Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

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Why I Am Not a Christian by the British philosopher Bertrand Russell was hailed by The Independent as "devastating in its use of cold logic," and listed in the New York Public Library's list of the most influential books of the 20th Century.

The Western world ( Christian ) refused for long to even recognize that Philosophy could ever be part of a religion. Buy any book on Philosophy in English published in the West till about a decade back. You will never find a mention of Hindu Philosophy. Will Durand in his famous book "The story of Philosophy" does not even recognize any of the so called eastern Philosophies.

This was our perennial grouse when we studied Philosophy in college.

Now the Christians accept (not all of them, not even a majority) that Philosophy could be a part of a religion.

It is like the case with Meditation. After decades of calling the practice all sort of names, now they have come out with Christian Meditation.

But that does not change the position that you can not talk of Christianity and Philosophy in the same breadth.

This is not an attack on Christianity. But a mere statement of facts.

 

[sapr333]

Why I Am Not a Christian by the British philosopher Bertrand Russell was hailed by The Independent as "devastating in its use of cold logic," and listed in the New York Public Library's list of the most influential books of the 20th Century.

The Western world ( Christian ) refused for long to even recognize that Philosophy could ever be part of a religion. Buy any book on Philosophy in English published in the West till about a decade back. You will never find a mention of Hindu Philosophy. Will Durand in his famous book "The story of Philosophy" does not even recognize any of the so called eastern Philosophies.
This is not an attack on Christianity. But a mere statement of facts.

Betrand russel /Nietsche are denitely admirable philosphers in their way, and they were on the job of Proving the Non-existence of God. But they were equally contested by subsequent aetheist philosophers. Thhere is a general tendency that the aethist philosphers work on Christianity, because Christianity is pretty coherent/consistent in their logic/theology/scriptures. Majority of the philosophers have not touched hinduism(though not Buddhism), for the simple reason, Hinduism is complex, with mulitude doctrines which contradict each other, and its diffitcult to debate/evaluate with a particular stand. For eg, even about Varna, we have contradictory outputs when comparing with Veda/Upanishads/Gita.. Thats one reason, why modern thinkers have not used hinduism to prove their points against non-existence of God.

Once again, the greatest philsophers like St.Augustine/St.Anselsm/St.Thomas Aquinos, Blaise Pascal/Lebiniz which are used as bench mark by Betrand/Nietsche were all Christians.. Few are monks too. Thomas Aquinos created his proof for the existence of God, based on Platonic views.

I can corelate this to kancha..He says, Ask any scholar about Varna, he will quote one line from Veda to prove the point. And by the time you counter him, he will present another line from Upanishad.. And this goes on endless..And similarly, some prove the point in the same way, that Varna doesnt exist, ranting and switching to confusing complex ideologies..

Kancha was practical in his point.. Yes, due to its complexity, hinduism is yet to come clear with the 'Varna doctrine'..Even now we can feel that..ie, Sankaracharyas say something....You and I say something...etc ..etc.. Thats one reason, moden thinkers has not bench marked their arguments based on Hinduism, rather, they found comfort in attacking Christianity to prove their point of Non-Existence of God.

 

[sapr333]

Nacchinarkinian,

Forgottent to tell you this (2 weeks ago).. I enjoyed one of your article about 'Tamil Brahmins of Kerala, ie Trivandrum, kannyakumari.. Forgotten the title..

Wish you had narrated lot more about C.P.Ramasamy Iyer, the Dewan of Trivancore. His contribution to Tamilians are so much, and every one should remember that..There is a Municipal Park in nagercoil named after him, cos, his contribution towards Kannyakumari dt Tamils was so great..

I hv the highest regard for him.. See if you could compile an article on that.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

You can not find fault with a Philosophy for the actions of its so called followers. You do not attack Karl Marx for what Stalin did in Russia. Neither can you attribute the blame to Marx and Lenin for the action of our comrades in India. You do not blame John Stuart Mill for the failure of Reaganomics.

Then how can you blame Vedas/Sankaracharya for what its/his followers did a more than a thousand years later? In the case of Marx and Mill it is only a century or so. But here we are talking about thousands of years.

You may say that the followers swear by the Vedas. But then our comrades also swear by Marx and Lenin. The followers of Reaganomics swear by John Stuart Mill.

When the American economy collapsed recently, some people have been talking about the death of Capitalism. Most do not think so. Reaganomics was a particular application of Capitalism which failed.

We do not condemn the system for the failure of the administrators. We modify the system to suit our needs. Hinduism is changing and will change to meet the needs of all the Hindus irrespective of caste or creed.

Some people especially the younger generation are impatient. The impatience and frustration is understandable. But then you can not reform a society overnight.

 

[palindrome]

This post was not to me. But just some inputs from this end..

Betrand russel /Nietsche are denitely admirable philosphers in their way, and they were on the job of Proving the Non-existence of God. But they were equally contested by subsequent aetheist philosophers. Thhere is a general tendency that the aethist philosphers work on Christianity, because Christianity is pretty coherent/consistent in their logic/theology/scriptures.

This wud first need us to understand how the church was formed. Students from the middle east and traders along the silk route were common to india and indian universites such as taxila during christ's time. Christ was preaching in the middle-east what the hindus in the east were already following (you may wish to read Jesus Lived In India). He typically chose to go back to kashmir (sharada peeth) after his resurrection. Moreover what christ taught is not really unique either.

