Who are we?

[kashyap]

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mami -- good research ! some more similar info -- now about Japan

Japan Finds Plenty of Space for Discrimination

http://www.hrdc.net/sahrdc/hrfeatures/HRF39.htm

 

[kashyap]

human rights should be contacted to stop the oppressive reservation policy

I think I am digressing a bit here. But I thought it is pertinent to point out the following lines on the web page at url mentioned above:

Societal attitudes, which lie at the root of discrimination, need to be altered, while domestic and international legal provisions need to be implemented if racial discrimination is to be eliminated in Japan.

:attention:
I think it is possible then to raise the "oppression on brahmins thro reservation" as a human rights issue and seek international legal provisions against this policy.

Thanks and let us get back to... Who are we?

 

[kashyap]

carrying the pot -- there was no need in very olden days

This definitely is nto a topic to discuss under this thread. But since LQ wrote about it , I had to write about it too.

Basically, there was no need to carry the pot in very olden days for the simple reason that people used to do it outside the village or town or city in open spaces and near( not very near) water sources such as river , lake etc. They used to do it before dawn and with sufficient protection from others eyes.
The carrying the pot stuff is recent -- around 1000 AD onwards and by then muslims had conquered large chunks of India and they thrust this work on the vanquished. ( All these info are as per Pandit A.M.Rajagopalan who wrote about this in kumudham jothidam some years back)

Besides I don't mind these people getting reservation benefits as long as they do not abuse it and allow the benefits to trickle down to all in their community. The issue comes when rich landlords and zamindars claim reservation benefits and poor brahmins are denied it and oppressed in other ways too.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Actually, the issue of social degeneration of Hindu society is an extremely complex study.

Some historical recap: The mohanjodaro and harappa civilizations happened around 5000 yrs back, and historical evidence clearly indicate the people in this civilizations to be dravidians.

Even such long time back, people had an extremely developed sense of hyigene and public sanitation. The excavation yielded well developed towns with seperate areas for granary storage, public bath pools, toilets with well connected drainage outlets etc. Some archeologists even suggested that the drain outlets had sloping profile and all such outlets joined a main sewer which took the refuse out of town etc.

Somewhere down the ages, the knowledge of townplanning was lost, people started going out of villages and into the forest for morning ablusions etc. and as you have stated, from around 1000 ? AD, the practice of carrying refuse on head started.

The stratification of dravidians by aryans with their varnashram was conviniently utilized to delegate the task of sanitation to the lowest levels, later, tambrams added extra chapters and appendix on unclean castes, pollution by sight , smell , shadow and touch etc.

A pathologically disgusting degeneration.........

This definitely is nto a topic to discuss under this thread. But since LQ wrote about it , I had to write about it too.

Basically, there was no need to carry the pot in very olden days for the simple reason that people used to do it outside the village or town or city in open spaces and near( not very near) water sources such as river , lake etc. They used to do it before dawn and with sufficient protection from others eyes.
The carrying the pot stuff is recent -- around 1000 AD onwards and by then muslims had conquered large chunks of India and they thrust this work on the vanquished. ( All these info are as per Pandit A.M.Rajagopalan who wrote about this in kumudham jothidam some years back)

Besides I don't mind these people getting reservation benefits as long as they do not abuse it and allow the benefits to trickle down to all in their community. The issue comes when rich landlords and zamindars claim reservation benefits and poor brahmins are denied it and oppressed in other ways too.

 

[hariharan1972]

What a contrast ?

Some archeologists even suggested that the drain outlets had sloping profile and all such outlets joined a main sewer which took the refuse out of town etc.

A pathologically disgusting degeneration.........

Contrast this with the successive "Dravidian rule" in TN - the main sewer runs through the city in Chennai !!!!!

As you rightly put it a "disgusting degenration" it is !!!!!

 

[kashyap]

Contrast this with the successive "Dravidian rule" in TN - the main sewer runs through the city in Chennai !!!!!

As you rightly put it a "disgusting degenration" it is !!!!!

Atta boy hari! Bingo and Way to Go !!!

 

[kashyap]

harappa was not dravidian alone-- it was vedic!

Actually, the issue of social degeneration of Hindu society is an extremely complex study.

Some historical recap: The mohanjodaro and harappa civilizations happened around 5000 yrs back, and historical evidence clearly indicate the people in this civilizations to be dravidians.

Even such long time back, people had an extremely developed sense of hyigene and public sanitation. The excavation yielded well developed towns with seperate areas for granary storage, public bath pools, toilets with well connected drainage outlets etc. Some archeologists even suggested that the drain outlets had sloping profile and all such outlets joined a main sewer which took the refuse out of town etc.

