What's in "Aarakshan"?: Is Reservation Debate Resuming?

[happyhindu]

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I do not have any idea whether iyers only kept belittling non-brahmins nor do I know whether dk goons attacked iyengars only. Anyway, iyengars were an offshoot from iyers of an earlier era and their difference is only at the philosophical heights. For the "aam aadmi" both are "paarppanars".

Sir, am only speaking from what have read so far and heard so far. Even in DK publications am not able to find (so far) public incidences of iyengars involved in putting down anyone publicly on the basis of caste. Maybe that was because as a philosophy the Srivaishnava theology lays emphasis on never belittling people based on caste. But it can be very well true that some iyengars in private looked down upon NBs (just as NBs looked down upon 'dalits'), but there is no record of them going public, that is, there is no record of any iyengar going to court to allocate varna (so far atleast). It may be possible that iyengars refrained from doing so because the ties between iyengars and balijas plus some sections of vellalas was very close (since the latter two are staunch NB vaishnavites). Maybe iyengars did not want to spoil the good relationship they enjoyed with these communities. Also sir, different sections of iyers, like gurukkals, vathimas, etc also pretty much kept to themselves and did not involve in publicly demeaning people on the basis of caste. The average vadama, brihacharanam, ashtasahasram, etc will also not be aware of such things. These things i think were restricted to a very specific and select group of colonial period brahmins who wanted exclusivism and very possibly self-promotion. Unfortunately wrath generated by this small group impacted all brahmins with regard to reservations.

 

[happyhindu]

I do not know what HH is getting at here. I have clarified several times what I mean by the term OBC. I use it to denote the communities that are classified as backward for purposes of reservation. In TN scenario, OBC would mean BC and MBC.

Well, since you used the term OBC in this particular sentence / context it seemed that you were using the term OBC to refer to 'shudra' class ::

If you cannot understand or appreciate this point, consider this: dalits being made ineligible to compete for the 50% seats reserved to OBCs is akin to non-FCs being made ineligible to compete for open quota seats

All the same if you say you did not mean 'shudra' class for the term 'OBC' in this particular sentence, i take your word for it.

Indeed, TN govt prepared list of OBC for reservation in central institutes includes all and the very same communities classified as BC and MBC. Let me know if this is wrong.

Am not aware of this so far. But i should think that since the central institutes go by the term OBC, instead of BC or MBC, such a possibility should exist. That however does not mean that the central institutes are using the term OBC to refer to the shudra class as some people on this forum tend to "indeed" do.

It is HH who is conveniently mixing the usage of term "backward" as in "social backwardness" and in "backward classes as defined for reservation purposes".

Well sir i have made my posts very clear. If my language skills are inadequate to convey things properly am willing to work on that. However if you are trying to assign a motive to my posts that is unacceptable -- i have nothing to achieve by "conveniently" mixing up terms.

These terms are not equivalent. While social backwardness is a necessary condition, it is not a sufficient condition. That is the premise of my argument.

A group of people (class) is defined as backward, based not just on social backwardness. Various other parameters are taken into account to check backwardness (like existing literacy levels, economic status, etc). I think i have made that amply clear in my posts on this thread so far.

Clarifying semantics is important. Confucius said that if words lose their meaning, people lose their liberty! But I am unable to explain any better :-(

From feedback, so far no one has said that i have used meanings of words without the right context on this thread. So perhaps, just perhaps, it may be possible there is a problem with your understanding also.

I meant the dalits cannot compete for the 50% seats allocated to BCs and MBCs, because of exclusive compartmentalization rather than hierarchical compartmentalization.

Already brought forth the point in post 36, that in 1921 there was 44 % reservations for Non-Brahmins but 'dalits' did not find sufficient representation in such a broad-based category (hence MC Rajah resigned in protest). So reservations have to be based on exclusive compartmentalization so that each individual community finds a place for themselves. The proportion of seats given to SCs and STs are based on their numbers (amount of population) as well as how backward they are economically, socially, in existing literacy levels...There is no room for hierarchical compartmentalization in this. The more the backwardness the more representation they must be given for their numbers.

Well, Kala Bhairava, if you have sufficient content to counter what i have put forth then we may discuss this further. Otherwise there is no point in going over the same points again i feel.

Thanks.

 

[subbudu1]

I feel as long as there are people practicing hinduism, then there will be a role for priests and philosophers. So am not also able to accept that vedic rituals will loose relevance over time. I feel it is impossible for anyone to join any system if they do not beleive in it.

One does not need specialist for a non specialists role. Orthodox hinduism as known today will not be alive anyway. I think Vedas and their aligned literature will go into history textbooks like the works of Plato or aristotle. Modern hinduism may exist in future, depending on circumstances, but its form is likely to be different. We are waiting for the final blow from neuroscience on the idea of atma. Already it has been proven that brain stimulation produces out of body effect. If this idea is accepted where is the scope of all the upanishads. Let us assume that nothing conclusive turns out , but how long people will believe that some ritual produces children, saves life, produces rain etc. The expose of all the swamis and anandas is a good thing. The role of middlemen is being eliminated. When science reaches a stage of concretely disproving ideas of religion, or atleast convincing people of it, which I think it will, the role of rituals is bound to be seen unnecessary.

Reforming vedic way of life , I think that is beginning to happen now. A renowned vadhiar's daughter married out of caste. Initially the priest was so shamed he stopped showing himself in ritual circles but later he is now back in full business. These are indicative of changing mindset of people. So your worry about reform at grassroot is happening may be at a reluctant pace now, but will be in full swing anyway.

What my concern is the creamly layer. The poor will always marry poor , the rich the rich. A poor B is more likely to marry a poor NB( who may enjoy reservation but not able to take benefit of it due to the creamy layer concept) . The reason they cannot take benefit of it, is that there are sufficient population in their community who would have made it well in life, and sustained it through repeated investment in tutorials, good education etc. I see decades of virtual standstill and a subsequent civil rebellion which can only change the situation. The poor will continue to be suppressed if they cannot make out of their situation. Today all this talk of vedas hold no relevance to economic power and will be inconsequential with progress of science and destruction of communities.

