A Few Glimpses from South Indian History

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

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Talking about Brahmins and Tamil language let us look at Marathi Brahmins.

1. They consider Sanskrit to be Deva Bhasha and are dedicated to it. The oath at the time of convocation of the Pune University was in Sanskrit. ( I do not know whether this continues now). I remember the time when we sat at the back and mocked them shouting "Kimboho". Vijayalakshmi Pandit was the Governor/Chancellor then. The joke was that in Pune University even the rats are Brahmin. This was in early 1960s. No non-vegetarian allowed in the campus.

The Marathas started Shivaji University after independence where everything was in Marathi.

2. Unlike the Tamil Brahmins whose so called Domination (a Myth) depended on the British civil service and the British legal system, the Marathi Brahmins ruled over Maharashtra and a large parts of India. The Peshwas. The King was only a puppet.

3. Long standing fight between the Konkanastha and Desastha Brahmins.

4. Long standing fight between the Marathas and the Brahmins though they ruled together. The core of the problem was the classification of Marathas as Sudras by Brahmins.

5. The Konkanastha Brahmins spoke a language which had an affinity to Konkani. Of course they did claim that Konkani was a dialect of Marathi. This is the main reason for not recognizing Konkani for a long time till the people of Goa went on an agitation.

6. The non-Brahmin movement has a very strong following in Maharashtra. Mahatma Phule was a pioneer in fighting for the rights of the Dalits. Shahu Maharaj, the Raja of Kolhapur was a well known reformer. Then we all know about Babasaheb Ambedkar.

7. The Marathi Brahmins were one of the staunchest supporters of the Aryan/Dravidian theory. Bala Gangadhar Tilak wrote about the origins of Aryans.

8. There was a massacre of Brahmins in Maharashtra following the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi. One of those undocumented forgotten chapters in history.

The dice would seem to be totally loaded against the Marathi Brahmins.

But how did they fare after independence.

Maharashtrais dominated by Marathas who are in a majority. The Brahmins still do play a role though their influence is limited. Their influence is reduced to a great deal.

But there is no persecution of Brahmins unlike Tamil Nadu. The Marathi Brahmin does not feel hounded unlike the Tamil Brahmins.

All the reasons adduced above for the alienation of Tamil Brahmins does not make much sense if we view the Marathi Brahmins.

I have discussed the particular reasons in my earlier thread. But you have to accept that religion played a major role in the alienation of Tamil Brahmins.

By the way I wonder what would have happened if Sathyamurthi had lived and become the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. He was the only Brahmin politician who had contact with the masses and who could win votes. All the other Brahmin politicians were lawyers and administrators who had no touch with the people.

It was the biggest mistake of the Congress to have boycotted the 1920 election, thus giving a walk over to the Justice party.

Tamil Nadu is unique in India that the entire set of rulers now were collaborators of the British and who observed Independence day as Thukka Thinam with Black badges.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

In support of what I have already stated, namely, that the TB on their own volition considered Tamil as inferior and separated themselves from other Tamils, I give below an excerpt from the article, "Notes on the Transformation of 'Dravidian' Ideology: Tamilnadu, c. 1900-1940, Author(s): M. S. S. Pandian, Social Scientist, Vol. 22, No. 5/6 (May - Jun., 1994), pp. 84-104. The text in brown in the following excerpt is from the book by N. Subramanian, "The Brahmin in the Tamil Country", Ennes Publications, Madurai (1989).

Intimately linked to the hegemonic location of the Brahmin both in the civil and the political societies, was his bilinguality. This bilinguality was unique and was distinguished by its contempt for Tamil, the language of the ordinary, and its simultaneous enthusiasm for English and Sanskrit, both languages of distance and exclusion, and hence, of power: 'They spoke a colloquial Tamil Brahmin dialect, a slang, at home; and impeccable English in office and from on public fora; they praised Sanskrit and learnt enough to make a local show of it. They disdained to speak in their mother tongue on public occasions and never felt ashamed to admit that they could not express themselves sufficiently well in Tamil. Some of them became noted great orators in English but none of them could speak a single sentence in Tamil without using a high percentage of English words or loading it with a still higher percentage of Sanskrit. They know the Sanskrit lore, became soaked in Western intellectual tradition but remained totally ignorant of Tamil literary or cultural traditions'. The reason for this particular kind of Brahmin bilinguality is not far to seek. While English facilitated his access to and authority in the colonial 'political society', Sanskrit, which was celebrated as Deva Bhasha or the language of the celestials, reinforced his hegemony in the 'civil society'.
​

Cheers!

We all know M.S.S. Pandian's leanings and the colouration he gives to various facts. I think he is also was a Fellow at University of Chicago which encourages all such elements...

