Who is Brahmanan

[DURGADASAN]

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If so, how can pandavas and gauravas were considered as Kshatriyas??? Sage vyasa was the father of Dhrudharashtra, pandu and vidhura (Though mothers differ). So, I agree with Raghy. The casteism shown in mahabharatha is very weird. Also, many husbands and wives live together just for name sake and their offsprings were due to some other. Macchagandhi(a) Sathyavadhi gave birth to vyasa through parasara and then married santhanu. This santhanu married ganga as first wife and then Sathyavadhi. Ambika, amba and ambalika were married to vichitraveerya but got their child from vyasa. Kundhi and matri married pandu and got their children from devas. (Nowhere smart reasons like "Payasam" or by eye-sight have been said in this whole epic I think).

So, if consider Varna of anyone in the whole Mahabharatha, it will be in vain only...

Pranams

 

[Brahma Rishi]

Sri Pvraman :-

"For all other ex-varna (apart from Brahmana), they have a clear target to hate, ie brahmana. But for the present brahmin, we dont know whom to hate, we must hate only our ancestors who did not educate properly the other varnas so much so that they have left us with so much hatred. We are stunned, we don't know why it is happening to us. Fortunately, we convince ourselves saying that its all Murpiravi karma."

Sir,

I concur with you about the plight of caste brahmin today. Unfortunately, in my opinion, this misery may increase more. When one community can be bullied and discriminted legally, I do not see an end to it. All the caste brahmins will be systematically crushed. It has already happened in most villages. Unless caste brahmins mainly the youth find a way to get out of this rut, it may never abate. Personally I never kiss the feet of someone who discriminate me. I struggled while I was in India. But, I read the writing on the wall. I never deluded myself in any illusions of getting a fair deal in my life.

Sri Pvraman said:-

"And we have a greater responsibility as a Brahmin, to have a Ara Vazhi and guide others along with us."

No sir. I humbly beg to differ with you. If you mean caste brahmins by the word 'We', then we have no responsibility to guide anybody. In today's condition, in my opinion, the caste brahmins have the responsibility to survive. Sir, we do not have any superiority over others.

The present plight of the Brahmins was brought upon Brahmins by their own selves. It is the Superiority Complex and Arrogance, based on no sensible logic or reasoning, which has brought this state of affairs on themselves. Brahmins are solely responsible for this, their excellence notwithstanding. The so-called brahmins must wake up to the reality. Brahmins cannot afford to continue in their illusionary self-esteem. So-called brahmins must introspect and break out of self consciousness, out of a conditioned and programmed mindset and mentality. No offense meant. I was born in a Brahmin household too, an orthodox one in that.

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Brahma Rishi,

The present plight of the Brahmins was brought upon Brahmins by their own selves. It is the Superiority Complex and Arrogance, based on no sensible logic or reasoning, which has brought this state of affairs on themselves. Brahmins are solely responsible for this, their excellence notwithstanding. The so-called brahmins must wake up to the reality. Brahmins cannot afford to continue in their illusionary self-esteem. So-called brahmins must introspect and break out of self consciousness, out of a conditioned and programmed mindset and mentality. No offense meant. I was born in a Brahmin household too, an orthodox one in that.

What type of conditioned programmed mindset. I am a village person, and some of my B friends till date don't know how to do sandhya vandanam. We were not upper class too. Yet, we realized the discrimination after the 12th standard. We did not mind. We took our further studies & technical courses whatever available. We have lot of NB friends We are still friends and great friends at that, who could visit our home, and we could visit their home as a family friends. They got into good position. We too got into a respectable position. All are settled well. In my office, with my clients, i am the only B caste person. But no offense. Nobody, anytime, hurt me. In our village we were about 10 or so B boys, who were all down to earth. When we have a gathering there are B who sports all the symbol and many of them dont sport the symbols, yet, nobody abused us and we never abused anybody by caste.

