A Few Glimpses from South Indian History

[sangom]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

abracadabra

The word 'abracadabra' used by me has since become one of four points for consideration. I tried to locate my original post wherein I used this word, but was not successful. So I am not venturing into why I used it. Still, a bit of explanation from my side may be relevant, I feel.

'abracadabra' means 1. a magic word, written in amulets, 2. a spell or conjuring word, 3. gibberish (Found in a second cent. poem by Q. Serenus Sammonicus)—Chambers's Twentieth Century Dictionary; -1961 edition); 'gibberish' means unintelligible talk. Hence, "abracadabra" is not 'nonsense' as appears from the reactions to my use of that word in many subsequent posts here in this forum. One version of its meaning is "It’s from the Aramaic phrase avra kehdabra, meaning “I will create as I speak”." Pl. see here.World Wide Words: Abracadabra

Coming to the actual context in which I used it to denote how the (Tamil) Brahman's sanskrit mantras would have appeared to the original Tamil people, it can be taken as 'gibberish' or unintelligible talk. This cannot be found fault with since even our ṛgvedic ṛṣis themselves used the term mṛdhravāk to refer to the unintelligible speech of the dasyus. In the same way the sanskrit mantras of the Tamil Brahmans must have been mṛdhravāk to most Tamil NB people, and may even be today.

Why go that far? Even for a large percentage of Tamil Brahmans who learn and recite the mantras—including many of the Tabra purohits, many mantras will be unexplainable.

1. I give below a few examples of some mantras which can be classified as real 'abracadabra' or unintelligible, prima facie itself :

om̐ a i e la hrīṃ ha sa ka ha la hrīṃ sa ka la hrīṃ (pañcadaśākṣarī)

hum phaṭ svāhā

hā vu hā vu hā vū ... (in taittirīyopaniṣad)

hā bu hā bu hā bu bhā bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhā bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhā bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ |
hā bu hā bu hā bu brahma jajñānaṃ prathamaṃ purāstāt |
vi sīmatas suruco vena āvāt |
sa budhniyā upamā asya vā yi sthāḥ |
satas ca yonim asataś ca vā yi vaḥ |
hā bu hā bu hā bu bhā bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhā bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhā bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ bhaṃ |
hā bu hā bu hā vu vā |
brahma devānāṃ bhāti parame vyoman brahma devānām bhāti parame vyoman brahma devānām bhāti parame vyoman ||
(I refer to the portions in bold type.) (jaiminīya araṇyageyagāna 12.9)

2. There are semi-intelligible items, i.e., these are composed of individual words with clear sense but the total meaning is unclear and different interpretations in an oblique manner are given by different commentators. But most of the Brahmans who may be reciting will find themselves in difficulty if they are asked to give the meaning extempore, if they have not prepared themselves before hand.

Examples:-

i) ekā ca me tisraśca me pañca ca me sapta ca me nava ca me ekādaśa ca me trayodaśa ca me pañcadaśa ca me saptadaśa ca me navadaśa ca me ...etc. (camaka praśna -11).

ii) agniśca ma indraśca me somaśca ma indraśca me savitā ca ma indraśca me... (camaka praśna -6)

3. It is a fact that the major percentage of Tamil Brahmans (and perhaps other Brahmans as well) do not have good grounding in sanskrit. So, although they learn many mantras by rote, their awareness of the meaning of the mantras will, at best, be superficial and for them also much of the mantras may be as unintelligible as an unknown language.

4. Most of the sacrificial ritual in vedic (pūrva mīmāṃsa) compass work on the underlying principle of the ability of the priests to call the various devas and the supposed ability of the fire (agni) to carry the oblations to those deities. The simple and straight forward question/doubt as to why the devas who are invited with svāhā and are supposed to be coming to the sacrificial altar direct, are unable to consume the oblations directly might probably have been unanswerable because the devas would not "consume" the oblations of ghee, soma juice or vapā or omentum, (caul), offered in the different sacrificial rituals; the notion that these offerings when made into fire only get conveyed to the devas obviates that difficulty. If viewed in this background, the vedic rituals conform to the definition of abracadabra as "I will create as I speak"—the priests claimed that whatever they claimed to be happening was the truth.

 

[sangom]

Sangom,

Only one point which you might know. The Brahmins of Pune never considered Bombay to be part of their state. They had contempt for Mumbai and its people. The Marathi people of Mumbai are not representative of the general Marathi population.

I remember in 1968 when Shiv Sena called for an Agitation against South Indians. They were talking about the domination of South Indians especially in the senior and top positions in companies. But this appeal made no sense in Poona where all the senior and top positions of companies (not many then) were always held by Marathi people.

Marathi Vs Sanskrit. This was what the Bhakthi movement was all about in Maharashtra. Sant Gyaneshwar and Thukaram and others.

By the way the states where anti-Hindi sentiment was strong are Gujarat and Bengal. Anti-Sanskrit sentiment is still very strong in Bengal.

All people love their language. Marathi people do not love Sanskrit because it is a mother of their language. This is a fallacy.

Exclusive group? I only wish you had been in Pune in the 1960s. The superiority complex of the Chitpavan Brahmins is well known. They held even the Desasthas in contempt. Then CKP were treated like scheduled caste leave alone the Marathas. Tamil Brahmins were preferred over Marathas for appointment in Pune University.

Things have changed today.

Shri Nn,

Though what all you say may be facts, the relevance to the subject matter does not come out. In the scenario given by you, the point that we should consider is what happened to the Chittapavan Brahmans? When a Marathi Brahman priest utters some mantras are they as alien to a native marathi speaker as it would be to a Tamil who is ignorant of sanskrit?

Did not the Bhakti literature practically supplant the Brahman scriptures to a large extent, even in Brahman homes? To what extent Tabras have followed suit and replaced sanskrit mantras with Tamil ones in their homes and group worships?

 

[sangom]

namaste shrI Sangom.

Here is my take on your summation. These are my views and opinions which might be criticised, with no obligation on my part to reply.



• TBs were great, innocent, pure Tamils...


pure Tamils?
I wonder why any question about the Tamizh historicity of ******* and brahminical genealogy of their families are repeatedly posed by the reformers here.

As I said in my post 80 to Smt.HappyHindu, "no one has any right to suggest that such lineage can and must be questioned in every case." As regards Tamizh historicity, it has been proved that the political leaders of the leading parties in TN today are not Tamils, so such question is frivolous--even perverted IMO--against *******.


*****

I shall try to answer your questions "how much Tamil the TBs were/are?".in another post.

Dear Shri saidevo,

I have tried to make it clear that by the term "pure Tamil" "I am not going into the genetic aspects because that science was not in the scene when these developments took place." (here)

Perhaps you omitted that post.

 

[sangom]

Thanks a lot. I go into the links as and when I get time.

But on the question of archanai in Tamil, it is an dispute between the astikas, what locus standi does DK, calling itself an athiest group have to come into the picture? But this is the peculiarity of the Tamil politics, I suppose.

Rgds.,

Dear Shri Swami,

It is not that DK alone is for Tamizh arcanai I suppose; it seems to be a govt. decision and government is govt., as long as it reflects the majority. And what is wrong in using Tamil for pooja instead of sanskrit?

 

[saidevo]

namaste shrI Sangom.

I am trying to deal with ... entirely different era, people, culture, religion and belief system.

