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A Few Glimpses from South Indian History

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namaste Praveen.

I am aware of the Moderator's rights and privileges. Questioning his authority would arise when a member questions him about removing or editing a post or even banning him/her, or another member.

Please clarify if a Moderator can summarily ban even mentioning the name of a banned member or talking about him, an authority which shrI KRS has assumed himself in these words while commenting on my observation in post no.339.

"If any of you again talk about Sri Vivek-V Ji, your post will be unceremoniously deleted and infractions issued. - KRS"

I am asking you this in public as you have indicated the rules in public, which prima facie do not seem to imply this privilege.

This is what asked in reply to his comment above in my post: "I don't know Vivek personally, but why should there be a ban even to talk about him or his posts?" He deleted this post of mine.

When I tried to post him the reason for my quitting the forum--the reason I have PMed to you as the contents of my post no.340--he struck it down too and has now insulted me in his post no.342: "If you want to quit, please go away in silence. No need to announce it as though it merits any announcement." He has also accused me of violating his instructions in posts 340 and 344.

When Kunjuppu, Sangom, and Nara were allowed to announce their quitting the forum, I wonder why I could not do so. I am constrained to write this post to indicate to the members why I have quit the forum.
 
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Please clarify if a Moderator can summarily ban even mentioning the name of a banned member or talking about him, an authority which shrI KRS has assumed himself in these words while commenting on my observation in post no.339.

I am asking you this in public as you have indicated the rules in public, which prima facie do not seem to imply this privilege.

I(we) do not have to explain each and every action of the admins or the moderators. This is going back to the same old thing again and again and again and again.

If you want to quit, please go away in silence. No need to announce it as though it merits any announcement.
I do not see what is insulting in this.

Again, I(We) do not have to explain each and every action and each and every word of what i say or KRSji says.

I now feel i just spent a good portion of my time posting that open letter. Maybe i should have not bothered abt it at all in the first place.

Thank you all. This is now being closed.
 
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Folks,
Sri sangom Ji, who opened this thread has requested that this thread be opened for further postings by him, based on the original topic.

Now that things seem to be settling down, I am reopening the thread. Let us get back to discussing the original topic. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS
 
Folks,
Sri sangom Ji, who opened this thread has requested that this thread be opened for further postings by him, based on the original topic.

Now that things seem to be settling down, I am reopening the thread. Let us get back to discussing the original topic. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS


Dear Shri KRS,

Thank you very much.
 
Mr. Nara said:
Dear Saidevo,
Let me start with the quote of what Shri Sangom said originally.
But otherwise, (a) here is a southern corner of the peninsula which has had a distinct language, which, as spoken by the non-erudite masses, is mostly free from the sanskrit language influence. (b) It also became evident that this Tamizh language had a great literary history and its development was free from the vedic or sanskritic influences and presented a society with a sufficiently developed social structure. (c)Amidst this sea of ordinary masses was a small group, holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion, scriptures in an alien language and which, at every other step, would convince an impartial student that this small group was living at best as ambassadors of an entirely different era, people, culture, religion and belief system.
Note: The inserted (a), (b), and (c) are mine.
After this Mr. Nara moves on and gives his comments as given below (my comments are given below each quote):
(a) Are you saying at no point in time in the distant past, in the southern most corner of the peninsula, there was a distinct language, mostly free of Sanskrit? In as much as the origin of Tamil and Sanskrit have different origins, there must have existed a time when Tamil was free of Sanskrit influence, no?
The questions are: (i) How do we come to the conclusion that Tamil was spoken only by the “non-erudite masses” and who were these non-erudite masses? Erudite means ‘learned’. Is it contended that the Tamil Society as distinct from the “small group of erudite Brahmins” were not learned? (ii) how do we assert that there was no influence of Sanskrit on this language and that there was no influence of this language on Sanskrit? So the assertive statement in (a) above automatically begs these two questions which needs an answer. This is the objection which has not been answered satisfactorily yet.
(b) It is claimed that Agastya was the first Aryan to cross the Vindhyas. Surely, the Tamils were not completely uncivilized before that. In as much as ilakkanam follows ilakkiyam, there must have been well developed literary tradition by the time of Tolkapiyar, who is claimed to be a pupil of Agastya, the earliest known work on Tamil grammar. So, I am unable to understand why it is unreasonable to think the Tamils had a well developed literary tradition and social structure before Agastya brought Sanskrit and Brahminical Vedas to the Tamil country.
All these being claims without any evidence we can move to the next point. Moreover Mr. Nara has not raised any questions on these to Mr. Saideo. Saideo has also not said anywhere that Tamils did not have a well developed literary tradition before the two languages benefited by interacting.
(c) Given what we see even today, I am unable to see what the problem is with the statement about Brahmins that, "Amidst this sea of ordinary masses was a small group, holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion, scriptures in an alien language,...". Brahmins even today try to live in small groups, holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religious practices, scriptures in an alien language. You have yourself conceded this as such, perhaps not about religion, but about culture and language.
Here lies the real problem. The Brahmins are said to be a small group holding allegiance to an entirely different culture, religion, scriptures in an alien language. This requires a critical look. The point put forward is that the small group of Brahmins had a culture, scriptures in alien language,had religious practices and system of belief which was alien to the Tamils. This is a far reaching conclusion which needs evidence. In accepted methodology there are two types of evidences which are admissible: the internal evidences-அகச்சான்று and external evidences -புறச்சான்று, the former being more reliable than the later . To disprove the contention I am giving here the internal evidences-அகச்சான்றுகள் first:
The earliest available reliable internal evidences are from the Tamil Literature. Tamil Literature of the Sangam Period are the earliest available literature that throws some light on the society at that time.Keeping this inview I have tried to look into the works of Sangam period. I give below my points:

(1) Please see ஐங்குறுநூறு -ஓரம்போகியாரின் கவிதை:
வாழி ஆதன்! வாழி அவினி!
பகைவர் புள் ஆர்க! பார்ப்பார் ஓதுக!
என வேட்டோளே, யாயே: யாமே,
'பூத்த கரும்பின் காய்த்த நெல்லின்,
கழனி ஊரன் மார்பு
பழனம் ஆகற்க !' என வேட்டோமே .