I never saw any NB talking bad about B friends. They still have good opinion on us. Very few DK people talk bad about us. Only their parents have reservation about us (they are 60 years old now- which may be clue). Even if you shed all (some of my known B friends dont even sport punool - they are too NB than a actual NB person) symbols, dialect and loose your identity, the DK people still curse you. So, how do you think you can equalize and become to their level to become socially EQUAL?. Do you believe in our model of Brahmin?



Pranams..

PVR

 

[RVR]

Dear Sri PV Raman,

Let us concentrate on the development of our community and probably ignore all other things. There is no point in talking about others attitude towards us since it is not going to change for obvious reason.

Personally I am recollecting my experience when Sri Jayendra Saraswathi swamigal was arrested. My friends who doesn't normally exhibit anti-brahmin stand were trying to convince me that HH Swamigal has committed the crime. Today when the actual trial is going on in the court, no body opens their mouth stating that what police has fabricated is totally false.

We are living in a place where we are being targeted at every possible opportunity. Let us not talk about them and concentrate on our community development.

All the best

 

[Nara]

Hello Raghy, Greetings!

...basically wonders how this ‘garbage’ (kasmalam) came into you? Krishna condemns such thoughts as ‘garbage’. Krishna preached Gita after this;

How can you tell that Krishna's condemnation was a blanket one covering everything Arjuna said? Krishna was only condemning his decision to not fight. The kasmalam is simply Arjuna's despondency to fight, not the words he spoke. In fact Krishna says you speak the words of wise men (Ch 2 .11). So, Krishna considers Arjuna's words as wise, but condemns only his action of refusing to fight.

Papa yOnaya – one who passed through a sinful Yoni. In other words, one who was born through illicit relationship, born to a prostitute etc. Come to think of it, mother’s less than agreeable behaviour should not affect the child though.

It looks like you have your own interpretation and you are trying to come up with an argument to make it fit with the text. But that is putting the cart before the horse.

Further, you have recognized the problem with your interpretation yourself. First of all, I do not agree with a blanket condemnation of all prostitutes. It is the men who take advantage of women in this way who are to be condemned. In any case, as you rightly observe, why must the child bear this tag?

When it comes to interpretations, there is unanimity among the three mainstream commentators, namely, Shankara, Ramanuja, and Madhwa. They all say this is about birth.

That slokam did not isolate any such a person for discriminations or for harsh treatment.

Agreed! But this is about whether BG says Varna is birth based, not about discrimination. That is a different topic. We can talk about that elsewhere, may be.

Cheers!

 

[StudentofVihe]

Q) What makes one a Brahmin – birth, study, or wisdom? Ans: Neither birth nor study nor wisdom. It is character alone that makes him a Brahmin (Yudhishtira elder brother of Pandavas - answers to Yaksha in Mahabharata)

 

[Brahma Rishi]

Dear Sri Brahma Rishi,



What type of conditioned programmed mindset. I am a village person, and some of my B friends till date don't know how to do sandhya vandanam. We were not upper class too. Yet, we realized the discrimination after the 12th standard. We did not mind. We took our further studies & technical courses whatever available. We have lot of NB friends We are still friends and great friends at that, who could visit our home, and we could visit their home as a family friends. They got into good position. We too got into a respectable position. All are settled well. In my office, with my clients, i am the only B caste person. But no offense. Nobody, anytime, hurt me. In our village we were about 10 or so B boys, who were all down to earth. When we have a gathering there are B who sports all the symbol and many of them dont sport the symbols, yet, nobody abused us and we never abused anybody by caste.

I never saw any NB talking bad about B friends. They still have good opinion on us. Very few DK people talk bad about us. Only their parents have reservation about us (they are 60 years old now- which may be clue). Even if you shed all (some of my known B friends dont even sport punool - they are too NB than a actual NB person) symbols, dialect and loose your identity, the DK people still curse you. So, how do you think you can equalize and become to their level to become socially EQUAL?. Do you believe in our model of Brahmin?