To me, this sounds like a typical DK/DMK rhetoric. Although I am not much capable due to my limited knowledge of Tamizh sangham literature, I am sure that most of the perceptions in your above rhetoric can be disproved from the Tamizh texts themselves. So, I would request you to justify the perceptions in your above statement with example verses from the Tamizh texts of the period you are talking about.

Just take the small and very routine mantra of narmadayai nama? prata? ... ; how is it that the Tamil Brahmans who claim to be one hundred percent Tamil, go all the way north to narmada for protection from poisonous snakes? Is it because none of the rivers in the Dramila region—kaveri, krishna, godavari, tungabhadra—do not have that power?

Again, let us take "imam me gange yamune sarasvati sutudristomagm? sacataparu??iya |...". Here also not one rivulet south of the Vindhyas gets included!

• Even before the Tamil brahmin starts his sandhyA vandanam, he recites a mantra during his snAnam--bath:

gange cha yamune chaiva godAvarI sarasvatI
narmade sindhu kAveri jalesmin sannidhim kuru.

This mantra is also chanted while doing kalasha pUjA. I wonder how you could ignore it.

As to the sacredness and power of the rivers of South India, one can easily find out references in the PurANAs. Some samples:

• The legend of the sacred river KAvErI is found in the chapters 11-14 of the Skanda PurANam, and this portion is known as 'kAverI purANam'. The river KAverI is also known as the dakShiNa gangA (*1).

• The river GodAvarI flowing from the mountain Brahmagiri, was due to the penance of Gautama RShi, so just like GangA is known as BhAgIratI, GodAvarI is known as Gautama GangA. (*2)

• ganga godavari reva nadyo mukti pradas tu yah
nivasanti sa tirthas tah salagrama sila jale
koti tirtha sahasrais tu sevitaih kim prayojanam
tirtham yadi bhavet punyam salagrama silodbhavam

(HARI BHAKTI VILASA 3/293,294 from PADMA PURANA)

The water which washed Shalagram Shila includes the water from the Ganga, Godavari, Reva and other liberating rivers. If this bath water from the Shalagram Shila is available, then there is no need for thousands of other places of pilgrimage. (*3)

Notes:
01. Kaveri River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Origin of Kaveri River, Indian River

02. Shri Badrinath - Shri Kedarnath Temple Committee
03. shaligramHBV

Many such examples can be provided which clearly shows that as far as the Tamil Brahmins were, and are concerned, their loyalty is not to anything Tamilian but that they take solace from sources outside Tamil Nad. However there is no let up in speaking "vada venkadam ten kumariyayitai tamilkurum nallulakam" whenever it suits the TBs to do so.

This again seems to me a sweepting statement with more prejudice than substance. The very first example for their loyalty to Tamizh that comes to my mind are the Tamizh vaiShNavas of shrI RAmAnuja sampradAya. Another is the example of Chidambaram DIkShitars, which is already discussed here:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...rs-chidambaram-also-tamil-brahmins-too-3.html

******* have published a book in five volumes titled "AruntoNDu AtRiya Tamizhaga AndhaNargaL' which documents the service done by numerous ******* in every walk of life. I shall try to compile some samples from these volumes and post it in a separate thread as soon as I can.

As you have rightly said, "It is apparent, right now itself, that our points of view on the topic are opposite." So let us agree to disagree on the subject and what we discuss, let us try to stick to examples from the Tamizh and Sanskrit scriptures and the teachings of sages.

 

[sangom]

namaste shrI Sangom.



To me, this sounds like a typical DK/DMK rhetoric. Although I am not much capable due to my limited knowledge of Tamizh sangham literature, I am sure that most of the perceptions in your above rhetoric can be disproved from the Tamizh texts themselves. So, I would request you to justify the perceptions in your above statement with example verses from the Tamizh texts of the period you are talking about.

Dear Shri saidevo,

Your suggestion looks strange to me. On the one hand you admit that you are not "much capable due to my limited knowledge of Tamizh sangham literature", you are very "sure that most of the perceptions in your above rhetoric can be disproved from the Tamizh texts themselves"!! And then, you want me to "justify the perceptions in your above statement with example verses from the Tamizh texts of the period you are talking about."!!! Shri Saidevo, if this is not an excellent example of Brahmanism and Brahman superiority what else can be? As a fair proposal you could have said that you are not giving any views but are not agreeing to mine. This is atrocious, I would say.

• Even before the Tamil brahmin starts his sandhyA vandanam, he recites a mantra during his snAnam--bath:

gange cha yamune chaiva godAvarI sarasvatI
narmade sindhu kAveri jalesmin sannidhim kuru.

This mantra is also chanted while doing kalasha pUjA. I wonder how you could ignore it.

First this is not mandatory for sandhya in all sutras. Second this is a later concoction which still is "aaryaavarta-centric" (six for north and one reserved seat for south—a made-up sloka of later times). If you have to prove that Tamil Brahmins were ab initio from Tamil land, we would find all seven river names from south, something like this:

kṛṣṇā godāvarī tuṃgabhadrāca amarāvatī |
koḷḷiḍam kabanīkūvam jalesmin sannidhim kuru ||

As to the sacredness and power of the rivers of South India, one can easily find out references in the PurANAs. Some samples:

• The legend of the sacred river KAvErI is found in the chapters 11-14 of the Skanda PurANam, and this portion is known as 'kAverI purANam'. The river KAverI is also known as the dakShiNa gangA (*1).

• The river GodAvarI flowing from the mountain Brahmagiri, was due to the penance of Gautama RShi, so just like GangA is known as BhAgIratI, GodAvarI is known as Gautama GangA. (*2)

• ganga godavari reva nadyo mukti pradas tu yah
nivasanti sa tirthas tah salagrama sila jale
koti tirtha sahasrais tu sevitaih kim prayojanam
tirtham yadi bhavet punyam salagrama silodbhavam

(HARI BHAKTI VILASA 3/293,294 from PADMA PURANA)

The water which washed Shalagram Shila includes the water from the Ganga, Godavari, Reva and other liberating rivers. If this bath water from the Shalagram Shila is available, then there is no need for thousands of other places of pilgrimage. (*3)

Notes:
01. Kaveri River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Origin of Kaveri River, Indian River

02. Shri Badrinath - Shri Kedarnath Temple Committee
03. shaligramHBV

Puraana (meaning 'old') was an example of Brahman cleverness (too clever by half, perhaps!) to their latest concoctions to please various native belief systems into the vedic-brahmanic religion. One clue as to how the sanskrit-adoring brahmana got into a controlling priesthood of original Tamil places of worship can be discovered if someone does some research on the term "adhyayana bhatta". So, just inclusion of the name Kaveri and some praising of rivers—the benefit to the brahman from these eulogies can be found in the vrata kalpa manjari which will talk about tulaakaaveri snaanam etc.

This again seems to me a sweepting statement with more prejudice than substance. The very first example for their loyalty to Tamizh that comes to my mind are the Tamizh vaiShNavas of shrI RAmAnuja sampradAya. Another is the example of Chidambaram DIkShitars, which is already discussed here:
http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...rs-chidambaram-also-tamil-brahmins-too-3.html

******* have published a book in five volumes titled "AruntoNDu AtRiya Tamizhaga AndhaNargaL' which documents the service done by numerous ******* in every walk of life. I shall try to compile some samples from these volumes and post it in a separate thread as soon as I can.