The real situation is that I can say with alarm the much repeated phrase " The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer". Seems true in the context of failure of anti-corruption brigade and the famous recession which seems more than likely to swallow any new avenues of growth in economy and probably damage the society in more than what is being comprehended today.

I hear from the pearl of my eye, who lives in USA. She says that last time when recession hit USA people went hungry. This time when it comes again it is likely to hit more hard. And consider the background of millions of people across the world already below poverty line. This current reservation without the creamy layer and safeguards for genuine poor amongst others will only lead to suppression , the recreation of a new dalit( poor upper caste and unfortunate lower caste who may intermarry themselves but these things dont help) and a final civil rebellion. which neither you nor I want. The signs are already showing up. The first example is the UK Looting and violence which has started.

 

[Yamaka]

"Orthodox hinduism as known today will not be alive anyway. I think Vedas and their aligned literature will go into history textbooks like the works of Plato or aristotle. Modern hinduism may exist in future, depending on circumstances, but its form is likely to be different. We are waiting for the final blow from neuroscience on the idea of atma. Already it has been proven that brain stimulation produces out of body effect. If this idea is accepted where is the scope of all the upanishads. Let us assume that nothing conclusive turns out , but how long people will believe that some ritual produces children, saves life, produces rain etc. The expose of all the swamis and anandas is a good thing. The role of middlemen is being eliminated. When science reaches a stage of concretely disproving ideas of religion, or atleast convincing people of it, which I think it will, the role of rituals is bound to be seen unnecessary." -Subbudu1 said.

Very well said.

"The real situation is that I can say with alarm the much repeated phrase " The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer". Seems true in the context of failure of anti-corruption brigade and the famous recession which seems more than likely to swallow any new avenues of growth in [COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]economy[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] and probably damage the society in more than what is being comprehended today." -Subbudu1 said.

I used to say that about 3/4 of India's population is subsisting on less than Rs. 150 per day income - that is about 900 million people.

Arundathi Roy says that 830 million people in India live on Rs. 20 per day income... extremely low income (as per her recent article in The Hindu)!

I believed that, from the experience of West Bengal where the Communists ruled over 33 years, Communist/Socialist Ideology did not deliver the goods as promised... and Dravidian Ideology delivered it better... the per capita GDP of TN is about U$ 1400 while that of WB is about U$900... this difference is maintained for a long time, at least 30 years!

For that reason, I supported the Liberalization and Reform which brought forth the Private Sector into the fore...private initiative, risk taking and acquiring better skills and harder work are the hallmark of "Liberalized Economy"...

Alas, that has created this "Rich is getting richer and poor is getting poorer" menace.

Does this mean that "High tides will NOT lift all boats"?

I am at a loss now... ideally what needs to be done?

Stay tuned.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

However if you are trying to assign a motive to my posts that is unacceptable

There is nothing wrong in having a motive. I think most people who write here do so with a motive/purpose.

Very few are exceptions! (who may be participating only for fun)

A group of people (class) is defined as backward, based not just on social backwardness. Various other parameters are taken into account to check backwardness (like existing literacy levels, economic status, etc). I think i have made that amply clear in my posts on this thread so far.

The problem is that HH is merely stating what the system says. She is not analyzing whether such criteria are strictly followed.

If backwardness is actually identified based on the aforementioned criteria, then such a group can only be dynamic. Why has, then, not even a single community (among few hundred odd communities) been excluded from the OBC list in any state after over six decades of reservation? In states like TN and Karnataka, reservation has been existing for 90 years now. How many communities are known to have improved their educational, economic or social status? Is there any data available regarding how the literacy levels of different communities have changed over the years? Not only has any community been excluded, there have been many additions and many more in the pipeline (Eg: Marathas in Maha, Jats in Rajasthan).

Based on the findings of sattanathan and ambashankar commissions regarding dis-aggregation of quota utilization and data available regarding composition of members qualifying under open category, there is sufficient grounds for doubting whether state govts such as TN diligently appliy NCBC criteria. On top of it, there is no creamy layer exclusion in TN.

Well, Kala Bhairava, if you have sufficient content to counter what i have put forth then we may discuss this further. Otherwise there is no point in going over the same points again i feel.

My point regarding OBC reservations is that there are communities classified as OBC that are so educationally and economically advanced to the level that they are able to corner a major portion of open quota seats. Communities that dominate open quota, if provided reservation, will absolutely clobber the reserved quota. This is detrimental to the interests of the really backward people. If NCBC criteria is strictly followed, these communities could no longer be considered backward. Not only do states like TN show a gross negligence but also they thwart every attempt to introduce monitoring of and accountability in the system. Thus they have reduced this system into social injustice. It makes the system vicious and unending and blame for the ever worsening plight of truly backward people is put on the shoulders of FC (whether orthodox or otherwise) whereas the real solution is in fixing of the system and in its implementation as originally intended.

I have seen that the pro-reservationists often tend to attack extreme positions and fail to acknowledge the flaws in the system. I am merely pointing out the anomalies. No need to engage me in a discussion if one feels that my assertions are unfounded.

 

[happyhindu]

There is nothing wrong in having a motive. I think most people who write here do so with a motive/purpose.

Very few are exceptions! (who may be participating only for fun)

Perhaps so, but that does not require you to assign a motive that am "conveniently" mixing up terms. That was uncalled for and unnecessary. Please let us stick to the points and counter-points.

The problem is that HH is merely stating what the system says. She is not analyzing whether such criteria are strictly followed.

If backwardness is actually identified based on the aforementioned criteria, then such a group can only be dynamic. Why has, then, not even a single community (among few hundred odd communities) been excluded from the OBC list in any state after over six decades of reservation? In states like TN and Karnataka, reservation has been existing for 90 years now. How many communities are known to have improved their educational, economic or social status? Is there any data available regarding how the literacy levels of different communities have changed over the years? Not only has any community been excluded, there have been many additions and many more in the pipeline (Eg: Marathas in Maha, Jats in Rajasthan).