(2 ) நல்லந்துவனார் in கலித்தொகை
'எறித்தரு கதிர்தாங்கி ஏந்திய குடைநிழல்,
உறித்தாழ்ந்த கரகமும், உரைசான்ற முக்கோலும்,
நெறிப்படச்சுவல் அசைஇ, வேறு ஓரா நெஞ்சத்துக்
குறிப்பு இவள செயல் மாலைக் கொளை நடை அந்தணீர் !
வேவ் இடைச் செலன் மாலை ஒழுக்கத்தீர் : இவ் இடை
என் மகள் ஒருத்தியும் பிறள் மகன் ஒருவனும்,
தம்முளே புணர்ந்த தாம் அறி புணர்ச்சியர் :
அன்னார் இருவரைக் காணீரோ ? பெரும!.....
.................................................................................
பல உறு நறுஞ்சாந்தம் படுப்பவர்க்கு அல்லதை,
மலையுளே பிறப்பினும் , நீர்க்கு அவை தான் என் செயும்?
நினையுங்கால் நும் மகள் நுமக்கும் ஆங்கு அனையளே .

(3 ) நல்லந்துவனார் in கலித்தொகை
அகன் ஞாலம் விளக்கும் தன பல் கதிர் வாயாகப்
பகல் நுங்கியது போலப்படு சுடர் கல் சேர
...................................................................................................
அந்தி அந்தணர் எதிர்கொள்ள அயர்ந்து செந்தீ செவ்வழல் தொடங்க ...
.......................................................................................................
மாலை என்மனார் மயங்கியோரே.

(4 ) பாரதம் பாடிய பெருந்தேவனார் in நற்றிணை.

மா நிலம் சேவடி ஆக , தூ நீர்
வளை நரல் பௌவம் உடுக்கை ஆக
விசும்பு மெய் ஆக, திசை கை ஆக,
பசுங் கதிர் மதியமொடு சுடர் கண் ஆக,
இயன்ற எல்லாம் பயின்று அகத்து அடக்கிய
வேத முதல்வன் என்ப
தீது அற விளங்கிய திகிரியோனே.

(5 ) ஆசிரியன் நல்லந்துவனார் in பரிபாடல்
கனைக்கும் அதிர்குரல் கார் வானம் நீங்க
பணிப்படு பைதல் .....................................
.......................................................................
விரிநூல் அந்தணர் விழவு தொடங்க
புரிநூல் அந்தணர் பொலம் கலம் ஏற்ப
....................................................................
உறை சிறை வேதியர்
நெறி நிமிர் நுடங்கு அழல் பேணிய சிறப்பின்
...............நீ உரைத்தி வையை நதி

(6) முரஞ்சியூர் முடிநாகராயர் in புறநானுறு

...............................................................................
அந்தி அந்தணர் அருங்கடன் இறுக்கும்
முத்தீ விளக்கின் துஞ்சும் ...................... .

So, what is it that you are objecting to, if I may ask?
I think now it is clear.
Saideo said:
• Since we Hindus in the past had never been in the habit of documenting our history, all that we know of our history, culture, religion and civilization is only from the religious and literary texts, right? In that case, is there not every possibility that our ancient Tamizhs would certainly have recorded it in their texts if they considered their religion, culture and social structure to be different from that of the Vedic religion? Then what is the problem for you to search for such examples and highlight them, just as you are doing in the case of Sanskrit texts, instead of just voicing your own and current academic opinions
Mr. Nara commented:
Yes, the ancients of India were not meticulous about documenting history. We can only make educated guess of what life would have been like based on the literary works that have survived the ravages of time and whims of the ruling class at various times. I feel, as Hart observes, Sanskrit and Tamil influenced each other quite a bit. But we also must note that (i) Sanskrit and Vedas (at least the first 3) are not indigenous to the Tamil people,

We need not spend time arguing about this as we are, as admitted, not discussing about documented history but impressions of various people only. So let us move on.


(ii) the assimilation of Vedic culture was not free of tension. You may not agree with me, which is alright, but to me, this tension is visible going all the way back to Thirukkural. It is openly visible in Manimekalai in which Aputthiran contemptuously points out the hypocrisy of the Brahmins who were deriding him of his low birth.

Here again there is an attempt to obfuscate history.(I am not using the term ‘mischief’ because people are all extra sensitive to criticism here). If there had been any resistance or tension it would have certainly reflected in the evidences available. While Thirukkural belongs to the Sangam time (it comes under the collection called பதினெண் கீழ்க்கணக்கு Manimekalai is a work that belonged to a much later period. In Thirukkural if there is such a tension visible it should have been quoted. I find this is not done. So it need not be considered. To the opposite view that there was no tension I have given above the evidence from the sangam literature .
(1)I also feel Khalabharas were quite anti-Brahmin. You said so yourself, that they took away land grants made to Brahmins. After they lost power I feel the Brahmins launched a systematic and successful effort to eradicate all textual evidence of that period, not much survived.

(2)The bhakti movement and the literature it produced is a repudiation of Brahminism. I am familiar only with SV, and in it, varna system is criticized in the most stark terms.

(3)Moving further along in time, there is a poem called Kapilar Agaval, in which the author derides the Brahminical practices.

(1)What is the evidence which suggests that Brahmins did this? Is it just an impression or is there any internal or external evidence?

(2)There are two views about this.This is a subject which has been discussed thread bare already. Each one has his own POV in interpreting bhakti literature.

(3)There are umpteen number of works which deride Brahmins and their way of life. All these need not be brought in here because their motive force is suspect.

it is the system and the mindset it engenders, that is the problem.

Yes. That is precisely the problem.

Cheers!
I do not expect a reply to this from Mr. Nara as his position is to assiduously avoid me. I expect that Sangom Sir will reply.
 
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Hi Folks,
As I have quoted from the sangam literature, I give below the meaning of difficult words so that the readers can understand what is said:
(1) ஐங்குறுநூறு - ஓரம்போகியார்.

புல் ஆர்க- புல்லரிசிச் சோற்றை உண்க:ஆதன் - ஒரு குறு நில மன்னன்:அவினி-ஆதனுடைய குடியில் பிறந்தோன் :

இந்தக் கவிதையில் பார்ப்பார் ஒதுக் என்ற வரிகள் அன்றைய சமூகத்தில் பார்ப்பனர்கள் இருந்ததையும் வேதம் முதலானவை ஓதுதல் அவர்தம் தொழில் என்பதும் தெளிவாகிறது. சமூகத்தில் வாழ்ந்த தோழி பாடுவதாக வரும் இப்பாடலில் பார்ப்பனர்களுக்கு எதிரான கருத்து எதுவும் வெளிப்படவில்லை. மாறாக அவர்களை வாழ்த்துவதாகவே வந்துள்ளன என்ற உண்மையை மனதில் கொள்ள வேண்டும்.