Regarding Vaishnava Azhvars etc., Shri Nara has said repeatedly in many threads here. It is apparent that vadama brahmans usurped the early Azhvaars' ideology, supplanted with a caste-hegemonic one and turned it all topsy-turvy.

As you have rightly said, "It is apparent, right now itself, that our points of view on the topic are opposite." So let us agree to disagree on the subject and what we discuss, let us try to stick to examples from the Tamizh and Sanskrit scriptures and the teachings of sages.

Why should there be such a limitation? Xenophobia?

 

[narayanaswamyc]

I read this in dinamalar. Please go thro it if you know Tamizh or get read by who knows.....
ஒரு தியாகி இனி உருவாக மாட்டான்!




1921-ல் மகாகவி பாரதி மறைந்தபோது மிகக் குறைவானவர்களே வந்திருந்தனர் என்பது வருத்தத்துடன் அடிக்கடி நினைவுகூரப்படும் செய்தி. ஆனால், 90 ஆண்டுகளுக்குப் பிறகு, இப்போதும்கூட நிலைமையில் பெரிய மாற்றம் எதுவுமில்லை.
2011, ஜனவரி 2 ஆம் தேதி ஈரோடு மாவட்டம் கோபிசெட்டிபாளையத்தில் மிகப் பெரிய தியாகியொருவர் மறைந்தார், தனது 94-வது வயதில். மறைவு கேட்டு இல்லத்துக்கு வந்து இருந்தது சுமார் 25 பேர். நூறு பேர் வந்து சென்றவர்கள். மயானத்தில் நூற்றிச் சொச்சம்.
வரலாறும் இந்த சமுதாயமும் மறக்கக்கூடாத, ஆனால் மறந்துவிட்ட எத்தனையோ விடுதலைப் போராட்ட தியாகிகளில் ஜி.எஸ். லட்சுமண அய்யரும் ஒருவர்.
ஒருகாலத்தில், நகர்மயமானதன் பரபரப்புக்குள் வீழாத கோபி என்ற கோபிசெட்டிபாளையத்தில் பஸ்ஸிலிருந்து இறங்கி, அய்யர் வீடு எங்கே என சின்னக் குழந்தையைக் கேட்டால்கூட அவருடைய வீட்டுக்கு அழைத்துச் சென்று விட்டுவிடும். சுற்றுவட்டாரப் பகுதிகளில் அவருக்கு அந்தளவுக்கு மதிப்பு, மரியாதை.
ஜாதி, மதப் பாகுபாடு எதுவுமின்றி இந்தப் பகுதியிலுள்ள அனைத்து வீடுகளிலும் அய்யரைப் பார்க்கலாம். சுகம், துக்கம் எதுவானாலும் அழைப்பு வந்துவிடும், அய்யர் அங்கேயிருப்பார்.
இவருடைய தந்தை டி. சீனிவாச அய்யர், அந்தக் காலத்தில் கோபி, பவானி, கொள்ளேகால் இரட்டை மெம்பர் தொகுதியில் சட்டமன்ற உறுப்பினராக இருந்தவர்.
1931-ல் மகாத்மா காந்தியின் அழைப்புக்கு இணங்க காங்கிரஸ் தலைவர்களும் தொண்டர்களும் ஹரிஜன மக்களை வீட்டுக்குள் அழைத்தனர், விருந்துகள் வைத்தனர், தோட்டக் கிணறுகளில் தண்ணீர் எடுத்துக்கொள்ளச் செய்தனர். லட்சுமண அய்யரின் வீட்டுக்குள்ளும் ஹரிஜனங்கள் அழைக்கப்பட்டனர். விருந்து வைக்கப்பட்டது. சும்மா விடுமா, சொந்தமும் சமூகமும். 1931 முதல் 36 வரை அய்யரின் குடும்பம் சமூக பகிஷ்காரம் செய்யப்பட்டது. உயர் ஜாதியினர் புறக்கணித்தனர்.
1938 முதல் 44 வரையிலான காலகட்டத்தில் வெள்ளையனே வெளியேறு உள்ளிட்ட பல்வேறு போராட்டங்களில் பங்கேற்ற அய்யர், கோவை, அலிப்பூர், பெல்லாரி, வேலூர், பவானி எனப் பல்வேறு சிறைகளில் மூன்றரை ஆண்டுகளைக் கழித்திருக்கிறார். மனைவி, மாமனார், மாமியாரெல்லாமும்கூட இவருடன் போராட்டத்தில் ஈடுபட்டுச் சிறை சென்றிருக்கின்றனர்.
1944-ல் வார்தா சென்று மூன்று நாள் தங்கியிருந்த லட்சுமண அய்யரிடம், நீ பிராமணன்தானே, விடுதலைப் போராட்டத்துக்கு நிறைய பேர் இருக்கிறார்கள், ஊருக்குத் திரும்பியதும் ஹரிஜன சேவை செய்யத் தொடங்கு, அதுவே என்னுடைய விருப்பம் என்று ஆணையிட்டிருக்கிறார் மகாத்மா. கடைசி வரையிலும் காந்தியின் கட்டளையை நிறைவேற்றுவதில் கவனமாக இருந்தார் அய்யர். துப்புரவுத் தொழிலாளர்களை ஊருக்குள்ளே அழைத்துவந்து குடியிருப்புகளைக் கட்டித் தந்தவர் அய்யர்.
அரசியல் தலைவர்களைப் பொருத்தவரையில் அந்த நாள்களில் ஒரு சத்திரம் போலத்தான் இவருடைய வீடு. எந்நேரமும் சமையல் நடந்துகொண்டிருக்கும். சித்தரஞ்சன் தாஸ், பாபு ராஜேந்திர பிரசாத், ராஜாஜி, அருணா ஆசப் அலி, டாக்டர் அன்சாரி, சீனிவாச அய்யங்கார், காமராஜர், பெரியார் எனத் தலைவர்களின் பட்டியல் நீண்டுசெல்லும்.
1969-ல் காங்கிரஸ் பிளவுற்றபோது காமராஜரின் ஸ்தாபன காங்கிரஸில் பணியாற்றத் தொடங்கி, ஜனதா தளத்திலும் தொடர்ந்தார். ஆனால், அவருடைய செயல்பாடுகள் அன்றாட அரசியலுக்கு அப்பாற்பட்டவையே.
பிரிட்டிஷ் காலக் குற்றப்பரம்பரைச் சட்டத்தை ரத்து செய்தபோது, ராஜாஜி கூறிய அறிவுரைப்படி, நரிக்குறவ இனத்தைச் சேர்ந்த ஒரேயொரு சிறுவனுடன் இவர் தொடங்கிய விடுதியில் இப்போது சில நூறு மாணவ, மாணவியர். இவர்களில் பெரும்பாலானவர்கள் தலித் சமுதாயத்தைச் சேர்ந்தவர்களே.
அந்தக் காலத்தில் இவர்கள் குடும்பத்துக்கு சுற்றுவட்டாரப் பகுதிகளில் நஞ்சையும் புஞ்சையுமாக 380 ஏக்கர் நிலம். ஆனால், இப்போது அவர் குடியிருந்த வீடுதான் மிச்சம். ஒரு வீட்டைத் தவிர, இரு மகன்களுக்கும் ஒரு சென்ட் நிலம்கூடத் தரவில்லை. இவர் கொடையென வழங்கிய இடங்களில்தான் இன்றைக்குக் கோபிசெட்டிபாளையத்திலுள்ள பல கல்வி நிறுவனங்கள் இயங்கிக் கொண்டிருக்கின்றன.