His resurrection is considered a so-called "miracle" in the middle east coz it had not happened in that part of the world before. But in india yogis have been dying and resurrecting themselves since ages before christ....its just one of the many sub-schools of yoga..and we do not consider healing, samadhi, the materializing of objects from nowhere, etc as miracles (plz read "autobiography of a yogi").

After christ's departure, his followers began spreading his teaching to others. In time, a group called the gnostics gained more popularity than other preachers, coz they taught the concept of trancendence and personal god. This is a very hindu concept, typical of hindu philosophies. Buddha on the other hand had rejected the presence of god and therefore one can say that christ essentially taught vedanta.

But the growing popularity of the gnostics was not seen in favorable light by other preachers. These non-gnostics persecuted the gnostics, established an organized unit called the church and over time decided what christianity should be. The gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John were chosen to be the bible. The dead sea scrolls and nag hammadi texts were rejected.

The gospel of judas was not only rejected but condemned by a so called saint named Irenaeus of lyons in his work "Adversus Haereses" around 180ad. Anything that cud teach the concept of salvation thru meditation (or any form of reflection on actions and thought) and any idea of a connection with god was strictly banned. Justinian I banned the concept of re-birth in christianity. In short, within 600 years of christ's death, whatever christianity represented was views of the church and not of christ. Christ was essentially a yogi. But the only way to salvation, according to the church was baptizment; and baptizement meant accepting christ as a saviour.

Texts were interpreted to suit the church. The famous liner "The only way to the father is thru me" was taught by the church as "the only way to god is acceptence of christ". The gnostics on the other hand were explaining things similar to the yogis and had been interpreting "me" for the super consciousness..and "the way" for the way of surrender and meditation upon the supreme...but following this method wud have made christ essentially a (predominantly advaitin) guru. The church however needed to elevate him to a higher status than a guru. And so practically every teaching, every philosohphy that has come to be in the western world had only limited choice all thru that time -- either say something that toes the doctrinal views of the church or be rejected or move out into a divergent thot group either within or outside the christian frame-work..

Therefore when you say Christianity is pretty coherent / consistent in their logic / theology / scriptures, you need to understand that its all about the business of being an organized business unit. There is no room for philosophies. Its about brand management. Its like you own a Louis Vuitton to be a part of the crowd or you don't. If you don't, then you can be purchased over to increase numbers so that the church has more numbers to flourish upon. Its like buying sick units over so that they can fed with some investment, turned around and then made money from.. However, over time very many denominations were formed due to internal strife and schisms and there are christian demoninations that stay away from any 'harvesting' or "soul purchasing power parity".

Majority of the philosophers have not touched hinduism(though not Buddhism), for the simple reason, Hinduism is complex, with mulitude doctrines which contradict each other, and its diffitcult to debate/evaluate with a particular stand. For eg, even about Varna, we have contradictory outputs when comparing with Veda/Upanishads/Gita.. Thats one reason, why modern thinkers have not used hinduism to prove their points against non-existence of God.

Hindusim is a conglomeration of many different schools of thought. Its a university offering diff subjects to people as they may choose to adhere or study. You can choose yoga or vedanta or mimansaka ritualism or anything. It wud take more than a life time to understand just one school like say the yoga school. I gave you the links to brahma sutra, please let me know how much of it have you been able to understand first, forget proving or disproving. I have been reading that one book since i was in my teens and still find something or the other new in it each time i read it. When the book itself keeps me so occupied with the ways of the mind where is the question of using anything from it to prove or disprove anything...this is another reason why so-called modern thinkers are not able to "use" hindusim to so-called prove non-existence or whatever...Plus western philosophers might find the cultural inclusivism of philosophies being accepted into the fold of religius practice rather different from their own cultural scene.

Yes each school has its own way of intepretation or set of teachings. Varna can mean different things to different schools. To a samavedin varna cud mean a "type" or type of letters. To a yoga student, varna wud usually mean 'consciousness'. The literal translation of varna can mean letter, paint, color, coat, class, description, complexion, syllables, etc...depends on whether one wants to use it as a verb or anything else (like varnAkuti means hut and varnAyati means explanation). Literal meaning may not work, interpretation can vary.

Another prob is that western ppl try to interpret the scriptures within the framework of their own understanding. Max muller is a classic example. He was doing comparative religion..in the earlier stages he is believed to have thot of aryans as a race but later reiterated and said that the blackest hindus represent an earlier stage of aryan speech....i suppose its really tuf for anyone to understand india...but its not our fault that we thrive with so much diversity

 

[palindrome]

contd..

Once again, the greatest philsophers like St.Augustine/St.Anselsm/St.Thomas Aquinos, Blaise Pascal/Lebiniz which are used as bench mark by Betrand/Nietsche were all Christians.. Few are monks too. Thomas Aquinos created his proof for the existence of God, based on Platonic views.

St.Augustine basically used some of neoplatonism teachings to explain the church's doctrinal views. It cud be considered as typical of the church wanting to fit into the mould of a philosophy. Anselm and Thomas Aquinos were again theologians and monks (the whole idea of monasticism is again a rather borrowed upanishadic concept, said to have travelled from india to greece just as it travelled to china). Long before Aquinos, rishis of the rig had already created proof of existence of god as well as the non-existence of god. Both schools exist today, its upto an individual's leanings to choose what he wishes to pick.

Pascal attacked jesuist casuistry..his wager is very similar to the vedic concept of god as infinity..i remember having read similar lines that god has neither parts or limits in quite a few places in the rig...give me time, i will dig out the verses that wud be close to reflecting pascal's concept of "If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is"

No offence meant. But most part of christianity is just old wine in a new bottle..