Pranams..

PVR

Dear PVRaman,
Thanks for your response. It is good to note that you mingle with people of all groups indiscriminately. I appreciate your broadmindedness. It is heartening to note that you and your friends of different social groups mutually visit each other's houses, and that too as family friends. It is good to learn that there were n caste discriminations among you, for that matter there were no discriminations of any kind. I am very happy to learn that you all are in good position, in respectable and noble professions and all are settled well. It is good to note that no one hurt or abused anyone by caste. This is a sign that we are progressing in civilization.
In the midst of such a set up sporting symbols fade into insignificance. It should not cause any sensation at all. In many so called brahmin families, the boys don't perform sandhyavandhan. Many so-called brahmin guys don't wear the sacred (or so it is considered) thread at all in spite of brahmopadesam performed on them. I wonder in the generations to come if the so-called brahmins will ever perform brahmopadesam at all. Especially since brahmin boys are marrying women from so-called other castes and their offsprings are not considered brahmins. Even otherwise, in many so-called brahmin families they don't bother to honor traditions, rituals etc.
As regards the parents of DK people having reservations, you need to understand that they lived in such times when they were oppressed by brahmins and hence brahmin hatred was fuelled. You may please enlighten them and educate them, dispel all darkness in them and dispel the prejudices in them. Please ignore the criticisms hurled by the so called DK. They claim themselves to be rational. But it is not rational to perceive someone as belonging to some people group and concentrate their assault on that group. It is hypocrisy. That is what the DKs are. They are hypocrites. They have some other sinister agenda. They are adopting brahmin hatred as a means to desperately achieve their goals. In the process they are deceiving and fooling the gullible public, using sensational rhetoric, eloquence and cliches.
In such a scenario you need to perceive everyone as human beings like you are. Everyone feels hungry and hence need food. Everyone is sensitive to weather and hence need clothing. Everyone needs shelter and hence needs a house. These three basic needs are common across all people groups in the entire world, cutting across religions, color, ethnicity, race etc.
What sounds paradoxical to me about you is, while you are so broadminded in practice, you use such terms as B and NB to identify yourselves and others respectively. You need to introspect and ask yourselves what your true identity is. I think you need to change your perception. As long as you apply the term Brahmin to identify yourself, there will exist an invisible, undiscernible gulf between you and others.
You also need to realize that intelligence and excellence is not a property and belonging of brahmins. These are individual attributes and traits. Although certain elements are in the DNA and passed on through the genes, you cannot generalize and conclude that certain qualities are genetic. Caste identities are an anachronism and in future they will cease to exist. The globe is becoming a village. No man is an island. Brahmins are no exception.
Can I be more clearer?
Regards,
Brahma Rishi

 

[happyhindu]

but i feel " the varna being a birth right " practice has been there even in Dwapara Yuga.
Remember the episode after the Mahabharat war where Yudhisthira did not want to preform funeral rites for the slain Karna when Kunti asks him to do so.
Yudhishtira says "why should i do for a Sutaputra"(by product of a Kshatriya father and Brahmana mother)
only after Kunti reveals the truth of Karna, Yudhistira preforms the funeral.
If caste was practised based by Gunas alone and not by birth right then why was Karna never considered a kshatriya even though crowned king of Anga by Duryodhana.
but the irony is both Pandu and Dhrtarashtra were considered Kshatriyas even though fathered by sage Vysa( a Brahmana).
shouldnt the Kauravas be considered Brahmanas by birth.
i dont know about the Pandavas which Varna they come under since they were fathered by Devas and Varna does not apply to Devas

weird isnt it

Probs with the mahabharat:

1) Dating of mahabharat is quite controversial.

2) Itihaasas as written varied by author and region (eg: differences b/w kamba ramayana and valmiki ramayana).

