Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

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Nachhinarkiniyan>>Another problem was ignoring the facts about the intermediate castes to which he belonged and the practice of untouchability among the Dalits themselves>>>

In that book even Kancha couldnt resist telling out his caste identity. There is even discrimination among Dalits. But Brahmins being in this highest social strata, should take the lead and abolish. Like how discrimnation percolated from top to bottom, similarly, casteism can be erased out, if its dealt from the top.

It could be achieved by installing non-brahmins as Sankaracharyas, giving participation to dalits in prime temples, discarding compulsory vegetarian ideology, rituals in tamil etc etc. That would bring confidence in all ... To add, in the process, reservation also should be scrapped.

Simplistic solutions do not work. The Saiva Siddhanta Adheenams who control most of the temples in Tamil Nadu are not Brahmins. None of these measures will end the "two tumbler System". Brahmins are not involved in that. I have worked with Dalits and have been involved in Dalit upliftment activities.

To quote a personal example of how bad the caste system is.

Decades back I had employed a girl from the washermen community as housemaid. My neighbors none of whom were Brahmins objected to my employing her. Then in a couple of years she got married. Then I employed a girl whose father was doing the work of carrying dead bodies to and from the mortuary. He was employed bu the Municipality.

The earlier housemaid came to my house with her husband to get our blessings. She was shocked to see the new housemaid. She told us not to employ her because of her father's work.

Of course I ignored her advice like I had ignored my neighbor's advice earlier.

No short cuts or instant solutions are possible for solving this problem.

The first step is for everyone to accept that "All are born Equal". Are you willing to accept that?

 

[palindrome]

Hinduism is not definitely declining. It is well and alive. These extreme views about the decline of Hinduism has only as much validity as Kancha Ilaiah's views in his books. Outbursts of anguish and frustration.

It is declining only in AP and Kerala. Again not because of the religion itself. Its only because of the money play.

People like Kancha who openly invite the missionaries certainly need to be booked for playing with religious sentiments. But such people despite their stupid intellectual work are supported by high ups. One papal CM has full blessing of mother mary at the centre. And ppl like that turn a blind eye to intellectual work from the likes of people like Kancha.

But i think, let it be. Let them convert. They will come back someday. How much can money power play. After people have had their fill with feeling prosperous, it is likely they will start looking for meaning in their life, and then revert back to hindusim. Maybe it was God's work to keep Thirumala there so the people there won't get lost.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I do not know about A.P. But in Kerala there is not much conversion activity. In fact there is a lot of competition among the various Christian denominations. Some denominations which are popular in U.S have offered sizable amount of money to other Christians to convert to their denomination.

 

[sapr333]

Hindu monks say people themselves knowingly and shamelessly run after the goodies...Its only the money that is making the difference. Not the religion itself.

Its a sheer excuse. If so, with the same money, they could be bought back to hinduism. But its not the case..They are getting fully involved with their mind. If you happen to meet any convert and discuss with them, one will realise how deeply they are involved in their new religion.

I think one need to introspect and analyse this, than just blaming it on Money & Rice.

 

[sapr333]

The first step is for everyone to accept that "All are born Equal". Are you willing to accept that?

Nacchinarkinian,

The dilemma here is, on what scriptural/Vedic basis, we could reinstate this point.

For eg, Buddhists and Moslems do have a strong scriptural basis for equality/brotherhood. According to Christians "God created humans in his image, and hence each one is entitled to have his basic dignitity"..This essentially sound scriptural authority, is missing in Hinduism or may be intentionally hidden.

The dilemma in hinduism is Varna, which is again inter-twined with Karma.If any one of that doctrine is discorded, the rest also will logically fall back. And the sadest part is Acharyas themselves strongly advocate in-equality by birth.

 

[sapr333]

None of these measures will end the "two tumbler System"

As said, this menace has percolated from top to bottom varna. If some one still follows Two Tumbler system, another one, however he is refined, will not let in another lower varna in to the kitchen or temple sanctorum.