I can corelate this to kancha..He says, Ask any scholar about Varna, he will quote one line from Veda to prove the point. And by the time you counter him, he will present another line from Upanishad.. And this goes on endless..And similarly, some prove the point in the same way, that Varna doesnt exist, ranting and switching to confusing complex ideologies..

Kancha was practical in his point.. Yes, due to its complexity, hinduism is yet to come clear with the 'Varna doctrine'..Even now we can feel that..ie, Sankaracharyas say something....You and I say something...etc ..etc.. Thats one reason, moden thinkers has not bench marked their arguments based on Hinduism, rather, they found comfort in attacking Christianity to prove their point of Non-Existence of God.

Kancha knows neither any school of hindusim, nor an iota of vedas, nor sanskrit, nor any native philosophies. His writings are based on missionary-fed ideas and its like having to suffer a fool to read thru a single interview of his. All that the so-called christian thinkers and islamic propagandists do is to foolishly compare grapes and pebbles in the name of comparative religion; and again with a preexisting agenda.

Already explained abt varna in the post above. If something is complex and is confusing to a person, is it the fault of the scripture / its author ? if kancha cannot understand the depth or diversity of a philosophical teaching or any concept, does it not mean he does not have the ability to understand it?

There is a saying "naach na jaane aangan tayda"..meaning one does not know to dance but will blame that the floor is uneven so he cud not dance. Kancha is similar, he scratches the surface, cannot understand it, then blames the floor. And what little he understands, he abuses it for his propagandist ideas..He is typical of those people who cannot use their mind, but need a fixed unchanging single method to be spoon fed to them like a baptisment or sunnat to follow. Its high time kancha stopped blaming the scriptures for his own short comings.

 

[palindrome]

Instead, one should go through all the possible religious scriptures in the world, and explore answers for 'Life After Death".. Various religions gives different answers. Lets critically examine all, use the power of reasoning/freewill given by God, and choose the right one.

thankyou sir...but am rather occupied with the hindu ones since quite some years now...i did try the bible and quran before...they cud not hold me into them..lost intrest...but i have yet to try jain ones..will do so after the hindu ones..

and btw, how wud one know if the power of reasoning / free will is given by god?

suppose i may want to think that the power of reasoning as intelligence is given by genes and it can be manipulated by man: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/435816.stm So is free will given by god or man ?

 

[sapr333]

You can not find fault with a Philosophy for the actions of its so called followers.

Then how can you blame Vedas/Sankaracharya for what its/his followers did a more than a thousand years later?

We do not condemn the system for the failure of the administrators. We modify the system to suit our needs. Hinduism is changing and will change to meet the needs of all the Hindus irrespective of caste or creed.

In totallity, one should not blame any religion(outright) just by citing the faults of the followers. I perfectly agree with you.

A religion needs to be evaluated on the basis of its doctrines and how best it answers to God,human rights,equality,purpose of life, life after death,peace,guidance of moral life etc etc. All religions attempted to answer these points only..

As I said earlier, if Christian sect Mormon religion advocates Polygamy or another religion advocates reward of 72 virgins for a terrorist, or another Kallar God promotes 'Roberry', these things could be easily rejected with our own common sense.This could be a wrong ideology/doctrine/philosophy.

If any one argues, that,they are also right, just because they are also a kind of religion, then we need to introspect ourselves about our 'blind faith without any reasoning and critical examination '.

Regarding Kancha's view on Varna doctrine, I have debated with many a people/scholars, and there is a wide confusion among..And a single coherent,consitent interpretation of 'Varna Doctrine' is still not available.I think, Sankaracharyas should take the lead and propound an unified theology on Varna..That could be the best initiative.

 

[sapr333]

PALINDROME>>>Long before Aquinos, rishis of the rig had already created proof of existence of god as well as the non-existence of god. Both schools exist today, its upto an individual's leanings to choose what he wishes to pick>>>

Thanks for the long 2 posts..Btw,though I enjoyed reading your points about Church & History,I dont want to debate here, cos the objective of my participation here is entirely different..So I stay away in discussing about it.

Now coming to the point, can you provide some crispy philosophical (not religious/scriptural/Vedic/Gita) arguments to prove the existence of God, in line with what the hindu philosophers/rishis/munis/seers said...Im really interested to know about it...Please dont quote scriptures or any URL.. Share some crispy paragraphs

As far as Im concerned, so far, I rely only on Platonian>>>Augustinian>Anselm>Thoman Aquinos...ie, 600BC - 1400AD Philosophies. Also I rely on modern thinker William Clark Lane to some extent...

Im so eager to get to discuss on this subject. Thanks Palindrome.

 

[sapr333]

Palindrome>>>Long before Aquinos, rishis of the rig had already created proof of existence of god as well as the non-existence of god>>>

Palindrome, I have an interesting question... As you say, hinduism also has Aethism, then can we also call all Communists/Aethists of the world as Hindus.. What are the problems we face while declaring this...

Secondly, as you said earlier, Jesus Christ came to India, and his teachings were already in Hinduism(much before Christ), why are we getting worried about conversions? We should also think that they are also Hindus, and accomodate them globally..What n all the issue we would face in this context?

Thirdly, to any westen philosopher rather for any one, having both theism and atheism in one umbrella of hinduism (as a religion) is quite confusing indeed..

 

[palindrome]

My inputs

A religion needs to be evaluated on the basis of its doctrines and how best it answers to God,human rights,equality,purpose of life, life after death,peace,guidance of moral life etc etc. All religions attempted to answer these points only..

