What makes one a Tamil Brahmin these days?

[sangom]

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Dear Shri Nara,

You see the matter whereas I see the soul. Why is it that matter need be the origin of any effect? In fact the function you are attributing to the genes require that genes know the importance of cooperation and probably are in fact cooperating to perform their function. This view favors a holistic functioning of body which is more of a spiritual model. Out of any synergy emerges a unified driving force and given the synergistic make up of the body, a soul could well be the real driving force of the body.

Crystal formation in absolutely materialistic media is also a very coordinated action of the molecules; is it also a synergistic action driven by a soul? An analphabet's doubt

 

[Nara]

Crystal formation in absolutely materialistic media is also a very coordinated action of the molecules; is it also a synergistic action driven by a soul?

The confusion stems from human-centric thinking. This is why sravna ascribes anthropomorphic trait to gene, like the "genes know". To know is a trait of beings that are alive. Genes are mere chemicals, they simply can't "know" anything.

Genes "know" nothing any more than a software program "knows" anything. The genes we carry now are the ones that bestowed both physical and mental (both are material) characteristics to our fore-parents to survive and procreate, and thus pass those genes down the line. Each and every one of us is a success story of this process. The genes that make us feel compassion have come to us through this same process.

To understand why compassion and cooperation stem from genes one must first abandon the human-centric thinking, and be humble enough to look at humans as one among the many life forms that inhabit the earth.

Cheers!

 

[tks]

Dear Shri Nara, Shri Sangom,

If materialists start being compassionate then they cease being materialists. They qualify as spiritualists. These two are diametrically opposite in nature that both cannot possess the same characteristics. Both the terms carry a certain meaning and you cannot impose on it something which goes against that meaning One is the anti of the other. If one is selfish the other is not and if one goes after money the other does not. The differences are clearly demarcated.

Sravana-ji -
From some of your posting I gather that you are emphasizing the importance of right attitude and preparation required for knowledge of ultimate reality which is Sathyam. Let me share a few high level comments.

It is hard for a person to generate humility or compassion on their own. Such traits are certainly not sustainable if they are not arising out of shraddha to learn the truth about oneself and approach Upanishads as a Pramana. While I consider myself a student, I was surprised at the level of confusion as evidenced by posting on such topics elsewhere in other threads by self-proclaimed experts endlessly arguing about the same points! I think I have learnt that this is a Tamil Brahmin identity attribute regardless of whether they do or do not consider themselves with that identity

Perhaps I see this trait in myself too LoL

Since my goal is not to change anyone I have tended to engage with serious sadhakas and only if I think the exchange would lead to my self-growth. I dont mean in this forum but in life in general.

Most religions including all of religious traditions of Hindus as well religion of Atheism exclusively works towards two pursuits - Artha (Security) and Kama (desires). Even those people that give charity or trying to do good deeds or try to be a ‘good person’ in order for better 'after life' whatever that may be by any belief system is also working towards Artha. All so called materialists pursue Artha and Kama. It is hard to define a spiritualist but almost all those that we tend to come across are also working towards Artha of some kind. Many of the Sadhus and Sannyasis pursue this as well. There is nothing wrong with this as they are (Artha and Kama) legitimate pursuits but often they arise out of confused knowledge which becomes a source of their suffering.

The character traits you have emphasized cannot arise unless one truly understands why Dharma has to be a Purshartha. This is simply not possible with any amount of research into any religious traditions including those of Hindus. I will not even mention Moksha as a Purushartha in this posting since for most people it is one more thing to attain and in that sense it is Artha the way they approach it.

Some people out of fear may talk about Dharma as a pursuit but it is driven by a mindset applicable to Artha pursuit only.


When you made a comment that humility can be measure of maturity of a person (using my words to paraphrase what you may have written) it is possible only if such humility is arising out of knowledge. Where there is humility there is also courage! The opposite is also true. Where there is ignorance we find a 'deadly combination' of arrogance and stupidity which is plentiful and does great harm to humanity.

Though we really do not have (m)any true Brahmins from the definition of the qualities they are supposed to have such as humility, we do have many aspirants regardless of birth or what they do for living. In that sense a Brahmin cannot be called so because of birth but by the qualities they are aspiring such as the one detailed in Tattvabodha or Chapter 13 or 18 of Bhagavad Gita.

