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A Few Glimpses from South Indian History

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Sow. Happyhindu

"The maoists resent being marginalized for being "low-caste". "

I don't know how much you know about the Naxal movement. But many of its heads are from high caste families - Koteswar Rao (brahmin); even people from affluent brackgrounds like Korbad Ghandy, a Parsee man who was in the same school as Rajiv Gandhi.

I agree the Maoist movement is out of a serious greviance (you showed it too). But they cause greivances to a lot of people too in turn.

The people in between are of course the ones to suffer - like buses being blown up by Naxals, school teachers being held hostage etc. I do have the same empathy for the tribals and poors as Naxals seem to. But the present mode of violence won't be successful.

But I do agree its out of Naxals having to other way to show their anger for the governments corruption, that they have taken to arms.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
The brahmins are the most liberal when it comes to writing. If you think it's a crime to claim to be a brahmin, please ask yourself whether you tried at least once to persuade one of your family members to practice secularism when they were looking for bride or groom. It's applicable the most to the educated (by paying Rs. 500 or 1000/term in excellent institutions in India) and settled in the USA. If somebody thinks he doesn't want this tag, then why this forum. It's like atheists talking about the Hindu sampradhaayams. It's possible only in Hinduism esp brahmins. This is called ulladi velai in latest brand of thamil. I expected some constructive ideas to develop our youngsters into useful citizens of the world and monetarily successful. I don't find it here. I know some minority community groups which help poorer members of their community to get educated or set up business and grow. This forum I thought would be used for such ideas. But not to be.
The other side is half backed spiritual discussion. Who wants that when his son or daughter is in dire straights in real life. If somebody is well versed in spirituality he should be in some mutt teaching the vedic student and not counting dollars in USA or Canada. So I request all the so called educated members to come to reality and help (not monetarily) prepare our next gen to face the continued onslaught by the DK/DMKs. The people from other communities seem to be happy for what is happening to the so called brahmins. Secularism is easy to preach but more difficult to practice (more difficult than bharathiar days) nowadays. The secularism practiced by other communities has always been to grab the girls from our community. There are enough instances but I don't want to mention any particular religion here. The cinema is deliberately used to make believe that brahmin girl should fall in love with NBs and brahmin boys are unfit for that. So please stop this in this forum or change the name of the forum. finding fault with ourselves only is not retrospection.
If there is no evidence of of brahmin's sacrifice for the country/people, from where did they find evidence to the contrary. The entire Indian history is tarnished by the communist historians from JNU. So where will anyone get the evidence from?
The entire CBSE syllabus is abusing brahmin community in the name of history.
If it had been a forum brought to existence by other religion all the questioning would have been called blasphemy and there would prices fixed for so many heads.
 
Sri Sangomji - I understand what you meant by "Abracadabra".

"Coming to the actual context in which I used it to denote how the (Tamil) Brahman's sanskrit mantras would have appeared to the original Tamil people, it can be taken as 'gibberish' or unintelligible talk. This cannot be found fault with since even our ṛgvedic ṛṣis themselves used the term mṛdhravāk to refer to the unintelligible speech of the dasyus. In the same way the sanskrit mantras of the Tamil Brahmans must have been mṛdhravāk to most Tamil NB people, and may even be today."

I never denied many brahmins do chant the mantras for which they don't know its meaning or purpose (if any). But this apprent soccery and magic with mantras is not all the aspects of their culture. That is what I am coming to tell you. Thus for you to wrap up brahmins and their role in tamil society as "abracadabra" was incorrect IMHO.

I am thoroughly aware of its meaning. :-)


What EVR and DK, and all those brahmin-hating organizations missed is that the reason TBs did do well/are doing well is got to do with the ideals they hold highly too - like education. I agree brahmins should make more sense of their traditions and even discard some, but I know that TB culture is not only about that. I know it has many good aspects to it too. This is why I found your gross generalization of brahmins as "abracadbra" as offensive and factually wrong.

People get respect in society for what they are and do, plain as that. It would have been impossible for brahmins to have made people respect them by a narrssictic heirarchy in which they placed themselves on the top. The point is they regarded knowledge supreme, education important, enriched culture - for which they were respected. When the stagnated (as now), obviously the respect waned and even turned to hatred for their claims of greatness.

But another thing I said was: This discussion, we are having on the negative/criminal image of brahmins, is much too late sir. It should have happened in an earlier era.

It tells where we fell out actually. We have come to that point in time when I think you feel (like many others) that the anti-brahmin sentiment is justified, where you think brahmins had no legacy except that of evil, dogmatism, and oppressors.

Regards,
Vivek.
 
If I have grievance, there is enough ways to appeal in our system. Is it justified to steal because someone is hungry? Is it justified to grab other man's wife because his own is not beautiful? These movements are all thriving because our successive govts have been so naive. There is nobody to condone a policeman's death with humanity. There is no human rights for a policeman or a soldier but there is a lot of people to cry for human rights when a set of crazy minded men shooting/bombing women and children. What justice is this?
Remember you're protected by the policemen's guns from the anti-socials in the society you're in.
 
