Is the Community digging its own grave

[prasad1]

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Dear Shri Sravna,

I think it is obviously erroneous to delude ourselves thinking that "we" (you need not include me or people like myself under this we, if you so like it.) are the "last bastions of Indian culture" nor even as the last bastions of brahmin culture. Indian culture will continue to exist as long as Indians exist; as for brahminism, as I wrote in my post # 5 above, we tabras do not have any similarity with our forefathers of 7 or 8 generations or more in terms of brahmin habits, culture, ethos etc.; it is continuously changing with time.

Bravo, a very practical observation.

 

[sangom]

. . .
BTW, I have a feeling Sangom is playing with you with his suggestion to take on female sounding moniker, because I don't think he believes in such nonsense as there are enough among those who argue for gender equality who will "support even feminine-sounding monikers." But then, who knows, I am known for getting these kind of things wrong.

best wishes dear Ravi

Dear Shri Nara,

Let me say that I am not at all clever enough to play with another member; what best I can do is to write whatever I really feel, but then, my language is wanting in many cases and that creates confusion.

In the above case, whatever I wrote was truly reflecting my feeling or observations or both. Recently it happened in Kerala that a minister complained that his wife had attacked him physically and also produced some evidence also; promptly the next day, the minister's wife lodged a written complaint with the police stating that the minister had physically attacked her and she also produced evidence. The police had to register a non-bailable offence against the minister and he had to resign his minister's post, and thanks to some mediators the wife withdrew the complaint after getting properties worth more than two crores in her name and the children's name jointly.

In a similar fashion in this forum all sorts of low level posts are allowed unopposed but posts by Ravi gets edited. What I would advise Ravi is to understand that in this world some are always more equal. For more peace of mind he may listen to the old song by Chandrababu, பொறந்தாலும் ஆம்பளையா பொறக்கக் கூடாது அய்யா பொறந்து விட்டா பொம்பளைய நெனைக்கக் கூடாது ...

 

[prasad1]

Let me start with the disclaimer that I am not being discriminatory against any group with my following argument.

Our ancient people did a wonderful job in identifying that the extent of spiritual progress may vary among people. They postulated that marrying should happen between a man and a woman who are at the same level of spiritual progress, but being a marriage between a man and a woman they are supposed to complement each other and that is how the marriage helps them in their spiritual journey. Marrying across levels should not happen because you should consummate the progress at the lower level first.

The above I think is the basis for marriages being advocated only within the groups

Please note spiritual progress may not imply either superiority or inferiority of one human over the other and there are plentiful people who do not care for spirituality.

The above is only my argument against IC marriages based on my understanding of the scriptures.

Who's reading of what scriptures?
Can you name a scripture in its original form that is followed to the letter today?
Culture changes all the time. You have decided to fix a period, that is personal to you and you alone. I bet even your personal values have changed over period of time. So lamenting the loss of that moment is fruitless. It is like catching the floating soap bubbles, They look dazzling at that time but are impermanent.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Nara,

Let me say that I am not at all clever enough to play with another member; what best I can do is to write whatever I really feel, but then, my language is wanting in many cases and that creates confusion.

In the above case, whatever I wrote was truly reflecting my feeling or observations or both. Recently it happened in Kerala that a minister complained that his wife had attacked him physically and also produced some evidence also; promptly the next day, the minister's wife lodged a written complaint with the police stating that the minister had physically attacked her and she also produced evidence. The police had to register a non-bailable offence against the minister and he had to resign his minister's post, and thanks to some mediators the wife withdrew the complaint after getting properties worth more than two crores in her name and the children's name jointly.

In a similar fashion in this forum all sorts of low level posts are allowed unopposed but posts by Ravi gets edited. What I would advise Ravi is to understand that in this world some are always more equal. For more peace of mind he may listen to the old song by Chandrababu, பொறந்தாலும் ஆம்பளையா பொறக்கக் கூடாது அய்யா பொறந்து விட்டா பொம்பளைய நெனைக்கக் கூடாது ...

Do you really mean it? Just because you share his hatred of NRI from west, you do not have to prop him up. The moderation is arbitrary at best, and cuts both ways. I too feel that comments from some member is tolerated, sometimes.