Such people go silent about the sacrifices of many a wealthy tamil brahmins underwent for nation's freedom, notable being one N.S.Varadachari (an apt moniker NO SHIRT was given as we was bare-chested all time) and Vaidyanatha Iyer What about the Tamil savant U.Ve Swaminatha Iyer and his acolyte Ke. Va. Ja? Did they speak tamil laced with English? Nattukotai Chettiars, saivaites never had animosity towards Brahmins. In fact they even supported Veda Patasalas. The biggest patronage for the Chidambaram Nataraja temple and the Dikshitars comes from them.
It must be remembered that Justice Party was not in favour of independence for strange reasons.

Brahmins consider both Tamil and Sanskrit worthy of adoration and some of them feel (including me) blessed for this rare inheritance. A friend of mine a retired professor of English who perhaps has greater love and proficiency for Tamil was to lament that whenever some of the old foggies (of DK variety) see a Brahmin speak in chaste tamil, they are put-off as their entrenched notions take a knocking.

Rgds.,

P.S.: Things are changing though and it has to be welcomed. U.Ve.Sa's birthday was recently observed by the T.N. Govt.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Sri SwamiTaBra Ji,

You have said:
"The tragedy of Gandhi was that he displeased the Hindus, but could not convince the Muslim masses."

Which 'Hindus' you speak of? Almost every Hindu home sported his Photo after independence and still does. I don't know what you are talking about. Did your family not join in the veneration of Gandhi Ji?

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS Ji,

If a father is unhappy with son or vice-versa do they invariably split?

As I pointed out in the other thread (Vetti Pechu) Gandhi's fasting and his insistence on the Govt. to release Rs. 50 Cr. to Pakistan that was launching an attack on Kashmir certainly displeased the Hindus who were in know of things.

Sri Nachinarkiniyam could perhaps explain better the rise of Hindu Mahasabha.

Rgds.,

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Tamil has been neglected for centuries. Tamil Nadu is the only state which was ruled by Non-Tamilians for more than 300 years. The Vijayanagar empire, Marathas. Unfortunately it is still ruled by the Non Tamils who speak Telugu, Kannda and Malayalam at home. Had a Malayali Chief Minister who is portrayed as a Tamilian.

Goebbels could have learnt a lot from the Tamil Nadu politicians. He was a kindergartner when compared to the politicians of Tamil Nadu.

The Srilankan Tamils have no problem in accepting Tamil Brahmins as Tamilians. The web site which gave details of the contribution of the Brahmins to Tamil and which contained many articles and research material about the developments in Tamil Nadu (tamilnation.org) was closed in 2010 under governmental pressure.

 

[sangom]

You are selectively missing out the famous "Raghupathi raghav raja ram" in which there is a line "iswar allah tere naam".

What about the opposition to "Vande mataram"? Does the use of imagery in a Hindu majority land to be condemned? Though I have not read M.J. Akbar's latest book, I know that he thinks quite differently from most other muslims. So also is Arif Mohammed Khan.

The more the Congress and Gandhi yielded to the separatist forces during the pre-independence era, more they became emboldened.

If you look at the muslims of South Asia, Indonesia is a case in point for fusion of Hinduism and Islam. Rama is a hero in Indonesia. Then what is the problem for them here...

I agree only to the extent that Gandhi erred in his dealings with Jinnah during the early part of 20th century.

Regards,
Swami

Dear Shri Swami,

I am not giving my views on any of the points but only reproducing what Maulana Azad said. The question whether the one line "isvar Allah Tero naam" must have convinced the muslim masses is, IMHO, not for any one else but those muslims alone to decide, and that too at that particular time in the history of this land.

Even assuming that your observation "The more the Congress and Gandhi yielded to the separatist forces during the pre-independence era, more they became emboldened." is correct as borne out by later developments, I do not think anyone of us can confidently assert that the course of history would have been the same if Gandhiji had seen the wisdom in separating religion from politics at that point.

Rama in Indonesia is just a hero—like kovalan, arjuna, bheema or any other literary hero—not a god, not a deity to be worshipped as incarnation of the very Absolute. Is it possible to do that here in India?

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Talking about Brahmins and Tamil language let us look at Marathi Brahmins.

1. They consider Sanskrit to be Deva Bhasha and are dedicated to it. The oath at the time of convocation of the Pune University was in Sanskrit. ( I do not know whether this continues now). I remember the time when we sat at the back and mocked them shouting "Kimboho". Vijayalakshmi Pandit was the Governor/Chancellor then. The joke was that in Pune University even the rats are Brahmin. This was in early 1960s. No non-vegetarian allowed in the campus.

The Marathas started Shivaji University after independence where everything was in Marathi.