The brahmins are the most liberal when it comes to writing. If you think it's a crime to claim to be a brahmin, please ask yourself whether you tried at least once to persuade one of your family members to practice secularism when they were looking for bride or groom. It's applicable the most to the educated (by paying Rs. 500 or 1000/term in excellent institutions in India) and settled in the USA. If somebody thinks he doesn't want this tag, then why this forum. It's like atheists talking about the Hindu sampradhaayams. It's possible only in Hinduism esp brahmins. This is called ulladi velai in latest brand of thamil. I expected some constructive ideas to develop our youngsters into useful citizens of the world and monetarily successful. I don't find it here. I know some minority community groups which help poorer members of their community to get educated or set up business and grow. This forum I thought would be used for such ideas. But not to be.
The other side is half backed spiritual discussion. Who wants that when his son or daughter is in dire straights in real life. If somebody is well versed in spirituality he should be in some mutt teaching the vedic student and not counting dollars in USA or Canada. So I request all the so called educated members to come to reality and help (not monetarily) prepare our next gen to face the continued onslaught by the DK/DMKs. The people from other communities seem to be happy for what is happening to the so called brahmins. Secularism is easy to preach but more difficult to practice (more difficult than bharathiar days) nowadays. The secularism practiced by other communities has always been to grab the girls from our community. There are enough instances but I don't want to mention any particular religion here. The cinema is deliberately used to make believe that brahmin girl should fall in love with NBs and brahmin boys are unfit for that. So please stop this in this forum or change the name of the forum. finding fault with ourselves only is not retrospection.
If there is no evidence of of brahmin's sacrifice for the country/people, from where did they find evidence to the contrary. The entire Indian history is tarnished by the communist historians from JNU. So where will anyone get the evidence from?
The entire CBSE syllabus is abusing brahmin community in the name of history.
If it had been a forum brought to existence by other religion all the questioning would have been called blasphemy and there would prices fixed for so many heads.

Dear Sri Narayanaswamyc,

I agree with you 100%.

Only with the rise of BJP,the JNU and other anti-Hindu networks are challenged to a certain extent.

Rgds.,
 
People get respect in society for what they are and do, plain as that. It would have been impossible for brahmins to have made people respect them by a narrssictic heirarchy in which they placed themselves on the top. The point is they regarded knowledge supreme, education important, enriched culture - for which they were respected. When the stagnated (as now), obviously the respect waned and even turned to hatred for their claims of greatness.

Regards,
Vivek.

For two years I was working with an IAS officer (a Bihari NB) in the early 90s. He used to be quite uninhibited talking on castes and on other matters. He was to observe that Brahmins since time immemorial accorded value to learning for which they continue to earn respect.

Rgds.,
 
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Dear Sangom Sir,

My point was that, confining ourselves to TN, the 'machinery' for implementing the developmental programmes did not change much in its composition till the 1967 elections. Even before Independence, it was a feature of the Brahman officials to not even visit the slums or basties of the lower castes to ensure that the desired implementation did happen there—reason, aversion to getting ritually polluted! After Independence this reason could not be mouthed but the attitude remained unchanged and that is one reason for the neglect of the areas by all officials and probably, diversion of the funds. In the setting up of all such precedents Brahmans showed the way when they were at the top of the hierarchy.

I agree that our perceptions will never be synchronizing. But truth remains valid always because it is truth. Its claim to existence is not derived from any thing else. It exists by itself. The relative truths may rule the minds in the short run. But truth will still be there. The truth I am talking about here is the truth about Brahmins. That they are not responsible for the mess that the other powerful sections of the society have created. Now I can ask you what the officers and ministers belonging to other communities in Tamilnadu(they were the majority in the “government machinery”) were doing when the Brahmins were reluctant to go to the Cherys because of their so called perception of pollution. But I know that the answer will not be a forthright one.

I do not agree to the method of blaming the FCs who got power for the last 50 or 60 years, closing our eyes conveniently to the omissions and commissions of Brahmans down the ages.
Down the ages it was not only Brahmins who commited and omitted but it was only all these FCs who committed and omitted. When the awareness came with time they conveniently put every thing on Brahmins door.

Your argument may be very clever in getting political mileage but, unfortunately, whatever mileage we Brahmans may get will only be within this minority group and not outside; I for one, feel that is not going to help even politically in the long run and will only diminish what little good will Brahman individuals now enjoy in the society. Repeating your type of argument can, at best, make you popular among a section of the membership of this forum but it will lead ultimately to our taking the same ostrich-like attitude to developments and land the Brahman community in yet another unwanted slide-down, IMO.

The youngsters, including my sons, daughters, nephews and nieces just do not bother about all this nonsense about Brahmins burden. When MK talks about being a Samaniyan and mixes hatred by talking about DMK not being a Sankara matom my son perfectly understands that it is his political compulsion that is making him talk like that and takes it in his stride. He is more bothered about his projects and his business. He is confident that he can get along with these politicians in spite of what they talk. So this is where we stand today. I do not personally look for any popularity and am not in a race to win any approvals either. I, like the youngsters of today, am very much aware of the developments that are taking place in the society. Only I am not stuck with the guilt of the past or fear of isolation. I speak whatever I write here freely with my friends who are from other communities and mostly they agree with my reasoning. Cheers.
 