Regardless I consider the term to mean a cultural identity and a propensity to argue without substance

–

That is a bit if humor and do not mean to set of many asking for a Moderator intervention.. Come on, Tamil Brahmins can take it easy and smile as well now and then!

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Though we really do not have (m)any true Brahmins from the definition of the qualities they are supposed to have such as humility, we do have many aspirants regardless of birth or what they do for living. In that sense a Brahmin cannot be called so because of birth but by the qualities they are aspiring such as the one detailed in Tattvabodha or Chapter 13 or 18 of Bhagavad Gita.

Shri TKS, so you are now saying that a brahmin is one who is "aspiring for qualities" as described in tatvabodha or chapter 13 / 18 of Gita. Which means the whole human population across the world is made up of 'brahmins', in someway or the other. Nice defnition you have. Unfortunately from the traditional / orthodox pov, it will go bust.

Regardless I consider the term to mean a cultural identity and a propensity to argue without substance

–

That is a bit if humor and do not mean to set of many asking for a Moderator intervention.. Come on, Tamil Brahmins can take it easy and smile as well now and then!

Regards

So you bring up the moderator intervention again. TKS, seriously chuckling is the least thing i can do when i see posts as yours. And i do enjoy it...

Regards.

 

[sravna]

Shri Sangom,

1. Co-ordination implies 2+2 =5.
2. Co-ordination also implies unity in action.

Apply these concepts at the level of energy

1. implies a higher level energy emerges
2. implies this energy is the unified energy

I would say whenever an order is created it is the work of synergy or the aligning of complementary forces. You may not say that the crystal formation is driven by a soul but the order is probably created as above. The order when it is at the physical level produces beauty among other things and in the case of something as the human brain, produces intelligence. When you are recognizing beauty it is the recognition of the underlying holistic order.

 

[tks]

Shri TKS, so you are now saying that a brahmin is one who is "aspiring for qualities" as described in tatvabodha or chapter 13 / 18 of Gita. Which means the whole human population across the world is made up of 'brahmins', in someway or the other. Nice defnition you have. Unfortunately from the traditional / orthodox pov, it will go bust.


So you bring up the moderator intervention again. TKS, seriously chuckling is the least thing i can do when i see posts as yours. And i do enjoy it...

Regards.

Happy-Hindu ji-

Sincerely, I was not thinking about you now or earlier when I made a comment about moderator intervention - Even in this thread there were others before you ever mentioned that. Plus I saw that in other posts in other threads. This was not directed at anyone and certainly not you.

The areas you focus (history, weaknesses of human beings) may be important but are not of interersts to me. I am interested in timeless principles that do not need history for justification and those principles that can help in ones personal growth and maturity.

I will not argue with your caste based focus of the word Brahmin. I have explained enough times the meaning the way I understand it. The whole world is not aspiring based on the defintion I expressed but very few from the whole world regardless of their birth are aspiring with sincerity. I will agree to disagree with you if you have challenges.

Regards

 

[sravna]

Sravana-ji -
From some of your posting I gather that you are emphasizing the importance of right attitude and preparation required for knowledge of ultimate reality which is Sathyam. Let me share a few high level comments.

It is hard for a person to generate humility or compassion on their own. Such traits are certainly not sustainable if they are not arising out of shraddha to learn the truth about oneself and approach Upanishads as a Pramana. While I consider myself a student, I was surprised at the level of confusion as evidenced by posting on such topics elsewhere in other threads by self-proclaimed experts endlessly arguing about the same points! I think I have learnt that this is a Tamil Brahmin identity attribute regardless of whether they do or do not consider themselves with that identity

Perhaps I see this trait in myself too LoL

Since my goal is not to change anyone I have tended to engage with serious sadhakas and only if I think the exchange would lead to my self-growth. I dont mean in this forum but in life in general.

Most religions including all of religious traditions of Hindus as well religion of Atheism exclusively works towards two pursuits - Artha (Security) and Kama (desires). Even those people that give charity or trying to do good deeds or try to be a ‘good person’ in order for better 'after life' whatever that may be by any belief system is also working towards Artha. All so called materialists pursue Artha and Kama. It is hard to define a spiritualist but almost all those that we tend to come across are also working towards Artha of some kind. Many of the Sadhus and Sannyasis pursue this as well. There is nothing wrong with this as they are (Artha and Kama) legitimate pursuits but often they arise out of confused knowledge which becomes a source of their suffering.