Why should a religion be evaluated? I hope we are not into giving a ISO 9001 certification ?

How can one evaluate a religion if death cannot be evaluated? As mentioned b4, the church rejects re-birth. Can you prove to me that rebirth does not exist? So are you willing to "evaluate" a religion based on this? Is this not a sufficient point to prove that the entire doctrine of salvation on which the church is based, is false?

Btw, am a learning soul, a student cannot evaluate. So, perhaps you can evaluate. Please leave me out of it.

As I said earlier, if Christian sect Mormon religion advocates Polygamy or another religion advocates reward of 72 virgins for a terrorist, or another Kallar God promotes 'Roberry', these things could be easily rejected with our own common sense.This could be a wrong ideology/doctrine/philosophy.

Who should reject it? The mormons, the muslims, the kallars? And who are you to decide it for them? How do you know its a wrong doctrine / ideology? Are you sure that after you died you did not see 72 virgins? If you did not see, if you can prove it those houries do not exist, then alright i can reject it. If you can neither prove nor disprove anything, then how can anyone "reject" it without knowing if it exists or not?

If any one argues, that,they are also right, just because they are also a kind of religion, then we need to introspect ourselves about our 'blind faith without any reasoning and critical examination '.

How do you know its blind faith? All religions thrive on blind faith. Who are we to decide that one is of blind faith but the other is not?

Regarding Kancha's view on Varna doctrine, I have debated with many a people/scholars, and there is a wide confusion among..And a single coherent,consitent interpretation of 'Varna Doctrine' is still not available.I think, Sankaracharyas should take the lead and propound an unified theology on Varna..That could be the best initiative.

Why should there be a unified theology on varna? why should we try to fit anything hindu into the christian concept of theology? Already explained various meanings of varna - its your wish, which school you wanna join...why shankaracharya, suppose i prefer mahavtar babaji to come and take the so-called lead then? sorry, i hope no such thing happens...we do not want something like a church council deciding our faith, beleifs, lives...

i certainly do not want hindu schools to become an organized religion like the church. Then we face pressure to befool ourselves into believeing crap and pull others also into the same crap..

 

[palindrome]

in brown

Palindrome>>>Long before Aquinos, rishis of the rig had already created proof of existence of god as well as the non-existence of god>>>

Palindrome, I have an interesting question... As you say, hinduism also has Aethism, then can we also call all Communists/Aethists of the world as Hindus.. What are the problems we face while declaring this...

Political school of thought is different from religious schools of thot. It wud be sheer foolishness to call spiritual atheism as communism...hope you read up on various forms of advaita to even compare with communism..

Secondly, as you said earlier, Jesus Christ came to India, and his teachings were already in Hinduism(much before Christ), why are we getting worried about conversions? We should also think that they are also Hindus, and accomodate them globally..What n all the issue we would face in this context?

Because christianity is an organized religion. Hinduism is not, its a way of life and its indeed "a grand philosophy". No one cares if anyone were to convert out of faith. We are not okay with the money lurements and vandalizing of hindu scriptures to serve the growth of a business entity called the church.

We have our own way of life. We do not care about the global scenario. We care only abt the country we live in.

We do not do business with faith. Any faith is free to live here as a faith and not a business entity.

Generally ppl are also wary of the missionaries becoz of their long association with colonialism...everywhere from africa to india first the missionaries arrived, then the colonialists.

The missionaries think they are so-called spreading the word of god. They fail to understand their god learnt his word from here, from us. We do not need their re-packaged words. The missionaries are emotional fools. But the church is not a fool. Churches are well funded by governments who wish to expand their trade in far off lands. The colonialists can come back in anyway, as much thru cultural invasion and economic dependence in future as in the form of east india company in the past.

In that way "organized religion" will always remain a threat to national interests of any country...it may sound far fetched now, but we got out of it just abt 60 years ago.


Thirdly, to any westen philosopher rather for any one, having both theism and atheism in one umbrella of hinduism (as a religion) is quite confusing indeed..

Its better not to try to understand then...christ said 'judge not, that you be not judged'...truly its best not to compare to judge...

a western philosopher raised as a christian will feel confused initially but will learn later...but one who has decided to remain a christian will find it a difficult pill to swallow - since he is used to just one prescribed way..

Hindus have been living that way for ages...its our way of life...we will continue to live that way...

 

[palindrome]

PALINDROME>>>Long before Aquinos, rishis of the rig had already created proof of existence of god as well as the non-existence of god. Both schools exist today, its upto an individual's leanings to choose what he wishes to pick>>>

Thanks for the long 2 posts..Btw,though I enjoyed reading your points about Church & History,I dont want to debate here, cos the objective of my participation here is entirely different..So I stay away in discussing about it.

Now coming to the point, can you provide some crispy philosophical (not religious/scriptural/Vedic/Gita) arguments to prove the existence of God, in line with what the hindu philosophers/rishis/munis/seers said...Im really interested to know about it...Please dont quote scriptures or any URL.. Share some crispy paragraphs

As far as Im concerned, so far, I rely only on Platonian>>>Augustinian>Anselm>Thoman Aquinos...ie, 600BC - 1400AD Philosophies. Also I rely on modern thinker William Clark Lane to some extent...

Im so eager to get to discuss on this subject. Thanks Palindrome.