(2 ) இது காதலனுடன் ஓடிப்போன தன மகளை குறித்து அந்தணர்களிடம் கேட்கும் தாயின் கூற்றாக அமைந்துள்ளது.
Meaninng :Oh Brahmins! You who walk beneath the raised umbrella's protecting shade, sheltered from the hurtling rays of the Sun, With pitchers slung from chords, And holy trident staffs(திரிதண்டி அந்தணர்கள்) duly resting on your shoulders, And with undistracted minds controlling the senses, O Brahmins who tread the path of virtueAnd whose ordained duty bids you to go across this torrid desert!
Did you not O Brahmins see them here!
And did you not too O venerable Sir!
Did you not see those two,
My own daughter and another woman's son,
Who had met each other in secret,
But are declared lovers now?

The sage replies typically as follows:

How could we say we did not see them?
We met them both on the desert path:
A youth of noble bearing we saw,
And with him was an artless maiden,
richly jewelled, bravely treading the difficult desert
Her mother you seem to be.
The fragrant sandal, sylvan-born,
serves only those who rub it on
No good is it to its mountain mother,
If you reflect Even such is your daughter unto you.

In this piece of literature also we find brahmins being addressed in glorious terms. They are called venerable. These are certainly no indications of any tension. Now is there any indication that it was a small group which was alien to the common people in the society.

(3)அந்தி அந்தணர்.....--brahmins engage themselves in their ordained rites in the evening.

This reference is also secular. It just says brahmins engaging in their normal activities. Where is the indication of tension in this?

(4)மாநிலம் சேவடி ஆக ..............The meaning of this piece is not difficult to understand. It is an out and out hymn sung praising the God திருமால் .In this piece திகிரி means சக்ராயுதம் and திகிரியோன் means திருமால்.

(5) விரிநூல் - ஆகமங்களை உணர்ந்த : பொலங்கலம்-பொன்னால் ஆனா கலன்:உறை சிறை - கரையில் வாழும் , நெறி-வேத நெறி ,நுடங்கு அழல்-அசையும் நெருப்பு சுவாலை
Meaning: And gentle brahmins who wear the sacred thread of triple twist..............tremulous flame rising up from the sacred fire kindled and fed with devout rites by brahmins proficient in vedas...........

In this piece also brahmins are spoken of with respect. No trace of malice towards them.
Conclusion: Brahmins were as much part of the society as the other members. They were known for seeking knowledge, speaking truth, conducting religious rites,moving across the country from place to place in search of knowledge. It is only the later day politicians who have cast them in the role of a villain. Sangam times are ancient and Tamils lived a life free of ennui, malice, hatred etc., Brahmins were held in great esteem in this society. Vedic lore was well known in those times. The God Vishnu is a vedic God. He is spoken of in these sangam literatures. Paripaadal, which I have not quoted and Thirumurukaatruppadai are full of hymns in praise of thirumaal and murugan. Those who say that brahmins were not part of the society at that time or that there was tension between the society and them are only unaware of the facts or are not willing to see the facts. They are prejudiced.
 
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suraju,

i have no problem with brahmins bing treated respectfully in the sangam age. how many milleniums ago was that? it has no impact on my day to day living.

i have problems with the way we are being perceived in today's tamil nadu. this is a cnosequence of the interrelationships that we have had with the rest of tamil tribes in the past century. what bothers me, is that while there are no permanent friends or enemies, in our case, we do not have a strategy for improving our relationship and getting some government help for our disadvantaged.

it is a result of utter poverty in our thinking. i believe so. what can you do to improve the realtionship and image? that is my problem. not what the tamil society thought of brahmins 2000 years or so ago.

all answers of people who have ideas similar to yours is (1) brahmins were respected all through the years (2) periyar poisoned the minds of the tamils against the tambrams. so what? periyar had solid arguements. what arguements do you have to counter periyar's revolution. periyar won. now we have to roll back. what is your strategy for rollback.

let us not keep on looking back and getting upset over what we lost. how can we regain our respect? tel me agian, HOW CAN WE REGAIN OUR RESEPCT? everything you write is inconsequential.

suraju, i do beg your pardon, if you feel my post is rather strong. no way, i intend to belittle or mock you for your quotes. far from it. it is an erudition, that i admire. but to me it is all ஏட்டு சுரைக்காய் that is of no practical use. we need some political acumen, some sharp think, good PR and above all a heart - to introspect, and understand what went wrong.

if we could all agree on the cause and effect, then we can do something. harping on sangam age and damage done by periyar is of no use. you need to come up with ideas to improve our lot and reagain that respect. negative thinking simply won't do any more. hot air just raises the temperature of an already sweltering atmosphere here.

thank you.
 
. . . Continuation from this post here.

[I give extracts from the book. “Politics and Social Conflict in South India (The Non-Brahman Movement and Tamil Separatism, 1916-1929)”: Sponsored by the Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies, University of California, Berkeley. Page numbers furnished refer to this publication.In order to shorten the posts, I am condensing some portions; these condensed portions are in italics. My own comments are given in blue.]


An unwillingness to face the realities of the situation and a desire to put off the evil day when non-Brahmans in Congress politics would demand an equal if not a disproportionately large share of power was a characteristic of proceedings within the Tamil Congress organization for the next five years. On a number of occasions, resolutions dealing with the social policy, particularly proportional representation, were brought before provisional and district Congress conferences in the Tamil area, and on each occasion the rebuff which the non-Brahmans felt they had received provoked them to deeper hostility.113

. . .

Still another affair in which Ramaswami Naicker became involved was the issue of separate dining which was enforced for Brahman and non-Brahman students at a traditional school or Gurukulam in the famous Brahman village of Kallidaikurchi in Tinnevelly district. As a center of Brahman culture and learning Kallidaikurchi had a tradition of conflict with non-Brahmas of the area dating back at least to 1917, when the Justice Party took exception to Taluq Board funds being spent on the Sanskrit College at Kallidaikurchi. Only a few non-Brahmans were permitted to enter the school, and they were not allowed to study the Vedas.116 The Gurukulam, which was actually at Shermadevi, a little to the south of Kallidaikurchi, was established in December, 1922, by V.V.S. Aiyer, [more popularly known as va. ve. cu. aiyar] a former terrorist and editor (1920-1922) of the Tamil newspaper Desabhaktan. Most of its financial support came from private individuals as the Nattukottai Chettis in India and Burma, and from a number of organizations. The Tamil Nad Congress Committee gave Rs.5,000 to the Gurukulam at the time of its establishment.