Somewhere down the ages, the knowledge of townplanning was lost, people started going out of villages and into the forest for morning ablusions etc. and as you have stated, from around 1000 ? AD, the practice of carrying refuse on head started.

The stratification of dravidians by aryans with their varnashram was conviniently utilized to delegate the task of sanitation to the lowest levels, later, tambrams added extra chapters and appendix on unclean castes, pollution by sight , smell , shadow and touch etc.

A pathologically disgusting degeneration.........

That the harappans were dravidians and aryans invaded them is pure fiction concocted by british and it is a pity that it is even now drunk by their admirers left over here in India.

Sorry to say this but the point is being missed here again and again...

Usage of fancy words and concocted and DEAD history and archaeology etc can never justify the clear and present oppression thro illegal and exhorbitant reservation policies carried out here now today happening in front of our eyes!



Anyway I am waiting on this thread .for KRS's post....

 

[hariharan1972]

Time out Guys !!!!!

LQ, Kashyap-ji,

Time out Please !!!!!

Don't want the discussions on pot carrying to become a "pot boiler" between you.

We will be better off moving on discussing what KRS sir will be posting.

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Re:Mohenjodaro & Harappa - being Dravidian ...

This theory had currency in my school years. Subsequent satellite imagery, archaelogical findings, and some irreconcilable facts have refuted this theory.
The new theory was trashed because a bunch of "Indophiles" and "political parties" (the Sangh Parivar, RSS, VHP kind of folks) put their weight behind it.
Oddly enough it is possible to champion the right theory for the wrong reasons!
I have tried to sift through some (certainly not all!) of these writings.
In my readings: B.B. Lal, Nicholas Kazanas, Edwin Bryant, and another Canadian archaeologist (forget the name) - who are proponents of the new theory seem factual and balanced.
I am no longer convinced that the Mohenjodaro & Harappan civilizations were Dravidian. Kazanas was primarily instrumental in my "conversion".
His work is readily available on the web.

Some historical recap: The mohanjodaro and harappa civilizations happened around 5000 yrs back, and historical evidence clearly indicate the people in this civilizations to be dravidians.

 

[kashyap]

hari thaz what i said in my post--time out !!

hari

I said the same-- time out on this topic atleast in this thread.

LQ we can discuss it offline or in another forum


mami
can you provide the url to the Nicholas kazana article ? actually these links should be put in a separate thread or forum so that many people will know the truth.

thanks

 

[silverfox]

Hey guys!
I like Maami's scholastic approach before she posts anything; that is the right way to do instead of postings based on heresay and one's biases.
Ms. Maami, please continue to write about this in a separate thread; very interesting stuff! Besides, you make it easy for all of us by doing the research!! (a backhanded compliment, I am sure!).

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Due apologies if this is the wrong thread location ...

Kashyapji,
http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/documents/rdp.pdf
http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/documents/rie.pdf
http://www.omilosmeleton.gr/english/documents/AITandscholarship.pdf

hari

I said the same-- time out on this topic atleast in this thread.

LQ we can discuss it offline or in another forum


mami
can you provide the url to the Nicholas kazana article ? actually these links should be put in a separate thread or forum so that many people will know the truth.

thanks

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

There is danger in that ...

Thank you for the compliments but don't accept everything I say - that would be the classic "easy" route.
As I wrote LQ elsewhere - my views are just as subjective as the next - you have to read, convince yourself, and form your own opinions (the Indian tradition avers that on the path to knowledge - you are on your own!).
I am happy to share what I know (and that is finite!) - but you have to work out your own theories.

Hey guys!
I like Maami's scholastic approach before she posts anything; that is the right way to do instead of postings based on heresay and one's biases.
Ms. Maami, please continue to write about this in a separate thread; very interesting stuff! Besides, you make it easy for all of us by doing the research!! (a backhanded compliment, I am sure!).

 

[murali]

Some of you have remarked on the drainage system of the indus valley system.For all we know, sewers might have been running through the streets of mohenjadaro.They did not have an underground sewerage system.

Historians believe the dessication of the river Indus to be one of the major causes of the decline of the indus valley civilization.and also in later times saraswathi dried up.

I have always wondered whether the overdrawing of rivers paricularly by urban people (for washing,cleaning) in a tropical land was the reason for the end of urban civilization in civilization.

Even today about 70% of our people do not have proper sanitation facilities.Sewers run through the streets in the smaller towns.We will require water management of high order to provide basic facilities.Our rivers are among the most polluted in the world.

India gets most of her rainfall within a three month period.The lean season includes a scorching summer.In the agrahaarams,sanitation facilities were minimal,but they took care not to pollute the rivers.

Even in sandhyavandanam,there are beautiful prayers of thanksgiving for the life giving nectar which water is.Aapah or Jala or theertha is extolled as the elixir of life,and also something sacred/pure embodying the rhythm of life.