3) We don't know if the mahabharat we have in sanskrit currently is exactly the one written by Vyasa. Obviously the original kept getting copied on to new palm leaves as the leaves wore off. Our indian writers are generally very imaginative

4) No one knows if interpolations did or did not take place - there are arguments both ways.

5) Mahabharat supposedly took place before the Atharvaveda was compiled. So the idea that varna dharma was present in 'vedic time' does have a basis. However, the concept of it, and as it was applied socially, seems to have varied from kingdom to kingdom.

6) Kunti was Vasudeva's sister and Krishna's atthai. Kunti's son Arjuna married Vasudeva's daughter Subhadra (Krishna's sister). Meaning, Arjuna married his mother's brother's daughter. Though manusmrithi was written ages later, it is possible the pandavas were from the cultures were such unions were permitted.

7) Reg various births, the pandavas were born of diff fathers (devas, or possibly kings of the east). Satyavati was the daughter of the chieftain of fishermen. Arjuna, born from Indra, was dark skinned with curly hair (Krishna too was dark with curly hair) (no idea what this 'aryan looks' is all about?). The mahabharat is loaded with all sorts of illegitimate births. Yet it talks of varnas.....

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,

i would not want to call the births in the Mahabharat illegitimate because the Pandavas were divine in origin.

Invoking the Devas done by Madri and Kunti need not have been sexual in origin.

Just like in the case of cloning, sexual union does not take place yet life is created.

All you need is the DNA of a cell,implanted into an Ovum, jump started and a "seat" most condusive for cellular development is created inviting a soul with the compatible Karmic Genetic pattern and celullar division takes place--embryogenesis---birth takes place.

Divinity can work in many ways.

Their birth was legitimate because consent was given by Pandu.

I was only talking about Varnas nothing more.

It would make me a very unhappy hindu to consider them illegitimate.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Renuka,

Generally i find it hard to accept that a birth can happen without sexual union...esp if there is no such reference to it in the texts..
It has also been claimed that the 100 kauravas were clones of one another. No one knows if it is true. If substantial evidence of such a procedural aspect is refered to in any of the old texts, we might infer that such a possibility cud have existed then. But as of now, it is impossible to say.

Regards.

 

[renuka]

Dear Happy Hindu,

Text could have been written for the understanding of the common man. Even today if I tell a lesser informed person about cloning and partenogenesis he/she would certainly say "WHAT! I Dont Understand a word you are saying"

Arent all our Avatars eg Parashuraama, Raama, Krishna immaculate conceptions?
Even Jesus was an immaculate conception.
Draupadi and her brother came out from fire. No biological father or mother.
Lord Kartikeya was born from Lord Shiva without the need of Parvathi.
Lord Ganesha was produced by Parvathi herself without the need for Shiva.

You know the process of cloning does not even need males.
If there we no males, babies can be still produced by cloning but all would be females only. Because it would be the DNA of another female eg DNA from a ear cell or any other cell implanted into the ovum of another female.

Its a proven fact that you do not need physical sexual union for procreation.

Procreation can take place with non physical union.

You only need the "Purusha Factor" and the "Prakriti Factor" to procreate.

In Cloning the implanted DNA plays the "Purusha Factor" (the origin of the DNA used need not be from a male, that is why i have used the terminology "Factor" here) and the Ovum plays the "Prakriti Factor".

In Cloning the Ovum does not provide any DNA, it only plays the role of the nourisher before the placenta comes into picture and the uterus of the female used in cloning is just a surrogate and not the biological mother at all.


So i guess cloning could have taken place long long ago even better as Divine powers were freely available then.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Renuka,

Human cloning is not a simple procedure. We are talking of times when people were almost like tribes or tribe-like clans or groups, very very far from the present day caste-hood.

There are no sanskrit equivalents for plasmids, restriction enzymes, dna, incubators, etc..If there are such terms in Sanskrit, please do let me know of them. Or if they were alluding to a different sort of procedure, i wud glad for the references of the texts.