The character traits you have emphasized cannot arise unless one truly understands why Dharma has to be a Purshartha. This is simply not possible with any amount of research into any religious traditions including those of Hindus. I will not even mention Moksha as a Purushartha in this posting since for most people it is one more thing to attain and in that sense it is Artha the way they approach it.

Some people out of fear may talk about Dharma as a pursuit but it is driven by a mindset applicable to Artha pursuit only.


When you made a comment that humility can be measure of maturity of a person (using my words to paraphrase what you may have written) it is possible only if such humility is arising out of knowledge. Where there is humility there is also courage! The opposite is also true. Where there is ignorance we find a 'deadly combination' of arrogance and stupidity which is plentiful and does great harm to humanity.

Though we really do not have (m)any true Brahmins from the definition of the qualities they are supposed to have such as humility, we do have many aspirants regardless of birth or what they do for living. In that sense a Brahmin cannot be called so because of birth but by the qualities they are aspiring such as the one detailed in Tattvabodha or Chapter 13 or 18 of Bhagavad Gita.

Regardless I consider the term to mean a cultural identity and a propensity to argue without substance

–

That is a bit if humor and do not mean to set of many asking for a Moderator intervention.. Come on, Tamil Brahmins can take it easy and smile as well now and then!

Regards

Dear Shri TKS,

The really nice thing about hinduism is that it recognizes there are differing inherent capabilities and that it makes sense to live accordingly. This philosophy is reflected also in the setting of the four major goals of life. Some possess a mind that makes it suitable for pursuing the artha goal, whereas some others the dharma goal. But I think the yuga also plays a role. In a kaliyuga say, you find a number of souls tuned for the artha goal. The artha and kama goals are meant to make you aspire for and discard them for the more desirable dharma goal and then for the ultimate goal of moksha.

 

[happyhindu]

Happy-Hindu ji-

Sincerely, I was not thinking about you now or earlier when I made a comment about moderator intervention - Even in this thread there were others before you ever mentioned that. Plus I saw that in other posts in other threads. This was not directed at anyone and certainly not you.

The areas you focus (history, weaknesses of human beings) may be important but are not of interersts to me. I am interested in timeless principles that do not need history for justification and those principles that can help in ones personal growth and maturity.

I will not argue with your caste based focus of the word Brahmin. I have explained enough times the meaning the way I understand it. The whole world is not aspiring based on the defintion I expressed but very few from the whole world regardless of their birth are aspiring with sincerity. I will agree to disagree with you if you have challenges.

Regards

Shri TKS,

Thankyou for the note. I was hasty in assuming that you meant me while referring to 'moderator's intervention'. Am sorry sir.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

The confusion stems from human-centric thinking. This is why sravna ascribes anthropomorphic trait to gene, like the "genes know". To know is a trait of beings that are alive. Genes are mere chemicals, they simply can't "know" anything.

Genes "know" nothing any more than a software program "knows" anything. The genes we carry now are the ones that bestowed both physical and mental (both are material) characteristics to our fore-parents to survive and procreate, and thus pass those genes down the line. Each and every one of us is a success story of this process. The genes that make us feel compassion have come to us through this same process.

To understand why compassion and cooperation stem from genes one must first abandon the human-centric thinking, and be humble enough to look at humans as one among the many life forms that inhabit the earth.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Please see Shri Sravna's reply to mine here. He seems to explain crystal formation as "the work of synergy or the aligning of complementary forces". Though, frankly, I always found it difficult to understand Shri Sravna's high metaphysics, this probably beats all the past pronouncements of his IMO . May I expect your comments on the said post?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Nara,

Please see Shri Sravna's reply to mine here. He seems to explain crystal formation as "the work of synergy or the aligning of complementary forces". Though, frankly, I always found it difficult to understand Shri Sravna's high metaphysics, this probably beats all the past pronouncements of his IMO . May I expect your comments on the said post?