 

[murali]

lotus quartz,

manual scavenging began during the muslim period.The depressed castes were made to carry night soil from the harem and zennana.The practice was unknown during the hindu period.I dont know how brahmanas come into the picture.

 

[murali]

KRS sir,
This is how i would define the vedic religion.

It is an ethical/ecological system that developed in the plains of the indian subcontinent.

The people who were creators of this civilization ,believed in certain universal values like truth(satyam),order(rita).They believed in the sacredness of words,for it is through language men communicate and they wanted men to be true to their promises.

They also believed men had obligations, codes of conduct to be followed,as a part of contract with Nature/iswara.in return for which Nature/iswara gave them the bounties of life.(cow/grains/water)."Iswara "might not have been used explicitly.

They had great love for poetry,music,horse racing etc(the ephemeral and the eternal, to paraphrase T.S.Eliot,one cannot do without either,as the muse on the net versifies.)
We see in their beliefs the basic tenets of religion/civilization.

They might have been also been guilty of a parochial/tribal outlook.It was a patriarchal society which treated its women with respect.

It is essentially a life guided by universal values in a particular setting.

The vedanta ,a natural progression from the veda,was basically the uncovering of the central tenets from what is only incidental.

I am not competent to talk about the philosophy of vedanta,the ultimate purpose of life.

Today in the hustle-bustle of everday life,while many huff and puff to make a living,we see the whole world coming together and see the possibilities of civilization,where free men come together,bound by universal values,trust and reciprocity to lead fruitful values enriching themselves and the society.

This might seem simplistic but i think this was the vision of the vedic seers.

The vedanta is a bit more involved because it tries to fathom the reason for discord and is therefore more indvidualistic.It places restrictions on the sadhaka(seeker) and charts`out path(s) for the seeker of truth.

 

[mrifan]

Elementary answer

As defined by the constitution of India, Brahmanas are an endogamous group, or caste, where membership to this group is only on the basis of birth to a Brahmana father. Like any other group, there will be some good Brahmanas, and some bad Brahmanas. Looks like a very straightforward answer. What else are we? Why is something so simple made out to be something more complicated?

Now if the subject of the thread had been, "Who should be Brahmanas?", then there might be something to debate about.

 

[lotus_quartz]

1. We are ordinary mortals like everybody else.

2. Selective cohabitation and endogamy have ensured preserving certain fairer shades of skin colour within the group (exceptions included).

3. Possibly, some genetic strains dealing with superior intellectual prowess (maths, sciences, reasoning, logic etc.) have also got preserved due to selective mutation.

4. Lack of physical exercise and protein deficient diets over the ages have resulted in this group becoming docile, defeatist (?) and prone to ailments like diabetes, prostrate, heart deseases etc.

1 & 4 can be scientifically or statistically proven. 2 & 3 are assumptions, which may or may not be correct.

 

[Shanti Brahm]

What is our common heritage?

I can only tell you as I've been brought up in a strict Iyengar temple priest brahmanas family where much of my family still practices strict sandhyavandanam,tarpanam rituals, sri yantra, laksmi-kubera pooja, shakti worship and study vedas as well as the local traditions of the temple. Even though we are Iyengar, we hold all Kanchipoorum acharyas with high regard and even as our own acharyas.

What we have been taught was to treat every person with dignity and that all people are equal. We may not let everyone in our house or in our temples but we treat every person as the incarnation of the Lord Govinda himself. We are even told to visualise the lord in their hearts whenever we see them. We respect other people's right to eat meat as we also hope they respect our right not to eat meat and not to eat with them but only among those who eat our own food and practice our own eating rituals.

In our very traditional orthodox and large brahmin extended family we are all told about the varna system except we all taught it backwards as the brahmin is the servent to all the other varnas. The brahmin is traditionally to give his life for the service of the Kshatrya and the Vaishya through conducting ritual and teaching and preserving the ancient teachings. The brahmin also is to serve the Sudra by teaching him the noble life of dharma through purana and the hari krishna maha mantra. For us all varnas are equal and are simply stations in life. As we believe in re-incarnation we also believe all varnas can be brahmanas and even brahmanas can be re-born as outcaste from indecent actions.

Living in America, I can look back at all our traditions and see it from a new and different percpective. But I can't help but admire the good naturedness and decency of the brahmin people. It is not like the "propoganda" we are fed at all. It's not Manu Smritri. Real brahmins are really different from the stereotype. They are a most decent, libertarian, fair, and upright people.