Dunno if we can connect present day discoveries with stories from the past and claim that they existed then.

If there are no sanskrit texts that explain the procedure or atleast touch upon the the subject using any (other) term(s), it is not possible to believe it existed at that time.

Dunno if even the concept of cleanliness or aseptic conditions existed then as it does now.

Am sorry but going by scientific basis alone, the concept of immaculate conception has no validity.

Regards.

 

[RVR]

I think the following article of Dr.A.V.Srinivasan answers lot of questions regarding who is a brahmin.

Dr. A. V. Srinivasan: Who is a Brahmin?

All the best

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Brahma Rishi,

Dear PVRaman,


What sounds paradoxical to me about you is, while you are so broadminded in practice, you use such terms as B and NB to identify yourselves and others respectively. You need to introspect and ask yourselves what your true identity is. I think you need to change your perception. As long as you apply the term Brahmin to identify yourself, there will exist an invisible, undiscernible gulf between you and others.
You also need to realize that intelligence and excellence is not a property and belonging of brahmins. These are individual attributes and traits. Although certain elements are in the DNA and passed on through the genes, you cannot generalize and conclude that certain qualities are genetic. Caste identities are an anachronism and in future they will cease to exist. The globe is becoming a village. No man is an island. Brahmins are no exception.
Can I be more clearer?
Regards,
Brahma Rishi

I am little confused about the reply. Among our friends circle you can say I am in the lower half as for as intelligence is concerned, some of my NB friends are well above me. I have nothing to boast or feel arrogant about, because we are from lower middle class family with avg intelligence at a time struggling to come-up in life. In 1980s my NB friends mother often scold my NB friends for moving with us (don t play with பார்ப்பான் பசங்க.). The same mummies changed during 1990s, after all are settled and welcomed with smile and trusted us.(not all of us though )

In our house we did not have anytime, reservation in admitting them. (I am talking about 1980s). Not only in my house, I have seen many of B friends house for that matter. I am narrating a practical example. You can read many things in that. They are not having any problems with us being brahmins or following rituals. If i say, i am not a brahmin anymore to them, asking them not to be x,y,z... they just may laugh it off. They are deep into their community (சங்கங்கள்) for their own safety. (Please tell me in TN any Jathi without sangams!)

So, why people want to erase all the identities and dissolve when you have something better to give to the world. Earlier it was guarded and the knowledge was not passed to even some of the brahmins. Now we can learn and propagate to all. It can be strengthened more. People will like that. You need to adjust little here and there.

As for as changing oneS identity, I remember when Indians in abroad, after living for 15 years and thinking and behaving like other country person, they will be Indians only and even if they live for 1000 years, they will be indian origin only.

In TN, It will be fair if everybody looses their identity and say we are tamilians or Indians which is not going to happen in the visible future.

The need for the hour is, instead of remaining in isolation we need to do lot of social work to have our image changed (i dont have any issue on that). Thats what i am trying to put forward right from the day one here. If we want to be treated as a inseparable partner in the society we do things which will command respect automatically. Our concern, if at all, should be unity and help the needy, help each other, and help the society where the real broad mindedness matters.
(sorry my thinkpadS quote key is not working suddenly:tea
Please comment

Thanks
PVR

 

[pvraman]

Dear Sri Raghi

Sri Pvraman said:-

Sir,

'Aravaazhi' is aram + aazhi. 'an ocaen of aram'. The one who has aram like an ocean; one who is perfect; all the arams come from him..... The one is the God Almighty. Valluvar talks about 'saranagathy' in this kural. He reckons that only by joining the feet of the God Almighty one can swim the piravaazhi ( Piravi + aazhi = ocean of birth; piravi perunkadal).

others.