Yes there is data available from census figures on literacy rates for SCs and STs (and changes in them over time). State instituted commissions take into consideration literacy rates for all individual caste as well.

As mentioned earlier am all for removal of creamy layer. But people will not like to be removed from the reservation lists unless they perceive betterment for everyone in their community.

90 years back reservations was for jobs under colonial reservations. Please do not confuse that with reservations that came to be applied to academic institutions.

In rural places, some BC and MBC families are becoming literate only in first generation now.

Based on the findings of sattanathan and ambashankar commissions regarding dis-aggregation of quota utilization and data available regarding composition of members qualifying under open category, there is sufficient grounds for doubting whether state govts such as TN diligently appliy NCBC criteria. On top of it, there is no creamy layer exclusion in TN.

Well we can also doubt whether a private instituion diligently applies exam rules, or does it pass out candidates merely by taking huge 'donations". Such points will only remain as a doubt unless there is some proof.

Satthanathan commission and NCBC criteria both suggest exclusion of creamy layer based on annual income. Now that salaried people pay TDS tax at source, it is not possible to conceal income details. So we can say people cannot make false claims anymore. But then India is a country where double income is earned from bribes. So imo these things are very difficult to check and implement properly.

My point regarding OBC reservations is that there are communities classified as OBC that are so educationally and economically advanced to the level that they are able to corner a major portion of open quota seats.

Well there maybe OBC-classified people who are able to get seats thru open competition. However, i have no idea about the numbers you state. Would you have some references where i can find figures showing that OBCs are qualifying for a "major" portion of open-quota seats??

Communities that dominate open quota, if provided reservation, will absolutely clobber the reserved quota. This is detrimental to the interests of the really backward people. If NCBC criteria is strictly followed, these communities could no longer be considered backward.

Not necessarily. Those who score very high marks from OBC listed communities can also be from poor families. So they may not meet the NCBC criteria for income ceilings.

Not only do states like TN show a gross negligence but also they thwart every attempt to introduce monitoring of and accountability in the system. Thus they have reduced this system into social injustice.

Sir you will need to provide some references to show "gross negligence", thwarting "monitoring and accountability", etc. Or these will be mere allegations.

It makes the system vicious and unending and blame for the ever worsening plight of truly backward people is put on the shoulders of FC (whether orthodox or otherwise) whereas the real solution is in fixing of the system and in its implementation as originally intended.

Well our judiciary and bureucrats cannot frame or help implement a system just to meet whims of politicians. Please do suggest pointwise what solutions you have for fixing this system.

I feel blame for casteism will be put on FC (whether orthodox or otherwise), irrespective of reservations, because it pertains to religious interest at a social interactive level outside schools and colleges.

I have seen that the pro-reservationists often tend to attack extreme positions and fail to acknowledge the flaws in the system. I am merely pointing out the anomalies. No need to engage me in a discussion if one feels that my assertions are unfounded.

Well there are flaws in the system. Most people i know (so do i) very much agree with removal of creamy layer (subject to conditions as mentioned earlier). There can be other solutions / changes also. No system can be 100% perfect. If a system can make 70 people out of 100 people literate to a college (undergraduate) level, it will be considered excellent. As mentioned above, please do suggest pointwise what solutions you have for fixing this system.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

I believed that, from the experience of West Bengal where the Communists ruled over 33 years, Communist/Socialist Ideology did not deliver the goods as promised... and Dravidian Ideology delivered it better... the per capita GDP of TN is about U$ 1400 while that of WB is about U$900... this difference is maintained for a long time, at least 30 years!

For that reason, I supported the Liberalization and Reform which brought forth the Private Sector into the fore...private initiative, risk taking and acquiring better skills and harder work are the hallmark of "Liberalized Economy"...

Alas, that has created this "Rich is getting richer and poor is getting poorer" menace.

Does this mean that "High tides will NOT lift all boats"?

I am at a loss now... ideally what needs to be done?

Stay tuned.

Shri Y,

In my very limited view, communism with selfless leaders governing the land, has done whatever qualitative advances Kerala has achieved. (I agree that even the Communist leadership deteriorated in their quality later on.) Recently one informed person told me that the best Panchayati Raj set up (better than even the Swiss cantons) is in Kerala and people are making good use of it. This may look like singing Kerala's praise too much; kindly excuse me.

The first generation communists of Kerala were genuinely selfless and interested in the welfare of the people. Of course they did some "leveling" by enacting the land-ceiling Act which grounded all the Namboodiri and other landed aristocracy; the land was distributed, though that was not completely fault-free. Education, secular education I mean, had taken deep roots right from the 1800's, thanks to the orders of and interest shown by the Regent Rani Gouri Lakshmi Bayi and almost all the subsequent rulers. Jobs were reserved for the "untouchables" from 1915 onwards under the monarchy itself. The economic inequality is probably the least in Kerala, among all Indian states.

Hence my suggestion will be a revival of communism with its genuine philosphy by committed leaders.

Now that the JLP Bill is most likely to become Law, may be, we can visualize "Ram Rajya" in this country with a JLP as clean as Rama was. Selecting only Ramanandis to be members of the 14-strong JLP may be a good idea, no?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Perhaps so, but that does not require you to assign a motive that am "conveniently" mixing up terms. That was uncalled for and unnecessary. Please let us stick to the points and counter-points.

Agreed.

My earlier transgression was a result of your constantly doubting my usage of the term "backward".

Yes there is data available from census figures on literacy rates for SCs and STs (and changes in them over time). State instituted commissions take into consideration literacy rates for all individual caste as well.

I have already said that my observations are related only to OBCs. Is such contemperorary data available for communities classified as BCs and MBCs in TN? If yes, I will greatly appreciate if you point me to it.

But people will not like to be removed from the reservation lists unless they perceive betterment for everyone in their community.