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Dear Sri Vivek,
I have been reading with interest your arguments. I am giving here a few of my comments:


"I don't have any issue with this, except, the way to deal with this is not to go after DK, but to look inward and change for the better. Get rid of the
concept of Varna altogether, make a clean break. "
Sure, get rid of the concept of gender to fight gender inequality. What you are not understanding is that definite cultural boundaries do exist in our society.
What you are incapable of doing is to condemn DK for its attack on brahmins. Our past generations should have seen this venemous trend for what it is and worked to attack the negative, criminal image tamil polity spreads of TBs. It would have helped if they worked to remove negative aspects of their culture too. DK itself played the caste card, do you even realize that? Now you want to get rid of varna.

If there is a reasonable assurance from the powerful communities of the Hindu religion that they will all give up the varna system completely the brahmins’ giving it up will be meaningful. Otherwise it will not yield the desired results. Going after DK is a different matter. It has nothing to do with the Varna system. DK is a disease that has afflicted the tamil society. It has to be dealt with properly. Now a few relevant questions which have so far not been answered:
1. DK’s founder Periyar had only members belonging to the powerfull castes as his deputies during his entire lifetime. Karunanidhi was a vellaalar, Nedunchezhiyan, Mathiyalagan, Anbazhagan and Natarajan and Annadurai were all Mudaliyars. Madurai Muthu was a Pillai, Veeramani is a Yadava and you name any one I can tell you what community he belonged to. The truth is that he did not have a single dalit in his close circle of revolutionaries. It was not a coincidence. During the same period Rajaji was able to have Kakkan as a dalit leader in his cabinet. In Madurai an entire Brahmin family lived with dalits as adopted family members. How can such a leader who had a secret dislike for dalits be a social revolutionary and how can we leave his outfit as harmless to the society?


What DK does is their business...IMO, the social evil that is caste system is a product of Brahminism. Any practitioner of Brahminism will have to answer for it, whether TB or TNB, or plain B and NB."
True, but once anyone supports them it becomes your bussiness too.
And again you go to call casteism "brahminism". Brahmins emphasized on education, on non-drinking how come all of these positive things aren't uttered by your mind as "brahminism"? Likewise my question for the DK and its supporters.
They are quick as lightening in calling an evil of social discrimination "brahmin-ism", you place them as primary responsible by the name itself, even though you go on to say others also have to answer for it. Your naming itself spells your bias.
When your neighbour throws garbage into your garage it is not just his business. Brahminism is a word coined by Britishers and conveniently grabbed by DK. Now it is being used more frequently by the reformists in this forum than even the kazhakamaites.



//"The Brahmins made this choice voluntarily, and they chose to be Brahmins with Sanskrit as deva bhasha, superior to Tamil. It is true that many notable contributions to Tamil were made by Brahmins, but, they always held Sanskrit superior. This can be established by a simple test, how many Brahmins gladly accept the notion that Archanai in temples can be done in Tamil?"//

And you correctly accept that brahmins did contribute to Tamil. I don't understand superiority or inferiority of languages. Is there anything truely offensive in archanais being done in Sanskrit? I feel tamil society is sort of xenophobic where any apparent outside influence is seen as hating the native.
Tamil brahmins had that tradition in Sanskrit which is why they follow it in Sanskrit. When it comes to tamil literature - Thirupuggal or Thirukural etc, TBs would ONLY read it or say it in Tamil merely because that is how it was created. They are proud to read Tamil literature in Tamil, and proud to read what was done in Sanskrit, in Sanskrit.
For that matter, Muslims read the Quran in Arabic and write it in that script too - both language and script are foreign to India. Is that offensive? Not the least to me.
I would only read Sheakspear in English, not in Tamil or Marathi. Why should that be offensive? Your reply Nara is another classical example of you asking brahmins to choose an identity IMO.

A community which was concerned with what happens after death as much as with what happens during the life time the inclination towards philosophy and religion was naturally more pronounced. Sanskrit is a language which has more religious literature than Tamil. Rather ancient tamil has very little religious literature (Paripadal and a few other works are the only exception in what is available to us). Later came the Bhakti Literature period and we have plenty of that kind of literature in Tamil. So in matters which are connected with religion the basha used was deva bhasha. After the bhakti literatures came may be Tamil too has become a devabasha. If majority of the people who go to temples want it that way Tamil will replace Any other language as the devabasha. But to introduce it compulsorily because the mavericks want it is a different ball game.
 