வைரவிழா மேனிலைப் பள்ளி, பழனியம்மாள் பள்ளி, டி.எஸ். சாரதா வித்தியாலயம், விவேகானந்தா ஐ.டி.ஐ... இன்னும், ஸ்ரீராமபுரம் ஹரிஜன காலனி, துப்புரவுத் தொழிலாளர்களுக்கான காலனி... அவருடைய மறைவுக்காக ஒரேயொரு பள்ளி மட்டும் விடுமுறை அறிவித்தது. கமிட்டி உறுப்பினர் (?) மரணத்துக்காக விடுமுறை வழங்குவதில்லை என்பது கொள்கை முடிவு என ஒரு பள்ளி நிர்வாகம் தெரிவித்துவிட்டது! (கோடி கோடியென விலை உயர்ந்துவிட்ட கோபி நகருக்குள் லட்சுமண அய்யருக்கென இப்போது ஒரு சென்ட் இடம்கூட இல்லை).
தக்கர் பாபா வித்தியாலயம் என்ற தொடக்கப் பள்ளி, இரு பால்வாடிகள், இரு குழந்தைகள் காப்பு மையங்கள் எல்லாமும் இவர் தொடங்கி நடத்தியவை. எல்லாமே இலவச சேவை. விவேகானந்தா ஐ.டி.ஐ. என்ற தொழிற்கல்வி நிலையமும் உண்டு. அரசு மருத்துவமனையில் இவருடைய தந்தை பெயரில் ஒரு வார்டு உண்டு, நிலம் வழங்கியது பற்றி உறுதிப்படுத்த முடியவில்லை.
1952 முதல் 55 வரையிலும் 86 முதல் 92 வரையிலுமாக இரண்டு முறை கோபி நகர்மன்றத் தலைவராகவும் இருந்தவர் அய்யர். 1955-ல் இவர் கொண்டுவந்ததுதான் கோபி நகர் குழாய்த் திட்டம். புஞ்சைப் புளியம்பட்டி செல்லும் சாலையில் கோபிக்கான நீரேற்று நிலையம் இருக்கும் இடமும்கூட அய்யருடையதுதான்.
1986-ல் இவருடைய காலத்தில்தான்- கோபிசெட்டிபாளையத்தில் - முதன்முதலாக மனிதக் கழிவை மனிதன் சுமக்கும் அவலம் முற்றிலுமாக ஒழிக்கப்பட்டது. அரசு நிதியுதவியுடன் அனைத்து உலர் கழிப்பிடங்களும் நீரடிக் கழிப்பிடங்களாக மாற்றப்பட்டன.
ஆனால், அத்தகைய அய்யருடைய மரணத்தின்போது அவரால் பயன் பெற்ற, பலன் பெற்ற பெரும்பாலானோர் வரவில்லை. அன்றைக்குக் கோபிசெட்டிபாளையம் வழியேதான் மாவட்ட ஆட்சியர் சென்றார், வரவில்லை. எம்.பி. வரவில்லை, எம்.எல்.ஏ. வரவில்லை. நகர்மன்றத் தலைவிகூட வரவில்லை. கோட்டாட்சியர் மட்டும் வந்தார், வாழ்நாள் முழுவதும் வழங்கிக் கெட்ட தியாகிக்கு அஞ்சலி செலுத்த அல்ல, தியாகிகள் செத்தால் வழங்கப்படும் ரூ. 2 ஆயிரம் உதவித்தொகையை வழங்குவதற்காக (அந்தத் தொகையையும் உடனே ஹரிஜன விடுதிக்குத் தந்துவிட்டனர் குடும்பத்தினர். அய்யரின் விருப்பப்படியே அவருடைய கண்களும் தானமாக வழங்கப்பட்டன).
(தி.மு.க.விலிருந்து என்.கே.கே. பெரியசாமி, சுப்புலட்சுமி ஜகதீசன், ம.தி.மு.க.விலிருந்து கணேசமூர்த்தி, பா.ஜ.க.விலிருந்து சி.பி. ராதாகிருஷ்ணன், மார்க்சிஸ்ட் கட்சியிலிருந்து பி.ஆர். நடராஜன், ஜனதாதளத்தின் குருமூர்த்தி ... போன்றோர் வந்தனர். ஒரு தனியார் கல்லூரி மாணவிகளும், ஹரிஜன விடுதி மாணவிகளும் வந்து அஞ்சலி செலுத்தினர்.)
போர்த்தலாமா, கூடாதா என்பதை உறுதி செய்ய முடியாத குழப்பத்தில் அவருடைய சடலத்தின் மீது தேசியக் கொடிகூட போர்த்தப்படவில்லை.
பிராமணக் குடும்பங்களில் மரணத்துக்காக அவ்வளவாக அழ மாட்டார்கள் என்பார்கள். ஆனால், லட்சுமண அய்யரின் சடலம் கிடத்திவைக்கப்பட்டிருந்தபோது ஒரேயொரு பெண் மட்டும் கடைசி வரை கதறியழுது கொண்டிருந்தார். அவர், அய்யர் வீட்டில் அவருக்குப் பணிவிடை செய்துவந்த ஹரிஜனப் பெண்!
1995, ஜூலையில் ஒருநாள் அவரைப் பார்க்கக் கோபிக்குத் தேடிச் சென்றபோது அவரில்லை. வீட்டுக்கு வெளியே ஒரு நோட்டுப் புத்தகம் தொங்கிக் கொண்டிருந்தது. எழுதிவைத்துவிட்டுச் செல்லுங்கள், அவர் உங்களைத் தேடி வந்துவிடுவார் என்றார்கள் அருகே இருந்தவர்கள். எழுதிவைத்துவிட்டுப் பேருந்து நிலையம் சென்று காத்திருந்தநேரத்திலேயே, ஒருவர் தேடி வந்துவிட்டார், அய்யர் உங்களைக் கையோடு அழைத்துவரச் சொன்னார் என்றபடி! நடமாட முடிந்தவரை அய்யர் அவ்வாறே ஒவ்வொருவரையும் தேடிச் சென்றே வாழ்ந்து கழித்துவிட்டார்.
அன்றைய தினம் நீண்ட நேரம் கடந்தகால நினைவுகளைப் பேசிக்கொண்டிருந்த லட்சுமண அய்யர் சொன்ன வரிகள் இப்போதும் நினைவிலாடுகின்றன: இன்று இந்தியாவிலேயேகூட கையெடுத்துக் கும்பிடக்கூடிய தலைவர்கள் யாரும் இல்லை. அத்தனை பேரும் ஆடம்பரத்திலும் விளம்பரத்திலும் சுயநலத்திலும்தான் மயக்கம் கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள். காந்தியைப் போல, காமராஜரைப் போல ஒரு தலைவர் இல்லை. இன்று எந்த வழியிலாவது சம்பாதிப்பதையும் பிழைப்பதையுமே பெரிதாகக் கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள் தலைவர்கள். தவிர, தியாகத்தைப் பெரிதாகக் கருதும் மக்களும்கூட நாட்டில் இல்லாமல் போய்க்கொண்டிருக்கிறார்கள்.
அன்று அவர் சொன்னது எத்தனை பெரிய உண்மை! முன்னாள் சாராய வியாபாரியான ஒன்றியச் செயலர் ஒருவரின் மாமியார் இறந்துபோனால்கூட நூறு கார்கள் வரிசைபோட, ஆயிரம் பேர் திரண்டிருப்பார்கள். ஏனென்றால் அவரால் ஆனதும் ஆகக்கூடியதும் எத்தனையெத்தனையோ! காலாவதியாகிப்போன ஒரு தியாகியின் சாவுக்குச் செல்வதில் யாருக்கு என்ன ஆகிவிடப் போகிறது. ஆனால், ஒன்றுமட்டும் நாம் மறந்துவிடக்கூடாது, இவற்றையெல்லாம் கவனித்துக்கொண்டிருக்கும் இந்த சமுதாயத்திலிருந்து ஒரு தியாகிகூட இனி உருவாக மாட்டான், ஜாக்கிரதை.