Of course, people won't. As member Sangom said why would anyone want to willingly give away such privileges? But the criteria for backwardness only allows comparison of a community's literacy levels to the prevailing average (Note: average not topmost) literacy level.

90 years back reservations was for jobs under colonial reservations. Please do not confuse that with reservations that came to be applied to academic institutions.

I was talking about communal G.O. of Madras province that was passed in 1920s; it provided reservations both in jobs and college admissions.

Satthanathan commission and NCBC criteria both suggest exclusion of creamy based on annual income. Now that salaried people pay TDS tax at source, it is not possible to conceal income details. So we can say people cannot make false claims anymore. But then India is a country where double income is earned from bribes. So imo these things are very difficult to check and implement properly.

TN govt does not even apply creamy layer criteria for its BCs and MBCs. What is the point in saying that income details cannot be concealed?

Well there maybe OBC-classified people who are able to get seats thru open competition. However, i have no idea about the numbers you state. Would you have some references where i can find figures showing that OBCs are qualifying for a "major" portion of open quota seats??

You can start by looking at the rank lists for admissions into engineering and medical colleges. I can provide some random links. [Anna university used to maintain such rank lists for engineering admissions. They seem to have disappeared].

TNEA Rank List 2010

http://www.tn.gov.in/results/dme/UG_2010_2011/MBBS_MERIT_LIST_120610.pdf

http://www.tn.gov.in/results/dme/UG-2009-2010/Meritlist2009-2010_290609.pdf

Not necessarily. Those who score very high marks from OBC listed communities can also be from poor families. So they may not meet the NCBC criteria for income ceilings.

So it is the poor who is dominating, isn't it? Yamaka will be happy to hear it

You missed my point. A community that dominates open quota, if given reservation, will also dominate reserved quota. Do you agree or not?

Can communities that have been dominating open quota for several years running even into decades (refer to case documents from voice council vs state of TN from 1990s) be still considered backward?

I feel blame for casteism will be put on FC (whether orthodox or otherwise), irrespective of reservations, because it pertains to religious interest at a social interactive level <em>outside</em> schools and colleges.

No! Blame for casteism is put ONLY on brahmins!

Blame for the educational and economic plight of truly backward communities are put on non-brahmin FCs also because there are some FC communities, especially outside TN, who are unwittingly siding with brahmins in the argument against reservations. Instead, they should try and game the system like their counterparts in TN.

 

[sarang]

Some of us believe that God takes hundreds of avatar to eradicate evil. I have no difficulty in accepting Anna hazare as an amsa-avatar to fight corruption-evil. Rama-rajya will be ushered in if Rama like person rules guided by vasishta like ministers and corruption free officials. Worth revisiting valmiki ranayana for relevant slokas.

When the japanese were talking of zero defect and zero downtime in manufacturing environment, we scoffed at the claims till the philosophy was imbibed and rules followed for achieving it. Rama rajya is certainly not for communism.

 

[sangom]

Some of us believe that God takes hundreds of avatar to eradicate evil. I have no difficulty in accepting Anna hazare as an amsa-avatar to fight corruption-evil. Rama-rajya will be ushered in if Rama like person rules guided by vasishta like ministers and corruption free officials. Worth revisiting valmiki ranayana for relevant slokas.

When the japanese were talking of zero defect and zero downtime in manufacturing environment, we scoffed at the claims till the philosophy was imbibed and rules followed for achieving it. Rama rajya is certainly not for communism.

Shri Sarang,

If we "revisit" Valmiki Ramayana we will come across a character by name trijaṭa, a learned but abjectly poor brahmin, living on the very outskirts of Ayodhya. His naked wife (because there was not even a shred to wear) asks her husband to go to the palace (Rama's coronation had been announced the previous evening) and try to get some money or gift to tide over their poverty. That was the income inequality in the impending Ramarajya . Surely sincere communists may not be interested nor be capable of competing with Rama in such matters!

Capitalism has now run its full course. except running this country and we have seen whether there was any progress.

 

[happyhindu]

I have already said that my observations are related only to OBCs. Is such contemperorary data available for communities classified as BCs and MBCs in TN? If yes, I will greatly appreciate if you point me to it.

Yes i had read this one yesterday -- its data for OBC enrollments for the years 2007 to 2010 : http://www.dise.in/Downloads/Publications/Publications 2009-10/Flash Statistics 2009-10.pdf
(Note: OBC here refers to communities recognized as OBCs by the indian government and does not refer to any varna class).

As you can note from the hyperlink, in Tamilnadu OBC enrollment for primary school classes are
1) 68.85% in 2007-08,
2) 69.49% in 2008-09 and
3) 68.80% in 2009-10.

Of this, Page 42 of the link gives a detailed breakdown of OBC enrollments (percentage of girls enrolled, elementary and primary enrollments).

Even until 2010 in Tamilnadu, OBC enrollments were just 68% - 69% and had not even reached 90%.

This shows how many OBCs are not even literate in first generation.

Of course, people won't. As member Sangom said why would anyone want to willingly give away such privileges? But the criteria for backwardness only allows comparison of a community's literacy levels to the prevailing average (Note: average not topmost) literacy level.

Cud you elaborate on this please? Where has backwardness been compared, based on prevailing average literacy level ?

I was talking about communal G.O. of Madras province that was passed in 1920s; it provided reservations both in jobs and college admissions.

Cud you please provide details on this please? Am not aware of this.
I thot communal GO of 1927 was the first reservations which gave each individual-community compartmental representation for colonial jobs. Was there any Communal GO passed in 1920s for academic admissions?

TN govt does not even apply creamy layer criteria for its BCs and MBCs. What is the point in saying that income details cannot be concealed?

Well i thot it wud be difficult to check true income in a country where bribery is rampant...so that may be a problem for implementing NCBC criteria of income ceiling.

Which states in india so far are practicing Creamy Layer exclusion?

You can start by looking at the rank lists for admissions into engineering and medical colleges. I can provide some random links. [Anna university used to maintain such rank lists for engineering admissions. They seem to have disappeared].