 

[sangom]

Among the reasons for this "scourge" are (i) city life in which young girls and boys of different castes are in close proximity, (ii) modern education that encourages children to question the old traditional customs, (iii) educating girls encourages them to be independent and bold, and (iv) TV and cinema are almost exclusively about girl meeting boy, falling in love and marrying.

I think there is only one solution for reversing this "scourge" of increasing IC/IR marriages. The way to avoid IC/IR marriage is to move back to the native village, send boys to Veda Patashala, keep girls at home and never let them go out alone, no TV at home, no cinema, etc.

I know, all this is hard but if there is a strong will to solve this "scourge" then one must bite the bullet and get it done.

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

I did not say that IC/IR marriages are a "scourge"; that is, again, from your own stock!

But the reality of the situation seems to me to be that of late, the latent sexuality in our Indian people (across all the divides like age-group, gender, geography, etc.) has, due to many factors, increased phenomenally and the young girls are more oriented towards the physical aspects of married life. Most tabra boys do fall way behind in this respect and this sort of drives our young girls to fall for non-tabra males who conform more to the ideal specimen of their dreams possibly.

It is not easy to put a stop to this social trend. Either we meekly accept the changes or ostracize such boys and girls from brahmin society. But in most households I find that the parents are unable to take the extreme step due to many reasons. Hence, even if this IC/IR marriages are a scourge, as correctly analyzed by Shri Nara, we have to suffer these just like we did the plague, small-pox etc.

But, as explained in post # 5, there is a mysterious self-esteem in trying to ensure, AFAP, that the progeny of all such tabra IC marriages are put up again on the high brahmin pedestal so that the "glory of brahminism" is not in any danger.

Note: As a brahmin, I prefer to use the Tahoma font because it has "homa" in it

 

[sangom]

Do you really mean it? Just because you share his hatred of NRI from west, you do not have to prop him up. The moderation is arbitrary at best, and cuts both ways. I too feel that comments from some member is tolerated, sometimes.

Somehow you have got an impression that I am against NRIs from the west. I am against India aping the west and I am also against opinionated NRIs. But I have some very good friends from among the NRIs from the west (US in particular) like Shri Nara, Palindrome, Kunjuppu etc.

Ravi and myself differ on many topics/issues (as already seen in some topics here) but I feel that he is a sincere person, not a self-imposing person with a "big-brother" facade.

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

i think nara was using the term 'scourge' with utmost facetiousness in his mind. knowing him, i would be very surprised, if it is anything but that ie a sly attempt at humour in discussing this, after all, a de facto topic.

 

[Nara]

...In a similar fashion in this forum all sorts of low level posts are allowed unopposed but posts by Ravi gets edited.

Dear Shri Sangom, you have me scratching my head generously endowed on the outside (eat your heart out dear K). I was trying to encourage Ravi to move on and you are telling him to take on a female sounding name because there are a lot of people in the forum who instinctively support the female sex in a kind of drooling fashion -- I know you will say all this is my mind making stuff up, but your words are clear enough. Let us try to make it better for Ravi, not instigate further disharmony for no valid purpose whatever.

I did not say that IC/IR marriages are a "scourge"; that is, again, from your own stock!

Dear Sangom, please take a look at my post, I was responding to vgane's post #23 in which he states "Do we ask the TamBrahms in India to give up and face this scourge lying down." Again, scratch, scratch -- more of this I will have to join dear K.

What surprises me is for vgane -- I hate to isolate just vgane, the truth is a lot of Brahmins share his anguish -- this IC/IR is nothing short of a catastrophe, a scourge that must be eliminated, yet they are unwilling to undertake the measures I outlined that will surely fix the problem, no more IC/IR scourge. Instead, they only want to discuss half measures that have as much chance of success as the chance of even one concerned Brahmin moving to his village and following my suggestions.

best regards ....

 

[jaisiyaraam]

Namaste Sangomji,

Note: As a brahmin, I prefer to use the Tahoma font because it has "homa" in it

I could not stop laughing, I almost spilled hot tea on me, cracking at your comment !!!