As far as modernists and orthodox and veg/non veg, I think there is room for all different types of people and that they should all be allowed to exist side by side. What I don't like are evangenical modernists who want to make everyone into an atheist cut out copy of themselves. It seems reasonable that there should be atleast a few traditional brahmins in this world who can carry the ancient tradition so as we learn more from science about our ancient past and modern understanding of the laws of nature, we can understand these ancient traditions looking at them from a truely modern understanding and not the "modern" (passe communist materialism that has already been proven temorary and wrong) perspective that so called "rationalist" (who still don't understand objective epistimolgy) atitude that the west left behind a hundred years ago and replaced with real rational thought. So let tradtional brahminism also exist. All kinds of traditions survive to this day, why not the most ancient tradition of all, brahminism?

So let all types of brahmins feel free to co-mingle on their common label even though we all choose to practice (or not practice) in our various ways according to our nature, understanding, or inclination.

 

[kashyap]

definition of our gathering --- it can even be as simple as a rotarian group to

Hi folks
Myabe i am missing some important point here.
Still I think I can think aloud here. This has been in my mind for a while, and then seeing ms.shanti's posting the idea is getting more concrete to write out.

If the purpose of this thread is to discuss and finally arrive at a conclusion as to who we are, then I would like to know why we need to do that.
Every human is an idividual. But he is also a social animal. Historically we have seen groups and clans getitng formed. Happening even now.. People say they are united by ideology, or beliefs or even hobbies.Modern day examples are like -- sai devotees, AOL followers, numerous sects in christinanity getting formed every month almost, rajneesh followers,shia, sunni, ahmediaya, DMK, PMK , etc etc.
You even have clubs like Rotary club, Lions club.

So if the purpose of this thread is to find out why we are here, then it is something. If the purpose of this thread is to tell the members what they need to do in future, then it is something else.If the purpose of the thread is to identify commonalities among us then it is yet another thing.

I am open to discussion on all these , but I think we need to also focus. I dont see anything wrong in the coming together of the group even if there are no commonalities before. For instance, a person in the group would be prone to doing sandhayvanhanam thrice a day (108 times each) and someone will not be doing it at all. Many are veg some take non-veg as well.
Still the gettng together is justified because we can broaden the definition and include folks. The one commonality i see among us is to stop oppression thro reservation in India.
Other commonality is belief in good things told in vedas and shastras. Another one is belief in doign fgood for the others and society through this forum.
And then going furhter, there is nothing wrong in our defining new principles and goals and objectives for the future.

So what are we going to do here in this thread?
Or is this thread meant to tell about what is prescribed and proscribed in the shastras?
(Even then we can see what is relevant and how it can be applied now. What are the consequences if it is followed or not etc).

LQ.... looks like I need to respond again to you.
Whatever u mentioned -- the 4 points are applicable to other communities too. Maybe not the low -protein part. Still even in non-veg communities many are so poor that they cant have high protein diet.
Also point to note is that any doctor(non-brahmin too) recommends a heart attack or diabetes patient to go for vegetarian diet to prolong his life.
So I dont quite get why you are saying this.
The problem is more due to the oil and ghee and sugar not the veg or no-veg. Even in veg food we have enough protein sources. If someone really wants protein from non-veg for a reason then I dont have anything to say (netiher positive nor negative on that ). It is each to his own.

The thing which I find worrisome is the negative streak in the posting and I see no objective at all. It keeps meandering here and there jumping around and not going anywhere.

Even if we identify some deficiencies in us, the plan should be always going foward -- what to do in future , how to become better -- not just for this group of people, but for the society, nation and world.
Obviously we cant change everything in a jiffy, let us start with this group and people who come in contact with this group first.. and take it from there.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Agreed. Idea is to develop future course of action. Lets' all be receptive to new ideas.

 

[kashyap]

thanks LQ -- that was great

LQ

just after posting, I thought perhaps I was a bit harsh. My intention was not that. We are after all humans and the attitudes are in a flux many times. But let us focus and make the attitude also be fixed and positive.
Thanks for taking it in a wonderfu way.


regards
kashyap

 

[murali]

LQ and mrifan sir,
i agree.
i was recording something which i feel is important.

kashyap ji,
you have made a valid point on the making of communities.

 

[kashyap]

pl dont call me ji

Folks pl call me kashyap .

actually I am quite younger to be called as a ji by most of the esteemed folks here. not saying that I am a teenager , but it looks like some people here have spent more time abroad than my lifetime so far and hence I feel unconfortable being called as ji...esp in the august presence of KRS and pappan, mami and silverfox and perhaps all the rest.
I am writing this fact also to let you know a calibration point for my views and postings.
Since I did not like using the word sir , I switched to ji to address a few, when it became clear from their words they are my seniors.
If you do not want to be addressed by ji then do let me know.

 

[lotus_quartz]

Came across a very good site which gives english versions of all hindu sacred texts and other religious writings, absolutely free.

Those who wish to enrich their knowledge of hinduism may refer to the following address:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm