Is the Community digging its own grave

vgane · Jul 18, 2013

A very famous residential tower in T.Nagar housing 32 flats...Was constructed 2 decades back..90% of residents of this tower are Tambrahms.

8 Brahmin girls & boys got married from this Tower in the last 5-6 years...Only 3 are from the community..Rest are inter caste...

Is this a isolated incident..I do not feel so..The tower represented the microcosm of Tambrahms..You had Iyers, Iyengars from various parts of Tamil Nadu..Both the rich and middle class were part of the social milieu

In my own family of relatives out of 10 marriages in last 10 years 4 are inter caste/ Inter religion..If I consider my brother in law's family out of 5 marriages 4 are IC/IR and one is with Telugu brahmin

What is spoken in hushed tones has now become a social reality...Is it a revolution of sorts which even social reformers found it difficult to execute which our children are now raring to do , breaking all shackles and attempting something that was unthinkable a few decades ago

Am I hurt by this...Yes, definitely as I was brought up in a traditional Brahminical way..I cannot forget my cultural moorings..Cannot think of this being good for our society which is already facing lots of challenges in the modern world

I have attempted to evaluate using simple mathematics the Tambrahm population 60 years from now if this situation continues...
From current population levels we will reduce drastically to a few lacs in next 50 years...by next 80 years it will be just a lac...

If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

The above is not an accurate prediction...May be one can refine it with more accurate assumptions

View attachment Population Trend.bmp

C RAVI · Jul 18, 2013

renuka · Jul 18, 2013

vgane said:
If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

View attachment 2903

Dear Sir,

Fear not..no soul in this world can become extinct....let me reassure you with a verse from the Gita:

Text 20

na jayate mriyate va kadacin
nayam bhutva bhavita va na bhuyah
ajo nityah sasvato ’yam purano
na hanyate hanyamane sarire

Translation

For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

auh · Jul 18, 2013

vgane said:
What is spoken in hushed tones has now become a social reality...Is it a revolution of sorts which even social reformers found it difficult to execute which our children are now raring to do , breaking all shackles and attempting something that was unthinkable a few decades ago

If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

I think this phenomenon is also like the big bang (it is only my speculation here), now expanding its horizons, and perhaps when the limitless limit has been reached, it might contract.

But, seriously, does this not reflect the desire of the majority?

We have to plod along... rather drift along like leaves in the wind.

sangom · Jul 18, 2013

vgane said:
A very famous residential tower in T.Nagar housing 32 flats...Was constructed 2 decades back..90% of residents of this tower are Tambrahms.

8 Brahmin girls & boys got married from this Tower in the last 5-6 years...Only 3 are from the community..Rest are inter caste...

Is this a isolated incident..I do not feel so..The tower represented the microcosm of Tambrahms..You had Iyers, Iyengars from various parts of Tamil Nadu..Both the rich and middle class were part of the social milieu

In my own family of relatives out of 10 marriages in last 10 years 4 are inter caste/ Inter religion..If I consider my brother in law's family out of 5 marriages 4 are IC/IR and one is with Telugu brahmin

What is spoken in hushed tones has now become a social reality...Is it a revolution of sorts which even social reformers found it difficult to execute which our children are now raring to do , breaking all shackles and attempting something that was unthinkable a few decades ago

Am I hurt by this...Yes, definitely as I was brought up in a traditional Brahminical way..I cannot forget my cultural moorings..Cannot think of this being good for our society which is already facing lots of challenges in the modern world

I have attempted to evaluate using simple mathematics the Tambrahm population 60 years from now if this situation continues...
From current population levels we will reduce drastically to a few lacs in next 50 years...by next 80 years it will be just a lac...

If the rate of IC/IR increases then the community's demise might happen earlier...Am I exaggerating...Am I a doomsayer?

The above is not an accurate prediction...May be one can refine it with more accurate assumptions

View attachment 2903

Dear Shri Gane,

I can understand your anguish, myself being a 73 years old tabra.

But the happenings in one high-rise tower in T. Nagar need not and may not, reflect the real trend and rates of social change taking place in our tabra community as a whole, imho. Secondly, I have been observing that even though some of our boys and a larger percentage of our (tabra) girls tend to marry outside our caste, religion, etc., nowadays, it so happens that when the first flush of all those gloriously viewed love, kaadal, etc., wane off, there is always an attempt to reinstall the off-springs born out of such IC/IR wedlock back into the tabra fold itself wherever such a step is possible. For example, boys born to brahmin - non brahmin marriages are almost invariably given the upanayana samskaara (even though I & many others of the old generation still wonder how, if the father is NB, the NB father is placed in such a vaideeki samskaara, who gives the gaayatree upadesa to the boy, etc.).

Even in a few cases of tabra girls who married christian boys, the children have been given hindu names and, most probably, these boys will also be given upanayanam and made into tabras when the time comes.

All these developments show, or at least it seems to me so, that the label "brahmin" has still some undefined and mysterious attraction.

Hence, after some decades we may have more "tamil brahmins" than your projected numbers, on this earth, but they may not hold even the slightest resemblance to any one of us in terms of their belief system, daily routine, knowledge of the brahmanical scriptures, cultural ethos, etc. But, looking back honestly, don't most of us tabras of today stand in the same position vis-a-vis our forefathers of, say, 7 or 8 generations ago?

Hence let us not lose our hope. What is required is that our beliefs and culture change to suit the changing needs of the times.

C RAVI · Jul 18, 2013

Anand Manohar · Jul 18, 2013

Dear Dr Renu

Your post # 3.

You seem to have taken the literal meaning and done some word splitting. "Mental Migration" is a
process that takes place in every evolving society. The subject deals specifically with ethno-culturally
enclosed societies and issues of diaspora communities wherein "Participation Therapies" have been recommended
to address the issues concerned. It is a 'process' - pretty abstract.

That is like the word 'Slumdog' that conveys quite a contrary meaning if split.

Seclusions & Inclusions form part of the Participation Therapy - eg., the discarding of racial superiority
or the abolishing of slave trade can be attributed to "Mental Migration".

As Sangom says, one street / residential complex / one family might be too small a specimen to observe
and make a generalization out of. But I think Ravi has utilized the correct term and in the correct context.

Yay Yem

sravna · Jul 18, 2013

What is actually happening in today's world is that importance of culture is diminishing and only that which is in consonance with current thinking is becoming acceptable. Brahmins who are seen as the last bastions of Indian culture, are beginning to witness rebellion by their own young generation.

As someone who has learnt to appreciate the profundity in our values, I am indeed saddened as Shri.Vgane is by all these developments. I do not intend to rake up a sensitive issue but suffice to say that I agree with the OP.

Anand Manohar · Jul 18, 2013

Aw, Come on Ravi,

Nobody really cares whether you wear a komanam or not. I don't, and that fact shouldn't bother any of the ladies.

Now, let's get a move-on.

Yay Yem

auh · Jul 18, 2013

I do not think that the OP expresses concern over a single building being the case in study. This line is the real thrust of the post

Is this a isolated incident..I do not feel so..The tower represented the microcosm of Tambrahms..You had Iyers, Iyengars from various parts of Tamil Nadu..Both the rich and middle class were part of the social milieu

And actually, this is a reality in every brahmin stronghold. Whatever be the reasons, the ratio of IC/IR seems to be increasing.

As to where it would lead, we can, at best, speculate.

kunjuppu · Jul 18, 2013

While no one can predict the future, based on current trends, I tend to agree with OP re the conclusions, though not the angst.

Many of us have many many reasons, why we have discarded many of the handmedown rituals or values, and each has his or her own reasons. I can list a few here, which I see as relevant to me. Some may have the same reasons, and some may have others.