Thanks,
Jai SiyaRaam

 

[kunjuppu]

With all the given constraints how do we solve the problem...It does not mean going back to the roots

sorry to disappoint you mate, but i think, a good number of us tambrams do not care to heed to the rules of 100 years or before any more. we may not be a majority, but are a significant number, to get the traditionalists concerned. personally i welcome this change, and do not see it as a problem. but yes, a change, to be MANAGED on our terms and for the continuation of our what i consider, decent and acceptable traditions. not some inane rituals and caste pride. there is enough of that all over india.

Let Brahmins come together and say that we will not send our kids to any tom dick and harry school...Let us certify the schools where Brahmin values will be appreciated..

again, i wish to say, that we are the ones who broke ranks and attended convent schools. later we find them wanting, and we started our own, wherever possible, to suit our cultural needs. PSBB, Chettinad, Vidya Mandir are such schools. These schools are run, what i would say on hindu morals, but i dont think they can or should teach the separation of castes.

Let us educate the girls & provide modern education, but at the same time let us inculcate moral education too

what moral education you want? dont marry outside of the castes? if the parents have no objection, who are strangers, albeit of the same caste to say. it is like the recent divya ilavarasan stuff, where politics and the public got into the picture, and made a mess of the whole thing.

Any why not a pledge that we administer to our kids to keep them on the right path?

i agree. except to me, the right path, is to follow respect hindu values regardless of caste. otherwise, tomorrow our numbers will be counted within 4 or 5 digits, which is the fear of the OP

Also we are not talking of caste purity..I want our community to live its life with dignity and not be hounded by pseudo secularists in the garb of IC & IR

i agree with you. as a devout spiritual hindu, nothing disgusts me more than the pseudo secularists. pure secularists have respect for religions. like nehru or lohia. or even rajaji. though i dont understand what living with its life and dignity has to do with 'hounding'. also, along the same lines, i am leery of rss or bajrang dal or some elements of bjp because, india is a multi ethnic multi religiou multi linguistic multi country. if we irreparably antagonize targeted groups, it will explode to violence, and ultimate victims may be you or your children (if they still live in india).

Will you look with glee that your community is getting ethnically cleansed by this process?

i think it is ethically cleansed enough. any more ethical cleansing, and others would need sunglasses, to protect the glare emanating from such pure skins.

to sum up, between a marrying couple, there needs to be a compatibility on many fronts - economic, social interests, hobbies, pastimes, money sense, affection, regard, food, etc...and i think, same caste is not a prerequisite to a good marriage. having all the others, same caste helps.

the biggest hurdles are the society and relatives. if we leave the couple alone, i think, there is a good chance that they can make a marriage work, provided it is well thought out BEFORE the event.

 

[C RAVI]

Do you really mean it? Just because you share his hatred of NRI from west, you do not have to prop him up. The moderation is arbitrary at best, and cuts both ways. I too feel that comments from some member is tolerated, sometimes.

How do you conclude that I hate NRI from West in general and as members in this Forum??

Can we say, going by 1000s of post in this forum, that NRI's here in this forum hate Brahmins in India/Tamil Nadu and hate the members who voice in favor of Brahmins?

I for one would consider strong oppositions from each side on the message we post here in a debate and not a personal hatred on each other.

But, unfortunately you and probably few others can view things differently. That is why you conclude that I hate NRI's of this Forum.

As Shri Sangom said, I too have very good friendship with couple of NRI's in western world including my cousins. Off course, they have lots of concern for Brahmins in India and are contributing a lot for the Brahmins exclusively as a basic instinct of serving the own clan with which one still wants to associate and feel proud of it.

 

[vgane]

sorry to disappoint you mate, but i think, a good number of us tambrams do not care to heed to the rules of 100 years or before any more. we may not be a majority, but are a significant number, to get the traditionalists concerned. personally i welcome this change, and do not see it as a problem. but yes, a change, to be MANAGED on our terms and for the continuation of our what i consider, decent and acceptable traditions. not some inane rituals and caste pride. there is enough of that all over india.