"அறவாழி அந்தணன் தாள்சேர்ந்தார்க் கல்லால்
பிறவாழி நீத்தல் அரிது"

இத் திருக்குறளில் கூறப்பட்ட அறவாழி அந்தணன் என்பவர் யாவர்?. அவர்
எந்தக் கடவுள் என்பதை ஆராய்வோம்.
உரையாசிரியர் பரிமேலழகர், அறவாழி என்பதற்கு அறக்கடவுள் என்று பொருள்
கூறினார். பிறகு மற்றொரு பொருளையும் குறிக்கிறார். அது: அறவாழி
என்பதனைத் தரும "சக்கரமாக்கி அதனுடைய அந்தணன் என்று உரைப்பாருமுளர்"
என்பது. அறக் கடலாகிய அந்தணன் என்று பொருள் கொள்வதை விட, தருமச்
சக்கரத்தை உடைய அந்தணன் என்று பொருள் கொள்வது சிறப்புடையதாகத்
தோன்றுகிறது. நூல்களிலே ஜைனருடைய அருகக் கடவுள்(பெளத்தருடைய புத்தப்
பெருமானும் கூட) அறவாழியை உடையவர் என்று கூறப்படுகிறார். ஆகவே,
அறவாழி அந்தணன் என்று குறிக்கப்பட்டவர் ஜைனருடைய அருகக் கடவுள் எனக்
கொள்ளத்தகும்.

”ஆழிப்படையையுடைய திருமால் அறவாழி அந்தணன் அல்லரோ எனின், அல்லர்.
அவர் மறவாழியை யுடையவராகலின் அறவாழி அந்தணன் ஆகார். என்னை?
திருமாலின் திருத்தொண்டர்களான ஆழ்வார்கள் எல்லோரும், அவரை அறவழி
அந்தணன் என்று கூறாமல் மறவாழிப் படையான் என்றே கூறியுள்ளனர்.
"அடலாழி ஏந்தி அசுரர் வன்குலம் வேர் மறுங்கறுத்தாய்" என்றும்,
"அமர்கொள் ஆழி" என்றும்
"காய்சின ஆழி" என்றும்
"கொலை ஆழி" என்றும்
"கூர் ஆழி" என்றும்
"கனலாழிப் படையுடையவன்" என்றும்
"பேராழி கொண்ட பிரான்" என்றும்,
"ஊன் திகழ் நேமி" என்றும்,
"ஈர்க்கின்ற சக்கரத் தெம்மான்" என்றும் திருமாலின் ஆழி(சக்கரம்)
மறவாழி என்றே ஆழ்வார்கள் கூறியிருப்பதை அவர்கள் பாடல்களிலே நெடுகக்
கானலாம். ஆகவே, அறவாழி அந்தணன் என்னும் பெயர் திருமாலுக்கும்
பொருந்தாது. ”
http://www.treasurehouseofagathiyar.net/27800/27809.htm

Idhu eppadi irukku?

Can we take as the அந்தணன் is not a Brahmana?

Regards

PVR

 

[pbkhema]

I have been reading the Maitrayeni Samhita for the last few days and a passage from the same which I am giving below puts the picture very clearly
'Why do you enquire about the father or the motherof a Brahmin?
When you find knowledge in someonethat is his father and grandfather"
So what is expected to be a Brahmin is not birth but knowledge (of the Vedas)

 

[pvraman]

Sri Raghy,

Another interpretation for Andhanar.

அந்தணர் என்ற சொல் அக்காலத்தில் (குறள் எழுந்தக் காலக்கட்டத்தில்) நிச்சயம் வைதீக பிராமணர்களைக் குறித்திருக்காது என்பது நிதர்சனம். அக்கால வைதிகர்கள் வேத யாகங்களில் மிருகங்களை பலியிட்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.(பார்க்க: நீலகேசி) இதனால் அந்தணன் என்ற சொல் அவர்களைக் குறிக்கவில்லை என்பது பெறப்படுகிறது


http://banukumar_r.blogspot.com/2008/02/blog-post_16.html
Regards

 

[RVR]

Sri Raghy,

Another interpretation for Andhanar.