- Exclusively casteist and I don’t mean it in a negative way. I would like to practice a version of Hinduism, which is universal practice to all our brethren. We can have plurality of practices, but not exclusivity.
- Irrelevance of many rituals
- Cumbersomeness of rituals
- Loneliness of rituals; prefer to attend group bhajans or discourses or group prayers regularly than sit alone at home
- Acute sense of discomfort with certain texts like purusha shukta, which appears, to me atleast, put Brahmins as ‘superior’; unable to accept that
- Superstitious adherence to horoscope and such, inspite of a high failure rate

Organized education of our values for Hindus as a whole including classes for the children at various ages and levels, i think, is one good way to build a sold foundation of our faith. it is something that we can learn from abrahamic religions. again, this too, is a personal opinion.

I have discarded only stuff that I cannot accept from a moral viewpoint mostly. Stuff I like are our bhajans, temples, my palghat cuisine, and I would imagine, even a century from now, all of these would exist, though the future of palghat cuisine may be questioned, considered the far and wide diaspora, and the internationalization of food habits (for even vegetarians).

The very ‘values’ that some people regret passing, including inter caste marriages, I welcome. I would also welcome new blood into our community, and our willingness to accept IR/IC marriages, and educate our children, and encourage them, to bring up their progeny in the best of our Hindu faith, sans the narrowness of casteism. Since we don’t do this, the children seek asylum in other faiths, which I think is a shame.

Caste, while playing a deciding role in India, is apparently a loose fitting cloth, cast away without any effort, for the 2nd generation Indian Canadians. All of tambram families that I know, barring 4 or 5, their children have married outside of caste. The parents who might have reservations in india, appear to have no such qualms here. If caste was all that important, they would have behaved differently I think. No?

Maybe its time, that we as a community took the lead, and have arranged inter caste marriages. We have nothing to lose. And lots to gain, I think.

sangom · Jul 18, 2013

sravna said:
What is actually happening in today's world is that importance of culture is diminishing and only that which is in consonance with current thinking is becoming acceptable. Brahmins who are seen as the last bastions of Indian culture, are beginning to witness rebellion by their own young generation.

As someone who has learnt to appreciate the profundity in our values, I am indeed saddened as Shri.Vgane is by all these developments. I do not intend to rake up a sensitive issue but suffice to say that I agree with the OP.

Dear Shri Sravna,

I think it is obviously erroneous to delude ourselves thinking that "we" (you need not include me or people like myself under this we, if you so like it.) are the "last bastions of Indian culture" nor even as the last bastions of brahmin culture. Indian culture will continue to exist as long as Indians exist; as for brahminism, as I wrote in my post # 5 above, we tabras do not have any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generations or more in terms of brahmin habits, culture, ethos etc.; it is continuously changing with time.

C RAVI · Jul 18, 2013

sangom said:
Dear Shri Sravna,

I think it is obviously erroneous to delude ourselves thinking that "we" (you need not include me or people like myself under this we, if you so like it.) are the "last bastions of Indian culture" nor even as the last bastions of brahmin culture. Indian culture will continue to exist as long as Indians exist; as for brahminism, as I wrote in my post # 5 above, we tabras do not have any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generations or more in terms of brahmin habits, culture, ethos etc.; it is continuously changing with time.

With reference to the highlighted statement -

So, do you mean to say that such a sea change in the practices of todays Brahmins (not having any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generation) is no different than Brahmins getting into IC/IR marriages?

Nara · Jul 18, 2013

C RAVI said:
....Two members have agreed with your above message. Can I expect the same agreement

Come on Ravi, AM only asked you to move on. We all get called names and worse, haven't you heard stick and stones may break your bones ... The women have since apologized. You will find less and less agreement with you if you keep bringing it back.

best wishes ...

C RAVI · Jul 18, 2013

sangom · Jul 18, 2013

C RAVI said:
With reference to the highlighted statement -

So, do you mean to say that such a sea change in the practices of todays Brahmins (not having any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generation) is no different than Brahmins getting into IC/IR marriages?