TNEA Rank List 2010

http://www.tn.gov.in/results/dme/UG_2010_2011/MBBS_MERIT_LIST_120610.pdf

http://www.tn.gov.in/results/dme/UG-2009-2010/Meritlist2009-2010_290609.pdf

Well am surprised to see so many BC and MBC candidates qualifying on merit.

I have one doubt though. Will they be filling merit seats under their respective BC and MBC quotas? Or will they be filling merit seats under open-quota ?

I was told if you get into a BC quota on merit (that is with very high marks) then you can choose college and course of choice.

So it is the poor who is dominating, isn't it? Yamaka will be happy to hear it

Well i said high-scorers from BC / MBC can be from poor families also.. This was just to show your suggestion of strictly following NCBC criteria becomes inapplicable in such a case. I have no idea if these top scoring BC and MBC candidates are rich or poor. Is there any data to show that they are poor ?

You missed my point. A community that dominates open quota, if given reservation, will also dominate reserved quota. Do you agree or not?

Yes ofcourse. But can you explain more ? What you are trying to convey is not clear. Also, do you have a specific commuity in mind ?

Can communities that have been dominating open quota for several years running even into decades (refer to case documents from voice council vs state of TN from 1990s) be still considered backward?

I have no details of the Voice Council versus State of TN. Unless you provide a hyperlink containing its details (which had asked earlier also) i will be unable to discuss on that.

No! Blame for casteism is put ONLY on brahmins!

This is a seperate topic. Let us finish discussing reservations first.

Blame for the educational and economic plight of truly backward communities are put on non-brahmin FCs also because there are some FC communities, especially outside TN, who are unwittingly siding with brahmins in the argument against reservations. Instead, they should try and game the system like their counterparts in TN.

Sorry its not clear to me. Am not aware of such communities also (outside TN as you say). Unless you explain further, i will not be able to comment.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Kalabhairava, just sharing some links, just in case you are interested :

1) You can find reports on enrolment of girls, enrolment in rural areas, enrolment percentage of SC, ST, OBC and Muslims, enrolment percentage of children with disability and various such reports in this website: DISE--District Information System for Education

2) Some educational details and statistics in tamilnadu - Sarva Siksha Abhiyan, Tamil Nadu

3) An interesting study that takes student's community into consideration - http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1002/1002.1144.pdf

4) This study takes school wise deconstruction based on comunity (bc, mbc, sc, oc) - http://www.nias.res.in/docs/Tanjore ler.pdf

Regards.

 

[sarang]

Shri Sarang,

If we "revisit" Valmiki Ramayana we will come across a character by name trijaṭa, a learned but abjectly poor brahmin, living on the very outskirts of Ayodhya. His naked wife (because there was not even a shred to wear) asks her husband to go to the palace (Rama's coronation had been announced the previous evening) and try to get some money or gift to tide over their poverty. That was the income inequality in the impending Ramarajya . Surely sincere communists may not be interested nor be capable of competing with Rama in such matters!

Capitalism has now run its full course. except running this country and we have seen whether there was any progress.

Trijata's story is interesting. Ayidhya kanda, sarga 32, slokas 29 to 43.

He lived in the forest, always carried an axe, a spade and a plough and made a living by digging the soil. Why he did not earn like other brahmins is not explained. His wife virtually ordered him to go to Rama for help. Means wives were bold enough to tell their husbands what to do. He, despite his simple dress, was not stopped by anyone till he met Rama. Unlimited access to the king. Rama asked him to throw his staff and take all the cows that lived in the staff-covered zone. means Rama could see his strength and gave trijata a chance to earn many cows. Rama then offered him more, but trijata did not ask for more, accepted the flock along with his wife and blessed Rama. Trijata was not a greedy soul. Are these not positives for ramarajya?

There is no reference to naked Mrs. trijata!

Income disparities will always be there - some people do not want to earn and some are not capable. Ramarajya means virtuous living and a just,dharmic king.

trijata story - a running translation:

Trijata story is covered in sarga 32, ayodhyakanda, slokas 29 to 43.

There lived a brahmana by name Trijata who was born in garga community and was reddish born in colour. He used to make his living in the forest by digging the soil, always carrying an axe, a spade and a plough."
His young wife, having been afflicted with poverty, taking her small children with her, spoke to that aged brahmana as follows:
"Throw away the axe and the spade. Carry out my word. Seek for the presence of Rama who knows his duty and see if you get at least something."
He heard the request of his wife, wrapped a strip of cloth that could hardly cover his body and set out towards the track wherein lies Rama's palace.
Up to the fifth gate, none in that society of men could obstruct this Trijata, who was equal in spiritual splendour with the sages Bhrigu and Angira.
That Trijata having approached the prince Rama, spoke the following words: "Oh, the most illustrious prince! I am a destitute, having many children in my family. I always dwell in the forest, with an occupation of digging the soil. Look to me, as you know."
Thereupon, Rama replied jestingly to him as follows: " By me, even one thousand cows were not given away so far. You will get as many cows to such an extent as you will throw this staff."
Winding his loin cloth round his waist hurrily and twirling his staff, he swiftly threw it with all his strength, excited as he was.
Flying away from his hand and crossing across the Sarayu river, that staff fell close to a bull amidst a flock of cows numbering in several thousands.
Embracing him, Rama of virtuous mind caused to be delivered to Trijata's hermitage the cows up to that bank of Sarayu.
Thereupon, Rama pacifyingly spoke to that son of Gargi as follows: "You need not express your contempt, for this was only a jest indulged in by me."
"I only desired to know your strength, which is unfathomable and hence this trial for you. If you desire any other thing, opt for it."
" I am telling the truth here. There is no limitation for you. Whatever riches belonging to me, are indeed for brahmanas. If the wealth earned by me is given abundantly to you, it will bring in joy and fame."
Thereupon, Trijata along with his wife accepted that flock of cows and were delighted. Then, he pronounced on Rama the virtuous man, the blessings to enhance reputation, strength, delight and happiness.
At that time in Ayodhya, there was no brahmana, relative, dependant, pauper or mendicant who was not satiated with befittingly deserving honour, gifts and respect.