அந்தணர் என்ற சொல் அக்காலத்தில் (குறள் எழுந்தக் காலக்கட்டத்தில்) நிச்சயம் வைதீக பிராமணர்களைக் குறித்திருக்காது என்பது நிதர்சனம். அக்கால வைதிகர்கள் வேத யாகங்களில் மிருகங்களை பலியிட்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.(பார்க்க: நீலகேசி) இதனால் அந்தணன் என்ற சொல் அவர்களைக் குறிக்கவில்லை என்பது பெறப்படுகிறது


??ி?்?் ????் !: ???ா?ி ??்???்
Regards

Sri P V Raman,

Jainism accepts only three varnas Kshatria, Vysya and Sudra and doesn't accept brahmin varna at all. Hence interpretation from Jain websites or literature may not be considered as correct.

Bhagavath Geetha recognises four varnas including Brahmin Varna. Since we all believe the words of Lord Krishna, we have to get interpretations from Hindu literature only.

All the best

 

[pbkhema]

I am relying on my memory of what all I have read in the past souple of years
During the period when the Vedas (mainly Rg) came inro being the vedic people were in a nomadic stage and the varnasramam had not come into existence.(1500-2000 BCE) In the later period >1500 BCE the varnasramam came into existence and during that time animal sacrifice was there.The Brahmins as priests claimed a primary right to perform sacrifices and the first share of the sacrificail offrings went to the Btahmins.
>1000 BCE the Brahmins losy out to the Kshatriyas and in turn substituted rice and barely made in the dorm of animals to the sacrifice

 

[pbkhema]

On this subject I am extracting a passage from Chandogya Upanishad
Please pardon my typing
"Once upon a time Satyakama Jabala asked his mother Jabala ' I want to live the life a vedic student.What is the line of my anscestors gitra"She replied 'I do not know the line of your male anscestorsWhen I was young I went around a lot as I was working and I got you.My name is Jabala and your name is Satyakama.So why don't you say you are Styakama Jabala"
Satyakama went to Gautama and asked to study with him.He was asked about his line of male ansecstors and he repeated what his mother had told him
Gautama replied that'No one whi was not a brahmin would be able to say that.You have not deviated fromthe truth and I will intiate you"
That was the olden times

 

[renuka]

dear happy Hindu,
I do have some very brief text on Vedic scientific practices.
The books is not with me at present and i will provide info once available.

 

[happyhindu]

thank you renuka. much appreciated.

 

[Raghy]

Sri Pvraman quoted:-

"அறவாழி அந்தணன் தாள்சேர்ந்தார்க் கல்லால்
பிறவாழி நீத்தல் அரிது"

இத் திருக்குறளில் கூறப்பட்ட அறவாழி அந்தணன் என்பவர் யாவர்?. அவர்
எந்தக் கடவுள் என்பதை ஆராய்வோம்.
உரையாசிரியர் பரிமேலழகர், அறவாழி என்பதற்கு அறக்கடவுள் என்று பொருள்
கூறினார். பிறகு மற்றொரு பொருளையும் குறிக்கிறார். அது: அறவாழி
என்பதனைத் தரும "சக்கரமாக்கி அதனுடைய அந்தணன் என்று உரைப்பாருமுளர்"
என்பது. அறக் கடலாகிய அந்தணன் என்று பொருள் கொள்வதை விட, தருமச்
சக்கரத்தை உடைய அந்தணன் என்று பொருள் கொள்வது சிறப்புடையதாகத்
தோன்றுகிறது. நூல்களிலே ஜைனருடைய அருகக் கடவுள்(பெளத்தருடைய புத்தப்
பெருமானும் கூட) அறவாழியை உடையவர் என்று கூறப்படுகிறார். ஆகவே,
அறவாழி அந்தணன் என்று குறிக்கப்பட்டவர் ஜைனருடைய அருகக் கடவுள் எனக்
கொள்ளத்தகும்.

