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Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

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i can only say i feel god exists..that a creator exists...as energy..
wht do you think i shd feel abt 72 houries....i can only merely say i do not know if it exists or not, so can i reject something without knowing its existence..

ps: am getting sorta tired of the 72 houries, kallar god and polygamy..are these the only yardsticks you wish to measure any "morality" on ?

You feel God, so you accepted it, and dont feel '72 houries" so you in a dilemma neither to reject not accept it.

So in nut shell you wish to go by your own 'Feelings' rather than evaluating it.. In this context Hitlet /Veerappan/LTTE /Idi Amin and Stalin were right in their own feeling, and you have no right to reject them.. Are you concluding this way?

Dont you think there could be an univeral moral standard to reject/accept them all.. Dont you think you should have a univeral standard to prevent our children being RDX carriers, for want of 72 virgins..

In nut shell, Im driving my point here... Shouldnt we critically examine/evaluate the things what we see around with an univeral bench mark, instead of just living with a closed mindset..

If we believed in what we see blindly, and be content with that, then we would be using Abacus,not a laptop..
 
You feel God, so you accepted it, and dont feel '72 houries" so you in a dilemma neither to reject not accept it.

So in nut shell you wish to go by your own 'Feelings' rather than evaluating it.. In this context Hitlet /Veerappan/LTTE /Idi Amin and Stalin were right in their own feeling, and you have no right to reject them.. Are you concluding this way?

Dont you think there could be an univeral moral standard to reject/accept them all.. Dont you think you should have a univeral standard to prevent our children being RDX carriers, for want of 72 virgins..

In nut shell, Im driving my point here... Shouldnt we critically examine/evaluate the things what we see around with an univeral bench mark, instead of just living with a closed mindset..

If we believed in what we see blindly, and be content with that, then we would be using Abacus,not a laptop..

am not in a dilemma abt 72 houries...am not looking for answers on that...i neither accept nor reject it..

for me its not abt "critical evaluation"..the thing reg god and why i say i feel god exists, as mentioned b4 i will not speak on it on open domain..its private..you are free to evaluate anything critically or anyway...i only say am not into it any evaluation...
 
i can only say i feel god exists..that a creator exists...as energy..

wht do you think i shd feel abt 72 houries....i can only merely say i do not know if it exists or not, so can i reject something without knowing its existence..

reg charvaka..some online links:

1) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3440/charvaka.html


Thanks for the link.. I liked the first link from geocities...citing swami Virjanand..Authors name missing though.. sounds nice.... Need some time to respond to you in detail..

btw, dont reject houries just because you havent seen 72 virgins.. Matter of fact you also havent seen God and Past life.. Rather , none of us...
 
Palindrome, Im citing here the 5 points said by Thomas Aquinos, the greatest Philospher (lets keep aside his Christian Idenitity) about the philosophical existence of God.. Keep in mind, as on date, no single philospher could prove him wrong and claim 'God Doesnt exist".. Please try to refute him.. A long passage though, I thought not to share a link, rather cut and paste it here

It must be said that God's existence can be proved in five ways. The first and most obvious way is based on the existence of motion. It is certain and in fact evident to our senses that some things in the world are moved. Everything that is moved, however, is moved by something else, for a thing cannot be moved unless that movement is potentially within it. A thing moves something else insofar as it actually exists, for to move something is simply to actualize what is potentially within that thing. Something can be led thus from potentiality to actuality only by something else which is already actualized. For example, a fire, which is actually hot, causes the change or motion whereby wood, which is potentially hot, becomes actually hot. Now it is impossible that something should be potentially and actually the same thing at the same time, although it could be potentially and actually different things. For example, what is actually hot cannot at the same moment be actually cold, although it can be actually hot and potentially cold. Therefore it is impossible that a thing could move itself, for that would involve simultaneously moving and being moved in the same respect. Thus whatever is moved must be moved by something, else, etc. This cannot go on to infinity, however, for if it did there would be no first mover and consequently no other movers, because these other movers are such only insofar as they are moved by a first mover. For example, a stick moves only because it is moved by the hand. Thus it is necessary to proceed back to some prime mover which is moved by nothing else, and this is what everyone means by "God."