 

[H.Krishnamurthy]

Sorry my Dear friends ,
We are too much deviating from the topic Aarakshan.
Aarakshan or the reservation policy is the consideration or consolation given to a deprived community person. It is only consolation to bridge the Social In justice mooted on some one for his Varna.
But today in India it has reached a stage that people like Mr. Tirumavalavan speaks that it is his birth right and no doubt a day will come in our country that all FC's should leave once our country to accomodate BC'S , OBC'S and SC/ST's.
No it is not a joke man , as on date in J&K all pandits and Brahmins have fled there for the reason that they have to accept islam and share their wealth with Musalmans other wise they have to quit Kashmir.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear HK,

re your post #64:

Are we not simplifying the whole kashmir issue by your statement re the pandits.

Yes, I agree, that the pandits, have left kashmir, out of fear for their lives. I have read that many are living in wretched camps, much like the sri lankan refugees did in tamil nadu.

Beyond that should we not look into the cause and effect of kashmir. It was only nehru’s love for his ancestral homeland, that kept kashmir within india. Otherwise, by the rules of the partition, kashmir would have gone to pakistan, jammu to india. Further more half a century of congress misrule and shenanigans, have caused this civil war.

Just today, there was a report about mass graves, the origins of which are debated – was it the separatist terrorists or indian army. Either way, in any war, it is difficult and almost impossible, to draw the lines of civility. When you suspect a person in front of you, is able, can, and willing to kill you, your sense of self preservation overrules any sane analysis.

I think the biggest sufferers are the common people of kashmir, many of whom, have had their normal daily life and routine disrupted.

Yes, the pandits are also a victims, but not because of a vindictive attempt at their islamization. They are the victims of a bigger play, of which they are an innocent participant.

Personally, I do not know how kashmir is all going to play out. It is a scary thought, that once usa leaves afghanistan, all those terrorists will look for greener pastures to practise their trade, and my gut feeling is that kashmir will be on top of their list. along with wester chinese province of uighur.

 

[subbudu1]

"Orthodox hinduism as known today will not be alive anyway. I think Vedas and their aligned literature will go into history textbooks like the works of Plato or aristotle. Modern hinduism may exist in future, depending on circumstances, but its form is likely to be different. We are waiting for the final blow from neuroscience on the idea of atma. Already it has been proven that brain stimulation produces out of body effect. If this idea is accepted where is the scope of all the upanishads. Let us assume that nothing conclusive turns out , but how long people will believe that some ritual produces children, saves life, produces rain etc. The expose of all the swamis and anandas is a good thing. The role of middlemen is being eliminated. When science reaches a stage of concretely disproving ideas of religion, or atleast convincing people of it, which I think it will, the role of rituals is bound to be seen unnecessary." -Subbudu1 said.

Very well said.

"The real situation is that I can say with alarm the much repeated phrase " The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer". Seems true in the context of failure of anti-corruption brigade and the famous recession which seems more than likely to swallow any new avenues of growth in [COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important][COLOR=#DA7911 !important][FONT=inherit !important]economy[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] and probably damage the society in more than what is being comprehended today." -Subbudu1 said.

I used to say that about 3/4 of India's population is subsisting on less than Rs. 150 per day income - that is about 900 million people.

Arundathi Roy says that 830 million people in India live on Rs. 20 per day income... extremely low income (as per her recent article in The Hindu)!

I believed that, from the experience of West Bengal where the Communists ruled over 33 years, Communist/Socialist Ideology did not deliver the goods as promised... and Dravidian Ideology delivered it better... the per capita GDP of TN is about U$ 1400 while that of WB is about U$900... this difference is maintained for a long time, at least 30 years!

For that reason, I supported the Liberalization and Reform which brought forth the Private Sector into the fore...private initiative, risk taking and acquiring better skills and harder work are the hallmark of "Liberalized Economy"...

Alas, that has created this "Rich is getting richer and poor is getting poorer" menace.

Does this mean that "High tides will NOT lift all boats"?

I am at a loss now... ideally what needs to be done?

Stay tuned.

The problem with West Bengal is not about risk taking. The Bengalis are a bold people. But the problem is with laziness and defiance. This is the legacy of the communism which was there. How do you make the people hardworking and at the same time keep greediness in check. The american model previous to the 70-80s may have been better. But one never knows. One cannot dump money into risky ventures. One needs extreme caution wrt money. Further be careful about spending. Spending a lot may fuel the economy in the short run but may leave the society high and dry even though growth may have apparently happened.
I would request the renowned economists here to share their solution

 

[sangom]

The problem with West Bengal is not about risk taking. The Bengalis are a bold people. But the problem is with laziness and defiance. This is the legacy of the communism which was there. How do you make the people hardworking and at the same time keep greediness in check. The american model previous to the 70-80s may have been better. But one never knows. One cannot dump money into risky ventures. One needs extreme caution wrt money. Further be careful about spending. Spending a lot may fuel the economy in the short run but may leave the society high and dry even though growth may have apparently happened.
I would request the renowned economists here to share their solution

I am not an authority on Bengal or Bengalis. But my knowledge, in so far as it goes, does not show the average poor Bengali to be more lazy than the average BPL indian who does not have any health problem which makes him unfit for hard work. Bengal has a feudal legacy and that could make some of the upper crust lazy and comfort-seekers. The average Keralite who is not in the upper echelons, also tends to be lazy but once he gets out of Kerala, he will be quite hardworking.

As regards defiance, and more particularly defiance of rule and law, I feel it is a legacy from the Gandhian days of non-cooperation, civil disobedience, etc. Breaking the (British-made) law was a sign of heroism and this somehow still lingers in the popular psyche; today people generally feel utter contempt for the present day politicians and probably they therefore treat the laws and rules with the contempt they feel for the law makers. Of course these are my individual opinions.