There is hardly any pride left with the Tambrahm...He has given up his traditional dress to suit the modern life...He no more sports the traditional symbols of his religion..He has given up his Brahminical Tamil to live with the rest of the populace...He has compromised his education & employment by making peace with reservation...Now when you are trying to poison him with IC & IR what is left of him...An emaciated soul crying Easwara..What should I do...And you are repeating again & again IC is the salvation ...In Tamil there is a slogan வெந்த புண்ணில் வேல் பாய்ச்சுவது.. (Frying pan to the fire equivalent)

again, i wish to say, that we are the ones who broke ranks and attended convent schools. later we find them wanting, and we started our own, wherever possible, to suit our cultural needs. PSBB, Chettinad, Vidya Mandir are such schools. These schools are run, what i would say on hindu morals, but i dont think they can or should teach the separation of castes.

There needs to be more of that in Higher Education too...None of the above mentioned are in higher education...We just have one Sastra University where traditional values are appreciated

what moral education you want? dont marry outside of the castes? if the parents have no objection, who are strangers, albeit of the same caste to say. it is like the recent divya ilavarasan stuff, where politics and the public got into the picture, and made a mess of the whole thing.

Moral education does not mean pride in caste...It means character building, control of mind, teaching yoga & meditation...Why are you bringing caste into this?


i agree. except to me, the right path, is to follow respect hindu values regardless of caste. otherwise, tomorrow our numbers will be counted within 4 or 5 digits, which is the fear of the OP

Why are you unnecessarily bringing caste into the debate...I never said anything superior about Brahmins


i agree with you. as a devout spiritual hindu, nothing disgusts me more than the pseudo secularists. pure secularists have respect for religions. like nehru or lohia. or even rajaji. though i dont understand what living with its life and dignity has to do with 'hounding'. also, along the same lines, i am leery of rss or bajrang dal or some elements of bjp because, india is a multi ethnic multi religiou multi linguistic multi country. if we irreparably antagonize targeted groups, it will explode to violence, and ultimate victims may be you or your children (if they still live in india).

Surprisingly you are bringing the RSS into this with some ulterior motive...

i think it is ethically cleansed enough. any more ethical cleansing, and others would need sunglasses, to protect the glare emanating from such pure skins.

I said ethnically cleansed (not ethically cleansed) which is what EVR wanted which our children are unwittingly following
to sum up, between a marrying couple, there needs to be a compatibility on many fronts - economic, social interests, hobbies, pastimes, money sense, affection, regard, food, etc...and i think, same caste is not a prerequisite to a good marriage. having all the others, same caste helps.

Caste has been the foundation of India & Indianness...Why are you breaking caste of only Brahmins with gay abandon..Can you try to mess with any other caste...No...Because Brahmins are the soft targets as they do not retaliate...You want to break the foundation and say that is good for the country...Alas you will also be hounded as you too are part of the same foundation (I did not mean you to be kunjuppu but of your ilk)

the biggest hurdles are the society and relatives. if we leave the couple alone, i think, there is a good chance that they can make a marriage work, provided it is well thought out BEFORE the event.

My response in Bold Blue Font below your points

 

[kunjuppu]

hi vgane,

thank you for your detailed reply.

as you can see, you have extrapolated a lot of conclusions from my note to you, not all of them correct, from my pov. but let it stay, as that is your belief.

i have to agree, that there are lots of folks who strongly believe in castes. but i think, and i may be wrong, the whole of india, is moving away from caste, albeit slowly, but steadily.

i think this will continue. it is upto us to manage this. if we put strong rules against our children marrying other castes, they will take refuge in the other's family. we lose our children. the choice is ours, each one of us.

so upto each one of us, if and when faced with this situation, whether to manage it to our benefit, or otherwise.

peace

 

[renuka]

Dear Dr Renu

Your post # 3.

You seem to have taken the literal meaning and done some word splitting. "Mental Migration" is a
process that takes place in every evolving society. The subject deals specifically with ethno-culturally
enclosed societies and issues of diaspora communities wherein "Participation Therapies" have been recommended
to address the issues concerned. It is a 'process' - pretty abstract.

That is like the word 'Slumdog' that conveys quite a contrary meaning if split.

Seclusions & Inclusions form part of the Participation Therapy - eg., the discarding of racial superiority
or the abolishing of slave trade can be attributed to "Mental Migration".