The second way is based on the existence of efficient causality. We see in the world around us that there is an order of efficient causes. Nor is it ever found (in fact it is impossible) that something is its own efficient cause. If it were, it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Nevertheless, the order of efficient causes cannot proceed to infinity, for in any such order the first is cause of the middle (whether one or many) and the middle of the last. Without the cause, the effect does not follow. Thus, if the first cause did not exist, neither would the middle and last causes in the sequence. If, however, there were an infinite regression of efficient causes, there would be no first efficient cause and therefore no middle causes or final effects, which is obviously not the case. Thus it is necessary to posit some first efficient cause, which everyone calls "God."

The third way is based on possibility and necessity. We find that some things can either exist or not exist, for we find them springing up and then disappearing, thus sometimes existing and sometimes not. It is impossible, however, that everything should be such, for what can possibly not exist does not do so at some time. If it is possible for every particular thing not to exist, there must have been a time when nothing at all existed. If this were true, however, then nothing would exist now, for something that does not exist can begin to do so only through something that already exists. If, therefore, there had been a time when nothing existed, then nothing could ever have begun to exist, and thus there would be nothing now, which is clearly false. Therefore all beings cannot be merely possible. There must be one being which is necessary. Any necessary being, however, either has or does not have something else as the cause of its necessity. If the former, then there cannot be an infinite series of such causes, any more than there can be an infinite series of efficient causes, as we have seen. Thus we must to posit the existence of something which is necessary and owes its necessity to no cause outside itself. That is what everyone calls "God."

The fourth way is based on the gradations found in things. We find that things are more or less good, true, noble, etc.; yet when we apply terms like "more" and "less" to things we imply that they are closer to or farther from some maximum. For example, a thing is said to be hotter than something else because it comes closer to that which is hottest. Therefore something exists which is truest, greatest, noblest, and consequently most fully in being; for, as Aristotle says, the truest things are most fully in being. That which is considered greatest in any genus is the cause of everything is that genus, just as fire, the hottest thing, is the cause of all hot things, as Aristotle says. Thus there is something which is the cause of being, goodness, and every other perfection in all things, and we call that something "God."

The fifth way is based on the governance of things. We see that some things lacking cognition, such as natural bodies, work toward an end, as is seen from the fact hat they always (or at least usually) act the same way and not accidentally, but by design. Things without knowledge tend toward a goal, however, only if they are guided in that direction by some knowing, understanding being, as is the case with an arrow and archer. Therefore, there is some intelligent being by whom all natural things are ordered to their end, and we call this being "God."

To the first argument, therefore, it must be said that, as Augustine remarks, "since God is the supreme good he would permit no evil in his works unless he were so omnipotent and good that he could produce good even out of evil."

To the second, it must be said that, since nature works according to a determined end through the direction of some superior agent, whatever is done by nature must be traced back to God as its first cause. in the same way, those things which are done intentionally must be traced back to a higher cause which is neither reason nor human will, for these can change and cease to exist and, as we have seen, all such things must be traced back to some first principle which is unchangeable and necessary, as has been shown.
 
Thanks for the link.. I liked the first link from geocities...citing swami Virjanand..Authors name missing though.. sounds nice.... Need some time to respond to you in detail..

btw, dont reject houries just because you havent seen 72 virgins.. Matter of fact you also havent seen God and Past life.. Rather , none of us...

sorry sapr..i hv been thru past life regression sessions....i have seen past life exists...
 
Sapr,

Sorry am not into refuting.

You can find verses where a writer / poet / rishi expressed his possible expression on:
1) existence of motion,
2) existence of efficient causality,
3) possibility and necessity,
4) gradations found in things,
5) governance of things

in the 4 vedas itself.

i remember having read verses on the existence of motion, that god governs, that god is the cause and causes things to happen, that god possibly exists, and proclamations that god definitely exists.. in the rigved itself.
 
sorry sapr..i hv been thru past life regression sessions....i have seen past life exists...

fine.. Im not asking you to prove my past life.. Rather, please put it in a logical/conclusive philosphical way, and prove your point , so that every one understands it..