Dear Shri Sangom,

I am really at a loss to understand the reason for the antics that seems to define your recent behavior. Instead of ever trying to be sarcastic about what others say, if you would educate us with your knowledge your value would be appreciated

 

[gopaindu]

Simplicity in all spheres, caring for other living beings including human beings to the extent possible. Faith in God, in the cycle of births and deaths, respect for Vedas & other religious literature and trying to find answers for the questions/doubts that arise within oneself and last but not the least salvation of the soul. The above attributes mainly constitute a brahmin and nearer to God irrespective of the caste,creed, religion. This is my view. Of course, there is no provision for conversion from one caste to another caste within the same birth. Peform your duty sincerely and do not bother to be recognised as a brahmin by others. raja48

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I am really at a loss to understand the reason for the antics that seems to define your recent behavior. Instead of ever trying to be sarcastic about what others say, if you would educate us with your knowledge your value would be appreciated

Shri Sravna,

There was an occasion earlier also when someone tried to butt in through a post addressed by me to someone else and the SM then ruled that it is not correct. Here my post is addressed to Shri Nara and I have said as follows, in it :"Please see Shri Sravna's reply to mine here. He seems to explain crystal formation as "the work of synergy or the aligning of complementary forces". Though, frankly, I always found it difficult to understand Shri Sravna's high metaphysics, this probably beats all the past pronouncements of his IMO

. May I expect your comments on the said post?"

I cannot think of any sarcasm being read into the first and the last (the fourth) sentences. Anyway you may kindly point out where the sarcasm is and why it is so.

Commenting on another poster (member) about his "recent behavior", antics, etc., do not IMO add value to you or your posts. Whether such comments violate the forum rules I do not know.

I presume that Shri Nara, himself a Professor, is trying hard to educate with his posts, but apparently with very little result; so I cannot even dream of educating anyone.

 

[Nara]

...Please see Shri Sravna's reply to mine here. He seems to explain crystal formation as "the work of synergy or the aligning of complementary forces"....May I expect your comments on the said post?

Dear Shri Sangom sir,

I read the post in question several times. It is indeed enigmatic. Even though I totally don't understand the purport of the first part of the post, I think sravna is saying in the second section of the post that what lies beneath the order, which produces beauty, is holistic order, namely, the supreme. sravna, please correct me if I have misunderstood you.

But, my view is, matter itself is neutral, there is nothing innately beautiful in it. We are conditioned by evolution to see something as beautiful or hideous. Interestingly, the VA/SV doctrine says the same thing, in a slightly different way. They say it is one's karma that makes a substance seem favorable or unfavorable.

Order and symmetry seems to be an ingredient for something to appear beautiful to us. This is why the adage, "beauty is only skin deep" is technically false -- any asymmetry in what lies under the skin will make the person seem physically ugly. No supernatural explanation is needed.

Cheers!

 

[tks]

Shri TKS,

Thankyou for the note. I was hasty in assuming that you meant me while referring to 'moderator's intervention'. Am sorry sir.

Regards.

HappyHindu-ji -

Absolutely no need to say sorry IMHO though I do appreciate your gracious nature for acknowledging a misunderstanding. I also knew when you did mention anything about a moderator a while ago in one of your posts, it was simply to make sure that you were not misunderstood by me. And I did not.

Thanks for your note as well.

Regards

 

[tks]

Simplicity in all spheres, caring for other living beings including human beings to the extent possible. Faith in God, in the cycle of births and deaths, respect for Vedas & other religious literature and trying to find answers for the questions/doubts that arise within oneself and last but not the least salvation of the soul. The above attributes mainly constitute a brahmin and nearer to God irrespective of the caste,creed, religion. This is my view. Of course, there is no provision for conversion from one caste to another caste within the same birth. Peform your duty sincerely and do not bother to be recognised as a brahmin by others. raja48

Gopaindu-ji -

There are a few words I do not use while describing our traditions. One is faith which usually means suspension of reason. Shraddha is a different and is not to be translated as Faith though often it is done that way confusing the teachings.

Similarly there are no souls or salvation - these are 'faith' based preaching words which has crept into Hinduism unfortunatly. We have the notion of Sukhma Sharira as opposed to our 'gross body' that may be translated to Soul but being that it is a Sharira and is therefore not YOU the subject ..Similarly heaven is not Swarga etc

I do not believe in God when Iswara is something that has to be understood (just like we would not say "I believe in existence of gravity" etc). To preach someone is easy since it is based on faith and you are already asking a person to suspend ability to reason when they are preached. To teach is much harder since one has to deal with all the assumptions the person has and remove ignorance.