 

[suraju06]

Trijata's story is interesting. Ayidhya kanda, sarga 32, slokas 29 to 43.

He lived in the forest, always carried an axe, a spade and a plough and made a living by digging the soil. Why he did not earn like other brahmins is not explained. His wife virtually ordered him to go to Rama for help. Means wives were bold enough to tell their husbands what to do. He, despite his simple dress, was not stopped by anyone till he met Rama. Unlimited access to the king. Rama asked him to throw his staff and take all the cows that lived in the staff-covered zone. means Rama could see his strength and gave trijata a chance to earn many cows. Rama then offered him more, but trijata did not ask for more, accepted the flock along with his wife and blessed Rama. Trijata was not a greedy soul. Are these not positives for ramarajya?

There is no reference to naked Mrs. trijata!

Income disparities will always be there - some people do not want to earn and some are not capable. Ramarajya means virtuous living and a just,dharmic king.

trijata story - a running translation:

Trijata story is covered in sarga 32, ayodhyakanda, slokas 29 to 43.

There lived a brahmana by name Trijata who was born in garga community and was reddish born in colour. He used to make his living in the forest by digging the soil, always carrying an axe, a spade and a plough."
His young wife, having been afflicted with poverty, taking her small children with her, spoke to that aged brahmana as follows:
"Throw away the axe and the spade. Carry out my word. Seek for the presence of Rama who knows his duty and see if you get at least something."
He heard the request of his wife, wrapped a strip of cloth that could hardly cover his body and set out towards the track wherein lies Rama's palace.
Up to the fifth gate, none in that society of men could obstruct this Trijata, who was equal in spiritual splendour with the sages Bhrigu and Angira.
That Trijata having approached the prince Rama, spoke the following words: "Oh, the most illustrious prince! I am a destitute, having many children in my family. I always dwell in the forest, with an occupation of digging the soil. Look to me, as you know."
Thereupon, Rama replied jestingly to him as follows: " By me, even one thousand cows were not given away so far. You will get as many cows to such an extent as you will throw this staff."
Winding his loin cloth round his waist hurrily and twirling his staff, he swiftly threw it with all his strength, excited as he was.
Flying away from his hand and crossing across the Sarayu river, that staff fell close to a bull amidst a flock of cows numbering in several thousands.
Embracing him, Rama of virtuous mind caused to be delivered to Trijata's hermitage the cows up to that bank of Sarayu.
Thereupon, Rama pacifyingly spoke to that son of Gargi as follows: "You need not express your contempt, for this was only a jest indulged in by me."
"I only desired to know your strength, which is unfathomable and hence this trial for you. If you desire any other thing, opt for it."
" I am telling the truth here. There is no limitation for you. Whatever riches belonging to me, are indeed for brahmanas. If the wealth earned by me is given abundantly to you, it will bring in joy and fame."
Thereupon, Trijata along with his wife accepted that flock of cows and were delighted. Then, he pronounced on Rama the virtuous man, the blessings to enhance reputation, strength, delight and happiness.
At that time in Ayodhya, there was no brahmana, relative, dependant, pauper or mendicant who was not satiated with befittingly deserving honour, gifts and respect.

Folks,

Now we are all eager to hear from Sangom Sir as to from where he got his story of a naked wife of Trijata.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

The problem with West Bengal is not about risk taking. The Bengalis are a bold people. But the problem is with laziness and defiance. This is the legacy of the communism which was there. How do you make the people hardworking and at the same time keep greediness in check. The american model previous to the 70-80s may have been better. But one never knows. One cannot dump money into risky ventures. One needs extreme caution wrt money. Further be careful about spending. Spending a lot may fuel the economy in the short run but may leave the society high and dry even though growth may have apparently happened.
I would request the renowned economists here to share their solution

I still believe that

Private Initiative,
Risk Taking,
Acquiring Better Skills and
Harder Working are the key ingredients for a Vibrant Economy... "High Tides Will Lift All Boats".

My "back of the envelope" sketches show

Legacy & Structural Impediments & Poor Policy Implementation are the key reasons for keeping 830 million Indians on Rs. 20 per day income - a Sub-Saharan level, Haiti level poverty.

Legacy & Structural Impediments: This goes back to the issues of the need for "Reservation & Quota" for the Oppressed Castes in schools, colleges and employment opportunities.. the Constitutional dictates must be followed in spirit and letters.. and "the Creamy Layer" must be identified and eliminated so that ALL first generation kids of SC/ST/OBCs are given a chance to climb up the ladder.

Poor Policy Implementation: Congress and UPA have rightly deviated from the "Shining India" mantra of the BJP/NDA ideology and they want to bring forth "Bottom Up Growth"... Rural education, rural health, rural infrastructure development etc will pay sure dividends, if the policies are implemented right.

Of course, the Corruption which brings Economic Inefficiency, Inequity and Injustice must be contained, if not abolished from all walks of life.

Stay tuned.

 

[Yamaka]

Sorry my Dear friends ,
We are too much deviating from the topic Aarakshan.
Aarakshan or the reservation policy is the consideration or consolation given to a deprived community person. It is only consolation to bridge the Social In justice mooted on some one for his Varna.
But today in India it has reached a stage that people like Mr. Tirumavalavan speaks that it is his birth right and no doubt a day will come in our country that all FC's should leave once our country to accomodate BC'S , OBC'S and SC/ST's.
No it is not a joke man , as on date in J&K all pandits and Brahmins have fled there for the reason that they have to accept islam and share their wealth with Musalmans other wise they have to quit Kashmir.

Dear Krish Sir:

As per my estimate, the Govt controls only about 40% of the economy via taxation etc, and the rest is in the hands of Private Sector, which is dominated by the FCs (about 20-30%% of the total population)... that is, larger piece of the economy (60%) is controlled and benefited by about 30% of the total population!

This tells me FCs are doing fine... and will do much better in the future...I don't want to cry for them! Lol.