I just cant rely on your own personal feeling right!! If so, I have to believe PC Sorkar and Black Magic too... In that case, we both dont need God..
 
fine.. Im not asking you to prove my past life.. Rather, please put it in a logical/conclusive philosphical way, and prove your point , so that every one understands it..

I just cant rely on your own personal feeling right!! If so, I have to believe PC Sorkar and Black Magic too... In that case, we both dont need God..
am not inclined to talk abt me. neither can i explain my logic or anything....there is nothing to proove..so many ppl have gone thru it: http://www.brianweiss.com/

it is not some sorkar or magic...you can find a therapist to contact in your respective city here (hope u try it): http://www.ibrt.org/therapist-city.html
 
am not inclined to talk abt me. neither can i explain my logic or anything....there is nothing to proove..so many ppl have gone thru it: http://www.brianweiss.com/

it is not some sorkar or magic...you can find a therapist to contact in your respective city here (hope u try it): http://www.ibrt.org/therapist-city.html

Palindrome, I think , we are stooping too low, in terms of debate etiquettes....If you cant explain your logic, then I cant help it. I wouldnt say, that you lack intelligence...Rather, I feel, you wish to have a closed mind...

Anyways, its not a personal remark towards you..

Btw, thanks for the M.S music link (kurai ondrum illai).. Im enjoyin it.
 
Sapr,
You can find verses where a writer / poet / rishi expressed his possible expression on:
1) existence of motion,
2) existence of efficient causality,
3) possibility and necessity,
4) gradations found in things,
5) governance of things

in the 4 vedas itself.

.

Glad we both are treading the same line... Now, could you please refer some of the philosophers(rishi/Muni/Seer's) name who propounded it.. I just wanna compare it with the time line.. Also please share me some link on this. Also, pls work out how much it differs from Adi Shankara's philosophy...

btw, Im on the look out for the oldest philosophy, which falls in line with Thomas Aquinos/ Augustinian concept of God. Thanks in advance.
 
Sapr,

Sorry am not into refuting.

.


Palindrome, your response sounds more like a 'Politically correct one''.. :) Jokes apart..

There can be Good/Bad, and there is nothing in the middle.. Truth/False, and nothing in the middle.. Accept/Reject... Thats the basic funda in any debate.. Being neutral, is like a mute spectator, but then, he too takes a conscious decision within himself..

So lets be sharp to the point in our response..


PS: I said earlier, we are not here to win arguments...If I loose something with you, It means, I got an opportunity to learn something new from you.Thats my perspective..
 
Palindrome, I think , we are stooping too low, in terms of debate etiquettes....If you cant explain your logic, then I cant help it. I wouldnt say, that you lack intelligence...Rather, I feel, you wish to have a closed mind...

Anyways, its not a personal remark towards you..

Btw, thanks for the M.S music link (kurai ondrum illai).. Im enjoyin it.

if someone cannot explain their logic, does it become 'stooping low in debate etiquette' ...lemme know in which part have i stooped too low in terms of debate etiquette with you...

you say its bcoz i cannot explain my logic, then i ask you - can you explain the logic of death? do you know why you die? if you do, please teach me the logic of death..i will be grateful for the intelligence..so far as far as i know, it is a closed chapter that nobody is able to explain..not psychiatrists trained in regression-techniques either...nachiketa barely came close to it...

you may wish to be critical in your examination of social probs..but in matter of the spirit, am wondering how you can apply the same yardsticks...i gave you the links where you can find substantial proof of rebith..if its proof that you want, you have plenty available...is is possible that wish to be judgemental without exploring further...
 