Like Vivekananda said in one of his lectures - it is better to be a rank atheist than someone that believes in God out of fear (and I am paraphrasing my understanding). So belief in God is not necessary.

Also let us get rid of caste concept fully since it has no place in today's life. Let us instead emphasize qualities of a person that we all can aspire towards. There is no reason anyone has to think of aspiring for a different caste identity then - that will be demeaning.

Regards

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom sir,

I read the post in question several times. It is indeed enigmatic. Even though I totally don't understand the purport of the first part of the post, I think sravna is saying in the second section of the post that what lies beneath the order, which produces beauty, is holistic order, namely, the supreme. sravna, please correct me if I have misunderstood you.

But, my view is, matter itself is neutral, there is nothing innately beautiful in it. We are conditioned by evolution to see something as beautiful or hideous. Interestingly, the VA/SV doctrine says the same thing, in a slightly different way. They say it is one's karma that makes a substance seem favorable or unfavorable.

Order and symmetry seems to be an ingredient for something to appear beautiful to us. This is why the adage, "beauty is only skin deep" is technically false -- any asymmetry in what lies under the skin will make the person seem physically ugly. No supernatural explanation is needed.

Cheers!

Ok here's some explanation. Anything physical is characterized by something in excess or of deficiency. The purely spiritual on the other hand is perfectly balanced. The goal of anything physical is to move towards the spiritual and so in the process keeps combining with its complementary counterparts to set right the excess or deficiency. This process goes on to different levels and a physical entity passes through the distinct phases of energy and matter both nonliving, living , intelligent and the divine. Thus at each major stage a leap towards spirituality is made until it attains its final goal of becoming one with the divine. Becoming more spiritual also implies being more and more in sync with supreme brahman or the ultimate reality.

Regarding the example of crystal formation cited by Shri Sangom I am not aware of the actual physical processes involved in that but I assumed that crystal being characterized by order, its formation should have involved highly complementary forces coming together.

 

[happyhindu]

HappyHindu-ji -

Absolutely no need to say sorry IMHO though I do appreciate your gracious nature for acknowledging a misunderstanding. I also knew when you did mention anything about a moderator a while ago in one of your posts, it was simply to make sure that you were not misunderstood by me. And I did not.

Thanks for your note as well.

Regards

Thankyou Shri TKS. While we agree to disagree with certain points, hope that does not dissuade us from being friends. So, hope we can be friends.

 

[tks]

Thankyou Shri TKS. While we agree to disagree with certain points, hope that does not dissuade us from being friends. So, hope we can be friends.

Happyhindu-ji -

Absolutely!

 

[tks]

Ok here's some explanation. Anything physical is characterized by something in excess or of deficiency. The purely spiritual on the other hand is perfectly balanced. The goal of anything physical is to move towards the spiritual and so in the process keeps combining with its complementary counterparts to set right the excess or deficiency. This process goes on to different levels and a physical entity passes through the distinct phases of energy and matter both nonliving, living , intelligent and the divine. Thus at each major stage a leap towards spirituality is made until it attains its final goal of becoming one with the divine. Becoming more spiritual also implies being more and more in sync with supreme brahman or the ultimate reality.

Regarding the example of crystal formation cited by Shri Sangom I am not aware of the actual physical processes involved in that but I assumed that crystal being characterized by order, its formation should have involved highly complementary forces coming together.

Srvana-ji -

I will let you continue your debate on this topic.

The only point I want to make is that the order or disorder we tend to preceive is from a limited knowledge perspective as a jiva. A crystal for example may appear symmetrical and that may seem as order. However Isvara manifested as order include what we perceive as order and disorder. However Physcial laws for example that tend to give rise to perceived phenomena such a s crystal formation or a chaotic systems both are manifestation of Isvara.

Regards

 

[sravna]

Srvana-ji -

I will let you continue your debate on this topic.

The only point I want to make is that the order or disorder we tend to preceive is from a limited knowledge perspective as a jiva. A crystal for example may appear symmetrical and that may seem as order. However Isvara manifested as order include what we perceive as order and disorder. However Physcial laws for example that tend to give rise to perceived phenomena such a s crystal formation or a chaotic systems both are manifestation of Isvara.