Sow. Happyhindu

"The maoists resent being marginalized for being "low-caste". "

I don't know how much you know about the Naxal movement. But many of its heads are from high caste families - Koteswar Rao (brahmin); even people from affluent brackgrounds like Korbad Ghandy, a Parsee man who was in the same school as Rajiv Gandhi.
Am talking of the cadres, not a few leaders. Even Velupillai Prabhakaran was a so-called 'upper-caste' saiva pillai, but the majority of the tamil tiger cadres were so-called 'dalits'. The caste of the leaders does not matter in such cases because they and their cadres share the same ideology.
 
namaste everyone.

I am glad that Vivek is reinstated and that he is back with his torrents of logical counterpoints with an intention to present them with mellowness.

Did not the Bhakti literature practically supplant the Brahman scriptures to a large extent, even in Brahman homes? To what extent Tabras have followed suit and replaced sanskrit mantras with Tamil ones in their homes and group worships?

The Brahmins made this choice voluntarily, and they chose to be Brahmins with Sanskrit as deva bhasha, superior to Tamil.

01. What is wrong in ******* using Sanskrit in home and group worships? How is it that the Bhakti literature is found only in Tamizh, when one can easily find it in many Sanskrit shlokas and stotras used in *******' worship at home? How many ******* conduct veda pArAyaNam or the vedic rituals of pancha yajna daily at home or read the purANas in their Sanskrit originals?

The fact is that most ******* are not literate in Sanskrit at all!
Even the Sanskrit shlokas and stotras they chant in pujas are in most cases from their transliterated text in Tamizh, often chanted with faulty pronunciation, so it is imperative for ******* who depend on transliteration to learn rudimentary Sanskrit urgently, or else face their chantings to go waste or even bring in negative results!

******* do participate in the bhajan sessions that are popular today, where the bhajans are in many languages. ******* are as cosmopolitan as any other Tamizh community, at home and society.

02. Surely, Sanskrit is the deva-bASha and Tamizh mAtru-bASha for *******, but as Swami said in post no.227, the fact is that ******* "consider both Tamil and Sanskrit worthy of adoration", and as Vivek pointed out in post no.275, they chant a hymn in its original language. I have come across many ******* who regularly chant AbirAmi AntAdi and Kanda ShaShTi Kavacham at home and do pArAyaNam of these hymns while they are commuting to office.

What about the mlechcha-bASha, English, which every Tamilian these days--TB or TNB, or plain B and NB, to borrow Nara's phrase--is fluent at? Why are the reformists not bothered about this language invading our homes and culture in the name of modernity and communication?

The Western Hindus out there, indulge in all sorts of mimicry and farce in their chanting and pujas in the name of devotion. Thus, one can easily find GaNesha rap chants or Heavy Metal Shiva hymns on the Net and YouTube, to which our Hindu youths readily take, so the day is not far when English would enter our religious worship--or rather religious entertainment--with our children in the near future, if we do not do something about it now.

If ******* supposedly use more Sanskrit than Tamil at home, which is not true, let me ask if there are any Tamizh NBs who speak solely in Tamizh at home, so they become "pure Tamils" in the yardstick of shrI Sangom? Do the reformists themselves--both native and diaspora--use Tamizh without mixing English words in their conversation?

As for the Tambra Tamizh dialect, Cho Ramaswamy pointed out in a Tuglaq issue, that it is nearer to grammatically right Tamizh than the other dialects. How many Tamizh politicians, TV news readers and announcers speak Tamizh correctly? I for one am nostalgic about the TV and AIR news readers Shobana Ravi, Fathima, Varadarajan, Vijayam, Sendamizh Arasu and many others who spoke correct and crystal clear Tamizh.

Here is an informative article about Sanskrit and Tamizh and how the use of 'pure Tamil' is threatened by English and not by Sanskrit:
Sanskrit: some questions

Whatever path did the Tamizh and Sanskrit scripts take in their evolution from the Brahmic family of scripts, I find striking resemblances (pun intended) between the Sanskrit and Tamizh alphabets in many letters in the way they are written today:

अ and அ उ and உ ए and ஏ (mirror)
क and க ण and ண त and த
न and ன प and ப म and ம
य and ய ल and ள ह and ஹ

The visarga signs are dots in both languages, although they differ in number and arrangement.


My point is that we should look for unifying similarities and cognates in our Indian languages in the substratum of our religion, culure and civilization, rather than fall prey to the academic research by the Westerns and non-religious intellectuals who always look for ways to part and divide.
 
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namaster everyone.

shrI Sangom said in post no.219:
I am trying to deal with just one of the many qualifications attributed to TBs, viz., TBs were pure Tamils. I am not going into the genetic aspects because that science was not in the scene when these developments took place. But otherwise, here is a southern corner of the peninsula which has had a distinct language, which, as spoken by the non-erudite masses, is mostly free from the sanskrit language influence. It also became evident that this Tamizh language had a great literary history and its development was free from the vedic or sanskritic influences and presented a society with a sufficiently developed social structure. Amidst this sea of ordinary masses was a small group, holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion, scriptures in an alien language and which, at every other step, would convince an impartial student that this small group was living at best as ambassadors of an entirely different era, people, culture, religion and belief system.