As Sangom says, one street / residential complex / one family might be too small a specimen to observe
and make a generalization out of. But I think Ravi has utilized the correct term and in the correct context.

Yay Yem

Dear AM ji,

My post #3 which you are referring too has been deleted by moderator..current post #3 is the verse from Geeta.

 

[biswa]

A contrarian point of view may be to measure global impact instead of impact to one constituent when two ingredients are mixed. For example, if one glass of pure water is mixed with one glass of polluted water, the whole water becomes polluted. On the other hand if one intelligent kid studies with one weaker kid, maybe both raise their intellectual level.

I dont have data, but I have questions. Are children of ICMs necessarily NV? If they result in more V people globally, isnt that a good thing. Are children of ICMs necessarily irreligious and uncultured? If they turn out to be more cultured and respectful, isn't that a good thing? Are the children of ICM necessarily dumb and brutish? If they turn out to be intelligent and respectful, isn't that a good thing? Are children of ICMs necessarily foul looking? If they turn out to be handsome or exotically attractive, isn't that a good thing?

What I am saying is that it need not be a zero sum game where one side loses and the other side wins. Hybrid vigour could be a win-win.

 

[renuka]

If they turn out to be handsome or exotically attractive, isn't that a good thing?

They are mostly beautiful...

Shruti Hassan..product of a TB Father and Nortie Non Brahmin Mother..what a beauty and a talented..intelligent girl too.

Vivek Oberoi..product of a Nortie NB Father and a TB mother..a handsome young man with a heart of gold..helped out lots in TN during the Tsunami.

 

[tks]

I have few questions and want to know if there are general agreements in the answers.

1. Can anyone enumerate the key qualities of the culture and key traditional values that need to be preserved?
2. What does preservation mean?
3. Why preserve?

 

[renuka]

Our ancient people did a wonderful job in identifying that the extent of spiritual progress may vary among people. They postulated that marrying should happen between a man and a woman who are at the same level of spiritual progress, but being a marriage between a man and a woman they are supposed to complement each other and that is how the marriage helps them in their spiritual journey. Marrying across levels should not happen because you should consummate the progress at the lower level first.

The above I think is the basis for marriages being advocated only within the groups

Please note spiritual progress may not imply either superiority or inferiority of one human over the other and there are plentiful people who do not care for spirituality.

The above is only my argument against IC marriages based on my understanding of the scriptures.

Dear Sravna,

Yes..agreed..marriage should take place among equals..

1)Equals in mindset.

2)Equals in family background.

3)Equals in education.

4)Equals in wealth.

5)Equals in religious beliefs as in the concept of God.


Sometimes all these matches might be actually found in a person who might not be in the same community as us.

So I don't see any problems in that...but just to add..I am a product of Intercaste marriage and I opted for an arranged marriage with another intercaste person cos I did not want to marry a pure breed of any kind for fear that I might not be able to adjust to a pure breed lifestyle..but I feel I turned out fine as a Hindu.

 

[Jaykay767]

Too much of hair splitting on this issue !!. In the 70s, the whites rejected their religion & became hippies & an entire generation was lost. After that expensive experiment, most whites have come back to conservative roots. Today there is a large majority of whites following Christianity more than ever!!

Despite all these modernity, I know some folks who are highly educated working in corporate, sending their kids to study Vedam. So the more people go out of traditions, there are many who are going back strongly to the roots.

So this is a cycle & has to happen for the next generation to learn the pros & cons of marrying outside. Today for a lot of Brahmin kids & even NB kids, like to rebel, go against all the ancient culture & marry outside. It has become a fashion, show off, rebel & set a path like a lone ranger like in the American movies – LOL!!. Give 20/30 yrs, none of their kids will be able to marry into the community. Then that lesson will percolate to the next gen, who will then be more cautious in marrying outside!!

So in the meanwhile, as parents educate your kids the pros and cons of marrying outside. Also the most important thing the Brahmin parents can do is to get their kids to follow traditions from day 1. For eg if a boy or girl gets into carnatic music or study vedic slokams, etc.. , they will automatically choose Bram partners. It is all in the way you groom your kids. If you get into these forums & learn all the wrong things, saying everything is okay, I am okay for my kids to marry anyone or anything, I give a lot for freedom to my kids, then you will be facing such issues in your families!!