Regards

Agreed. Everything is a manifestation of brahman, Isvara being a manifestation with perfect qualities. Each manifestation has its own perception of reality depending on its own level of reality.

Why these different levels of reality? It shows the basis of the being and the blissful experience of brahman

 

[gopaindu]

I have come across abbreviations like pov/poy, IMO, IRM/ICM in some of the postings. Can anybody explain what is their expansion or what they stand for. thanks.bye.

 

[gopaindu]

The term synergy denotes combination of forces wherein each force has the capacity to neutralise the other. Human form is a combination of various forces in such a manner that they produce a very high level of energy when compared to other living things. Why such a combination does not take place in each of the living beings is intriguing. You can call it nature or God's wish. Further, for the sustenace of this world, a variety of living beings and a variety of human beings is essential. In case there is no diversity, the world will collapse. This is what I feel. Those who can further enlighten me in this regard, are welcome. To conclude, I will give an example which my grand mother used to say i.e. if there is a palanquin and if there are people only to sit who will carry the palanquin(Pallakku). Therefore, diversity is the basic requirement. If applied to modern times, if every body has only knowledge but not the physical prowess, then there will be nobody to do the ordinary chores which require physical prowess.

 

[Nara]

I have come across abbreviations like pov/poy, IMO, IRM/ICM in some of the postings. Can anybody explain what is their expansion or what they stand for. thanks.bye.

pov = point of view
IMO = in my opinion
IRM = inter-religious marriage
ICM = inter-caste marriage

Search for internet abbreviations for more, here is one, Internet Chat Abbreviations and Acronyms

 

[Nara]

... The purely spiritual on the other hand is perfectly balanced. The goal of anything physical is to move towards the spiritual and so in the process keeps combining with its complementary counterparts to set right the excess or deficiency.

sravna, there is universal agreement on whence comes knowledge, and they are, observation, logic and testimony. The Brahminical Vedantists also agree with this even though different groups place different emphasis. For example, the advaitins reject observation and logic as fundamentally flawed and hold testimony, i.e. the Vedas, as the only source of true knowledge.

Coming to your explanation, you have absolutely no basis for it, not in observation, not in logic, but above all, not even in any of the religious texts. What you are doing here is nothing more than describing the characteristics of what is called the invisible pink unicorn -- you can define it in any way shape or form, there cannot be any argument.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

The term synergy denotes combination of forces wherein each force has the capacity to neutralise the other. Human form is a combination of various forces in such a manner that they produce a very high level of energy when compared to other living things. Why such a combination does not take place in each of the living beings is intriguing. You can call it nature or God's wish. Further, for the sustenace of this world, a variety of living beings and a variety of human beings is essential. In case there is no diversity, the world will collapse. This is what I feel. Those who can further enlighten me in this regard, are welcome. To conclude, I will give an example which my grand mother used to say i.e. if there is a palanquin and if there are people only to sit who will carry the palanquin(Pallakku). Therefore, diversity is the basic requirement. If applied to modern times, if every body has only knowledge but not the physical prowess, then there will be nobody to do the ordinary chores which require physical prowess.

"synergy" is defined as "two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable. That is, if elements A and B are combined, the result is greater than the expected arithmetic sum A+B." (Synergy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
I don't know whether the statement "Human form is a combination of various forces in such a manner that they produce a very high level of energy when compared to other living things." is factual; we find, by ordinary observation, synergies of a much higher order of energy in the cheetah, leopard, tiger, lion (speed), snake (power to exist without food for long times), tortoise (long life), whale, even ants (lifting loads many times their body weight and moving them many body-lengths away) and so on.

Sustenance of this world, in the sense of its continuation as it is, is IMHO a two-way process. The various constituents are so interdependent biologically that they are bound by that natural law, accept it without murmur or demur and live on. At the same time if any of the constituents tries to break free of its natural place and role in the Nature's order of things, or if it develops characteristics unsuitable for its role set apart by Nature, it gets wiped out, completely and mercilessly.

Man (human beings) has been on the face of the earth, and of late lording it over. None of us know for sure what role Nature in its infinite wisdom has ordained for Man and whether humans are living in tune, in sync, with Nature's plan. Only future will tell. But if humans are prodigal or not suited for Nature's plans, they are sure to be obliterated. There will be none to sit on palanquins and none to bear the palanquins