In January, 1925, reports that non-Brahmans at the Gurukulam were forced to eat apart from the Brahmans came to the attention of Ramaswami Naicker and P. Varadarajulu Naidu (both Balija Naidus). A committee from the T.N.C.C. was thereupon appointed to look into the matter,117 and in April Varadarajulu Naidu began an all-out campaign not only against the Gurukulam but also against what he considered to be Brahman domination within the Congress.118 He told a public audience at Salem that before the Tamils sought equality with foreigners they should “establish complete equality with the Brahmins in the matter of inter-dining and save the Non-Brahmins from the age-long social injustice that had been meted out to them by the Brahmins . . . V.V.S. Aiyer’s action in not allowing Non-Brahmin boys to eat with the Brahmins [was] a direct challenge to the Non-Brahmins, and
. . . this was the time for the Tamilians to vindicate their honour.”119 @
Two weeks later Varadarajulu Naidu indirectly caused a minor riot when he spoke at a meeting in Mayavaram, in Tanjore district. While the meeting was in progress a rumor was circulated that a Brahman# who had been heckling Varadarajulu Naidu during his speech had been forcibly ejected by some non-Brahmans. The ensuing melee was so wild that the meeting broke up in confusion.120 When the T.N.C.C. met at Trichinopoly, Varadarajulu Naidu used his influence as president to limit the agenda almost exclusively to a discussion of the Brahman—non-Brahman question. In the event, a compromise resolution was agreed on by which the Committee recommended that all organizations partaking in the national movement should follow a principle shunning gradations of merit based on birth.121 Ramaswami Naicker agreed with the resolution, adding that if the country was not yet prepared to accept this state of things, it was the duty of the non-Brahmans to create public opinion which was receptive to their rights.

Almost simultaneously, as a direct result of non-Brahman pressure, V.V.S. Aiyer resigned as head of the Gurukulam.123 Even with this victory, Varadarajulu Naidu thought seriously of leaving Congress as a protest against Brahmans in the Tamil Nad organization.

. . .

Ramaswami Naicker’s attitudes were hardened by a number of public utterances made by Gandhi on his visit to Tamil Nad in late 1927, shortly after the Justice Party had granted its members permission to enter Congress. Much of what Gandhi said was a repetition of his remarks on previous visits — which at the time had provoked considerable resentment among Tamilians. In April, 1921, Gandhi told a meeting in Madras that “In Madras I have not a shadow of doubt that Hinduism owes its all to the great traditions that the Brahmans have left for Hinduism . . . The Brahmins have declared themselves and they ought to remain the custodians of the purity of our life.”60 Four years later, in March, 1925, Gandhi said in Madras, “If you but follow Varnashrama Dharma in its spirit, we shall cease to be puny individuals and we shall walk in the fear of God.”61 Gandhi’s enunciation of his belief in the sacred duty of varnashrama dharma alarmed Ramaswami Naicker and S. Ramanathan; they tried to persuade him to modify his position, but without success, and Ramaswami Naicker then broke with Gandhi. ON August 28, 1927, he published an editorial in Kudi Arasu in which he called for the destruction of Congress, Hinduism, and Brahmanism.62

After a number of representations from non-Brahmans, Gandhi realized that his commitment to varnashrama dharma had created difficulties in the Tamil districts, and he sought to amplify his position. He admitted to one audience in September, 1927, that “as you are aware, though a non-Brahmin myself, I have lived more of my life with them and in their midst, than amidst non-Brahmins and on that account pardonably some of my non-Brahmin friends suspect me of having taken all my colourings from Brahmin friends.”63 But at the end of October he reaffirmed his “belief that Varnashrama Dharma is not an unmitigated evil but it is one of the foundations on which Hinduism is built,” and that “Varnashrama Dharma defines man’s mission on earth.”64

The damage had been done. To many non-Brahmans in the Tamil country, varnashrama dharma could mean only one thing : the superiority of orthodox Brahmans over the rest of the population in the area. They refused to consider what Gandhi really meant when he spoke of varnashrama dharma.

to be continued . . .



60 Hindu, Apr. 11, 1921.
61Ibid., Mar. 23, 1925.
62 Sitamparaṉār, Tamiḷar talaivar, pp. 102-103.
63 Hindu (weekly ed.), Sept. 15, 1927.
64 Ibid., Oct. 27, 1927.
113 The Hindu (Nov.7, 1922) described, for example, the quarrel that developed at a Congress meeting in Tiruppur on November 5, 1922, over a resolution to allow Nadars entry into the temples. At a T.N.C.C. meeting in April of the same year it was proposed that a committee be appointd “to investigate and recommend ways
for the better understanding and relationship between Brahmins and non-Brahmins,” but owing to the controversial nature of the proposal it was thought “inexpedient” to pass it and it was duly withdrawn. (Hindu, Apr. 10, 1922). Another quarrel between non-Brahmans and Brahmans arose when a resolution was introduced by a Brahman at the T.N.C.C. meeting at Tenkasi in Tinnevelly district on July 6, 1922, recommending that the A.I.C.C. should help to found and support a Tamil university at Kallidaikurchi. Two Vellalas opposed this resolution as likely to exacerbate the “ill-feeling between Brahmin and non-Brahmins in this district.” At that point a delegate cried, “Mahatma Gandhiki jai.” A. Masilamani Pillai, a Vellala, replied, “Brahmana-kurumbu [Brahman mischief],” following which “there were many angry demonstrations.” Ibid., July 8, 1922.

116 See T. Varadarajulu Naidu, Justice Movement, 1917, pp. 114-115, and the Madras Mail, Mar. 30, 1918, which gives the full text of the resolution passed by the non-Brahmans. Specifically, the resolution protested the diversion by the Taluq Board of Shermadevi of the Tirucarankudi Chatram funds toward the maintenance of the Sanskrit College at Kallidaikurchi on the grounds that this introduced an invidious distinction of caste.

117Hindu (weekly ed.), Jan. 22, 1925.

118See Varadarajulu Naidu’s editorial in Tamil Nadu for Mar. 29, 1925, which attacks the Brahmans on the Gurukulam issue. Madras NNR, 1925.

119Hindu, Apr. 8, 1925.

