person in us. Presence of human suffering is not new to us. How do we deal with this sufferng ? Let me close this part of the thread with the following assertion:

- If we go to a therapist - there is no solution but treatment for long long time ..
- If you go to a Vedantist who has the 'adhikara' to teach - he or she will show you that there is no problem to cause that suffering in the first place

Regards,

 

[sangom]

OK, I will do my best to improve my writing!
However, I tend to take for granted that some of the foundational and basic aspects of a student of Vedanta to be a given. Such basics aspects frame the problem and often tends to be profound. In my experience, they also make most sense when they are assimilated preparation

foundational and basic — really profoundJ
Such basics aspects frame the problem and often tends to be profound — so, we can’t say beforehand? It is left to the discretion of the basics and the “problems” (?) which the basic aspects may frame of their own volition!
In my experience, they also make most sense when they are assimilated preparation - ??

All - Next time we get an impulse to respond like a 'Ninja Warrior' in any situation we can ask ourselves - what is making us act that way? I know it may seem silly to a few of us but it is indeed a starting point of enquiry to notice the self conscious, self judging person in us. Presence of human suffering is not new to us. How do we deal with this sufferng ? Let me close this part of the thread with the following assertion:

- If we go to a therapist - there is no solution but treatment for long long time ..
- If you go to a Vedantist who has the 'adhikara' to teach - he or she will show you that there is no problem to cause that suffering in the first place

Regards,

I feel this is the most forthright statement about Vedanta and [FONT=&quot]adhik[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ā[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ris which [/FONT]I have come across . You have a problem, you go to a therapist (may be the best in town) but he/she just treats you for eternity (till death — yours or his/her, whichever happens first), and that is too bad.

But you go to a vedantist who has the adhikāra to teach (what?)and he/she convinces youthat “there is no problem to cause that suffering in the first place” !
Please note – the adhikāri does not show that there is no problem, nor does he/she convince you so, but only shows that there is no problem to cause that suffering. i.e., there is no cause for the suffering or the effect (manifestation of symptoms), which you felt was due to some problem; you are just suffering without a problem to cause it. Is this not the same which the useless therapist does, who also goes on treating you because he/she is unable to find the cause of the problem? Great, long live adhikārīs of the world – they will make all human suffering idiopathic!!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

One Shri.Sivaswamy has written a book on 'Tamil Brahmins in Kerala' which is a publication of
Kerala Brahmana Sabha.The book hasbeen reprinted by popular demand and is priced Rs.100 within India.
While responding to a query on the Qualities of Iyers of today,Shri.P.R.Vijaya Raghavan has taken extract of page 109 of the book and reproduced in another forum.Let us see Shri.PRV says.
"I wish to quote from Tamil Brahmins in Kerala a publication of Kerala Brahmana Sabha.
Page 109 says"Every human being is forced today to effect changes in his/her lifestyle,way of thinking and acting lest he/she be left behind in the rat race.
We cannot therefore rest content with what our fathers or forefathers did or had done.
We must boldly accept the new pace of life and not shirk from the difficult task of improving the traditions of our unique identity as Tamil Brahmins wedded to Vedic Religion and Sanatana Dharma.As they say We have to keep running all the time if we have to even remain where we are.There is nothing in the Holy Vedas or Sastras that require us to adhere to old forms which have become outworn.
In the history of every community, a time comes when radical changes in the Religious and Social matters are sinequanon if the community is to exist as a living force and continue to progress.No custom could be usefull to all the people for all the times.We must make rational changes relevant to changed times."
Shri.PRV has concluded with the following query.
One would like to know whether the present value system in the community is conducive for continued growth/survival or whether it would slowly lead to reducing numbers and hence face extinction, similar to what is seen in Parsi Community.
Is a midcourse correction possible or feasible or necessary.
INMHO every Brahmin(why only Tamil Brahmin in Kerala)including various mutt heads
should ponder over in the larger interest of Sanathana Dharma.

 

[happyhindu]

One Shri.Sivaswamy has written a book on 'Tamil Brahmins in Kerala' which is a publication of
Kerala Brahmana Sabha.The book hasbeen reprinted by popular demand and is priced Rs.100 within India.
While responding to a query on the Qualities of Iyers of today,Shri.P.R.Vijaya Raghavan has taken extract of page 109 of the book and reproduced in another forum.Let us see Shri.PRV says.
"I wish to quote from Tamil Brahmins in Kerala a publication of Kerala Brahmana Sabha.
Page 109 says"Every human being is forced today to effect changes in his/her lifestyle,way of thinking and acting lest he/she be left behind in the rat race.
We cannot therefore rest content with what our fathers or forefathers did or had done.
We must boldly accept the new pace of life and not shirk from the difficult task of improving the traditions of our unique identity as Tamil Brahmins wedded to Vedic Religion and Sanatana Dharma.As they say We have to keep running all the time if we have to even remain where we are.There is nothing in the Holy Vedas or Sastras that require us to adhere to old forms which have become outworn.
In the history of every community, a time comes when radical changes in the Religious and Social matters are sinequanon if the community is to exist as a living force and continue to progress.No custom could be usefull to all the people for all the times.We must make rational changes relevant to changed times."
Shri.PRV has concluded with the following query.
One would like to know whether the present value system in the community is conducive for continued growth/survival or whether it would slowly lead to reducing numbers and hence face extinction, similar to what is seen in Parsi Community.
Is a midcourse correction possible or feasible or necessary.
INMHO every Brahmin(why only Tamil Brahmin in Kerala)including various mutt heads
should ponder over in the larger interest of Sanathana Dharma.