2. Unlike the Tamil Brahmins whose so called Domination (a Myth) depended on the British civil service and the British legal system, the Marathi Brahmins ruled over Maharashtra and a large parts of India. The Peshwas. The King was only a puppet.

3. Long standing fight between the Konkanastha and Desastha Brahmins.

4. Long standing fight between the Marathas and the Brahmins though they ruled together. The core of the problem was the classification of Marathas as Sudras by Brahmins.

5. The Konkanastha Brahmins spoke a language which had an affinity to Konkani. Of course they did claim that Konkani was a dialect of Marathi. This is the main reason for not recognizing Konkani for a long time till the people of Goa went on an agitation.

6. The non-Brahmin movement has a very strong following in Maharashtra. Mahatma Phule was a pioneer in fighting for the rights of the Dalits. Shahu Maharaj, the Raja of Kolhapur was a well known reformer. Then we all know about Babasaheb Ambedkar.

7. The Marathi Brahmins were one of the staunchest supporters of the Aryan/Dravidian theory. Bala Gangadhar Tilak wrote about the origins of Aryans.

8. There was a massacre of Brahmins in Maharashtra following the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi. One of those undocumented forgotten chapters in history.

The dice would seem to be totally loaded against the Marathi Brahmins.

But how did they fare after independence.

Maharashtrais dominated by Marathas who are in a majority. The Brahmins still do play a role though their influence is limited. Their influence is reduced to a great deal.

But there is no persecution of Brahmins unlike Tamil Nadu. The Marathi Brahmin does not feel hounded unlike the Tamil Brahmins.

All the reasons adduced above for the alienation of Tamil Brahmins does not make much sense if we view the Marathi Brahmins.

Yes, Pune is very much a brahmin city, though with the advent of industries the demography and the outlook is fast changing. No one from Pune (I have lived there) has told me that there was anything as massacre following Gandhiji's assassination, but some killings were there.

Konkanasta brahmins consider themselves superior to other brahmins. Tilak, Gokhale, Ranade, Savarkar, Apte, Godse, Parchure are Konkanastha. In recent time we have had Sathe and Gadgil in the Congress.

In Maharashtra during the British rule only two communities were visible -- Parsees and the Chitpavans.

I'm not very sure when you seem to say Pune University existed before Independence. If I remember right it celebrated its silver jubilee in late 1980s or in early 1990s.

Could you please detail the rise of Nationalistic spirit amongst the Marathi brahmins in the early part of 20th century?

I profusely thank you for disabusing the notion held by many including Sri Sangom that it the conduct of Tamil Brahmins that alienated them from the rest by aptly juxtaposing with Marathi brahmins' relationship with other Marathis.

With regards,
Swami

P.S.: Our family has fond memories of Pune.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Intellectual Prostitutes

Responding to a toast to the "free press," near the end of his illustrious career, John Swinton, former Chief of Staff of the New York Times, told an assembly of newsmen at the New York Press Club:

There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinions out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job.

If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalist is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of the rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes. ​

When recently I heard a National "Public" Radio commentator deny that any content-limiting pressure whatever was imposed upon NPR personnel, I said: "Ha, Ha, Ha."

The PressL Intellectual Prostitutes

This is true of Historians, Research scholars and intellectuals in general. The name of the game is political correctness.

Please do remember this when you read the articles in the press, a new book, research papers.

 

[sangom]

Talking about Brahmins and Tamil language let us look at Marathi Brahmins.

1. They consider Sanskrit to be Deva Bhasha and are dedicated to it. The oath at the time of convocation of the Pune University was in Sanskrit. ( I do not know whether this continues now). I remember the time when we sat at the back and mocked them shouting "Kimboho". Vijayalakshmi Pandit was the Governor/Chancellor then. The joke was that in Pune University even the rats are Brahmin. This was in early 1960s. No non-vegetarian allowed in the campus.

The Marathas started Shivaji University after independence where everything was in Marathi.

2. Unlike the Tamil Brahmins whose so called Domination (a Myth) depended on the British civil service and the British legal system, the Marathi Brahmins ruled over Maharashtra and a large parts of India. The Peshwas. The King was only a puppet.

3. Long standing fight between the Konkanastha and Desastha Brahmins.

4. Long standing fight between the Marathas and the Brahmins though they ruled together. The core of the problem was the classification of Marathas as Sudras by Brahmins.

5. The Konkanastha Brahmins spoke a language which had an affinity to Konkani. Of course they did claim that Konkani was a dialect of Marathi. This is the main reason for not recognizing Konkani for a long time till the people of Goa went on an agitation.