Glad we both are treading the same line... Now, could you please refer some of the philosophers(rishi/Muni/Seer's) name who propounded it.. I just wanna compare it with the time line.. Also please share me some link on this. Also, pls work out how much it differs from Adi Shankara's philosophy...

btw, Im on the look out for the oldest philosophy, which falls in line with Thomas Aquinos/ Augustinian concept of God. Thanks in advance.

the rig ved is far older than christ. time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda that westerns travelled along the silk route and learned from the east is well known..

we do not name the philosophies after the rishis...everything belongs to god and there is no intellectual property rights (IPR) in faith...its the west that tries to capitalize on it... the unfortunate part is that some ppl in hinduism too wanted to make IPR rights out of spirituality and it brought eveyone to where we are now...that's the prob when a religion not designed to be organized is tried to be fitted into an organized mould long after it has served its purpose of needing to be saved. anyways, this has nothing to do with your search...

you can get plenty of info online where ppl have discussed and worked out various difference b/w various philosophies... it wud take a few books if that info is put into print format...and again, for me am not inclined to scrath the surface and post judgements on the statements instead of the reasons behind it...thanks...my own ideas also run into pages...i cudn;t do all that posting on a forum like this...but i do intend to blog and write things down there instead of diaries...
 
in italics


Palindrome, your response sounds more like a 'Politically correct one''.. :) Jokes apart..

is it possible to be politically correct in matter of the spirit...does the soul have a religion at all...


There can be Good/Bad, and there is nothing in the middle.. Truth/False, and nothing in the middle.. Accept/Reject... Thats the basic funda in any debate.. Being neutral, is like a mute spectator, but then, he too takes a conscious decision within himself..

if there is nothing middle for you, then it wud be difficult for you to understand buddhism or any eastern thot that is based on the middle path...

So lets be sharp to the point in our response..


PS: I said earlier, we are not here to win arguments...If I loose something with you, It means, I got an opportunity to learn something new from you.Thats my perspective..

we learn something new everyday....there is no question of winning or loosing since we are posting like anonymous spirits (anonymous thoughts), nobody knows each other personally here..
 
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I told u earlier, regarding past life Vs life after death Vs Karma, we can have a seperate debate in forthcoming days.. I would definitely bookmark this link.
Now, to start with, lets clear the concept of God.. I wish, Nachinarkinian/Seshadri too join this discussion, and enlighten us..

i do not know to debate death...if you can, i will stand by and watch your conversation with sesh and sri n-ji...and just as a small suggestion, if you do not try out past life regression yourself, am not sure you will really get the pic of anything that anyone tries to convey...thanks for the conversation thus far..god bless..
 
Palindrome, refering your own geocities link post #274 about Charvaka... The first paragraph says..

"Is it possible that any moral man can tolerate the supremely disgusting and insufferable stuff to be found, for instance, in the Linga Purana? The feats of the Linga, though heroic(!) indeed, are a record of shame and a tale of utter indecency and obscenity. Do such books teach religion? If the reply be in the affirmative, then I say that they teach religions which can only debase the people." Swami Virjanand

He professed that no living creature is immortal not even mankind. All are subject to death and therefore must live in pleasure and comfort until then. Let a man, then, enjoy himself to his utmost capacity, deport himself in his world as expediency may direct, accumulate wealth and spend it on the gratification of his desires.

All their interests are centered in this world. There is no hereafter.

As a follower of reincarnation, can you refute Charvaka? Btw, the first parah of the link provided by you,too shares my earlier said point of view about "Absolute Good/Holiness of God"..


>>.i hv been thru past life regression sessions....i have seen past life exists.>

Im not going to refute your personal experience.Tomorrow someone can claim, that he is been in to the future. Someone can claim to have come back from Heaven..

But how are we going to present it out as logical facts, to others, in an understandable way? Thats the point I was driving.
 
in brown

As a follower of reincarnation, can you refute Charvaka? Btw, the first parah of the link provided by you,too shares my earlier said point of view about "Absolute Good/Holiness of God"..

obviously those monks were not ones who had tried out past life regressions, either as hypnotism or as some forms of yoga or in any other form...where is the question of refuting anything here... if someone else has decided to refute something merely coz he did not see it, its upto him...that's another reason i do not go by things written by men, just bcoz they were monks..who is gonna judge whatever is so-called "holiness"..i have nothing to say abt "abolute good"...i can only say god probably has no qualities, bcoz if god is absolute good then he cud not have designed our senses to perceive what we see as "bad"..and again if i were to post my reasons, it wud take pages on end, which i cannot do here..am not into condensed / abridged stuff...