Dear Shri Ravi,

I know you are much younger to me. So, you do not probably know how much the tabras valued their sub-caste pride and purity not very long ago. After Independence and the loud message that caste is not to be allowed its old status, we tabras slowly started accepting inter-sub-caste alliances. (There were sub-sub-caste groupings also in some, like Brahaccharanam and these sub-sub-castes also did not intermarry up to one time!!)

There have been love marriages even 50 or 60 years ago among tabras. But these were far and few between and invariably, the "love" part was meticulously kept under wraps and to the outside world such marriages became inter-sub-caste marriages sanctioned by the elders, vaideekans, mutts and so on — in short, a thing which became normal in tabra society. But even today we find some odd matrimonials specifying the sub-caste/s acceptable.

Hence, I prefer to view the IC marriages as an extension of the sub-caste abolition; but IC is one jump across or above the fence, but even in such IC marriages, there is a definite preference or attraction in bringing up their children with the 'Brahmin' label. The exceptions are hindu-muslim marriages.

sangom · Jul 18, 2013

C RAVI said:
Sir,

I don't care who agree with me or not as long as I am sure if I am wrong or not.

My question is, can I too behave in such a nasty manner, seek apology if expressed objection and have my posts justified and left in tact as it is with out moderation using red ink, by the moderators?

Can I expect not a single member/moderator to take offence on me except by the effected party/lady, just like what happened with me? In fact, one member encouraged the lady to not to feel guilty and be more tough to face the objection. To boldly face such objections without feeling ashamed and guilty, LOL!!!

Ironically you people talk about gender equality in this forum with all your fair sense and feel proud of such kind of Pudhumai Penns. LOL!!

Ravi,

As you know very well, there are more than enough வழியற பேர்வழிகள் (people who get swept off their feet, in a sense) here who will support even feminine-sounding monikers. The solution to this problem is for you also to assume a similar sounding log-in name. Then and only then can you ask for this equal treatment and once you do that you won't have to ask even - it will flow naturally!!

Vaagmi · Jul 18, 2013

I am coming across this lament frequently in this forum. If only people do not stop with stating the problem how nice and useful will it be. Let us take the IC marriages first. We will go to IR marriages later. If we can analyse what exactly is wrong with these marriages, the logical next step will be to decide whether these marriages are ok or not for the community. If they are not ok then what do we do? How do we prevent them from happening. They do happen is the given situation. How do we get over this is the logical action that would be called for. If our discussion is going to throw up a view acceptable to majority and if it is going to be that the IC marriages are perfectly ok and are desirable (as Mr.Kunjuppu appears to be arguing here)then how to encourage them will have to be discussed. Logically we will also have to discuss how to prevent marrying within the community so that the glorious IC marriages become the rule(and not the exception that they are now)for the brahmin community. I would request members to present what is right and what is wrong with IC marriages first so that the issue can be analysed thoroughly. Any takers?

kunjuppu · Jul 18, 2013

Vaagmi said:
... If we can analyse what exactly is wrong with these marriages, the logical next step will be to decide whether these marriages are ok or not for the community. If they are not ok then what do we do? How do we prevent them from happening. They do happen is the given situation. How do we get over this is the logical action that would be called for. If our discussion is going to throw up a view acceptable to majority and if it is going to be that the IC marriages are perfectly ok and are desirable (as Mr.Kunjuppu appears to be arguing here)then how to encourage them will have to be discussed. Logically we will also have to discuss how to prevent marrying within the community so that the glorious IC marriages become the rule(and not the exception that they are now)for the brahmin community. I would request members to present what is right and what is wrong with IC marriages first so that the issue can be analysed thoroughly. Any takers?

while we are discussing the pros and cons of IC marriages, can we go one step further, and discuss the impact too/

for example: food - chances are the IC, one partner is non veg. if so, can it be managed? ie the non veg spouse cooks separately at home or only eats out? what i am looking for, is some thinking through..instead of plain yes/no mode. i think all of us will benefit, both sides, because it will give some clarity to an idea often bandied about here.

re IR marriage, i agree that it is a different kettle to boil. another thread. sometime later. maybe. who knows!!

prasad1 · Jul 18, 2013

auh said:
I do not think that the OP expresses concern over a single building being the case in study. This line is the real thrust of the postAnd actually, this is a reality in every brahmin stronghold. Whatever be the reasons, the ratio of IC/IR seems to be increasing.