In my view, the initiative should come from TOP Varna. Imagine if all Brahmins/Acharyas by heart start advocating "No Casteism", down the line will also feel the same. After all, it got percolated from Top to bottom.

My request is, eradication of casteism is impossibly,without the whole hearted involvement of Brahmins..Any one in that context would say... "Hey Comon, even the Brahmins have discarded caste, what the heck you Sudra got to hump over untouchable'..

Similarly, like How Abraham lincoln and whites initiated the "Black Equality', the Brahmins should take the lead and responsiblity.

 

[palindrome]

Its a sheer excuse. If so, with the same money, they could be bought back to hinduism. But its not the case..They are getting fully involved with their mind. If you happen to meet any convert and discuss with them, one will realise how deeply they are involved in their new religion.

I think one need to introspect and analyse this, than just blaming it on Money & Rice.

I dunno if it is a sheer excuse. I heard from a hindu monk himself how difficult it is to convince people on the basis of money alone. The crowd itself is materialistic. So what to do. Telugu brahmins are also converting. And ofcourse they are doing it for money alone. It really helps to be part of the "it" crowd since they get a great network and support base.

I agree with you that once they become a part of that crowd they become very involved in their new religion and cannot stop praising it to no end.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Nacchinarkinian,

The dilemma here is, on what scriptural/Vedic basis, we could reinstate this point.

For eg, Buddhists and Moslems do have a strong scriptural basis for equality/brotherhood. According to Christians "God created humans in his image, and hence each one is entitled to have his basic dignitity"..This essentially sound scriptural authority, is missing in Hinduism or may be intentionally hidden.

The dilemma in hinduism is Varna, which is again inter-twined with Karma.If any one of that doctrine is discorded, the rest also will logically fall back. And the sadest part is Acharyas themselves strongly advocate in-equality by birth.

Arya Samaj is a Hindu reform movement founded in India by Swami Dayananda Saraswati in 1875. He believed in the infallible authority of the Vedas. Dayananda advocated the doctrine of karma and reincarnation, and emphasized the ideals of brahmacharya (chastity) and sanyasa (renunciation).

Arya Samaj unequivocally condemns practices such as polytheism, idolatry, iconolatry, animal sacrifice, ancestor worship, pilgrimage, priestcraft, the belief in avatars or incarnations of God, the hereditary caste system, untouchability and child marriage on the grounds that all these lack Vedic sanction.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The caste problem is no longer religious. It is a social problem which has affected the Dalits who have converted to Christianity also.

No religious leader can solve this problem. What we need are social reformers like Swami Dayananda Saraswati who founded Arya Samaj.

 

[sapr333]

. Telugu brahmins are also converting. And ofcourse they are doing it for money alone. It really helps to be part of the "it" crowd since they get a great network and support base.
.

You may be surprised to know the recent pamphet (Satya Dharshini) issue in Karnataka , ridiculing as 'Un-Holy Hindu Gods' is also scripted by a Telugu Brahmin who got converted to Christianity. The modern day theologian and westen American Philosopher Vishal Mangalwadi is also a Brahmin. Im not sure what Bobby Jindal is all about.

I'm not sure if they are wooed in by Money

 

[palindrome]

I'm not sure if they are wooed in by Money

Are they taken in by doctrinal differences then? If yes, then which are those differences?

 

[sapr333]

The caste problem is no longer religious. It is a social problem which has affected the Dalits who have converted to Christianity also..

Partly I agree with you!!

But all the religions other than hinduism, has strong scriptural basis to condemn the caste division by birth (Lets keep aside Discrimination). And the sadest point is, this caste identity is a must in every religious ritual, be it Namkarna or in death.. That's something which becomes difficult to bail out...

In this context, though there are some issues of discrimination in other religions also, but centrally, they all condemn and their scriptures empower them to condemn it too.

 

[sapr333]

Are they taken in by doctrinal differences then? If yes, then which are those differences?

To Start with...

1) "KARMA'.. Atonement.. It violates the nature of God's Absolute Justice.. It lacks clarity

2) Un-holy acts of god's.