@ I notice two aspects here. One is that even prior to EVR’s forming DK, the anti-Brahman sentiment had reached its crescendo but both the Tamil Brahman community and the T.N.C.C. with a predominantly Brahman orientation were intransigent and did not even countenance resolutions etc., which sought to pave the way for a level playing field for non-Brahmans and Brahmans.

The second one is of surprise in finding V.V.S Aiyar, a much eulogized figure, an anti-British, who had traveled incognito through France, Rome, Egypt, Mecca & Medina, Colombo, and Pondicherry, did not possess the broad-mindedness toallow the non-Brahmans, whose funds were maintaining the Gurukulam, equality in the dining hall or, in case the orthodox Brahmans were against it, he could have dissociated himself from the Gurukulam itself. It seems to me that casteism, like the proverbial leopard’s spots, would not leave the minds of even a person like him.

The instance of V.V.S. Aiyar also seems to point to a possible thinking among even the Brahman revolutionaries and freedom fighters of the time, that the caste superiority of Brahmans would continue even after jettisoning the British from India and the then existing Brahman hold on government jobs as also in the T.N.C.C. led the Brahmans to a false sense of complacency.

It is also interesting to observe that Gandhi "In a later speech in Madras in 1927, Gandhi upheld the fourfold classification of caste and the duties appropriate to each stage of life (varnashramadharma), though he firmly rejected the notion that caste had anything to do with
high or low status. Further he maintained that a ban on
intermarriage or interdining was essential to the ideal
system [9]. EVR responded to Gandhi by arguing that
support for the principle of varna. in effect relegated all
caste Hindus to the position of Sudras, which implied for
him that they were "sons of prostitutes" [10]".


Change in Gandhi's varna view
—sangom

120 Ibid., Apr. 22, 1925.
#So, the Brahmans were not as innocent as is now attempted to paint them. They had enough of intransigence not to allow their monopoly in certain matters to be diluted, and, besides, ill-will towards the non-Brahmans once they started questioning the Brahman hegemony; but as is perhaps their nature, they could never unite and take any concerted action directly against the non-Brahmans, but indulged in such cowardly tactics like heckling the non-Brahman speakers, etc. This should convince impartial readers about the Brahmans’ unique capacity for making himself unpopular and unwanted; all the energy that is now wasted to show the Brahmans as meek and modest on the face of attacks against them, can better be utilized to justify the Brahmans’ actions during those periods.— sangom

121 Ibid., (weekly ed.), Apr. 23, 1925.

122 Ibid. A little more than a month later, on June 3, he was drowned; ibid., June 5, 1925.

[ va. ve. cu. aiyar was drowned while trying to rescue his daughter in the Papanasam falls; both died.
The question that arises in my mind is, “why should a freedom fighter, who completed his Barrister course successfully and who had roamed around the world in disguise and seen the way different people lived, etc., still cling to the orthodox Brahman views on inter-dining, and more particularly why was he after sticking on to the Gurukulam at all costs?]
 
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Kunjuppu,

Your words are in quotes and my answer below that:

i have no problem with brahmins bing treated respectfully in the sangam age. how many milleniums ago was that? it has no impact on my day to day living.

This is an interjection which comes like a bolt from the blue and stands out as a wonderful example of a sore thumb. My post is in reply to a certain posts already made here by others and has a context. It is in reply to certain observations made by some people. It is not a policy statement or a sermon from a pulpit that I have made here for you to jut in and offer liberally advice not asked for. Dear Kunjuppu you should have read the complete write up and the earlier posts made by Saideo, Sangam Sir and Mr. Nara. Then you would have understood the context and only then my post would have made any meaning to you.
As for your statement under quote it is just stating the obvious. I have no disagreement whatsoever with it.

i have problems with the way we are being perceived in today's tamil nadu. this is a consequence of the interrelationships that we have had with the rest of tamil tribes in the past century. what bothers me, is that while there are no permanent friends or enemies, in our case, we do not have a strategy for improving our relationship and getting some government help for our disadvantaged.

I am not alarmed as much as you are. Even today brahmins in general are seen as a peace loving, harmless simple folk by the majority of the tamil society. It is not as if the heavens are going to crumble and come down crashing on our head any time.We do have a good number of enemies also who are powerful and we are able to deal with them and live with them in a state of sort of balance of discomfort. As for the sufferings of some sections of our society it is all part of life. Which society does not have such tales of poverty and also rags to riches stories? I strongly believe that self help is the best help. We do not want Government help.
But we will not sacrifice our right to question the Govt. whenever power is misused.Period.

it is a result of utter poverty in our thinking. i believe so. what can you do to improve the realtionship and image? that is my problem. not what the tamil society thought of brahmins 2000 years or so ago.
Dear Kunjuppu, the image is perfectly ok and does not require any make up. I find every one admiring the resourcefulness and flexibility of the community in spite of several disadvantages thrust on it.(I recently read in a magazine an answer given by Kavipperarasu Vairamuththu to a question. In it he had said clearly that பிராமணர்களின் பேராற்றலைக் கண்டு நான் வியந்து போகிறேன் ) We will continue to run the race albeit carrying the mill-stone that is hanging round our neck. My talking about the Tamil society in the Sangam period has a purpose and a context. I am here answering the people who are spinning stories about the "tension" between brahmins and NBs in the Sangam period. When you talk about some thing in that period I have to answer you only to the point and cannot bring in the utopian future. Hope you understand.

all answers of people who have ideas similar to yours is (1) brahmins were respected all through the years (2) periyar poisoned the minds of the tamils against the tambrams. so what? periyar had solid arguements. what arguements do you have to counter periyar's revolution. periyar won. now we have to roll back. what is your strategy for rollback.

I know you are a die hard fan of Periyar. I have already written enough in this forum about what I consider Periyar to be(A big fraud) and why I consider that way. You can read my arguments all there. We have to roll back what? you have not said.

let us not keep on looking back and getting upset over what we lost. how can we regain our respect? tel me agian, HOW CAN WE REGAIN OUR RESEPCT? everything you write is inconsequential.