 

[Nara]

Shri Sangom said:

....Amidst this sea of ordinary masses was a small group, holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion, scriptures in an alien language and which, at every other step, would convince an impartial student that this small group was living at best as ambassadors of an entirely different era, people, culture, religion and belief system.

Shri Saidevo responded:

...To me, this sounds like a typical DK/DMK rhetoric. Although I am not much capable due to my limited knowledge of Tamizh sangham literature, I am sure that most of the perceptions in your above rhetoric can be disproved from the Tamizh texts themselves. So, I would request you to justify the perceptions in your above statement with example verses from the Tamizh texts of the period you are talking about.

I don't understand what value is added by the observation that Shri Sangom's statement sounds like DK/DMK rhetoric. If it was said in a positive sense, that is one thing, but I am certain it was not meant as a compliment.

Leaving that aside, before trying to prove or disprove, we need to understand what Saidevo is challenging. I would like to deconstruct Shri Sangom's statement for convenience.

1. Amidst this sea of ordinary masses was <brahmins were> a small group,
2. <brahmins> holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion,
3. <brahmin> scriptures in an alien language and which,

He then derived the following conclusion predicated upon the above three claims.

.... which, at every other step, would convince an impartial student that this small group was living at best as ambassadors of an entirely different era, people, culture, religion and belief system
​

To me, the three points are patently obvious needing no separate proof. Brahmins are still a small group, they do hold allegiance to a different culture so much so that they don't want it diluted and want to preserve it at all costs, and their scripture are indeed in an alien language. Perhaps Saidevo is talking only about the religion, but I think not.

This again seems to me a sweepting statement with more prejudice than substance.

To say that Brahmins have more allegiance to Sanskrit than Tamil is not sweeping and not borne out of prejudice. Here, let me quote from MSS Pandiyan's article where he cites two Brahmins:

V. Krishnaswamy Aiyar - Indian Review, January 1911 and April 1910):
"Sanskrit is the parent of all Indian literature including Tamil; for much that is claimed in Tamil as original is indebted to conceptions which are entirely to be found in the field of Sanskrit literature"
​

Sivasamy Aiyar - (New India, 19 November 1914):
"As the language which enshrines the highest ideas of Indo-Aryan civilization, as the language in which the highest achievements of the Hindu mind in the region of philosophic speculation and religion have been recorded, as the language to which most of what is in the vernacular literatures of India owes its inspiration, and as the language in which the ordinances that regulate our social life and institutions to this day have been written, a knowledge of it is an essential element of culture to every Hindu... "
​

We all know that these are not the views of just some two random Brahmins, these are views of almost all of them. They all had one foot in the secular world and the other in the religious. No prize to anyone who can guess what the mindset of the ones with both feet firmly planted on the religious side.

The very first example for their loyalty to Tamizh that comes to my mind are the Tamizh vaiShNavas of shrI RAmAnuja sampradAya. Another is the example of Chidambaram DIkShitars,

SVs do accord equal status to Tamil and Sanskrit, which the members of the Dravidian movement acknowledge and appreciate. However, they also embrace the Varna/Jati system and Manu Dharma Shashthras with as much vigor as the Smarthas. This puts them right back in the rut. Had they maintained the same revolutionary spirit as of the Azhvars, the story would have been different.

The Diskshitars represent a minuscule minority among the Brahmins. Whatever they may be doing in private, their public record on Tamil is horrific. Just a few years ago they refused to permit Othuvar from reciting Tamil verses. They got into a lot of trouble because of that.

******* have published a book in five volumes titled "AruntoNDu AtRiya Tamizhaga AndhaNargaL' which documents the service done by numerous ******* in every walk of life.

The question is not whether Brahmins have contributed to Tamil literature, they have. At the same time, it is undeniable that TBs in general hold anything of value found in Tamil to be borrowed from Sanskrit, that is the rub.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Sanskrit and Tamil - a perspective from Professor Hart

I had a brief exchange of e-mails with Professor Hart of UC Berkley in 1998. I summarized the exchange in a different forum. I am reproducing it here now.

Prof. Hart has a Ph.D. in Sanskrit from Harvard and an accomplished Tamil scholar. An interesting trivia, he is married to a TB and is not unsympathetic to TBs -- i.e. his inclinations need not be suspected.

From Professor Hart:

• Neither Sanskrit nor Tamil are particularly old in the world scheme of things. Sanskrit is documented earlier than Tamil.
• Sanskrit has borrowed quite as much from Dravidian as Dravidian has from Sanskrit. Tamil has borrowed more words from Sanskrit than Sanskrit has from Dravidian.
• It is a trivial thing for a language to borrow vocabulary. But when it uses another language's syntax to form the way it expresses things, and uses another language's phonology for its sounds, that is really profound influence.
• The fact is, Sanskrit HAS been influenced in this way by Dravidian. Of course, some Dravidian languages have also borrowed Sanskrit sounds (bh, etc.) But none of the four Dravidian languages I have read has borrowed anything from Sanskrit syntax that I can identify.
• Much of the syntax of Sanskrit is Dravidian, (emphasis mine) and it has a large Dravidian vocabulary. Its system of phonetics is profoundly influenced by Dravidian -- Indo-Aryan is the only IE family with retroflexes.
• Sanskrit also lacks some sounds that are available in Tamil. Tamil has short e and o, zh, R, n, and many permutations of stops -- e.g. k in akam -- which are not found in Skt. Actually both languages have about the same number of phonemes.
• The word Dravidian clearly comes from the word Tamil. This has been demonstrated time and time again -- the earliest occurrences of the word in IA are dramiDa ==> draviDa.
• I can attest that the grammar of Sanskrit is no more elegant or perfect than any other IE language. It very much resembles Russian, Latin, and Greek (which I have also read) -- to which it is closely akin.
• To my mind, Tamil and the other Dravidian languages have much more elegant and logical structures. Consider this: in Dravidian, you can take any sentence and turn it into an adverb, adjective, or noun by simply changing the ending on the verb. Then you can embed that sentence in any other sentence. The Dravidian relativizing system is extremely straight-forward and logical; the IE one -- shared by Sanskrit (and English) -- is quite messy and verbose.
• One could go on and on. I love Sanskrit, but I would never claim its zillions of nit-picking rules make it somehow an epitome of order and perfect structure. Sorry, but it's just not.
• I do agree about the symbiotic nature of Sanskrit and Tamil (and also other Indian languages). The fact is, Sanskrit and Tamil, while originally independent traditions, have from the earliest times formed one cultural stream, much as the Latin and the languages of Western Europe have.
• Sanskrit, like Tamil, is a very rich language and tradition. It has an enormous variety of writings, some of which are of great quality (which is true of most rich languages). It has been a carrier of cultural tradition, and it is endlessly interesting. But why is it that it is mindlessly glorified for all the WRONG reasons?
• Both languages are carriers of wonderful and rich intellectual and literary traditions. The only way to appreciate either language is to read these literatures and spend a lot of time pondering them.