3) Un wanted rituals.

I think,conversional covictions are happening in these lines..

 

[palindrome]

To Start with...

1) "KARMA'.. Atonement.. It violates the nature of God's Absolute Justice.. It lacks clarity

2) Un-holy acts of god's.

3) Un wanted rituals.

I think,conversional covictions are happening in these lines..

1) Karma: appears to be grossly misunderstood and misapplied by some sections. Not sure the old world believed in fatalism of the resigned kind. Monks seem to be able to explain it with great clarity. But some sections of the mainstream society believe in the opposite of what the monks say. Since each one has their own interpretation, it might come across as lacking clarity as a whole...some sections believe a man asked to be an untouchable. Then they get angry when they are treated badly themselves and believe they do not deserve it..so what goes..

2) The acts were written by men and then ascribed to the name of a God (or someone of a God's namesake). Some soul searching is required for why they did it.

3) Right from conception to after death appeasment ones, there are so many rituals...i suppose they feel nice (??). Then there are rituals which i'd like to think that a sane person cannot relate to, like breaking a coconut on the head. But then however, its each one's belief to himself...so what goes, no one can say...For some ppl on their own, they are not into rituals, they cannot relate to it, but not sure anyone can judge what goes for others...there are so many ppl who think of rituals as "now that i have done this, it will all be okay" - its sorta therapeutic for them..it works for some too.

 

[palindrome]

Partly I agree with you!!

But all the religions other than hinduism, has strong scriptural basis to condemn the caste division by birth (Lets keep aside Discrimination). And the sadest point is, this caste identity is a must in every religious ritual, be it Namkarna or in death.. That's something which becomes difficult to bail out...

In this context, though there are some issues of discrimination in other religions also, but centrally, they all condemn and their scriptures empower them to condemn it too.

some rambling here....

i tend to disagree with the above.

natural sanskritization has always been happening.

the ones that rake up and make an issue out of it are those that do it for politicial gains or missionary activities...

have never felt caste is anything negative at all except in the politicial context ...it kinda tends to make one feel suffocated in the political context...

in everyday life i wud think this way -- if some one is able to fulfill a role and do what it takes, why confuse the roles...everything has perhaps come to exist for a reason...i guess everyone has judged enough, and i have been as rude and crude as possible enuf...the point now is merely seeking solutions on how to handle the political context...honestly, i don't think abyone wud bother abt caste as long as they have roti, kapda, makan and a decent living...the whole point is there is a bunch of exploiters called politicians that do not really allow that to happen, and keep using caste as a politicial weapon...so what happens? any solutions?

if am sounding confused, it means i am confused...and very confused.

 

[sapr333]

Palindrome,

Dont feel hurt. But your answer lacks clarity. This is what I often said earlier, 99% doesnt know any thing about Hinduism. When debated/Check mated, rush to take shelter under 'Way of Life'.. This is where rest of the religions, including Buddhists excel.

Hinduism is a great philosophy!! A general statement. But when questioned logically about philosophical aspects of 'Karma', I havent still got a convincing answer..But if you google modern philosophers debate, they are so higly developed. And these kind of confusion/dilemma, makes hindus to shift towards other religion..

If you are interested to debate on the 4 points, we can give it a try.

Unholy acts of gods: I think you mistook the point.. What others refering Krishna Leela/gods doing rape/cutting nose/etc etc.

Regarding rituals...Yes I agree with you..Rituals too can be a mode of worshipping God.. May be hinduism is too much in to that..Thats what the converts say.

Regarding caste, its not right to blame it on politicians. Its was a 2 millenia issue, and I agree there was never an issue in the ancient society, cos, the sutras accepted the dicrimination as a sanctified curse of KARMA, and top varna enjoyed is as a privilege granted by his good Karma of past... Sutras also believed strongly in hiduism, and accepted it humbly as a part of their life. But now, they realised and want liberation.. In this context also, I can say, KARMA concept could be wrong!!