6. The non-Brahmin movement has a very strong following in Maharashtra. Mahatma Phule was a pioneer in fighting for the rights of the Dalits. Shahu Maharaj, the Raja of Kolhapur was a well known reformer. Then we all know about Babasaheb Ambedkar.

7. The Marathi Brahmins were one of the staunchest supporters of the Aryan/Dravidian theory. Bala Gangadhar Tilak wrote about the origins of Aryans.

8. There was a massacre of Brahmins in Maharashtra following the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi. One of those undocumented forgotten chapters in history.

The dice would seem to be totally loaded against the Marathi Brahmins.

But how did they fare after independence.

Maharashtrais dominated by Marathas who are in a majority. The Brahmins still do play a role though their influence is limited. Their influence is reduced to a great deal.

But there is no persecution of Brahmins unlike Tamil Nadu. The Marathi Brahmin does not feel hounded unlike the Tamil Brahmins.

All the reasons adduced above for the alienation of Tamil Brahmins does not make much sense if we view the Marathi Brahmins.

I have discussed the particular reasons in my earlier thread. But you have to accept that religion played a major role in the alienation of Tamil Brahmins.

By the way I wonder what would have happened if Sathyamurthi had lived and become the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. He was the only Brahmin politician who had contact with the masses and who could win votes. All the other Brahmin politicians were lawyers and administrators who had no touch with the people.

It was the biggest mistake of the Congress to have boycotted the 1920 election, thus giving a walk over to the Justice party.

Tamil Nadu is unique in India that the entire set of rulers now were collaborators of the British and who observed Independence day as Thukka Thinam with Black badges.

Shri Nacchinarkiniyan,

You forget one crucial aspect. That is Marathi, and most of the north Indian languages are very akin and beholden to sanskrit. Marathi, particularly, I think, has the second largest share of sanskrit roots and words—next only to Bengali— and that makes Marathi of the common masses and the deva bhasha of the brahmans not much different. That is not at all the case with Tamil.

Secondly, today the brahmans in Mumbai and other bigger cities, do not show themselves off as an exclusive group, inter-marriages are increasing, etc. Hence, the Maharashtrian Brahmans (MBs) has very little of complaint to make. Thirdly, the MBs took to factory labour even as early as the late 1950's when it was found that other avenues which were easily available to them in earlier days, was no more to be found. I have worked as a factory worker during 1960-65 in Mumbai and then knew many MB workers in that category.

 

[sangom]

I profusely thank you for disabusing the notion held by many including Sri Sangom that it the conduct of Tamil Brahmins that alienated them from the rest by aptly juxtaposing with Marathi brahmins' relationship with other Marathis.

With regards,
Swami

P.S.: Our family has fond memories of Pune.

Dear Shri Swami,

Kindly see my post. I think Shri Nacchinarkiniyan has compared two incomparables and also not clearly said that the Maharashtrian Brahmans had a smooth time.

 

[sangom]

The PressL Intellectual Prostitutes

This is true of Historians, Research scholars and intellectuals in general. The name of the game is political correctness.

Please do remember this when you read the articles in the press, a new book, research papers.

Shri Nn,

Here we may have to consider what is "truth" itself? If the truth as perceived by A does not gel with the pet ideas and beliefs of B, then A is not telling the truth as far as B is concerned; truth transcending such colourations can be had only from direct evidence such as video clippings (without edits) and records (untampered). So, after all what can be said about the high sounding toast is that it is yet another opinion.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sangom,

Only one point which you might know. The Brahmins of Pune never considered Bombay to be part of their state. They had contempt for Mumbai and its people. The Marathi people of Mumbai are not representative of the general Marathi population.

I remember in 1968 when Shiv Sena called for an Agitation against South Indians. They were talking about the domination of South Indians especially in the senior and top positions in companies. But this appeal made no sense in Poona where all the senior and top positions of companies (not many then) were always held by Marathi people.

Marathi Vs Sanskrit. This was what the Bhakthi movement was all about in Maharashtra. Sant Gyaneshwar and Thukaram and others.

By the way the states where anti-Hindi sentiment was strong are Gujarat and Bengal. Anti-Sanskrit sentiment is still very strong in Bengal.

All people love their language. Marathi people do not love Sanskrit because it is a mother of their language. This is a fallacy.

Exclusive group? I only wish you had been in Pune in the 1960s. The superiority complex of the Chitpavan Brahmins is well known. They held even the Desasthas in contempt. Then CKP were treated like scheduled caste leave alone the Marathas. Tamil Brahmins were preferred over Marathas for appointment in Pune University.

Things have changed today.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Shri Swami,

Kindly see my post. I think Shri Nacchinarkiniyan has compared two incomparables and also not clearly said that the Maharashtrian Brahmans had a smooth time.