 

[sangom]

I read this in dinamalar. Please go thro it if you know Tamizh or get read by who knows.....
ஒரு தியாகி இனி உருவாக மாட்டான்!




1921-ல் மகாகவி பாரதி மறைந்தபோது மிகக் குறைவானவர்களே வந்திருந்தனர் என்பது வருத்தத்துடன் அடிக்கடி நினைவுகூரப்படும் செய்தி. ஆனால், 90 ஆண்டுகளுக்குப் பிறகு, இப்போதும்கூட நிலைமையில் பெரிய மாற்றம் எதுவுமில்லை.
2011, ஜனவரி 2 ஆம் தேதி ஈரோடு மாவட்டம் கோபிசெட்டிபாளையத்தில் மிகப் பெரிய தியாகியொருவர் மறைந்தார், தனது 94-வது வயதில். மறைவு கேட்டு இல்லத்துக்கு வந்து இருந்தது சுமார் 25 பேர். நூறு பேர் வந்து சென்றவர்கள். மயானத்தில் நூற்றிச் சொச்சம்.
வரலாறும் இந்த சமுதாயமும் மறக்கக்கூடாத, ஆனால் மறந்துவிட்ட எத்தனையோ விடுதலைப் போராட்ட தியாகிகளில் ஜி.எஸ். லட்சுமண அய்யரும் ஒருவர்.

Shri Narayanaswamy,

After I read the news (I am hearing about him for the first time) I silently prayed for his departed soul—That's all I can do now, even though I do not know if souls exist etc.

This incident, and the great man's life experiences once again demonstrates, according to me, that our tabra community is not yet prepared to grant the rightful place for those of us who looked beyond the narrow clannish interests of our people. The many others who might have benefitted from Shri Lakshmana Iyer ought to have honoured him, too; that they did not, shows their mindset as well.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Shri Swami,

It is not that DK alone is for Tamizh arcanai I suppose; it seems to be a govt. decision and government is govt., as long as it reflects the majority. And what is wrong in using Tamil for pooja instead of sanskrit?

Sir,

I don't have any problem with Tamil archana. There is a Murugan temple near Vellore (N.A. Dt.) Ratnagiri which came up in early 1970s in which the kurukkals perform archana in Tamil only. In some other temples coming under HR and CE, boards display that there is an option of performing archana in Tamil. It is not even imposed.
Anyway as N'kiniyan says the people would scarcely understand what the pujari is uttering and in most case he does away with a max. of 15 namavalis (instead of 108.). Hence this is just a political statement.

But the nub is what locus standi does the nastika group has go to do with all this. If there is a quarrel at your home you would not like an outsider to intervene, much less adjudicate, do you?

Rgds.,

 

[SwamiTaBra]

namaste shrI Sangom.



To me, this sounds like a typical DK/DMK rhetoric. Although I am not much capable due to my limited knowledge of Tamizh sangham literature, I am sure that most of the perceptions in your above rhetoric can be disproved from the Tamizh texts themselves. So, I would request you to justify the perceptions in your above statement with example verses from the Tamizh texts of the period you are talking about.



• Even before the Tamil brahmin starts his sandhyA vandanam, he recites a mantra during his snAnam--bath:

gange cha yamune chaiva godAvarI sarasvatI
narmade sindhu kAveri jalesmin sannidhim kuru.

This mantra is also chanted while doing kalasha pUjA. I wonder how you could ignore it.

As to the sacredness and power of the rivers of South India, one can easily find out references in the PurANAs. Some samples:

• The legend of the sacred river KAvErI is found in the chapters 11-14 of the Skanda PurANam, and this portion is known as 'kAverI purANam'. The river KAverI is also known as the dakShiNa gangA (*1).

• The river GodAvarI flowing from the mountain Brahmagiri, was due to the penance of Gautama RShi, so just like GangA is known as BhAgIratI, GodAvarI is known as Gautama GangA. (*2)

• ganga godavari reva nadyo mukti pradas tu yah
nivasanti sa tirthas tah salagrama sila jale
koti tirtha sahasrais tu sevitaih kim prayojanam
tirtham yadi bhavet punyam salagrama silodbhavam

(HARI BHAKTI VILASA 3/293,294 from PADMA PURANA)

The water which washed Shalagram Shila includes the water from the Ganga, Godavari, Reva and other liberating rivers. If this bath water from the Shalagram Shila is available, then there is no need for thousands of other places of pilgrimage. (*3)

Notes:
01. Kaveri River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Origin of Kaveri River, Indian River

02. Shri Badrinath - Shri Kedarnath Temple Committee
03. shaligramHBV



This again seems to me a sweepting statement with more prejudice than substance. The very first example for their loyalty to Tamizh that comes to my mind are the Tamizh vaiShNavas of shrI RAmAnuja sampradAya. Another is the example of Chidambaram DIkShitars, which is already discussed here:

Dear Sri Saidevo,

Let me add what many others know:

Sage Agastya is held as the progenitor of Tamil language by many here. This lemuria tales hold us in thrall.

Thiru,. Nanan, a scholar, an athiest with DK leanings could not avoid using words like "mukham" and "sakthi", though he goes ballistic on the use of english and "vada mozhi sorkal" in daily use.
The late Valampuri John was to once tell me that there is was a healthy interflow (loan words) from Sanskrit to Tamil and also other way around.

Confining languages in silos is laughable.

Rgds.,

Rgds.

 

[sangom]

Sir,

I don't have any problem with Tamil archana. There is a Murugan temple near Vellore (N.A. Dt.) Ratnagiri which came up in early 1970s in which the kurukkals perform archana in Tamil only. In some other temples coming under HR and CE, boards display that there is an option of performing archana in Tamil. It is not even imposed.
Anyway as N'kiniyan says the people would scarcely understand what the pujari is uttering and in most case he does away with a max. of 15 namavalis (instead of 108.). Hence this is just a political statement.

But the nub is what locus standi does the nastika group has go to do with all this. If there is a quarrel at your home you would not like an outsider to intervene, much less adjudicate, do you?

Rgds.,

Dear Shri Swami,

The HR&CE is a govt. department. Though it concerns with hindus, as government it has the legal right to intervene and rule. Whether the govt., is of nastikas or astikas is overruled. If hindu people wanted their religious freedom to remain intact, they should have been ready to wage a struggle - even at the cost of lives - against the Hindu Code Bill. The very fact that such a thing did not happen, has robbed all rights from hindus for criticising govt. interference in the affairs of temples. We should be grateful that govt. does not interfere in a quarrel at home (sanskrit arcanai at home) but only when there is a quarrel in an assembly in a town hall!!