 

[palindrome]

sapr33,

no am not hurt at all...

these days am wandering so much in wilderness, am aware of being scatter brained, lacking clarity and being highly ambivalent...am also frustrated that whatever is this way of life it does not seem to offer plausible explanations for certain things...

but then i think of it this way..lets say, by chance if ever someone were to prove to me with every evidence in this world that ramayana and mahabharta never took place, wud i stop considering rama and krishna as my gods...no, i don't think so..my faith is not that shallow...so how and why shd it matter that some things are not fitting in as per socially acceptable standards in the current times...i'd rather be content with what i can find and cannot find, within and without...

 

[malgova.mango]

sapr - sir please read "how varna caste system....."

chirrarivai kondu perraivai allaka mudiyathu....

 

[malgova.mango]

birth is also a factor preconditioned by karma vasana of purva jenma.

There is a vast difference between our scriptures and others.

Other Scriptures don't believe in soul having a re-birth as human - to them it is either HELL or HEAVEN

and remember HELL and HEAVEN are permanent for them.

So one is doomed in HELL forever or enjoy HEAVEN forever meaning PERMANENTLY.

For them KARMA means like "ajflHJ;L" meaningless - not because they understood what is said and began to question the rationality - it is because to them the concept is like a proverbial "blind man describing an ELEPHANT"

 

[sapr333]

sapr33,

>>>.am also frustrated that whatever is this way of life it does not seem to offer plausible explanations for certain things...

>>> by chance if ever someone were to prove to me with every evidence in this world that ramayana and mahabharta never took place, wud i stop considering rama and krishna as my gods...

I enjoyed that vocab, PLAUSIBLE.. rightly said.. There were times when Romans/Greeks had some concept of God, and comparing it with Hinduism,its nothing of that time line. All humans are on the pursuit of 'Truth about God' and all want to know 'who that God is all about'.. All we need to keep our eyes open, critically examine what all religions talk about, and logically take a decision to say, that, a particular religion (fairly well) answers all our quests..For this we need to have a higher amount of religious freedom..Lets evaluate every thing..Lets read all religious texts and philosophies. Lets allow everyone to choose their path of chose towards reaching God.. Do you agree with me on this..

Secondly, 'The concept of God just doest lie with proving/disproving Ramayana. A scientist/Archeologist would talk something totally against it. A philosopher would say, yes, Ramayana has some good philosophies, but not applicable in this modern day. A non-hindu theologian would say, yes, please take it as a mythology, after all mythology also helps us to set our life moral standards, but please evaluate, if you are getting a better moral standards out of that mythology.. it goes on...

What we need to critically examine is.... Could this be right, in all accounts.. Could varna doctrine be right in terms of Human-Rights... Can I pay back the wrong I did to the one whoom I killed, just by running an orphanage or doing good deeds.. Can I get back his life,whoom Ive killed..

Analayse all these questions keeping in mind, God is the same, and he also commands some of the natures like 'Absolute Holiness, Absolute Justice, Absolute Love''' .. Im sure you would agree to this point of 'Nature of God"..

 

[malgova.mango]

to compare our Scripture with Others is like comparing - Milk and Toddy.

In Kali people because of punya ksheenam only like Toddy - what to do?

 

[sapr333]

sapr - sir please read "how varna caste system....."
chirrarivai kondu perraivai allaka mudiyathu....

The future generation are not going to live by 'Blind Faith'' They want to explore.. If they couldnt get the proof of Rama/Krishna's living, still they want Metaphysical/Theosophical answers for their teachings in accordance with the current life.

They gonna ask you.. Look dad.. Whats wrong if I steal a pocket money out of your wallet...cos Krishna did too, with butter.. And Rahul Mahajan says in press,after coming out of court on drug peddling charges and divorce'''' I have dropped my Krishan image' and gonna live a good life in future..


Pls ponder !!!!