Sir,

You have all along attributed is the "sense of superiority" and the "hauteur " behaviour of tambrams for towards them. The same attributes are valid with Marathi brahmins with even greater measure.

Comparing brahmins of like nature is apt. Marathi brahmins' behaviour and outlook has lot in common with TamBrahms. Like us they also occupied high ranks in bureaucracy, learnt English early and so on with the onset of British rule. Only the cuisine differs.

Mahatma Phule's bitterness towards brahmins is no less strong, Yes as Sri. Nach'kiniyan and Sri Vivek say there has been no persecution of the nature we have had in T.N.

Rgds.,
Swami

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Sangom,

Exclusive group? I only wish you had been in Pune in the 1960s. The superiority complex of the Chitpavan Brahmins is well known. They held even the Desasthas in contempt. Then CKP were treated like scheduled caste leave alone the Marathas. Tamil Brahmins were preferred over Marathas for appointment in Pune University.

Things have changed today.

One Sivaramkrishna Sastri, who was respected for his knowledge of mimamsa and tarka and was a lecturer/reader at Annamalai University during the 1950s when my father studied there was well received at the Bhandarkar Institute and he served there was some time.

Chitpavans used to proud of their light skin and their blue-coloured eyes too. Actess Archana Joglekar is just a typical Konkanasta.

Rgds.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

SwamiTaBra,

Please see my article. I have given the links. I had done some research for posting that article. You can also see the discussion. The question raised here have been answered there. Both the article and the discussion could be very boring to say the least.

These questions have been raised again and again. We have had at least 300 discussions regarding these points.

I do not think I will spend any more time posting the same answers all over again.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

SwamiTaBra,

Please see my article. I have given the links. I had done some research for posting that article. You can also see the discussion. The question raised here have been answered there. Both the article and the discussion could be very boring to say the least.

These questions have been raised again and again. We have had at least 300 discussions regarding these points.

I do not think I will spend any more time posting the same answers all over again.

Sir,

Sorry.,

Are you referring to the links to your three part "Countering anti-brahminism?"
I don't find any links in your post.

Rgds.,

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Sir,

Sorry.,

Are you referring to the links to your three part "Countering anti-brahminism?"
I don't find any links in your post.

Rgds.,

Yes. Those are the links. This is the link to the original discussion.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/sociology/1331-why.html

Frankly many of the older members do not post any more because they are bored reading the same thing over and over again.

If we could prepare an index of topics it would be nice. The members could be asked to check the index and read similar topics before starting a new one.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

You could see this discussion also.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/1914-case-tamil-archanai.html

 

[SwamiTaBra]

You could see this discussion also.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/1914-case-tamil-archanai.html

Thanks a lot. I go into the links as and when I get time.

But on the question of archanai in Tamil, it is an dispute between the astikas, what locus standi does DK, calling itself an athiest group have to come into the picture? But this is the peculiarity of the Tamil politics, I suppose.

Rgds.,

 

[suraju06]

Dear Sangom Sir,
Yours words are within quotes and my answers are given below each quote.

From 1947 till about the early 1960's and to some extent in the mass expansion of nationalised banks (1969 was bank nationalisation) you will find almost all tabras getting appointed. There was no dearth of employment for them at the entry stage like junior clerks, junior officers etc. LIC was another behemoth which absorbed a large number of brahmin candidates in those days. All this you can verify by just looking around and finding how many of my generation got into these avenues.
In IAS and similar posts (except perhaps IPS which was not a preferred category of Tabras) brahmins got in not only from TN but also from WB, Orissa etc. Hence it is oversimplification to say that "brahmins have been banished from all important decision making roles" immediately after 1947. Even in the case of TN, I think you can stretch it back to 1967 maximum, not earlier.

During these twenty years what steps were made by the "machinery" to deliver development to the downtrodden? Very little.[/quote]
I don’t think you are saying a junior officer’s post in a bank or LIC has a very important decision making role. I was talking about the decision making powers of the Parliament and the politicians in state legislatures.It is a fact that many Brahmins got employment in banks and LIC in the wake of the unprecedented expansion of banks after nationalization. But then other dominant castes too got a very good share of these appointments. Why you are not talking about that? Or is it your contention that all the Manager’s posts in banks, LIC and RBI were filled exclusively with Brahmins and they failed to implement the Government’s reservation policy deliberately? Similarly in IAS too every dominant caste had its share of selections. The only community which was left out in all this is the dalit community.

During these twenty years what steps were made by the "machinery" to deliver development to the downtrodden? Very little.

This is a question which should be addressed to the powerful dominant communities and not to Brahmins. The “machinery” consisted of dominant caste politicians and Officers.