As to where it would lead, we can, at best, speculate.

That is correct observation of facts. May be right or wrong depending on your position.

vgane · Jul 18, 2013

kunjuppu said:
While no one can predict the future, based on current trends, I tend to agree with OP re the conclusions, though not the angst.

Many of us have many many reasons, why we have discarded many of the handmedown rituals or values, and each has his or her own reasons. I can list a few here, which I see as relevant to me. Some may have the same reasons, and some may have others.

- Exclusively casteist and I don’t mean it in a negative way. I would like to practice a version of Hinduism, which is universal practice to all our brethren. We can have plurality of practices, but not exclusivity.
- Irrelevance of many rituals
- Cumbersomeness of rituals
- Loneliness of rituals; prefer to attend group bhajans or discourses or group prayers regularly than sit alone at home
- Acute sense of discomfort with certain texts like purusha shukta, which appears, to me atleast, put Brahmins as ‘superior’; unable to accept that
- Superstitious adherence to horoscope and such, inspite of a high failure rate

Organized education of our values for Hindus as a whole including classes for the children at various ages and levels, i think, is one good way to build a sold foundation of our faith. it is something that we can learn from abrahamic religions. again, this too, is a personal opinion.

I have discarded only stuff that I cannot accept from a moral viewpoint mostly. Stuff I like are our bhajans, temples, my palghat cuisine, and I would imagine, even a century from now, all of these would exist, though the future of palghat cuisine may be questioned, considered the far and wide diaspora, and the internationalization of food habits (for even vegetarians).

The very ‘values’ that some people regret passing, including inter caste marriages, I welcome. I would also welcome new blood into our community, and our willingness to accept IR/IC marriages, and educate our children, and encourage them, to bring up their progeny in the best of our Hindu faith, sans the narrowness of casteism. Since we don’t do this, the children seek asylum in other faiths, which I think is a shame.

Caste, while playing a deciding role in India, is apparently a loose fitting cloth, cast away without any effort, for the 2nd generation Indian Canadians. All of tambram families that I know, barring 4 or 5, their children have married outside of caste. The parents who might have reservations in india, appear to have no such qualms here. If caste was all that important, they would have behaved differently I think. No?

Maybe its time, that we as a community took the lead, and have arranged inter caste marriages. We have nothing to lose. And lots to gain, I think.

Sir,

You have given up as you are unable to tackle it as a PIO in foreign shores...Do we ask the TamBrahms in India to give up and face this scourge lying down...The fight is not you Vs me..We require 2 hands to clap..Our children are equally responsible for this

We need to face this and institute controls or let the community be allowed to perish in the name of IC/IR

You have said that we should arrange IC....It is like being out of the frying pan into the fire

I don't think Tam Brahms are ready for it..

Why is this problem only in Tamil Nadu?

In the North Brahmins are not facing this problem...IC is happening (few & far) in North but it is less compared to here

I think the elders should get together to resolve this..This should include the Acharyas also

Nara · Jul 18, 2013

C RAVI said:
...Ironically you people talk about gender equality in this forum with all your fair sense and feel proud of such kind of Pudhumai Penns. LOL!!

Ravi, I would feel exactly the same way even if your "komanam" tormentors have been men instead of women.

I don't understand why you think the answer to what you see as objectionable is to retaliate in the same way. I understand you are upset your post #2 was moderated, but this happens to all of us one time or another, women members included. I feel there is no cause to reopen a closed issue, but if you think it is appropriate, so be it.