How much do you want me to explain...i cannot write books here. i already gave the links to commentaries on the brahmasutra by sri shankara, sri ramanuja and sri sivananda....its like a beginner's guide...you'll discover more as you move along....simple mortals like you and me can only remain baffled with the sheer grasp and comprehension of those very many rishis, saints and logicians..again as mentioned b4, am not into debating to criticize or certify anything..

 

[sapr333]

How much do you want me to explain...i cannot write books here. i already gave the links to commentaries on the brahmasutra by sri shankara, sri ramanuja and sri sivananda....its like a beginner's guide...you'll discover more as you move along....simple mortals like you and me can only remain baffled with the sheer grasp and comprehension of those very many rishis, saints and logicians..again as mentioned b4, am not into debating to criticize or certify anything..

Palindrome, lets not get in to emotional talks..Im not here to WIN an argument... Trust me, Im seriously exploring this, in all religions.

What I was asking is, is there any crispy condensed version/article available on internet about rishis/sages philososphical points to prove "Existence of God'.. Infact, Aquinos 'Summa Theologica' itself is too big a book. But its condensed in to 5 lines and is easy to read quickly, and explore it later. For eg, Aristotle;s idea can be crispily mentioned as "God, is primemover and first cause'.. Plato defnined in terms of Absolute Good... Similary, Im searching for condensed versions, written by ancient hindu philosophers,rishis,sages.

Onceagain, im telling you, out of my quest to search this concept on all religions, im here.. I may debate, but definitely not to hurt any religious sentiments/ win an argument.

PS: Its true, we find very less of writings in Internet about Hindu Philosophy..

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

In totallity, one should not blame any religion(outright) just by citing the faults of the followers. I perfectly agree with you.

A religion needs to be evaluated on the basis of its doctrines and how best it answers to God,human rights,equality,purpose of life, life after death,peace,guidance of moral life etc etc. All religions attempted to answer these points only..

As I said earlier, if Christian sect Mormon religion advocates Polygamy or another religion advocates reward of 72 virgins for a terrorist, or another Kallar God promotes 'Roberry', these things could be easily rejected with our own common sense.This could be a wrong ideology/doctrine/philosophy.

If any one argues, that,they are also right, just because they are also a kind of religion, then we need to introspect ourselves about our 'blind faith without any reasoning and critical examination '.

Regarding Kancha's view on Varna doctrine, I have debated with many a people/scholars, and there is a wide confusion among..And a single coherent,consitent interpretation of 'Varna Doctrine' is still not available.I think, Sankaracharyas should take the lead and propound an unified theology on Varna..That could be the best initiative.

Slavery in the U.S was justified by quoting from Christian scriptures. So was Inquisition. All religions are good. But the same can not be said about the followers. I do remember how the Black activists got converted to Islam in the U.S in the 60s. Remember Cassius Clay now known as Mohammed Ali. Malcolm X, Black Panthers and the Nation of Islam.

There is no point in having excellent doctrines if the followers do not follow them. The caste situation is India is very complex. The Christian religion has become part of it. Is a Nadar Christian, a Nadar first or a Christian first. What about Dalit Christians? And Christians in Kerala calling themselves Namboodiri Christians. Why are the Christians still retaining the caste names like Reddy, Banerjee, Mukerjee and others? There has been discrimination based on caste in Christianity also. The English fathers were frustrated by these developments and wrote strongly against it. But to no avail. I have seen the seating arrangements in some of the churches and how the Dalits have been discriminated against in Christianity.

Caste seems to have become part of the Indian psyche.

Caste system is a deep rooted evil and there are no simple solutions to that. Reservations are a palliative and not a solution.

When I mentioned Sankaracharya I meant Adi Sankaracharya and not the present ones. Let us assume that the Sankaracharyas issue a statement against the Varna system. Will it end the two tumbler system immediately or end the problems faced by the Dalits who get elected to the Panchayats. Or will it help a Dalit to become the Bishop of Kottayam?

Are we naive enough to believe that?

What we need are social cum religious leaders like Sri Narayana Guru who transformed an entire community. Every community needs a Sri Narayana Guru. Sri Narayana Guru had many Brahmin followers also.

We need religious leaders who are interested in bringing about social changes. But what we have are only religious and political leaders.

 

[sapr333]

1)) All religions are good. But the same can not be said about the followers.

2))Caste seems to have become part of the Indian psyche.

3) Let us assume that the Sankaracharyas issue a statement against the Varna system. Will it end the two tumbler system immediately or end the problems faced by the Dalits who get elected to the Panchayats. Or will it help a Dalit to become the Bishop of Kottayam?

4)What we need are social cum religious leaders like Sri Narayana Guru who transformed an entire community. Every community needs a Sri Narayana Guru. Sri Narayana Guru had many Brahmin followers also.

.

Nachiinarkinian, you have few valid points..I agree with you..Now that we are shifting slowly from philosophy to sociology.

1) All religions are good!! Palindrome, has concluded, who are we to evaluate/critically examine a religion. He seems to be right too. But then my basic question was not answered.. Do we agree with Mormon Christians Polygamy,Islamic guarentee of 72 virgins after killing a non-moslem or Kallar Caste god, who supports looting? Ive not got convinced on this.

2)Yes caste seems to be a social problem with Indian Psyche.. I agree with you.. Even some sects of Christians/Moslems/Buddhists/Sikhs do have that . We have Christian Vellalar, Muslim Rajput, Buddhist Mahar, Sikh Jat etc etc.. Yes, they all moved out of hinduism, but still have a hang out of Hindu Culture of their society or forefathers.. but then, they all have a strong teaching against 'Varna'..and that teaching empowers any common man to condemn him..But its not the same with Caste-Hindus(im not dragging Brahminism alone here).