Idhu eppadi irukku?

Sri Pvraman,

Thanks for posting this interesting information. When I checked the link, I am compelled to believe that the author is trying to put a name to ‘araaazhi andhanan’. But, Valluvar did not mention God by any name. May be, he did not like to compartmentalise ‘kadavul vazhthu’ ( praise of God). I favoured araazhi as ocean + aram (to denote the vast quantity, perhaps) because it rhymes with ‘piraazhi’ in sound and meaning too (Piravi + ocean). (But, then again, we refer cycle of birth in a circular fashion too!). ‘Somehow it does not seem too impressive in the part of the author to adopt elimination tactics to arrive his goal.

Can we take as the அந்தணன் is not a Brahmana?

The clearest meaning for the term ‘andhanan’ was explained by Sri Nara in post #7. This is the best I have come across so far. Here it is,

“The term அந்தணர் is really a beautiful word. I don't believe there is an equivalent word in either English or Samskritham.

The meaning of the word அந்தணர் is embedded into this Kural itself. அந்தணர் = அம் + தண்மை + யார். அம் refers to good, nice, pure, தண்மை = like water, cool and soothing. So, அந்தணர் simply means one whose natural outlook or temperament towards all life forms is like pure, cool, soothing water.

Now, consider the placement of this Kural. It is the last Kural under the chapter நீத்தார் பெருமை, i.e. one who has renounced all things worldly and material. Therefore, as you rightly say, it is extremely unlikely that Thiruvalluvar had Brahmins in mind for அந்தணர் in this Kural.”

As Sri Nara explained, the term ‘andhanan’ carry a bit more emphasis on mercy and readily helping mentality. For example, consider, I come across a vulnerable person being bullied by thugs; when I feel sympathy and empathy for the vulnerable person and decide to help the person, I display brahmana quality; in that process, if I beat the living daylight out of the thugs or the vice versa, then I displayed kshtriya varna. This is a simple example that may not pose any confusion. However, when a decision has to be taken to risk the lives of few to save a larger number of lives, then the ‘andhana’ quality would be tested. ‘evvuyirkkum senthanmai poondu ozhugalan’ condition may not be fulfilled. On the other hand, even after taking such a decision, ‘brahma’ quality may not be affected.

So, in my humble opinion, ‘andhanan’ may not be taken as ‘brahmana’.

 

[Brahma Rishi]

Dear PVR,

Sangams are formed only with selfish motives and selfish gains. In the long run they will not benefit any individual or group. We have witnessed sangams forming and disintegrating.

All I mean to say is there is no point trying to segregate ourselves into a group. It only promotes division and sects. Our minds have been conditioned and programmed to think that we belong to some group, caste, religion, nationality, ethnicity, race etc. They are illusory and false identities. As long as we are conscious of our false identities, we cannot progress as a human race. It is in our hands to bring to reality in the near future that every one thinks he is an Indian first and an Indian last. Going beyond the confines of national boundaries which is man made and artificial, everyone is a human being born in this earth. When all the countries unite as one nation, there won't be war, there will be no need for an army, for passports and visas.

 

[Nara]

Satyakama went to Gautama and asked to study with him.He was asked about his line of male ansecstors and he repeated what his mother had told him

Gautama replied that'No one whi was not a brahmin would be able to say that.You have not deviated fromthe truth and I will intiate you"

That was the olden times

While the boy was truthful, an admirable quality, what did Gauthama infer from that? He concluded that the boy must be brahmana by birth, for only a brahmana by birth will speak the truth. Why else would he have enquired about the boy's male ancestors in the first place?

The moral of the story seems to be that the reason the boy spoke the ugly truth is because he was a brahmana by birth. If he was of low birth he would have concealed the truth.

This story, IMHO, in the scale of offensiveness, is up there with the worst of them.

Cheers!