So, let us not discuss in a partisan way as if mistakes are never with Brahmans. That is my humble request.

Mistakes are not only with Brahmins. Rather the share of Brahmins in the mismanagement of the reservation as a tool for the upliftment of dalits was minimal.

And, I for one, will not bet that had Brahmans been given the power and facilities to carry out development of SCs/STs, they would have done any better than the "dominant castes" which you refer to. (Actually I am not clear about whom you refer to by this term - in the Parliament.)

You are talking about a hypothetical situation. Let us talk about the realities. What have the dominant castes who had all the powers (to make legislations and implement them) done to implement reservation properly and uplift dalits? You know pretty well what are the dominant castes I am talking about because both of us are not new to this topic in this forum. To make it simple I am telling you again: as far as the parliament is concerned it is the powerful mandal communities and as far Tamilnadu is concerned it is the powerful pillais, mudalis, thevars, gounders, naickers et al.

I consider that caste-based discrimination, denial of opportunities for rising up in life, practice of untouchability, denial of entry into the areas of the higher groups and temples, etc., arose oout of religious tenets and nothing else. If you feel differently, kindly substantiate your point/s.

I differ with you on this. If you ask the common man on the street, who is practicing casteism, about wherefrom he got the authority to behave this way you will hear nothing about Vedas or religious tenets. He may not even know there exist some thing called a veda. This being so how do you insist that it is the religious tenets which are the culprits even in the present times? It appears you are stuck at some point in time and find it difficult to move ahead. In the ancient times it may be true that the varnas had their origins in Vedas. We do not have any reliable information about the society at that time and who formulated the Vedas. We do not know the reason for categorizing people into the four varnas. Since then much water has flown under the bridge. Except for the names (even in this there is a lot of confusion) the original ‘Varnaism’ has undergone vast changes to morph into casteism. So every time we quote religious tenets as the reason for casteism we are staging a farce in which we resurrect the main villain who is just a symbolic demon and we slay him again symbolically and then go home to live our ‘life’ happily everafter as usual.

Your rhetoric "Who is bothered about the religious tenets? If people(hindus) are really bothered or committed to following the religious tenets, are they following all other tenets which are there in the same religion (like muslims do it with total loyalty)?" is very much irrelevant, I feel. If someone does something as per religion is it necessary that he should follow every dot and comma of religion before religion can be faulted? For that matter on what basis do you make the blanket pronouncement that all Muslims do follow religion with total loyalty?

You did not get me correctly. My question was not a rhetorical question. It is a question which is automatically begged when someone says religious tenets are the root cause of casteism. I certainly expect an answer to my question. Let me elaborate it. When someone says religious tenets are responsible for denying entry into a temple or for practicing untouchability etc., there are umpteen passages in the same religious source book which also talk about the purity of Atman and what not. Why don’t you take them. Why harp on only the varnas of times beyond our horizon which we do not understand.

I request you not to get emotional when posting; irrespective of whose ideas are correct (yours or mine) the discussion here is not going to change government action or history even a wee bit.

Sangom Sir, I am cool. I never get emotional for such matters. Only I have some healthy disrespect for entrenched ideas which become holy cows as time passes.

I don't know whether Maoists get linked to caste in my writing; I feel not. You feel, it seems to me, that it has nothing to do with non-delivery of developmental benefits, and nothing to do with castes; but exploitation is a sure sign of neglect and will imply that the people did not derive any benefits from Governmental programmes. In case you feel that this reading of the situation by me is erroneous, kindly elucidate.

If you bring in caste into the maoists uprising it is a disrespect you are inflicting on those rebels. When a government dominated by dominant castes from parliament to the local police chowki usurps all the wealth of the nation to themselves by legal and illegal means, the harassed poor people take to arms and we have these maoists. This is what I had said. I do not understand how you have interpreted it the way you have done.

We are lucky today that Brahmans do not enjoy much power. But I presume you are young and do not know the nepotism resorted to by Brahmins when they had the chance.

Sangom Sir, What I am saying is nepotism is a weakness/evil common to all humans and this includes the power dominant castes also. To single out Brahmins is unfair.

I am talking here mainly of the targeted beneficiaries which is SCs, STs and the OBC/MBC; I somehow do not get so much exercised by other FCs sneaking in, though I condemn it as much as I can.

My contention is that the OBCs/MBCs/xxCs (Gujjars are fighting for a separate nomenclature for them) castes do not deserve the reservation as they were perpetrators of atrocities including the untouchability on the panchamans. It is a fraud. If economic criteria is to be applied it should have been applied across the community and not on selected communities. If social backwardness was the reason, they were in the forefront of implementing the untouchability and so did not deserve the benefit. FCs sneaking in is not what I am talking about. I am talking about ineligible tormentors of dalits sneaking in using their strength of numbers in the parliament.