 

[SwamiTaBra]

I read this in dinamalar. Please go thro it if you know Tamizh or get read by who knows.....
ஒரு தியாகி இனி உருவாக மாட்டான்!
1921-ல் மகாகவி பாரதி மறைந்தபோது மிகக் குறைவானவர்களே வந்திருந்தனர் என்பது வருத்தத்துடன் அடிக்கடி நினைவுகூரப்படும் செய்தி. ஆனால், 90 ஆண்டுகளுக்குப் பிறகு, இப்போதும்கூட நிலைமையில் பெரிய மாற்றம் எதுவுமில்லை.
2011, ஜனவரி 2 ஆம் தேதி ஈரோடு மாவட்டம் கோபிசெட்டிபாளையத்தில் மிகப் பெரிய தியாகியொருவர் மறைந்தார், தனது 94-வது வயதில். மறைவு கேட்டு இல்லத்துக்கு வந்து இருந்தது சுமார் 25 பேர். நூறு பேர் வந்து சென்றவர்கள். மயானத்தில் நூற்றிச் சொச்சம்.
வரலாறும் இந்த சமுதாயமும் மறக்கக்கூடாத, ஆனால் மறந்துவிட்ட எத்தனையோ விடுதலைப் போராட்ட தியாகிகளில் ஜி.எஸ். லட்சுமண அய்யரும் ஒருவர்.

Sir,

Thanks.

I am reminded of Sri. Subramania Siva, who was born in V(B)atlagundu and had to suffer hardship at the hand of British. His memorial is at Papparapatti, near Dharmapuri where he breathed his last.

Of course it is just not brahmins who suffered hardships during freedom struggle. But as my friend (a NB) says that political parties would seldom remember those silent heroes.

Some of those who would not have endured (that too questionable) a fraction of hardship that many unsung men suffered, were smart enough to get "Tamara patras" which enabled them to avail some pension and some other concessions as allotment of lands, free travel with companion in State run public transport buses.

Rgds.,

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Shri Swami,

The HR&CE is a govt. department. Though it concerns with hindus, as government it has the legal right to intervene and rule. Whether the govt., is of nastikas or astikas is overruled. If hindu people wanted their religious freedom to remain intact, they should have been ready to wage a struggle - even at the cost of lives - against the Hindu Code Bill. The very fact that such a thing did not happen, has robbed all rights from hindus for criticising govt. interference in the affairs of temples. We should be grateful that govt. does not interfere in a quarrel at home (sanskrit arcanai at home) but only when there is a quarrel in an assembly in a town hall!!

You have misunderstood me. In the fallout of oduvar issue*, the government's right to manage the affairs of Chidambaram temple is upheld by the court, but what has other nastikas got to do with that. It is clearly an internal matter between the astikas. So if an astika has an dispute with another astika, he should scrupulously keep such elements at bay. That will turn out to be a Faustian bargain.

What happened at Guruvayur on the Mary Ravi (deceased wife of Union minister Vayalar Ravi) case? (though it pertains of her religion of birth).

You seem to be extremely comfortable with Kerala, but is so perturbed with these issues at Tamil Nadu.

With rgds.,

* I personally feel that the Dikshitars by their obstinacy on the oduvar issue invited greater damage to themselves. The problem with Dikshitars, I suppose is that they do not even listen to wise counsels from their well-wishers.

 

[sangom]

You have misunderstood me. In the fallout of oduvar issue*, the government's right to manage the affairs of Chidambaram temple is upheld by the court, but what has other nastikas got to do with that. It is clearly an internal matter between the astikas. So if an astika has an dispute with another astika, he should scrupulously keep such elements at bay. That will turn out to be a Faustian bargain.

What happened at Guruvayur on the Mary Ravi (deceased wife of Union minister Vayalar Ravi) case? (though it pertains of her religion of birth).

You seem to be extremely comfortable with Kerala, but is so perturbed with these issues at Tamil Nadu.

With rgds.,

* I personally feel that the Dikshitars by their obstinacy on the oduvar issue invited greater damage to themselves. The problem with Dikshitars, I suppose is that they do not even listen to wise counsels from their well-wishers.

Dear Shri Swami,

May be I am not clear about whom you are referring to as 'naastikas'. Will you kindly make it clearer?

As for GVR and Mercy Ravi episode, I hold the view that Shri Ravi could have averted it had he been more diplomatic and held some preparatory talks with the temple management which is most pliable to governmental pressure. Instead he seems to have tried to do it in a headstrong fashion. Naturally, it affected egos and then it was the prerogative of the Tantri to take whatever stand he took then. I for one, am not particularly for excluding from or including in, anyone in the eligible list of temple entry, as long as they will obey the common disciplines to be obeyed within the precincts, and there is no terrorist threat looming. I don't know what makes you say "You seem to be extremely comfortable with Kerala, but is so perturbed with these issues at Tamil Nadu." You may like to clarify.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Dear Shri Swami,

May be I am not clear about whom you are referring to as 'naastikas'. Will you kindly make it clearer?

As for GVR and Mercy Ravi episode, I hold the view that Shri Ravi could have averted it had he been more diplomatic and held some preparatory talks with the temple management which is most pliable to governmental pressure. Instead he seems to have tried to do it in a headstrong fashion. Naturally, it affected egos and then it was the prerogative of the Tantri to take whatever stand he took then. I for one, am not particularly for excluding from or including in, anyone in the eligible list of temple entry, as long as they will obey the common disciplines to be obeyed within the precincts, and there is no terrorist threat looming. I don't know what makes you say "You seem to be extremely comfortable with Kerala, but is so perturbed with these issues at Tamil Nadu." You may like to clarify.

Sir,

May be you were not posted on the "oduvar" matter, I'm not blaming you for that. A old oduvar was determined to sing the panns of thevaram from one of the spots in front of the santum sanctorum of Nataraja. The Dikshitar's objected to his singing from that particular spot, but the oduvar was obstinate. Hence the furore.

Naturally it invited the attention of many including the athiestic groups of DK shade. It is justifiable for the theists to take up the cause of oduvar and protest. My point is that the old oduvar should have declined the solidarity atheists extended, which they did in the name of upholding 'self-respect'.

On the Guruvayur case, the Tantri was the final authority and it stood, here the Dikshitars lost. I hope you appreciate the comparison I make.

Also you are well aware that Communists are the early atheists and should be knowing the fate of a muslim MP belonging to CPM from Kerala(I forgot his name) who proclaimed his belief in god.

N'kininiyan is spot on when he said that Goebbels was a kindergartener when compared to TN politicians.

Rgds.,

 

[sangom]

Sir,

May be you were not posted on the "oduvar" matter, I'm not blaming you for that. A old oduvar was determined to sing the panns of thevaram from one of the spots in front of the santum sanctorum of Nataraja. The Dikshitar's objected to his singing from that particular spot, but the oduvar was obstinate. Hence the furore.

Naturally it invited the attention of many including the athiestic groups of DK shade. It is justifiable for the theists to take up the cause of oduvar and protest. My objection is that the old oduvar should have declined the solidarity atheists extended, which they did in the name of upholding 'self-respect'.

On the Guruvayur case, the Tantri was the final authority and it stood, here the Dikshitars lost. I hope you appreciate the comparison I make.