The political power which we lost is not such a coveted piece to be sought after. What respect? I believe respect is what I give myself. I do not want some body to respect me for this and that as that kind of respect is transient and is of no real use to me. I would rather look for love and understanding. And if they are not coming forth despite my sincere efforts I will just move on. I am ready to travel only half the distance for the handshake. I know my way and I know that time waits for no one. My time is valuable.

suraju, i do beg your pardon, if you feel my post is rather strong. no way, i intend to belittle or mock you for your quotes. far from it. it is an erudition, that i admire. but to me it is all ஏட்டு சுரைக்காய் that is of no practical use. we need some political acumen, some sharp think, good PR and above all a heart - to introspect, and understand what went wrong.
Kunjuppu, you need not be apologetic. You are only critical of my ideas not of ME because you do not know me as I do not know you. About the ஏட்டு சுரைக்காய் I have already explained the context. If what I have posted here is ஏட்டு சுரைக்காய் what would you say about the posts of Sangom Sir and Mr. Nara on this subject which is the origin of this conversation? Are they also ஏட்டு சுரைக்காய்?
all agree on the cause and effect, then we can do something. harping on sangam age and damage done by periyar is of no use. you need to come up with ideas to improve our lot and reagain that respect. negative thinking simply won't do any more. hot air just raises the temperature of an already sweltering atmosphere here.

I understand your sarcasm about hot air. I have not harped on Sangam age. I pointed out only certain flaws in the understanding of the society at that time by members here.Letting out a little bit of hot air in an already sweltering enclosure is not going to make the situation worse. The incremental quantity of hot air thus released would only make people think more vigorously as you are obviously doing now!

Cheers.
 
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Thank you suraju for your detailed reply.

I do apologize, if my post sideswiped you. somehow reading your post, probably was the last straw to the protracted arguments about how great and respected tambram were till periyar came.

I will let sangom elaborate on the evolution of periyar, from being a loyal friend to arch enemy of the Brahmins. So, in that context, while you are perfectly welcome to call him a ‘fraud’, I feel that you have not due thought to why periyar became what he was, in the latter part of his life.

Ok, you have still not given your thoughts as to how we can set right the current situation.

Folks akin to my way of thinking, have suggested introspection, and in a way, acknowledging the systemic inequalities of the past, and since we were at the top of the totem pole, assuming responsibility for it. But that has been cut down with rigour and vigour by many here.

So what is the solution? I have asked this numerous times. what can be done to improve the image of tamil Brahmins. Or we simply don’t care?

An offbeat quote from vairamuthu, is not an all encompassing answer to a widely prevalent situation. Btw I looked for this in the internet and could not find it.

Thanks
 
namaste shri suraju06.

Brilliant, your posts 355 and 356! I was actually looking for similar passages. I feel this is a good answer to what shrI Sangom made out earlier in this thread that the kings supported the brahmins so the people of other castes tolerated them (which would amount to the people tolerating their king himself, as we tolerate our politicians today!) Let us compile such evidences in a separate thread. I have already started a thread 'Religion and culture of our Tamizh ancestors' in the 'Philosophy and Traditions' forum, where I have started exploring the religion and worship part. I suggest you open a thread 'Religion and culture of our Tamizh ancestors - II' and copy your valuable passages there and work on adding further evidences. These two threads could be an effective answer to the negative propaganda against brahmins.
 
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....I notice two aspects here. One is that even prior to EVR’s forming DK, the anti-Brahman sentiment had reached its crescendo....

Dear Shri Sangom, what is interesting is the expression of anti-Brahmin feeling before EVR was mainly by FC NB, Saivas to be specific. They were no less castiests than the TBs, though they expressed their casteism in a somewhat different way. They also opposed supremacy of Sanskrit over Tamil.

When EVR came into the scene, he criticized the very idea of birth-based differences and any sort of superstition regardless of source, whether Aryan or Dravidian. He also opposed eulogizing an imagined past greatness, Sanskrit or Tamil. He didn't spare even the venerable Thiruvalluvar.

All this blasphamy was too much for the Saiva wing. The conflict became so intense that the Saiva wing accused the EVR wing of Vaishnavite treachery and characterized EVR's writings as "vomit". It took the intervention of Thiru. Ve. Ka, to patch things up.

EVR's writings on woman's rights are eye openers. Paraphrasing what was said of Gandhi by an eminent scientist, I feel I can scarcely believe a great revolutionary like EVR, lived among us during our life time.

The second one is of surprise in finding V.V.S Aiyar, a much eulogized figure,
When EVR found out about the segregation between B and NB, as the Secretary at that time, did not immediately stop the funding, but only asked V.V.S. Iyer to stop this practice that he felt would leave an indelible inferiority feeling among the NB young boys. This shows that EVR was not opposed to the Gurukulam itself, only the practice of segregation.

V.V.S. Iyer refused. Then, EVR, using his authority as the Secretary, didn't permit TNCC funds for the Gurukulam to be released. But, VVS went around EVR and got the money released through the Joint-Secretary anyway. EVR got incensed and went public with his criticism. This forced the hand of other Congressmen who were only paying lip-service to social reform. In the end, VVS Iyer resigned rather than agree to abandon segregation of the boys along B and NB lines.

It is experiences like this that hardened EVR's view of Brahmins in general. However great of a progressive a Brahmin may be, as long as he feels he is a Brahmin, he will always remain a casteist. EVR's opposition was to the ideology of Brahminism and those who try to perpetuate it, not individual Brahmins. He is known to have financially supported individual Brahmins who came to him seeking help.

Cheers!
 
I am here answering the people who are spinning stories about the "tension" between brahmins and NBs in the Sangam period.

Dear Shri Raju,

Let us leave the politics that is made out of history. Here i want us to be historically accurate. Is there any proof that brahmins of the Sangam period were the 'Vedic brahmins'? (Please note the context of 'vedic brahmins' described below).

I ask this question because in Srilanka (which retains the old social motif and hence is of interest in the southern-india context), we find that men who did havans / homams and recited the vedas were called Vedarala, not brahmanas.

The Srilankan temple priests were also not called brahmanas. They are / were called either a devarala (man of god) or kapurala (protector man). Quite apparently in the Srilankan context, merely reciting the vedas and doing havans does not make one a brahmana.

Am mentioning the above because no one has explored the possibility that there could have been vedic shakhas in the past (which disappeared) in which priests (who conducted havans) were not called brahmanas.

So far as i have read, the monks of atharva-veda were not called brahmana [other please correct me if this is wrong]. Only the priests of the atharva were called brahmana.

Even the Rig priest was called a Hotr, a sama priest was a Udgatr and a Yajur priest was an Adhvaryu. It remains controversial and debatable if the term 'brahmana' was applicable to the hotrs, udgatra and adhvaryus.