I know many folks who are into IC/IR marriages who blame their parents for not guiding them properly the pros, cons & cry over it when it is too late to do anything!! By the way, many in this forum are from the IC/IR group, hence they are loudly proclaiming all this, so follow them at your own peril !!

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna, Yes..agreed..marriage should take place among equals.. 1)Equals in mindset. 2)Equals in family background. 3)Equals in education. 4)Equals in wealth. 5)Equals in religious beliefs as in the concept of God. Sometimes all these matches might be actually found in a person who might not be in the same community as us. So I don't see any problems in that...but just to add..I am a product of Intercaste marriage and I opted for an arranged marriage with another intercaste person cos I did not want to marry a pure breed of any kind for fear that I might not be able to adjust to a pure breed lifestyle..but I feel I turned out fine as a Hindu.

Dear Renuka, I am not talking about caste at all but talking only about the compatibility between two persons with the same extent of spiritual progress. That I think ensures more happiness than possibly all other equals put together minus the spiritual compatibility, do you agree?

 

[tbs]

hi
i saw a real life couple in USA....the gal is tambrahm,,,,,she belongs to palakkad agraharam

and studied in coimbatore engg college...boy is NB....belong to coimbatore....they met in college..

got married...she has very peculiar palakkad tamil...good in nature and beauty too....but

he is exactly opposite...i still wonder...how this works....i never got answer...even i had

love experiences and never think going out of my basket...love is different...real life is

different.....even i wish i like to love with my own subsect with different gothra....even

sometimes iyer/iyengar love is also unimmaginable to me....may be im unfit for modern days love?

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka, I am not talking about caste at all but talking only about the compatibility between two persons with the same extent of spiritual progress. That I think ensures more happiness than possibly all other equals put together minus the spiritual compatibility, do you agree?

Dear Sravna,

Yes I fully agree with you..spouse's mindset on spirituality should match to a certain extent.

 

[renuka]

.may be im unfit for modern days love?

Dear TBS garu,

If you are unfit for modern day love..tell me who else is fit?

Remember you told in Forum before that even after marriage you had 10 marriage proposals?

I am pretty sure the 10 were not only from TB community..you could have conquered hearts right from Kashmir to Kanyakumari..am I right???

 

[Anand Manohar]

TBS Garu

Your post # 046

I don't think it is a good thing to be highly opinionated and judgemental about people.

The world doesn't conform to any one person's yardstick or stick within the parameters
of any one person's 'specification sheet'.

Yay Yem

 

[zebra16]

Sri Nara Sir,

But, if you think educating boys and girls is a good thing, if you think bringing up girls like Mahakavi Bharathi sang about is of value, if you think modern education that encourages our children to think critically for themselves and analyze the meaning of life for themselves is important, and, most importantly, if you think loving your children is more important than some fantasy of caste purity, then, learn to not only accept the inevitable, but rejoice in it. If Shri Sangom is right, the children of this "scourge" will be taught all the Brahmnical culture and "values" afterall.

Thanks ...

My response is only in respect of the high lighted portion of the text of your message. You have conveniently added caste purity which need not necessarily be the reason for viewing the IC/IR marriage as "scourge" by the OP. After all we have seen in the last 100 years or so that two equally "pure caste" sub sects did not come together in marriage.

I admit that I would readily given in to the demand of my child to marry a partner of her choice, but you are rather over playing the "love" card more blatantly. What about the love of the son or daughter to his/her mother and father? Is it a second fiddle to the love of the marriage partner?

Why does a person who loves his/her brother or sister without reservation, when he/she had no choice or option of selection, has to put such a premium on the parental love and demand my way or highway in respect of marriage?

Notwithstanding all your reservations about Brahmnical culture and values that made you put the word values in quotes, and howsoever it may be elusive to define and be invisible, it is as much an inevitability or "scourge" like IC/IR marriages are, and people who scoff at such "values" would do well to recognize it and start to adjust themselves to its reality just as they did with IC/IR marriages.