 

[malgova.mango]

nah it is like comparing Truth and Falsehood

 

[palindrome]

Palindrome,

Dont feel hurt. But your answer lacks clarity. This is what I often said earlier, 99% doesnt know any thing about Hinduism. When debated/Check mated, rush to take shelter under 'Way of Life'.. This is where rest of the religions, including Buddhists excel.

Hinduism is a great philosophy!! A general statement. But when questioned logically about philosophical aspects of 'Karma', I havent still got a convincing answer..But if you google modern philosophers debate, they are so higly developed. And these kind of confusion/dilemma, makes hindus to shift towards other religion..

If you are interested to debate on the 4 points, we can give it a try.

Unholy acts of gods: I think you mistook the point.. What others refering Krishna Leela/gods doing rape/cutting nose/etc etc.

Regarding rituals...Yes I agree with you..Rituals too can be a mode of worshipping God.. May be hinduism is too much in to that..Thats what the converts say.

Regarding caste, its not right to blame it on politicians. Its was a 2 millenia issue, and I agree there was never an issue in the ancient society, cos, the sutras accepted the dicrimination as a sanctified curse of KARMA, and top varna enjoyed is as a privilege granted by his good Karma of past... Sutras also believed strongly in hiduism, and accepted it humbly as a part of their life. But now, they realised and want liberation.. In this context also, I can say, KARMA concept could be wrong!!

Sapr333,

Reading b/w the lines in your above post, i have a strange feeling that you too speak like a missionary....the idea that Karma "violates the nature of God's Absolute Justice" is a very christian idea. May i know what is "God's Absolute Justice" ?

I believe if a small negligible minority of various communities choose to follow a heartless kind of the concept of karma, then the christian church has entirely murdered "karma".

And how wud anyone say 99% hindus do not know about hindusim. Has hindu faith been surviving on 1% practioners then? :hand:

Again reg Karma, if there is one aspect of hindu faith where i have no doubts upon then it is this part. I have met monks for whom karma over births has come to fructition. My previous guru took jeeva samadhi just like Shri Raghavendra Swamy.

I wud find it very amusing if someone were to convert, he wud do so because he cannot find answers for things like karma within the hindu schools of thot.

And what are the unholy acts of Gods? How aby unholy acts of prophets, both in christian and the islamic schools of thot? They say making comparisons is bad....but if i were to take a chance and make one single comparison, then i'd say hinduism is the better of other religions, both as a faith and as a doctrinal religion.

Reg rituals, people always have a choice - take it or leave it. I do not relate to it so i leave it. My family members relate to it, so much that it works for them, so they continue to follow it. Its each one's wish.

Reg caste, i find it very right to blame politicians. Am curious, why do you say its a 2 millenia issue? Do you think the current caste system existed 2000 years ago? If yes, then am very sorry, you do not know hindu history.

Let me give you just one example: Valmiki was a sage. His clansmen came to be known as the Valmiki tribe. Valmiki literally means an anthill, but in the older caste system, a gothra was a famous ancestor, or something that wud help identify a person. An entire group wud be tutored or guided by one spiritual perceptor and in time that group wud follow the same customs / teachings and become a caste of sorts with sub-divisions often based on an occupation group with a common guru as their identity / gothra and / or their occupation as their identity / gothra as well. But now these 'castes" are considered tribes or part of the 'tribal system' not 'caste system'..

Bharadwaja was Valmiki's student. It is very much possible that Bharadwaja was also from the same Valmiki tribe. But in the present time, those of Bharadwaja gotra are considered upper castes and those of Valmiki tribe are considered low caste. How did that happen? Did this diff exist since 2000 years? Are you going to blame brahmins for it? the kshatriyas? or dalits? Are they self appointed dalits, kshatriyas and brahmins? I used to wonder how come kapus have bharadwaja gothra, until i was told that it might just mean a valmiki tribe input...

And finally may i ask what is this "liberation" that anyone wants when everyone is already living in a liberated world ? The only liberation i want is from the current breed of politicians. As for the spiritual side of life, again, i'd rather be content with what i can find and cannot find, within and without...

 

[malgova.mango]

did you read ?