From the Tholkappiyam, we understand that there was an organization of social classes wrt occupations, grouped as melor or keelor. We also understand that the tamils followed a system of Kutams (Kutis) which (imo) is similar to the megalithic clan system. But i feel the kutams are somewhat dis-similar to the caste system, since people of one kutam (clan) could follow different occupations (unlike the rigid caste system). Some context is here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/4806-britis-blame-40.html#post57915

There is no evidence of birth-based varna system being followed in Tamilakam either from the Tholkappiyam or any Sangam literature. There is no evidence that the ancient anthanars (priests and philosophers) of tamilakam were called brahmins.

There is also no evidence that the anthanars were acknowledged as brahmins by the 'vedic brahmins' who settled in Tamilakam at a later time. I suppose these 'vedic brahmins' were the rigvedis, samavedis and yajurvedis; and did not include the atharva-vedis.

According to George Hart, the 'vedic brahmins' came into tamilakam from 100 AD to 700 AD. It is quite understandable that there were tensions between the new entrants and the existing priests.

Regards.
 
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namaste shri suraju06.

Brilliant, your posts 355 and 356! I was actually looking for similar passages. I feel this is a good answer to what shrI Sangom made out earlier in this thread that the kings supported the brahmins so the people of other castes tolerated them (which would amount to the people tolerating their king himself, as we tolerate our politicians today!) Let us compile such evidences in a separate thread. I have already started a thread 'Religion and culture of our Tamizh ancestors' in the 'Philosophy and Traditions' forum, where I have started exploring the religion and worship part. I suggest you open a thread 'Religion and culture of our Tamizh ancestors - II' and copy your valuable passages there and work on adding further evidences. These two threads could be an effective answer to the negative propaganda against brahmins.

Dear Shri Saidevo,

I was prompted by your remark "negative propaganda against brahmins". If you will kindly go back - with the patience it will require - into the whole series of developments, you will find that -

1. Shri Vivek started a series of posts criticising whatever I had excerpted from the book “Politics and Social Conflict in South India (The Non-Brahman Movement and Tamil Separatism, 1916-1929)”: Sponsored by the Center for South and Southeast Asia Studies, University of California, Berkeley. Page numbers furnished refer to this publication, and blaming EVR/DK/DMK for their anti-Brahman stance and propaganda.

2. Since I believe that the anti-Brahman sentiment in the old Madras Presidency and later in Tamil Nadu, was not solely or purely due to the nefarious mindset of EVR/DK/DMK and that we Tabras are as much to blame as they are (please note that I am not shifting the blame, but only saying that Tabras could have completely avoided all these troubles, if only they as a community and their political/social/religious leadership had the sagacity and foresight, which is claimed in ample measures and also as the sole proprietory characteristic of Brahmans by some members when talking about meritocracy, evils of the reservation system, etc.).

3. The said book gives, according to me, a detailed and impartial account of the developments relating to the Brahman—non-Brahman tensions in tamil Nadu, covering its origin and developments. Naturally, and true to the view held by me (and may be some others like Nara and Kunjuppu), there are many points which are not so glorious for the Brahmans to digest.

4. If you consider these references as "negative propaganda against brahmins" (which these are not; they are simple historic facts IMO), the appropriate way to make an "effective answer" is not, in my view, embarking upon a further protracted discussion about whether the Tamil Brahmans were the cynosure of all Tamil eyes during the cangam period (whose date/s are themselves not very clear), but by elaborating on our present standing, virtues and how the Brahmans deserve to be accepted as part of the society.

A theoretical discussion about the past cangam age can lead to more and more negative aspects coming out of the proverbial cupboard and will jeopardize your very purpose. I am saying this not because I am an authority on cangam literature or that I have done enough research on them but because the Dravidian group did have many intellects as brilliant as , or even more brilliant than, the Brahman's and they would not have just expressed the views without adequate supporting materials. When you said you are withdrawing from posting here I felt that this aspect had been envisaged by you, but now, seeing the zeal with which you are giving encouragement to Shri Raju, I am surprised.

So, I request you as also Shri Raju to think over and decide whether we should go on with this war of words which may provide a vast mine of materials to any one attempting to launch an attack against Brahmans in future. If your answer is in the affirmative, I will go ahead. Till then, let me wait....
 
Hi Folks,
As I have quoted from the sangam literature, I give below the meaning of difficult words so that the readers can understand what is said:
(1) ஐங்குறுநூறு - ஓரம்போகியார்.

புல் ஆர்க- புல்லரிசிச் சோற்றை உண்க:ஆதன் - ஒரு குறு நில மன்னன்:அவினி-ஆதனுடைய குடியில் பிறந்தோன் :

இந்தக் கவிதையில் பார்ப்பார் ஒதுக் என்ற வரிகள் அன்றைய சமூகத்தில் பார்ப்பனர்கள் இருந்ததையும் வேதம் முதலானவை ஓதுதல் அவர்தம் தொழில் என்பதும் தெளிவாகிறது. சமூகத்தில் வாழ்ந்த தோழி பாடுவதாக வரும் இப்பாடலில் பார்ப்பனர்களுக்கு எதிரான கருத்து எதுவும் வெளிப்படவில்லை. மாறாக அவர்களை வாழ்த்துவதாகவே வந்துள்ளன என்ற உண்மையை மனதில் கொள்ள வேண்டும்.

(2 ) இது காதலனுடன் ஓடிப்போன தன மகளை குறித்து அந்தணர்களிடம் கேட்கும் தாயின் கூற்றாக அமைந்துள்ளது.
Meaninng :Oh Brahmins! You who walk beneath the raised umbrella's protecting shade, sheltered from the hurtling rays of the Sun, With pitchers slung from chords, And holy trident staffs(திரிதண்டி அந்தணர்கள்) duly resting on your shoulders, And with undistracted minds controlling the senses, O Brahmins who tread the path of virtueAnd whose ordained duty bids you to go across this torrid desert!
Did you not O Brahmins see them here!
And did you not too O venerable Sir!
Did you not see those two,
My own daughter and another woman's son,
Who had met each other in secret,
But are declared lovers now?

The sage replies typically as follows:

How could we say we did not see them?
We met them both on the desert path:
A youth of noble bearing we saw,
And with him was an artless maiden,
richly jewelled, bravely treading the difficult desert
Her mother you seem to be.
The fragrant sandal, sylvan-born,
serves only those who rub it on
No good is it to its mountain mother,
If you reflect Even such is your daughter unto you.

In this piece of literature also we find brahmins being addressed in glorious terms. They are called venerable. These are certainly no indications of any tension. Now is there any indication that it was a small group which was alien to the common people in the society.

(3)அந்தி அந்தணர்.....--brahmins engage themselves in their ordained rites in the evening.