BTW, I have a feeling Sangom is playing with you with his suggestion to take on female sounding moniker, because I don't think he believes in such nonsense as there are enough among those who argue for gender equality who will "support even feminine-sounding monikers." But then, who knows, I am known for getting these kind of things wrong.

best wishes dear Ravi

sravna · Jul 18, 2013

Vaagmi said:
I am coming across this lament frequently in this forum. If only people do not stop with stating the problem how nice and useful will it be. Let us take the IC marriages first. We will go to IR marriages later. If we can analyse what exactly is wrong with these marriages, the logical next step will be to decide whether these marriages are ok or not for the community. If they are not ok then what do we do? How do we prevent them from happening. They do happen is the given situation. How do we get over this is the logical action that would be called for. If our discussion is going to throw up a view acceptable to majority and if it is going to be that the IC marriages are perfectly ok and are desirable (as Mr.Kunjuppu appears to be arguing here)then how to encourage them will have to be discussed. Logically we will also have to discuss how to prevent marrying within the community so that the glorious IC marriages become the rule(and not the exception that they are now)for the brahmin community. I would request members to present what is right and what is wrong with IC marriages first so that the issue can be analysed thoroughly. Any takers?

Let me start with the disclaimer that I am not being discriminatory against any group with my following argument.

Our ancient people did a wonderful job in identifying that the extent of spiritual progress may vary among people. They postulated that marrying should happen between a man and a woman who are at the same level of spiritual progress, but being a marriage between a man and a woman they are supposed to complement each other and that is how the marriage helps them in their spiritual journey. Marrying across levels should not happen because you should consummate the progress at the lower level first.

The above I think is the basis for marriages being advocated only within the groups

Please note spiritual progress may not imply either superiority or inferiority of one human over the other and there are plentiful people who do not care for spirituality.

The above is only my argument against IC marriages based on my understanding of the scriptures.

Nara · Jul 18, 2013

vgane said:
.....
We need to face this and institute controls or let the community be allowed to perish in the name of IC/IR

[snip]

I think the elders should get together to resolve this..This should include the Acharyas also

Among the reasons for this "scourge" are (i) city life in which young girls and boys of different castes are in close proximity, (ii) modern education that encourages children to question the old traditional customs, (iii) educating girls encourages them to be independent and bold, and (iv) TV and cinema are almost exclusively about girl meeting boy, falling in love and marrying.

I think there is only one solution for reversing this "scourge" of increasing IC/IR marriages. The way to avoid IC/IR marriage is to move back to the native village, send boys to Veda Patashala, keep girls at home and never let them go out alone, no TV at home, no cinema, etc.

I know, all this is hard but if there is a strong will to solve this "scourge" then one must bite the bullet and get it done.

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

vgane · Jul 18, 2013

Nara said:
Among the reasons for this "scourge" are (i) city life in which young girls and boys of different castes are in close proximity, (ii) modern education that encourages children to question the old traditional customs, (iii) educating girls encourages them to be independent and bold, and (iv) TV and cinema are almost exclusively about girl meeting boy, falling in love and marrying.

I think there is only one solution for reversing this "scourge" of increasing IC/IR marriages. The way to avoid IC/IR marriage is to move back to the native village, send boys to Veda Patashala, keep girls at home and never let them go out alone, no TV at home, no cinema, etc.

I know, all this is hard but if there is a strong will to solve this "scourge" then one must bite the bullet and get it done.

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

With all the given constraints how do we solve the problem...It does not mean going back to the roots

Let Brahmins come together and say that we will not send our kids to any tom dick and harry school...Let us certify the schools where Brahmin values will be appreciated..

Let us educate the girls & provide modern education, but at the same time let us inculcate moral education too

Any why not a pledge that we administer to our kids to keep them on the right path?

Also we are not talking of caste purity..I want our community to live its life with dignity and not be hounded by pseudo secularists in the garb of IC & IR

Will you look with glee that your community is getting ethnically cleansed by this process?

Is the Community digging its own grave

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