3) Its a know fact,hindu philosophy is still with the hands of learned Brahmin.. Still Brahmin is the overall central figure sought out for any rituals.. Lets be practical.. Even a dalit who speaks of equality, tamil chanting,right to be temple priest..but when it comes to their own house rituals, Brahmin pundit is the most sought after.. Lets understand this psyche.. So, I feel, any ideology about Varna should come from Brahmin, so that, that message gets empowered by all. If we wish to kill piracy, we dont ban CD's right!!.. So fighting against Brahmins is not right.. Rather fight against Varna, (piracy, equal terms).. Im sure the words of Sankarcharya, if not Brahmins matter a lot here.. Remember Abraham Lincoln is a white.. He didnt say, that, Oh Ye! Im not a racist..So you guys solve yourselves.

4) I perfectly agree with your 4th point..But, then, they all need Brahmin's support... May be an emotional 'Affirmative Action'!!

 

[malgova.mango]

caste system has its own advantages.

common folks ... and I see nothing evil in 2 tumber or 10 tumbler systems - it's about one's personal hygeine.

Nacchi - you are a Jalpa vadin - meaning you parrot what you say again and again.

 

[sapr333]

caste system has its own advantages.

common folks ... and I see nothing evil in 2 tumber or 10 tumbler systems - it's about one's personal hygeine.

Nacchi - you are a Jalpa vadin - meaning you parrot what you say again and again.

Hygiene is not with a Tumbler... Disposable plastic cups dont go well with the global dining etiquette.Rather, an Italian glassware or chinese clay would command a great dining moments, as long as its sanitized with peroxide or boiling water.

Im sure for you, Ganga is Pure, inspite its factory chemicals and floating rotten dead bodies right.. I remember an article about this, by Shashi Taroor "Purity/Hygiene according to Indians"... will dig out that and post you soon.

Please remember, no hollywood movie goes without a Black Participation!! Thats Affirmative Action..We dont need reservations, provided we all work towards AA.. They call it as 'Black Guilt".. do we have similar 'Untouchable Guilt'.. Lets introspect!!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

You do have reservations which is the Indian way of affirmative action. In the U.S the whites are in a majority. The blacks are in a minority. But India is the only country where you have affirmative action for the majority of the population. Where erstwhile Kings are classified as backward. How can 3% of the population who do not have any legislative representation take affirmative action for the people who are in a majority?

If you mean appointment of Dalits as Priests, I would say you are welcome to the jobs. But that will not solve the community's problem.

I remember an old article in tamileelaam.org web site where it was said that "even if all the Brahmins were to disappear overnight, there would hardly be any improvement in the position of the Dalits."

If Kancha Eliah is frustrated so are millions of Indians like me who thought we will have a equitable and just society after independence. That is what the earlier generation fought for. We are all frustrated and angry with all these caste fights and using caste as a political gimmick to garner votes. India has become a totally caste dominated society in the last three decades, thanks to our political parties.

No Brahmin can lead the Dalits. It would not be acceptable. Has Bharathiar who said "Jathigal Illaiyadi Pappa" become a favorite of the Dalits? No. Sir. When it comes to brasstacks Bharathiar is considered to be only a Brahmin. Vaidyanatha Iyer who lead the Dalits into the Madurai temple. Who remembers him now. All that they have tried is to discredit even that event.

What is needed is unity among the Dalits. Do we have that even in Tamil Nadu? No. Sir. You need Unity and proper leadership.

It is very easy to post on the internet. But reality is different. The Reservation policy has only created a class of privileged people among the Dalits. The Dalit Brahmin. Now you have the Dalit Brahmins who rule and Brahmin Dalits who clean toilets.

In what way is the Brahmin who is cleaning the public toilet in New Delhi different from the Dalit who does the same kind of work?

We have only two castes in India. The rich and the poor.

The poor Dalits and poor Brahmins will continue to suffer.

Yes. MM. My friend. This is an emotional issue for me and I will keep on saying it till my last breath.

Caste is evil.

I will not be posting any more in this thread. This drains me emotionally.

 

[sapr333]

To NACCHINARKINIAN:-

>>>You do have reservations which is the Indian way of affirmative action. >>

In my view, I prefer AA than reservations.. AA is voluntary, and Reservation is compulsion.. Had we realised the mistakes of past (which many dont disagree), and worked for brining up level playing platform, we wouldnt have given a chance for the lawmakers to enact such laws.. Still options are left open..



>>> How can 3% of the population who do not have any legislative representation take affirmative action for the people who are in a majority? >>

Valid point.. Lost the legislative power though.. But still, the social stigma of being elite is with the Priesthood... Even a dalit wants the Brahmin priest to solemnize the marriage of his daughter, and he would definitely not like a 'Dalit priest'.. This was something indoctrinated in to the minds of every Indian hindu.. Lets ponder someways on this.


>>>If you mean appointment of Dalits as Priests, I would say you are welcome to the jobs. But that will not solve the community's problem.>>

Lets try it out. Vaikom revolution has given entry for dalits to temples, which was once a distant dream.. Why not we try this too.. Why not we make few dalits as priest in Tirupathi,Meenakshiamman koil, Srirangam, Chidambaram Natarajar temple... Lets do it voluntarily like AA, not out of compulsion..Thats the difference.. Lets show them the way.