Also you are well aware that Communists are the early atheists and should be knowing the fate of a muslim MP belonging to CPM from Kerala(I forgot his name) who proclaimed his belief in god.

N'kininiyan is spot on when he said that Goebbels was a kindergardener when compared to TN politicians.

Rgds.,

Dear Shri Swami,

May be due to my age I am either not keeping up to date with even Kerala developments, or, am forgetting because the politics here (as elsewhere) is so disgusting. Anyway, I don't remember any Muslim MP getting out of CPM because of his belief in religion; I think the start was his praising the "Gujarat model" and Modi. Whether the point re. being religious was raised by any side is not known to me. Anyway, if this is a different case, I am not aware of the one you refer to.

I agree that the "Othuvaar" at Chidambaram should not have gone to the atheists' help. Now I get the point you made. Thanks. Atheists had no business in it; they ought to object to Othuvaaar's singing also.

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri Kunjuppu

"have the tambrams done anything wrong at all? or just only wronged against? "

As a community we do have many negative aspects of our culture. But to speak of progressive policies and support for DK is contradictory.

Any upper caste, upper class community has its negative. But it doesn't shadow as their entire legacy. Lastly, it doesn't do right to play divisive and claim that to be a progressive idea IMO.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[suraju06]

Why should not Gujjars deserve reservations? What atrocities did they involve in? Who are the ineligible dalits?

H.H.,
Did I say Gujjars do not deserve reservation? Please read my post carefully. I have said just that they want a separate nomenclature to be allotted to them within the eligible group of communities because they feel crowded out by other eligible communities in the group. Please do not jump to conclusions after just one reading in a hurry. Read again to understand the context in which sentences are given and then argue. Cheers.

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri KRS

"You are entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitiled to be offensive against other members in this Forum."

Yes, and it is my opinion that a support for DK, or tacitly giving excuses for justifying anti-brahmin sentiment by pointing to Manu Smriti is being morally bankrupt. Giving a wrapped up idea of what brahmins represent in order to justify hatred to them is also being morally bankrupt IMO.

Anyway, the term seems have got people's bloods boiling. I will tone it down and make my point clear. I appreciate (and respect) your's as well as others' (like Praveen's) role a moderators. I look forward to putting my point. I don't look forward to trolling or hijacking this forum.

Warm regards,
Vivek.

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri Saidevo

I have tried and mellowed my post. Thank you for your support in your posts.

Regards,
Vivek.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Vivek,

Please see this post of mine.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...impses-south-indian-history-25.html#post72065

Please read all these older posts before coming to any conclusion about the forum or its members.

I have said once. I will say again.

The older members are sick of having to post again and again on the same subject. That too on subjects which affects the entire community.

 

[SwamiTaBra]

H.H.,
Did I say Gujjars do not deserve reservation? Please read my post carefully. I have said just that they want a separate nomenclature to be allotted to them within the eligible group of communities because they feel crowded out by other eligible communities in the group. Please do not jump to conclusions after just one reading in a hurry. Read again to understand the context in which sentences are given and then argue. Cheers.

Gujjars, if I am right, want in the ST category. They feel that Meenas take the cake.

Late Rajesh Pilot was a Gujjar.

Rgds.,

 

[Vivek_V]

Sri Nara - Issue of Language. TBs liked/like Tamil and hold it proudly. They never held Tamil in 'contempt'.

"After EVR joined the party there were two wings, one a rationalist wing headed by EVR and the other a Saiva one that was pro-Tamil/anti-Brahmin. "

What was EVR's "rationalism"? Its rational to think that the future of a community is education. Maybe EVR should have then taken time to spread a
message of education. He did not.

Instead, he enforced hatered to another community because of the position they came to by education.

"The Brahmins made this choice voluntarily, and they chose to be Brahmins with Sanskrit as deva bhasha, superior to Tamil. It is true that many notable contributions to Tamil were made by Brahmins, but, they always held Sanskrit superior. This can be established by a simple test, how many Brahmins gladly accept the notion that Archanai in temples can be done in Tamil?"

And you correctly accept that brahmins did contribute to Tamil. I don't understand superiority or inferiority of languages. Is there anything truely offensive in archanais being done in Sanskrit? I feel tamil society is sort of xenophobic where any apparent outside influence is seen as hating the native.

Tamil brahmins had that tradition in Sanskrit which is why they follow it in Sanskrit. When it comes to tamil literature - Thirupuggal or Thirukural etc, TBs would ONLY read it or say it in Tamil merely because that is how it was created. They are proud to read Tamil literature in Tamil, and proud to read what was done in Sanskrit, in Sanskrit.

For that matter, Muslims read the Quran in Arabic and write it in that script too - both language and script are foreign to India. Is that offensive? Not the least to me.

I would only read Sheakspear in English, not in Tamil or Marathi. Why should that be offensive? Your reply Nara is another classical example of you asking brahmins to choose between the brahmin and tamil identity.

"What DK does is their business...IMO, the social evil that is caste system is a product of Brahminism. Any practitioner of Brahminism will have to answer for it, whether TB or TNB, or plain B and NB."

True, but once anyone supports them it becomes their bussiness too.

And again you go to call casteism "brahminism". Brahmins emphasized on education, on non-drinking how come all of these positive things aren't uttered by your mind as "brahminism"? Likewise my question for the DK and its supporters.

They are quick as lightening in calling an evil of social discrimination "brahmin-ism", you place them as primary responsible by the name itself, even though you go on to say others also have to answer for it. Your naming itself spells your bias.

"I don't have any issue with this, except, the way to deal with this is not to go after DK, but to look inward and change for the better. Get rid of the
concept of Varna altogether, make a clean break. "

Sure, get rid of the concept of gender to fight gender inequality. What you are not understanding is that definite cultural boundaries do exist in our society.

What you are incapable of doing is to condemn DK for its attack on brahmins. Our past generations should have seen this venemous trend for what it is and worked to attack the negative, criminal image tamil polity spreads of TBs. It would have helped if they worked to remove negative aspects of their culture too. DK itself played the caste card, do you even realize that? Now you want to get rid of varna.

The best way would have been (as I said earlier) to spread a message for people of the new India to regard education, to not make
reservations based on so and so caste.

"This is simply not true. Both sides of the argument get to present their case. There are enough posts in this forum that highlight all the misery TBs have been suffering at the hands of Dravidian parties."

And yet there is continued to support for DK's divisive policies here. You yourself look at brahmins as outsiders, when you spoke of "Dravidian" parties.

Such a concept, as "dravidians against aryan TBs" is new to politics didn't exist anytime before. The "original tamil" aspects of tamil culture could have very well be influenced by brahmins, as were brahmins influenced by the others. TBs were considered part of tamil society as other upper NB classes, in entireity.

Regarding this:

"This bilinguality was unique and was distinguished by its contempt for Tamil,"

Nobody is going to believe TBs had contempt for Tamil. I know the linguistic pride tamils have, including TBs for the greatness of tamil. Nacchi's own post on countering Anti-brahminism says Tamil is older than Sanskrit (which I even doubt, not being sure how he comes to that conclusion).

As for my opinion, I don't know which is older and its frankly not that important. In short: TBs never hated Tamil. What they did do, was also like another language, which DK found offensive in its xenophobia.

Brahmins were in their legacy, enrichers of languages and learnt and respected many languages.

Regards,
Vivek.