I said in post no.255, quoting this entire text:
To me, this sounds like a typical DK/DMK rhetoric. Although I am not much capable due to my limited knowledge of Tamizh sangham literature, I am sure that most of the perceptions in your above rhetoric can be disproved from the Tamizh texts themselves. So, I would request you to justify the perceptions in your above statement with example verses from the Tamizh texts of the period you are talking about.

shrI Nara, in post no.258, under the pretext of deconstructing Sangom's above statements, has taken only what was convenient to him, and said:
Leaving that aside, before trying to prove or disprove, we need to understand what Saidevo is challenging. I would like to deconstruct Shri Sangom's statement for convenience.

Amidst this sea of ordinary masses was <brahmins were> a small group,
<brahmins> holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion,
<brahmin> scriptures in an alien language and which,

He then derived the following conclusion predicated upon the above three claims.

.... which, at every other step, would convince an impartial student that this small group was living at best as ambassadors of an entirely different era, people, culture, religion and belief system

To me, the three points are patently obvious needing no separate proof. Brahmins are still a small group, they do hold allegiance to a different culture so much so that they don't want it diluted and want to preserve it at all costs, and their scripture are indeed in an alien language. Perhaps Saidevo is talking only about the religion, but I think not.

My observation about shrI Sangom's statements in question that they sound like DK/DMK rhetoric, is mainly with reference to the first part of Sangom's statements, which are mainly by way of opinions on the part of reformists and academic scholars, without any sort of evidence from the Tamizh texts of the period.

It is in this context that I have required shrI Sangom to establish with examples from Tamizh texts:

• a southern corner of the peninsula which has had a distinct language, which, as spoken by the non-erudite masses, is mostly free from the sanskrit language influence.

• t also became evident that this Tamizh language had a great literary history and its development was free from the vedic or sanskritic influences and presented a society with a sufficiently developed social structure.

Is there evidences in the writings of Tamizh texts and the scholars prior to the colonial rule in clear proof of the above statements by shrI Sangom?

On the other hand, even with limited acquaitance, people like me can quote numberous evidences from the Tamizh textx of the Sangham and later periods in refutation of shrI Nara's deconstruct of shrI Sangom's statements. There are ample evidences--and I have already quoted many--that neither the brahimns considered themselves, nor the public nor the rulers considered them, to be apart from the Tamizh society, although the brahmins were a minority and their Vedic culture and language--not religion--was different from the common culture of the society. It should be noted that among the Sangham poets, as many as 30 were brahmins, in evidence of their fluency in the language, besides in Sanskrit.

The poisonous seeds that the Tamizh brahmins were outsiders with a culture, language and religion apart from those of the public were sown during the British rule and readily picked up by the DK and DMK in their bid for power and money under the divide and rule policy.
 
The poisonous seeds that the Tamizh brahmins were outsiders with a culture, language and religion apart from those of the public were sown during the British rule and readily picked up by the DK and DMK in their bid for power and money under the divide and rule policy.

This is the reality. The dravida parties did this and somehow it resonated with the public. This is borne out by the fact that they have been in power in Tamil Nadu since 1967. These classifications are always made for political purposes only. Even people like Shri Nara, Sangom when they bring out points about the ills of the caste system are doing exactly the same thing. It is my view that one should take the elements of truth in whatever any one says, correct the wrongs and keep going your way. It is human nature to enlarge and magnify points in any argument to create effect.

My two cents worth.

K. Kumar.
 
namaster everyone.

There are ample evidences--and I have already quoted many--that ... although the brahmins were a minority and their Vedic culture and language--not religion--was different from the common culture of the society. (emphasis mine—sangom)

The poisonous seeds that the Tamizh brahmins were outsiders with a culture, language and religion apart from those of the public were sown during the British rule and readily picked up by the DK and DMK in their bid for power and money under the divide and rule policy.

?!!!
 
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....shrI Nara, in post no.258, under the pretext of deconstructing Sangom's above statements, has taken only what was convenient to him, and said:
Saidevo, I was only trying to understand what you were challenging, it was not clear in your original post. I highlighted what I thought would be most objectionable to you, not what was convenient to me.

Now, you have made it clear.

• a southern corner of the peninsula which has had a distinct language, which, as spoken by the non-erudite masses, is mostly free from the sanskrit language influence.

• t also became evident that this Tamizh language had a great literary history and its development was free from the vedic or sanskritic influences and presented a society with a sufficiently developed social structure.
These two points flow from Shri Sangom's, "<Tamil> as spoken by the non-erudite masses, is mostly free from the sanskrit language influence. It also became evident that this Tamizh language had a great literary history and its development was free from the vedic or sanskritic influences and presented a society with a sufficiently developed social structure."

These issues are debatable, but no need to pejoratively observe, "To me, this sounds like a typical DK/DMK rhetoric."

In any case, I will give my take on these two points.

I have no doubt that Sanskrit and Tamil influenced each other. It was a two-way traffic. However, Shri Sangom's point was that spoken Tamil by the non-erudite was mostly free of Sanskrit influence. Whether this is true or not cannot be established by evidences gleaned from writing in Tamil. To me, his statement sounds quite reasonable. Even today we see that the level of Sanskritization of Tamil goes down as you go down the social order.