>>>I remember an old article in tamileelaam.org web site where it was said that "even if all the Brahmins were to disappear overnight, there would hardly be any improvement in the position of the Dalits.">>

Perfect.. One should not blame alone Brahmins for this.. Now its percolated down in such a way, that a dalit of higher status discriminate another dalit... But being a responsible Brahmin, who is supposed to be the HOLDER/Guardian of Hinduism, who is supposed to be on the high strata of varna, should take a lead and show to others , that Varna strata is no more valid.. Lets do it voluntarily..


>>>If Kancha Eliah is frustrated so are millions of Indians like me who thought we will have a equitable and just society after independence. That is what the earlier generation fought for. We are all frustrated and angry with all these caste fights and using caste as a political gimmick to garner votes. India has become a totally caste dominated society in the last three decades, thanks to our political parties.>>

Cant help it.. Thats what democracy is all about.. Had the whites of U.S still carried the racism, im sure Obama wouldnt have got elected by this time.. But still, so far, we couldnt elect an untouchable ..be it a Prime Minister or Sankaracharaya.


>>>No Brahmin can lead the Dalits.>>>

Its still a proven fact, that , Brahmins are well in commandable social position, though not political/administrative... Lets bring up social enlightment and empowerment.Rest will follow through.


>>>It would not be acceptable. Has Bharathiar who said "Jathigal Illaiyadi Pappa" become a favorite of the Dalits? No. Sir. When it comes to brasstacks Bharathiar is considered to be only a Brahmin. Vaidyanatha Iyer who lead the Dalits into the Madurai temple. Who remembers him now. All that they have tried is to discredit even that event.>>>

I do agree with your cent percent.. Casteism has gone so deep and rotten, that, even if you work for dalits, you are looked down upon.. Even you may think myself as a dalit, just because Im voicing for it..Thats the plight.. I do agree with you Bharathiyar was forgeotten.. CP. Ramasamy Iyer is forgotten.. So is Abraham lincoln Vs Martin Luther King.. But then, as a fellow human being, we need to work for the 'Social commitment right;;; its out individual responsibliy, and God would reward for it..


>>>>What is needed is unity among the Dalits. Do we have that even in Tamil Nadu? No. Sir. You need Unity and proper leadership.>>>

I think you took it wrong.. Dalits got now a better unity under the cloud of democracy.. Brahmins cant ask for a single Parliamentary seat in T.N. But dalit could command/demand 3 seats.. I think ur logic here is irrational..


>>>I will not be posting any more in this thread. This drains me emotionally.>>

I enjoyed all your meaningful post..Rather, I took time to read some of your articles in other sections too.. Lets not get in to emotions.. Its just a debate..I think, we are debating here healthily and maintaining right decorum.

 

[s007bala]

re

sapr333

thnx for the interaction,i am stopping my posts in this thread henceforth.

sb

 

[palindrome]

caste system has its own advantages.

common folks ... and I see nothing evil in 2 tumber or 10 tumbler systems - it's about one's personal hygeine.

Nacchi - you are a Jalpa vadin - meaning you parrot what you say again and again.

you too are a parrot saying the same things again and again. hope you do not forget that when ppl follow things literally like organized religion tends to do, then there will always be revolts..in any religion its the fundamentalists that are the problem not the solution, and unfortunately the religion just happens to be (ab)used by them...

dunno if any brahman will be willing to claim that mantrasnaanam with cooum river water is clean for him just because he has recited the necessary mantras to sanctify it...

once there is education or civic awareness, then there will be basic sense of hygiene....automatically ppl will themselves feel the need to keep themselves and everything around them clean......efforts shd be made for economic development first, then all these differences will disappear...

 

[palindrome]

Sapr,

Am taking the liberty to post stuff my my end...

In my view, I prefer AA than reservations.. AA is voluntary, and Reservation is compulsion.. Had we realised the mistakes of past (which many dont disagree), and worked for brining up level playing platform, we wouldnt have given a chance for the lawmakers to enact such laws.. Still options are left open..

Again, affirmative action where? We are not an organized religion, so who is gonna take any action...


Valid point.. Lost the legislative power though.. But still, the social stigma of being elite is with the Priesthood... Even a dalit wants the Brahmin priest to solemnize the marriage of his daughter, and he would definitely not like a 'Dalit priest'.. This was something indoctrinated in to the minds of every Indian hindu.. Lets ponder someways on this.

i completely disagree...there are ppl who underpay a priest coz they think aavanku idhu podum (this much is enuf for him)...they are the exploitative type of ppl who have no sense of gratitude either to the government (they don't pay income tax) or to mother earth (waste resources) or to their faith (abuse religion and priests)...and very typically such ppl are those uneducated rich business ppl for whom exploiting everything around them is a habit...

i do not see any social stigma (i suppose you meant attitude not stigma), of being elite with preisthood...hope you know that there are several non-brahmin priests equally utilized for their services..like kodava community does not use brahmin preists...whatever was this indoctrination abt (against) brahmins, apparently it came about in the colonial times...

Lets try it out. Vaikom revolution has given entry for dalits to temples, which was once a distant dream.. Why not we try this too.. Why not we make few dalits as priest in Tirupathi,Meenakshiamman koil, Srirangam, Chidambaram Natarajar temple... Lets do it voluntarily like AA, not out of compulsion..Thats the difference.. Lets show them the way.