But a section of the membership here seems to be more enraged by the other FCs getting some out of the way benefit while we tabras are unable to do the same; I feel that if only the same loophole was available for tabras also, all this emotion and opposition would not have come about!

How sad!! I am not responding to this.

 

[Nara]

....Rama in Indonesia is just a hero—like kovalan, arjuna, bheema or any other literary hero—not a god, not a deity to be worshipped as incarnation of the very Absolute. Is it possible to do that here in India?

Not in all of Indonesia, only in Bali which is 90% Hindu.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

.....Goebbels could have learnt a lot from the Tamil Nadu politicians. He was a kindergartner when compared to the politicians of Tamil Nadu..

This is a very unfortunate comment. One more example of Goldwin's Law.

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sangom.

Here is my take on your summation. These are my views and opinions which might be criticised, with no obligation on my part to reply.

(Actually, I don't find four separate points, but only one refrain which is that TBs were great, innocent, pure Tamils and deserved to be on the apex of the Tamil society for ever, just because of the above reasons. That this did not happen and anti-Brahmin agitations which pulled the TBs down from their high perch, is as inexcusable a crime as any of the worst in human history, and every morally upright TB has to hold this view; those who do not are all morally bankrupt and deserve the worst condemnation.)

If you differ from the above summarisation, kindly elucidate.

• TBs were great, innocent, pure Tamils...

great?
Yes, undoubtedly, for no community can afford to belittle itself at any point of time due to the shortcomings of some of its members.

innocent?
To a large extent perhaps even in the past, because no community would like another community to call it demonic because of the past. As KRS, Vivek, and Swami has reiterated, the present generation of ******* ARE innocent--albeit indifferent to their svadharma--so there should not be burdened with the sins of their community's past. It is also wrong IMO to exhort them to shed their ******* identity.

pure Tamils?
I wonder why any question about the Tamizh historicity of ******* and brahminical genealogy of their families are repeatedly posed by the reformers here.

As I said in my post 80 to Smt.HappyHindu, "no one has any right to suggest that such lineage can and must be questioned in every case." As regards Tamizh historicity, it has been proved that the political leaders of the leading parties in TN today are not Tamils, so such question is frivolous--even perverted IMO--against *******.

• deserved to be on the apex of the Tamil society for ever...
******* deserve--and are expected IMO--to be on the apex of Tamizh society, in the area of Hindu religion and veda dharma. The present day *******, specially the youth, do not bother about their social status.

• every morally upright TB has to hold this view; those who do not are all morally bankrupt and deserve the worst condemnation...(as regards the anti-brahmin agitation).

Vivek is surely wrong--even adamant--to have persisted in his name calling, but he has a point:

that the reformist ******* here, although their concern of for dalits and the downtrodden is understandable, blindly support the DK/DMK way of social justice. In their blind support, they not only fail to see the contributions of *******, but deliberately ignore them with a tendency to jeer the members who try to highlight such contributions.

Vivek did explain in post no.211, to the effect that it was his personal conviction that such one-sided perception lacked in morality (meaning righteousness/fairness), but the way he sounded it was wrong.

*****

I shall try to answer your questions "how much Tamil the TBs were/are?".in another post.

 

[Nara]

I was addressing one of Vivek's assertions that TBs are being forced to choose between being B or Tamil. I cited a passage from M.S.S. Pandiyan's journal article. There is more in this article which I will post at a later time. But, for now, I am unable to agree that MSSP's article cannot be accepted because we know what his leanings are, or, that not everything written in articles are true. The first on is a complete non sequitur and the second one is a tautology.

As Shri Sangom has already pointed out, there is no comparison between Marathi and Tamil. Marathi, AFAIK, is a derivative of Sanskrit, but Tamil is an independent classical language from which Sanskrit is said to have borrowed its very grammatical structure. George Hart of UC Berkely has an article on it, I will look for it and provide the reference if I find it.

It is undeniable that many Brahmins have contributed greatly to Tamil literature from its very start, and, it is also undeniable that for Brahmins Tamil is merely a vernacular, but Sanskrit is Deva Basha. They hold that all great ideas expressed in Tamil are derived from Sanskrit texts. Such a characterization, if made about Marathi, may be true and may be acceptable to all Marathis. But that is all it is, that by itself cannot be shown as evidence of nefarious anti-Brahmin designs by NB Tamils. For Tamils, this is a deliberate attempt by Brahmins to rob Tamil of its legitimate greatness.