>>.i hv been thru past life regression sessions....i have seen past life exists.>

Im not going to refute your personal experience.Tomorrow someone can claim, that he is been in to the future. Someone can claim to have come back from Heaven..

But how are we going to present it out as logical facts, to others, in an understandable way? Thats the point I was driving.

why shd anyone try to present so-called logical facts...isn't it churlish to try to prove a point in such things..is this a social issue?......

you can watch those videos in the hyperlinks posted..you can certainly talk to psychiatrists / therapists trained in regression to clarify your doubts..even better you can try it out yourself....

if its the quest, then you already have it on your hands; with substantial proof of its existence...but if it is about proving something using so-called logic merely to (dis)/prove something to serve a preexisting stance, then i suppose it may not help...thanks..
 
Palidrome, I would add this philosophical point to Charvaka's argument against un-holy nature of god (from the link provided by you)

This argument is to prove the goodness of God. Everything has some goodness, and the cause of each thing is better than the thing caused. Therefore, the first cause is the best possible thing, and hence the first cause 'God' should have the Absolute Goodness and Holiness.

Again coming to your 5 points about Logical Proof of Existence of God, I have a few points to say. Yes, hinduism has the oldest philosophies in the world. Around 600BC it evolved well in Greece, primiarily due to its Democratic set up and that the time Aristotle and Plato came in.. Btw,Bible as such doest talk about the logical proof of existence of God.

So is the case with 4 veda's, though you calim otherway citing the same 5 points spelt by Aquinas.(Anyway, Im not sure though, pls quote some specific things from Rig Veda)
In general, Existence in absolute truth is central to Vedanta epistemology. Traditionally sense perception based approach was used in Vedas to prove God . Its only mayavada schools of Adi Shankara attempted to answer in a logical/philosophical way, about the Proof of Existence of God.. I think possibly around 800AD.
 
Btw, the points on my previous post is just my opinion, which I got through various readings.. I wish some scholars could throw some light on that..Im eager to explore that subject.
 
sapr,

Palidrome, I would add this philosophical point to Charvaka's argument against un-holy nature of god (from the link provided by you)

This argument is to prove the goodness of God. Everything has some goodness, and the cause of each thing is better than the thing caused. Therefore, the first cause is the best possible thing, and hence the first cause 'God' should have the Absolute Goodness and Holiness.

i suppose these are your conclusions of sorts....nice..if i were to talk on this it wud take pages...i'd rather blog..thanks.

Again coming to your 5 points about Logical Proof of Existence of God, I have a few points to say. Yes, hinduism has the oldest philosophies in the world. Around 600BC it evolved well in Greece, primiarily due to its Democratic set up and that the time Aristotle and Plato came in.. Btw,Bible as such doest talk about the logical proof of existence of God.

all forms of expression are expressions by man...in terms of doctrinal religion, philosophies seem to get used to justify doctrines....logical proof of whatever existence is but again an expression of man....

So is the case with 4 veda's, though you calim otherway citing the same 5 points spelt by Aquinas.(Anyway, Im not sure though, pls quote some specific things from Rig Veda)..

not sure you can say stuff abt all 4 vedas without reading all of them throughly..neither have i..so i cannot say anything abt any of them off hand either....hope you will please pick up some books and read..asking other to quote wud be like trying to deal with a few teaspoons of water when there is a whole ocean awaiting to be discovered...i respect aquinas, but i think he is not the only one or the first one..several walked that path before him..