Shri Krishnamurthy Sir,

I have underlined a sentence above. I would be glad to know on what basis has Shri P.R.Vijaya Raghavan claimed such a thing. AFAIK even Kanchi Paramacharya asked everyone to go back to old professions, because the dharmashastras do not permit change of profession. Hence, Shri P.R.Vijaya Raghavan's claims are an exact opposite to what the shastras say.

Also it is amazing to read the plethora of the claims (on internet, books, etc) about 'vedic religion' made by staunch shaivites. Shiva is a non-vedic deity. Lingam worship is not there in the 4 vedas. On the contrary, the rigveda explicitely shows disdain for lingam worship. Yet, Shaivas and Shaktas make claims that they are following the 'vedic religion'. May i request Shri P.R.Vijaya Raghavan to clarify on this point also please.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I or Shri.PRV may not be in a position to clarify your doubt.The book is written by one
Shri.Sivaswamy and published by Kerala Brahmana Saba(www.kbstvm.org).
Either Shri.Sivaswamy or KBS can answer your doubt.
According to the views of KBS,the Brahmana Dharma does not mean simply sticking to some old rituals and traditions. The essence of this Dharma is 'Service to Humanity'.
I am a member of another Forum where most of the members are Scholars in our Scriptures( except a few like me who may be only reading without fully understanding
the contents).I will send a mail to one of the scholars and ask him whether he is willing to engage you in one to one discussion through exchange of mails.If he is agreeable,I will
share his mail ID with you through a PM.

 

[zebra16]

I am a member of another Forum where most of the members are Scholars in our Scriptures( except a few like me who may be only reading without fully understanding


Can you share the name of the forum if it is not confidential or if its membership is not restricted?

Regards,

narayan

 

[suraju06]

I just remembered a poem: shaile shaile no manickam, mouktikam na gaje gaje, sadhivo no sarvatra chandanam na vane vane.

Again nallAr oruvar uLarEl avar poruttu ellorukkum pey ena peyyum mazhai

Dear Mr. Iyyaaruraan,

நெல்லுக்கு இறைத்த நீர் வாய்க்கால் வழியோடிப்
புல்லுக்கும் ஆங்கே பொசியுமாம் -- தொல்லுலகில்
நல்லார் ஒருவர் உளரேல் அவர்பொருட்டு
எல்லார்க்கும் பெய்யும் மழை.

This is the செய்யுள். In this there is no பெய்யென. No offence meant. Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

I or Shri.PRV may not be in a position to clarify your doubt.The book is written by one
Shri.Sivaswamy and published by Kerala Brahmana Saba(www.kbstvm.org).
Either Shri.Sivaswamy or KBS can answer your doubt.
According to the views of KBS,the Brahmana Dharma does not mean simply sticking to some old rituals and traditions. The essence of this Dharma is 'Service to Humanity'.
I am a member of another Forum where most of the members are Scholars in our Scriptures( except a few like me who may be only reading without fully understanding
the contents).I will send a mail to one of the scholars and ask him whether he is willing to engage you in one to one discussion through exchange of mails.If he is agreeable,I will
share his mail ID with you through a PM.

Many thanks sir. Looking forward to your PM.

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Mazhai

Dear Mr. Iyyaaruraan,

நெல்லுக்கு இறைத்த நீர் வாய்க்கால் வழியோடிப்
புல்லுக்கும் ஆங்கே பொசியுமாம் -- தொல்லுலகில்
நல்லார் ஒருவர் உளரேல் அவர்பொருட்டு
எல்லார்க்கும் பெய்யும் மழை.

This is the செய்யுள். In this there is no பெய்யென. No offence meant. Cheers.

I have been remembering it that way. You must be right and thanks. I understood that when Nallaar calls for rain, it will rain. Maybe that good Nallaar are not there in these days.

 

[gopaindu]

reply to the post of Shri Nara commenting on my post.

Dear Nara,
In my opinion brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra and a sub division of Shudra viz, Chandala all are equal and essential. I never consider anyone as brahmin just because he was born in the family of brahmins. I consider God has created disparity among people in terms of intellect, broadmindedness, etc. with a view to create and sustain the community of human beings. If there is no disparity then the world will collapse. Even in the present day world, a person is called officer and his subordinate as assistant another is the owner of the enterprise. If all are equal then the enterprise can not survive for the sole reason that Owner is responsible for the whole enterprise whereas the officer is responsible for proper functioning of his subordinates and the subordinates are accountable only to their officer primarily. Notwithstanding, I am unable to understand your comments on my post. I will be thankful, if you could kindly make me understand.raja48

 

[gopaindu]

Dear Iyyarooran,
Only in Thirukkural, the phras ( Pey ena Peyyum Mazhai) is found w.r.t. the lady who is devoted to her husband but not god. I think there is an unintentional error.raja48

 

[saidevo]

Here is an interesting thread on the subject of brahmins:
how to get converted into Brahmin - IndusLadies

any solutions from our end?