Brahmin contributions to Tamil literature not withstanding, TBs have demonstrated by their actions that Sanskrit occupies the place of veneration that Tamil can never be. TBs have the right to hold such a view, I don't deny that, all I am saying is, because of this fact, Vivek's claim that TBs are being forced to choose between being B or Tamil, has no merit.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Dear Sangom Sir,
Yours words are within quotes and my answers are given below each quote.

During these twenty years what steps were made by the "machinery" to deliver development to the downtrodden? Very little.

I don’t think you are saying a junior officer’s post in a bank or LIC has a very important decision making role. I was talking about the decision making powers of the Parliament and the politicians in state legislatures.It is a fact that many Brahmins got employment in banks and LIC in the wake of the unprecedented expansion of banks after nationalization. But then other dominant castes too got a very good share of these appointments. Why you are not talking about that? Or is it your contention that all the Manager’s posts in banks, LIC and RBI were filled exclusively with Brahmins and they failed to implement the Government’s reservation policy deliberately? Similarly in IAS too every dominant caste had its share of selections. The only community which was left out in all this is the dalit community.

This is a question which should be addressed to the powerful dominant communities and not to Brahmins. The “machinery” consisted of dominant caste politicians and Officers.

Mistakes are not only with Brahmins. Rather the share of Brahmins in the mismanagement of the reservation as a tool for the upliftment of dalits was minimal.

Dear Shri Suraju,

I do not think there is any point in our further discussing the points because our perceptions will not synchronize. Still, I am making one or two observations.

My point was that, confining ourselves to TN, the 'machinery' for implementing the developmental programmes did not change much in its composition till the 1967 elections. Even before Independence, it was a feature of the Brahman officials to not even visit the slums or basties of the lower castes to ensure that the desired implementation did happen there—reason, aversion to getting ritually polluted! After Independence this reason could not be mouthed but the attitude remained unchanged and that is one reason for the neglect of the areas by all officials and probably, diversion of the funds. In the setting up of all such precedents Brahmans showed the way when they were at the top of the hierarchy.

You are talking about a hypothetical situation. Let us talk about the realities. What have the dominant castes who had all the powers (to make legislations and implement them) done to implement reservation properly and uplift dalits? You know pretty well what are the dominant castes I am talking about because both of us are not new to this topic in this forum. To make it simple I am telling you again: as far as the parliament is concerned it is the powerful mandal communities and as far Tamilnadu is concerned it is the powerful pillais, mudalis, thevars, gounders, naickers et al.

I do not agree to the method of blaming the FCs who got power for the last 50 or 60 years, closing our eyes conveniently to the omissions and commissions of Brahmans down the ages. Your argument may be very clever in getting political mileage but, unfortunately, whatever mileage we Brahmans may get will only be within this minority group and not outside; I for one, feel that is not going to help even politically in the long run and will only diminish what little good will Brahman individuals now enjoy in the society. Repeating your type of argument can, at best, make you popular among a section of the membership of this forum but it will lead ultimately to our taking the same ostrich-like attitude to developments and land the Brahman community in yet another unwanted slide-down, IMO.

 

[happyhindu]

If you bring in caste into the maoists uprising it is a disrespect you are inflicting on those rebels. When a government dominated by dominant castes from parliament to the local police chowki usurps all the wealth of the nation to themselves by legal and illegal means, the harassed poor people take to arms and we have these maoists. This is what I had said. I do not understand how you have interpreted it the way you have done.

This is totally wrong. The maoists resent being marginalized for being "low-caste". Their angst is that the government did not do anything for them because they are "low-caste". They did not take to arms merely for being poor-people. Caste system figured even amongst the LTTE cadres because the majority were so-called "dalits" or "low-castes". I feel Maoists and Tamil Tigers are only the tip of the ice-berg. The inequalities of the caste-system will end up figuring in almost all seperatists and anti-establishment movements.

My contention is that the OBCs/MBCs/xxCs (Gujjars are fighting for a separate nomenclature for them) castes do not deserve the reservation as they were perpetrators of atrocities including the untouchability on the panchamans. It is a fraud. If economic criteria is to be applied it should have been applied across the community and not on selected communities. If social backwardness was the reason, they were in the forefront of implementing the untouchability and so did not deserve the benefit. FCs sneaking in is not what I am talking about. I am talking about ineligible tormentors of dalits sneaking in using their strength of numbers in the parliament.

Why should not Gujjars deserve reservations? What atrocities did they involve in? Who are the ineligible dalits?

Take a look at these Gujjars:
1) Gujjar man: Gujjar Man And His Boy Looking For Medicine by Travelpod Member Lraleigh | TripAdvisor?
2) Gujjar woman: Nomad Gujjar Woman, India | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

These are semi-nomads who make a living out of selling milk. Most also became farmers. Their economic condition is bad.