In general, Existence in absolute truth is central to Vedanta epistemology. Traditionally sense perception based approach was used in Vedas to prove God . Its only mayavada schools of Adi Shankara attempted to answer in a logical/philosophical way, about the Proof of Existence of God.. I think possibly around 800AD.

i suppose you are presume vedas are stuff abt "sense perception approach" because that's how (unfortunately) some people have propagated it....perception and perceptive faculties do have a role but seemingly sort of a fairly limited role as such...

lets just say that though one cannot call it proof as such, those vedic age ppl were doing stuff like astronomy, mathematics, science, physics...and they expressed that god exists....it was all ages before 800ad..you cud google and find that... there are several books, and online places to look for all of those concepts...
btw, some writer(s) also wondered if god does exists or not...all a continuing human endeavor as an attempt to understand life and the afterlife..

Sapr,

thanks for this conversation till now.


to sum up, (for me) hinduism is an expanse like the space, its sculptures, paintings, poetry, music, and every expression of art is a delight to the sense...the hindus learnt to fill up their senses, and the art of living without senses and the art of dying a deathless death...this faith cannot be confined to certain places...it grows despite any attempts by anyone to confine, impose, change or convert...am glad to be a hindu.


i have nothing more to add to our discussions anymore or to your search..
i suppose its time for you to move on to better conversations as well...

till we meet again...au revior. gracias.
 
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palindrome and sapr333, i enjoyed your conversation...:couch2:

but i choose to experience rather than debate, as regards the concept of truth... my personal life itself is a book for me... to search and find reasons and answers...

but an inner sense urges me to feel the strong sense of karma phalas... inexplicable, but yet.....

thanks,
 
To Palindrome>>>>>>>>i suppose you are presume vedas are stuff abt "sense perception approach" because that's how (unfortunately) some people have propagated it....perception and perceptive faculties do have a role but seemingly sort of a fairly limited role as such...>>

Correct me if Im wrong....Even your debates also relied mostly on 'Sense of Perception"..Thats why I carefully used this word.

When I asked you to disprove "72 Houries", you said you cant logically reject it unless you get a perception/guarenteed witness of virgins.. Also you asked me to feel and experince what you have felt about 'Past life', without attempting to logically prove/disprove to someone who has not/rather not wish to experience it. Frankly, I may not have felt it, but had you proved me logically(though not scientifically), I would have definitely accepted it.

I tried to prove the existence of God through Thomas Aquinas/Adi Sankara's logical claims.. Rather, you wish to rely on rishis claim or your personal experience with God.. Even George Bush claimed to talk with Jesus Christ on daily basis... He experienced it.. But will you accept it, just because the President experienced it?

Having said that Im not disproving your here totally.. you too have some valid school of though.. What I mean to say is, the GenX next generation is going to ask this way and agree to things blindly. They even dont want to go to the laboratory and test it, rather, they look for reasoning/proof from a distance. Thats how the world is goin on.

If Rishi/Monk/Priest has felt God, doesnt matter....we want the proof.. If not a physical proof of God, rather, better a philosophical/logical proof.. Thats the point I was driving through!!

That doest mean neither you are wrong, nor me.. Im trying to tread the path of this modern day,amidst the advanced human beings all around us.
 
sapr,



Sapr,

thanks for this conversation till now.


to sum up, (for me) hinduism is an expanse like the space, its sculptures, paintings, poetry, music, and every expression of art is a delight to the sense...the hindus learnt to fill up their senses,>>>

Palindrome, there are lot more modes to fill up their senses.. Lets not confine God to fill up our senses.. As Denver sings' You fill up my senses, like a night in the forest"".... Art, music,dance,worship,rituals, sacrifice etc can all be the modes to praise God.. Filling up our senses, is all about out 'The purpose of life''.. If our purpose of life is to reach heaven/be oneness with god, then art/music have no role there, and there is somethign beyond that



.>>>>>..am glad to be a hindu.


Matter of fact, thats a irrelevant point to our discussion...Even an aetheist is glad to be what he is..

i have nothing more to add to our discussions anymore or to your search..
i suppose its time for you to move on to better conversations as well...

till we meet again...au revior. gracias.

Gracias.. Bon Jour!
 
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