Do you think by becoming a priest of any temple, a dalit gets rich? gets any so-called social status? As said b4, there are/have been several village temples manned by non-brahmin preists...some of these priests have later passed themselves off as brahmins also...plus, several communities made several claims during the colonial times after that so-called 'caste awareness' was created in them..

you are talking abt key places, where it is the actual practice that matters...like in tirupathi the vaikhanasa agama is followed which requires a great deal of training and is tehrefore passed on within the family / group...its like you make sure your son is very well trained...those priests cud very well take up any other profession esp since their income is no good, but they are living their life in service of God....again we are not the kind that do business with god..

i am extremely certain that not a single non-brahmin (no matter even if he is the most miserable exploitative corrupt type) will accept an outsider performing prayers at tirumala...why shd you bother with preisthood as any symbol of status..who told you that preisthood is considered elitist? we do not consider it elite, we consider it holy and wish to keep it seperate from common life...so far, its the ppl with the hard cash that have been deciding how they want things to be..each community in india consideres itelf as elite..please let me know how many politicians are actually considering any priest as elite..those guys are so loaded with ego, you think they even consider god as elite??..

Perfect.. One should not blame alone Brahmins for this.. Now its percolated down in such a way, that a dalit of higher status discriminate another dalit... But being a responsible Brahmin, who is supposed to be the HOLDER/Guardian of Hinduism, who is supposed to be on the high strata of varna, should take a lead and show to others , that Varna strata is no more valid.. Lets do it voluntarily..

we do not think that the brahmins are any higher varna strata to take any lead...they proclaim their greatness as much as other arrogant ppl of non-brahmin communities do...it does not mean everyone accepts or believes that anyone is great..its the british that kept propagating the idea that the brahmins are great and the brahmins fell for it hook line and sinker without realizing the british were digging their grave beneath their feet, by encouraging other sections to go against the brahmins...the brits did a good job with their buckets of fuel that continue to burn to this day..


I do agree with your cent percent.. Casteism has gone so deep and rotten, that, even if you work for dalits, you are looked down upon.. Even you may think myself as a dalit, just because Im voicing for it..Thats the plight.. I do agree with you Bharathiyar was forgeotten.. CP. Ramasamy Iyer is forgotten.. So is Abraham lincoln Vs Martin Luther King.. But then, as a fellow human being, we need to work for the 'Social commitment right;;; its out individual responsibliy, and God would reward for it..

Casteism has gone in deep and rotten bcoz the politicians want it that way...for their vote bank..its the politicians that will never let the caste system go..

 

[palindrome]

Palindrome, lets not get in to emotional talks..Im not here to WIN an argument... Trust me, Im seriously exploring this, in all religions.

What I was asking is, is there any crispy condensed version/article available on internet about rishis/sages philososphical points to prove "Existence of God'.. Infact, Aquinos 'Summa Theologica' itself is too big a book. But its condensed in to 5 lines and is easy to read quickly, and explore it later. For eg, Aristotle;s idea can be crispily mentioned as "God, is primemover and first cause'.. Plato defnined in terms of Absolute Good... Similary, Im searching for condensed versions, written by ancient hindu philosophers,rishis,sages.

Onceagain, im telling you, out of my quest to search this concept on all religions, im here.. I may debate, but definitely not to hurt any religious sentiments/ win an argument.

PS: Its true, we find very less of writings in Internet about Hindu Philosophy..

thankyou for clarifying...

a crispy condensed version is tuf to come by...i do not think a one liner like "God, is primemover and first cause" is enuf to sum up a thinker's reasons for making any statement..not sure you want to evaluate or critically examine anything with those one liners instead of the thinker's reasons...

but i'll try to look to post some condensed stuff for suggested reading...

hope Sri N-ji can post some suggested books / condensed versions..

 

[palindrome]

in brown

1) All religions are good!! Palindrome, has concluded, who are we to evaluate/critically examine a religion. He seems to be right too. But then my basic question was not answered.. Do we agree with Mormon Christians Polygamy,Islamic guarentee of 72 virgins after killing a non-moslem or Kallar Caste god, who supports looting? Ive not got convinced on this.

There is nothing called perfect answers...my take is that no one needs to agree or disagree with someone's ways...if one does not like it, then they just need to move away from that place, its not necessary to live with them, around them...again, its not the kallar god's fault that some robbers decided to abuse him by making him their deity.

3) Its a know fact,hindu philosophy is still with the hands of learned Brahmin.. Still Brahmin is the overall central figure sought out for any rituals.. Lets be practical.. Even a dalit who speaks of equality, tamil chanting,right to be temple priest..but when it comes to their own house rituals, Brahmin pundit is the most sought after.. Lets understand this psyche.. So, I feel, any ideology about Varna should come from Brahmin, so that, that message gets empowered by all. If we wish to kill piracy, we dont ban CD's right!!.. So fighting against Brahmins is not right.. Rather fight against Varna, (piracy, equal terms).. Im sure the words of Sankarcharya, if not Brahmins matter a lot here.. Remember Abraham Lincoln is a white.. He didnt say, that, Oh Ye! Im not a racist..So you guys solve yourselves.

wrong...please go to the ramakrishna mutt, let me know how many monks you find there from 'brahmin' castes...same goes for several other monastic and non-monatic traditions...all are well versed in philosophies...some also have their own philosophy...

there is no varna to be fought against...the prob comes because one section beleives that it had always been superior; and an other section beleives that it had always been inferior....as long as such a mental attitude exists, then such a prob will also exist, irrespective of whether anyone follows or does not follow any varna system...please do not tell me that the rich relatives and poor relatives of the same caste are considering themselves as equal...