Your example of what happens to Pandits and Brahmins in Kashmir is NOT a typical case - as K predicts, sooner or later Kashmir will go to Pak, Jummu to India and the Ladak to Chinese...we have to permanently redraw the the Map of India at the very North...

Wait and watch.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I have already said that my observations are related only to OBCs. Is such contemperorary data available for communities classified as BCs and MBCs in TN? If yes, I will greatly appreciate if you point me to it.

Yes i had read this one yesterday -- its data for OBC enrollments for the years 2007 to 2010 : http://www.dise.in/Downloads/Publications/Publications 2009-10/Flash Statistics 2009-10.pdf
(Note: OBC here refers to communities recognized as OBCs by the indian government and does not refer to any varna class).

Thanks for the links! But that is not what I had asked. Perhaps I should have made it clear. What I wanted is information pertaining to individual communities classified as backward. I had already acknowledged that there are several communities in TN that could qualify as OBC. But it does not mean that every community that is currently classified as OBC will fulfill the criteria required to be classified as OBC. The data for the whole group does not provide any information about backwardness of individual castes and hence does not provide information required to refute my charges.

Cud you elaborate on this please? Where has backwardness been compared, based on prevailing average literacy level ?

I am quoting one of the criteria used by Mandal commission, which is endorsed by NCBC. Does TN have a different criteria to identify educational backwardness for BCs and MBCs? If so, what is it? Where can one find it?

I thot communal GO of 1927 was the first reservations which gave each individual-community compartmental representation for colonial jobs. Was there any Communal GO passed in 1920s for academic admissions?

Kindly refer to Champakam Dorairajan case which led to the first amendment of Indian constitution.

Which states in india so far are practicing Creamy Layer exclusion?

Almost all states follow except TN. Kerala govt did not follow which resulted in Indra Sawhney II vs Union of India case and the Kerala govt was basically forced to implement creamy layer exclusion after the landmark judgement in 1999. Of course nothing matters in TN. TN govt has not followed supreme court directives regarding this matter until now.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

On a related note:

SC seeks Centre's stand on dalit creamy layer - Times Of India

 

[sangom]

Folks,

Now we are all eager to hear from Sangom Sir as to from where he got his story of a naked wife of Trijata.

Cheers.

This is what I had read quite some time ago. I do not now recollect exactly where. I am trying the best I can and will post the source when I come across. In the meanwhile I agree there might have been some twist given to the story in the place where I read it.

 

[happyhindu]

Thanks for the links! But that is not what I had asked. Perhaps I should have made it clear. What I wanted is information pertaining to individual communities classified as backward. I had already acknowledged that there are several communities in TN that could qualify as OBC. But it does not mean that every community that is currently classified as OBC will fulfill the criteria required to be classified as OBC. The data for the whole group does not provide any information about backwardness of individual castes and hence does not provide information required to refute my charges.

Communities classified as BC and MBC in Tamilnadu are represented in the Central lists as OBC. If OBC enrollments were just 68% - 69% until 2010, it merely means around 30% of communities listed as BC and MBC in Tamilnadu are not even literate in the first generation.

AFAIK, various state commissions (such as Nagna Gowda Committe, Havanur Commission, etc) took each individual community's literacy levels into consideration. For backwardness of each individual caste, it may be a better idea to wait for the caste-based census of 2011 to be completed -- that should give us an idea of how backward any given community is. All the same, if you are challenging that some communities did not fulfill the criteria to be classified as OBC, then you will need to provide relevant proof.

Also, since you asked this:

Can communities that have been dominating open quota for several years running even into decades (refer to case documents from voice council vs state of TN from 1990s) be still considered backward?

please let me know the details of the Voice Council versus State of TN (from 1990s).

I am quoting one of the criteria used by Mandal commission, which is endorsed by NCBC. Does TN have a different criteria to identify educational backwardness for BCs and MBCs? If so, what is it? Where can one find it?

Which criteria of Mandal Commission?

Kindly refer to Champakam Dorairajan case which led to the first amendment of Indian constitution.

The Champakam Dorairajan case was heard in 1950 -- Srimathi Champakam Dorairajan ... vs The State Of Madras, Represented ... on 27 July, 1950 (personally i find it rather ironical that Alladi Krishnaswamy Iyer and Srinivasa Iyengar spoke of equality in 1950s. If only such people had existed and argued for equality of 'low-castes' in hindu religion instead of putting down people in the british courts in the early part of 1900s, things wud have been so different)...Just shows how things can change in a couple of decades.

Anyways, the Champakam Dorairajan case does not seem to refer to your claims that a communal GO passed in 1920s provided reservations both in jobs and college admissions. AFAIK, the communal GO of 1927 only gave reservations in colonial jobs. I have not come across any communal GO of 1920s giving reservations in academic institutions. So please clarify which Communal GO passed in 1920s provided reservations for academic admissions?

Almost all states follow except TN. Kerala govt did not follow which resulted in Indra Sawhney II vs Union of India case and the Kerala govt was basically forced to implement creamy layer exclusion after the landmark judgement in 1999. Of course nothing matters in TN. TN govt has not followed supreme court directives regarding this matter until now.

Perhaps Kerala is following. But which are the "almost all states"?

AFAIK, in 2007 the Centre rejected recommendations of a Parliamentary Standing Committee to exclude the Creamy Layer. By doing so, the Centre went against the Supreme Court order. Not just Central government, various state governments are also free to implement things as per the requirements of each state, as indicated by the studies of their respective state commissions.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

As regards defiance, and more particularly defiance of rule and law, I feel it is a legacy from the Gandhian days of non-cooperation, civil disobedience, etc. Breaking the (British-made) law was a sign of heroism and this somehow still lingers in the popular psyche; today people generally feel utter contempt for the present day politicians and probably they therefore treat the laws and rules with the contempt they feel for the law makers. Of course these are my individual opinions.

So true....we need not step into a railway station, just stepping into the streets is enuf to see this "sign of heroism", starting from paan-stained walls. We talk of eradicating corruption when we do not even have simple civic sense...