I think your main objection regarding the second bullet point is about "vedic or sanskritic influences" in the Tamil literary tradition. As I have stated above, there was influence flowing in both direction. Each benefited from the other, and Professor Hart observes that Tamil benefited by borrowing Sanskrit words, which, according to Hart, was trivial compared to what Sanskrit owes Tamil, its very syntax rules.

Even if one disagrees with Hart, it is clear that Tamil developed as an independent classical language on its own strength, with many independent thoughts and ideas and, also borrowing words and ideas from Sanskrit. All this does not negate the main point that Brahmins stood apart from the ordinary masses, holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion, and scriptures in an alien language. This is true even today. Most TBs hold Sanskrit higher than Tamil even though they have no Sanskrit knowledge at all.

All this is perfectly fine, they have the right to value anything they want. But, it is the TBs who make this choice voluntarily, nobody is making them choose one over the other. When supposedly Tamil lovers like V. Krishnaswamy Aiyar and Sivasamy Aiyar say things like Sanskrit is the parent of all Indian literature including Tamil, or Tamil is indebted to conceptions found in the Sanskrit literature, most of what is in the vernacular literatures of India owes its inspiration to Sanskrit -- these are just two examples of what is widely held opinion among TBs -- they are being ignorant, and choosing to be different from the rest of Tamil society.

... There are ample evidences--and I have already quoted many--that neither the brahimns considered themselves, nor the public nor the rulers considered them, to be apart from the Tamizh society, although the brahmins were a minority and their Vedic culture and language--not religion--was different from the common culture of the society.
Living in the midst and carrying on interactions does not necessarily mean they did not separate themselves as an exclusive group. In every walk of life TBs separated themselves from the rest of the society. They lived in agraharams, separated from the rest of the NB villagers. They talked in a different dialect than the rest of NB villagers. In schools they sat separately from the rest of the NBs. They eat separately from the rest of the NBs. All these marked them as different from and superior to the rest of the NBs.

The poisonous seeds that the Tamizh brahmins were outsiders with a culture, language and religion apart from those of the public were sown during the British rule and readily picked up by the DK and DMK in their bid for power and money under the divide and rule policy.
I agree that the notion that TBs are outsiders is a poisonous seed, but it is the TBs themselves who planted this seed.

Cheers!
 
This is the reality. The dravida parties did this and somehow it resonated with the public. This is borne out by the fact that they have been in power in Tamil Nadu since 1967. These classifications are always made for political purposes only. Even people like Shri Nara, Sangom when they bring out points about the ills of the caste system are doing exactly the same thing. It is my view that one should take the elements of truth in whatever any one says, correct the wrongs and keep going your way. It is human nature to enlarge and magnify points in any argument to create effect.

My two cents worth.

K. Kumar.

Shri Kumar,

Kindly see my post #288 above. Even Shri Saidevo has not been able to overlook or cover up the fact that—
"There are ample evidences--and I have already quoted many--that ... although the brahmins were a minority and their Vedic culture and language--not religion--was different from the common culture of the society. (emphasis mine—sangom)

The poisonous seeds that the Tamizh brahmins were outsiders with a culture, language and religion apart from those of the public were sown during the British rule and readily picked up by the DK and DMK in their bid for power and money under the divide and rule policy.

It is this difference in culture (vedic) and language which made the Tabras different, somehow. The other factors and circumstances which led to the aggravation of the anti-Brahman emotions have been discussed in this forum earlier, perhaps, many times.

My opinion is that the more we try to discuss this issue, viz., anti-brahman riots, anti-brahman politics of EVR/DK/DMK and trying to prove that they (EVR/DK/DMK) were morally wrong, that the brahmans were not to be blamed, that even if brahmans had some faults, anyone trying to justify the DK/DMK/EVR stand is not straightforward and honest, etc., the less we will convince the Tamil society and the less helpful it will be of any help for the future of tabras; on the contrary, we will be alienating ourselves more and more from the tamil society at large which can only bring adverse results to us as time passes.

I, therefore, withdraw from the discussion.
 
This is the reality. The dravida parties did this and somehow it resonated with the public. This is borne out by the fact that they have been in power in Tamil Nadu since 1967. These classifications are always made for political purposes only. Even people like Shri Nara, Sangom when they bring out points about the ills of the caste system are doing exactly the same thing. It is my view that one should take the elements of truth in whatever any one says, correct the wrongs and keep going your way. It is human nature to enlarge and magnify points in any argument to create effect.

My two cents worth.

K. Kumar.

kumar,

pray that i wish to disagree re your statement that nara/sangom's views are influenced by political undertones. to me, these are the best of the breed, of tambrams and what they say, resonates with me.

have you ever wondered why that we have attracted so much anger and despise by the very groups among whom we live? have you not felt alienated? is the legacy that you would like to leave to your child?

i happen to live in canada and my children are canadians. they have a sense of belonging and feel part of the society here. i cannot say the same thing of even myself, as i was growing up. much of this is due to the values inculcated at home.

whether they like it or not, the world is changing, for the better, towards the integration of tamil brahmins into the tamil society at large. for want of socio cultural integration by the establishment, we find the youth are opting the view of intermarriage.

there was a thread on IC marriages, which generated a lot of heat, primarily from the parents of boys at the sight of so many girls marrying out of caste. to them, this was their entitlement gone astray. that our girls atleast, have a more realistic and appreciative view of the world outside, while our boys & their parents, appear to be uncomfortably wiggling their behinds while it is up in the air, and head (ofcourse) inside the ground, a l'ostrich!

the purpose of sangom/nara, in my view, is not for the sake of saidevo or swami, but for the numerous youngsters, who might be confused and to whom, such enlightened viewpoints, are more than a shot in the arm. this too has been objected by the likes of other members here, and i too have been 'warned' of being a 'corrupting' influence on our youth. if so be it, i stand proud among the illustrous company of sangom/nara.

thank you.
 
... Even people like Shri Nara, Sangom when they bring out points about the ills of the caste system are doing exactly the same thing. .
Dear Shri kkumar29, I don't understand this, what "exactly the same thing" are we doing? This is not clear to me.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shri kkumar29, I don't understand this, what "exactly the same thing" are we doing? This is not clear to me.

Cheers!

Shri Nara,

What I meant when I said you were doing the same things, was magnifying the issues to drive the point home, not that the point itself was invalid. My statement was more to the effect that in a debate/discussion people lay more stress on certain issues that support their POV.

K. Kumar.
 
This is in response to both Kunjuppu and Sangom's posts. I agree that it is imperative that the present and future generations of tamil brahmins understand the history of tamil nadu and their role in it (both good and bad). I also agree that they should encourage the good parts and shed the bad ones. The dravida parties are irrelevant to the discussions because they have no interest in uplifting or supporting the tambram community. The point I was trying to make was, just because the message comes from a party most tambrams despise, we should not ignore the message if there is any truth in it.

Mr. Sangom, I think you are doing a wonderful job of highlighting this behavior and I don't think you should stop participating. It is your postings that have drawn my attention to the stuff written in our scriptures. I used to think such ills morphed in because of the passage of time and the original purpose was lost. Your postings have proven to me other wise.

Shri Kunjuppu, I was not passing any judgement on Shri Nara's or Sangom's views. I was just trying to highlight the process that is used in a debate. I strongly believe that such draw backs should be definitely exposed so people can make their own minds.

In my case my exposure to Hinduism was only through brahmins bias because I was born as one. As I grew up I started drawing my own conclusions and follow what I think is right and discard what I think is wrong. I do this based on my moral values and not be anyone's decree. To me such discussions add value in either firming up my own convictions or shaking my convictions directing me to change.

Thanks for indulging me.

K. Kumar.
 
Shri Nara,

What I meant when I said you were doing the same things, was magnifying the issues to drive the point home, not that the point itself was invalid. My statement was more to the effect that in a debate/discussion people lay more stress on certain issues that support their POV.

K. Kumar.
Thank you Shri K. Kumar, but this leaves me unsatisfied. If I am magnifying anything I would like to know what it is, so that I can correct myself. It does not do any good to simply tell me that I am magnifying, which, you explain is what you meant when you said I was "doing exactly the same thing" as DK and DMK. More specifics will be helpful.

Cheers!
 
Shri Nara,

I suppose you are right, magnifying may not be the right word. It does imply that there is less substance and more size. I suppose I could have phrased my sentence better. I could have used words like drawing attention or giving more space to the illness of the caste based system.

I apologize for my indiscretion.

K. Kumar
 
....I suppose you are right, magnifying may not be the right word. It does imply that there is less substance and more size. I suppose I could have phrased my sentence better. I could have used words like drawing attention or giving more space to the illness of the caste based system.
Thank you once again.

My perspective in these matters is probably the most extreme around here. I consider religion to be more of a bane than boon to humanity. Whatever little delusional solace it may have offered to the faithful, religion did extract a heavy price from believers and non-believers alike. We don't need religion, a superior power, or fear of hell fire to act in a compassionate and loving manner. These emotions are encoded in our genes.

IMO, the most egregious part of what we call Hinduism is its caste system. There is nothing good about it. One cannot be neutral about it. The sooner it is in our past, the better it is for everyone.

I feel each one of us must take the initiative and jettison caste from our own individual lives, without making excuses like the government is asking for caste, or the other NBs won't leave caste, and all other lame excuses. We need to do this for our own sake. No government will come and insist that one has to follow caste rules in social or religious activities. No dominant NB caste can come and tell us how to think. Let them do whatever they want. Let us be loving and compassionate to all.

Cheers!

p.s. I am moved by your graceful apology, it was not required
 
This is in response to both Kunjuppu and Sangom's posts. I agree that it is imperative that the present and future generations of tamil brahmins understand the history of tamil nadu and their role in it (both good and bad). I also agree that they should encourage the good parts and shed the bad ones. The dravida parties are irrelevant to the discussions because they have no interest in uplifting or supporting the tambram community. The point I was trying to make was, just because the message comes from a party most tambrams despise, we should not ignore the message if there is any truth in it.

Mr. Sangom, I think you are doing a wonderful job of highlighting this behavior and I don't think you should stop participating. It is your postings that have drawn my attention to the stuff written in our scriptures. I used to think such ills morphed in because of the passage of time and the original purpose was lost. Your postings have proven to me other wise.

Shri Kunjuppu, I was not passing any judgement on Shri Nara's or Sangom's views. I was just trying to highlight the process that is used in a debate. I strongly believe that such draw backs should be definitely exposed so people can make their own minds.

In my case my exposure to Hinduism was only through brahmins bias because I was born as one. As I grew up I started drawing my own conclusions and follow what I think is right and discard what I think is wrong. I do this based on my moral values and not be anyone's decree. To me such discussions add value in either firming up my own convictions or shaking my convictions directing me to change.

Thanks for indulging me.

K. Kumar.

Shri Kumar,

Thank you for your encouraging words. My earlier decision to present my views and now,to stop writing more and to withdraw from this discussion, both arose out of my good will for our community. I felt in the beginning that there would be many people who would be benefitted by an impartial knowledge of our past, our shortcomings, blunders committed by us as a community, etc., and try to ponder over these things calmly and then decide whether there is any need to change our individual outlook as also that of the community as a whole. Unfortunately, I find that my pov gets support from a few but for each of the supporters there are others who feel slighted and take it upon themselves as a sacred duty to defend our actions, mistakes etc., as if it is a noble task. In the process much heat is generated, more attacks are made on EVR/DK/DMK etc., on the one hand, and the NB upper castes on the other, without realizing that that is not the purpose of our discussion.

People here tend to forget that even this forum is not an exclusive and secret world of tabras only, and that in a democracy it is the numbers which count. I personally will like to take what is relevant to us tabras in the whole past, instead of finding fault with other numerically majority and, therefore, more powerful groups in a democratic set up. Defending our past here is of no use unless it can produce some tangible results in elections.

There is a proverb in Malayalam to the effect that a goat should not aspire for eating as much food as the elephant eats. In the same way comparing NBFCs or DK/DMK is mere idle talk, IMHO. If we are pragmatic we must learn the lessons from the past and try to shape our future for better results. If my posts help in this I have no objection to continue.
 
Sri Kunjuppu

"have you ever wondered why that we have attracted so much anger and despise by the very groups among whom we live? have you not felt alienated? is the legacy that you would like to leave to your child?"

Kunjuppu, some of the reasons for which we were hated didn't include a fault from us. We were hated for holding seats in the office, what went un-noticed is that we did so because we kept up with times.

As for your remaining post, I personally have no problem with IC marriages. But it doesn't go to say that I find no good in the TB culture or wish to shed my identity as a TB. Part of the reason TBs were hated is because we ourselves thought it was alright for people to hate us. If this was nipped in the bud when it came out with types of comments of EVR, things would have been better. And this was obviously a job for the previous generations which failed to do. Not that I am blaming them, it could have been difficult in the climate or the manner in which the propaganda was brought out against them.

The legacy our previous TB generation has left us is bad - a very bad image of "foreign" tamilians who were ritualistic chanters and a social evil. The fact is that they didn't quickly assert their position as 100 percent tamilians when we were alienated. For centuries together, we were tamilians, with no idea of us being secondary or anything. Today, merely because we have in-part a Sanskrit legacy its somehow a disrespect for anything native in the hyper mode of "tamilphilia".

Everything else of TBs and their history is sucked into oblivion in all this talk of casteism and use of "evil northern" Sanskrit. Worse forms of casteism exist than merely the denial into temples, that goes unspoken of here.

Cheers,
Vivek.
 
Sri Kunjuppu

"have you ever wondered why that we have attracted so much anger and despise by the very groups among whom we live? have you not felt alienated? is the legacy that you would like to leave to your child?"

Kunjuppu, some of the reasons for which we were hated didn't include a fault from us. We were hated for holding seats in the office, what went un-noticed is that we did so because we kept up with times.

As for your remaining post, I personally have no problem with IC marriages. But it doesn't go to say that I find good in the TB culture. Part of the reason TBs were hated is because we ourselves thought it was alright for people to hate us. If this was nipped in the bud when it came out with types of comments of EVR, things would have been better.

The legacy our previous TB generation has left us is bad - a very bad image of "foreign" tamilians who were ritualistic chanters and a social evil IMO. The fact that they didn't quickly assert their position as 100 percent tamilians when we were alienated is the issue. For centuries together, we were tamilians, with no idea of us being secondary or anything. Today, merely because we have in-part a Sanskrit legacy its somehow a disrespect for anything native by judgement of the hyper mode of "tamilphilia".

Cheers,
Vivek.
 
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