This reference is also secular. It just says brahmins engaging in their normal activities. Where is the indication of tension in this?

(4)மாநிலம் சேவடி ஆக ..............The meaning of this piece is not difficult to understand. It is an out and out hymn sung praising the God திருமால் .In this piece திகிரி means சக்ராயுதம் and திகிரியோன் means திருமால்.

(5) விரிநூல் - ஆகமங்களை உணர்ந்த : பொலங்கலம்-பொன்னால் ஆனா கலன்:உறை சிறை - கரையில் வாழும் , நெறி-வேத நெறி ,நுடங்கு அழல்-அசையும் நெருப்பு சுவாலை
Meaning: And gentle brahmins who wear the sacred thread of triple twist..............tremulous flame rising up from the sacred fire kindled and fed with devout rites by brahmins proficient in vedas...........

In this piece also brahmins are spoken of with respect. No trace of malice towards them.
Conclusion: Brahmins were as much part of the society as the other members. They were known for seeking knowledge, speaking truth, conducting religious rites,moving across the country from place to place in search of knowledge. It is only the later day politicians who have cast them in the role of a villain. Sangam times are ancient and Tamils lived a life free of ennui, malice, hatred etc., Brahmins were held in great esteem in this society. Vedic lore was well known in those times. The God Vishnu is a vedic God. He is spoken of in these sangam literatures. Paripaadal, which I have not quoted and Thirumurukaatruppadai are full of hymns in praise of thirumaal and murugan. Those who say that brahmins were not part of the society at that time or that there was tension between the society and them are only unaware of the facts or are not willing to see the facts. They are prejudiced.

Dear Shri Raju,

I hope you will not mind this intervention from me.

The அந்தணர் did not refer to themselves as brahmana, brahmins or piraminan. Then why should we call them brahmins?

If the Anthanar were called Anthanars, it would be fair for us also to call them Anthanars.

Also, Did the term Thirumaal refer to Vishnu of the Vedas or to Krishna? As you may be aware Krishna is supposedly non-vedic.

Regards.
 
Dear Kunjuppu,

I do apologize, if my post sideswiped you. somehow reading your post, probably was the last straw to the protracted arguments about how great and respected tambram were till periyar came.

I am uncomfortable with apologies that come from elders and from those who I do not know personally. As I said already, I understand perfectly that here it is only the ideas that are critically looked at. It is not as if periyar was a turning point in Tambram's history. What periyar achieved was consolidation of all other communities into a monolith to enjoy power and for this he manipulated them to see brahmins as the villains.

I will let sangom elaborate on the evolution of periyar, from being a loyal friend to arch enemy of the Brahmins. So, in that context, while you are perfectly welcome to call him a ‘fraud’, I feel that you have not due thought to why periyar became what he was, in the latter part of his life.

I have understood what was the motive that drove periyar to treat the brahmins as enemies. Periyar would have remained in the memory of tamils for his pranks and his nuisance politics just as a leader of a small group of misguided youth but for the stupidity of the Congress party and its mishandling the Hindi agitation. Well, we have today a party whose value system includes unabashedly accumulating wealth by corrupt practices. So much is enough about the so called evolution, revolution and the revolutionary you and Sangam Sir are talking about.

Ok, you have still not given your thoughts as to how we can set right the current situation. Folks akin to my way of thinking, have suggested introspection, and in a way, acknowledging the systemic inequalities of the past, and since we were at the top of the totem pole, assuming responsibility for it. But that has been cut down with rigour and vigour by many here.So what is the solution? I have asked this numerous times. what can be done to improve the image of tamil Brahmins. Or we simply don’t care?

I dont believe that brahmins have to own up any thing about systemic flaws as the system was sustained by every one, not just brahmins. Brahmins reached the top of the totem pole because they were pitchforked to that point.

Your question "What do we do now?" is a simple question but the answer is very difficult to give here. We can wait for some one to start a movement to remove casteism from the society and give him full support.
I am certainly not having someone like periyar in my mind.This sentence(in blue) is succinct but speaks volumes about the helplessness of a mature , elite, sincere and well informed community of people. Hope you get it.
An offbeat quote from vairamuthu, is not an all encompassing answer to a widely prevalent situation. Btw I looked for this in the internet and could not find it.
Because it is at a tangent to your prejudices it appears an off-beat remark. Please remember that a poet known for his erudition and his dravidian background does not make such off-beat remarks unless he has thought of it or it comes from the bottom of his heart with full conviction. If you get an opportunity you may buy a book with the title பாற்கடல் which contains all the questions and answers given by Vairamuththu to the readers of a magazine by name Kumudam.Cheers.
 
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Dear Sangom Sir,
So, I request you as also Shri Raju to think over and decide whether we should go on with this war of words which may provide a vast mine of materials to any one attempting to launch an attack against Brahmans in future. If your answer is in the affirmative, I will go ahead. Till then, let me wait....
You may be holding the scholars of Dravidian parties in great awe and respect. It is your right. But to expect that others should agree with this mind-set is not the right thing. Let us mine into the Sangam literature and look at them to know whether the partisan view of you and Mr. Nara that there were no brahmins at the Sangam period is right or wrong. Then we also have find an answer to your position that there was tension in the relation between brahmins and others at that time. We need not be afraid of bringing things(if there are indeed any) out in the open from under the carpet. There is no need to hold out an ominous threat here. We are all matured.Brahmins have withstood all the attack so far. They can take whatever more is coming.But truth should prevail.
 
Dear Sangom Sir,

If you consider these references as "negative propaganda against brahmins" (which these are not; they are simple historic facts IMO), the appropriate way to make an "effective answer" is not, in my view, embarking upon a further protracted discussion about whether the Tamil Brahmans were the cynosure of all Tamil eyes during the cangam period (whose date/s are themselves not very clear), but by elaborating on our present standing, virtues and how the Brahmans deserve to be accepted as part of the society.
Not so casually Sir. The post I have made is in response to some thing from your and Mr. Nara's side. When you spun a cock and bull tale about the Sangam period society I had to point out the flaw in it. I never claim that we should be the cynosure of the tamil society today or that we were that in the Sangam society either. I have just said that Brahmins were there in Sangam times as well and in support have given evidences.I am not arguing that brahmins should be accepted as part of the tamil society today as I have no doubt at all that they are already a part of the tamil society. Neither majority of NBs nor the Bs have an iota of doubt that we are all part of the Tamil Society. Cheers.
 
HH,

Even the Rig priest was called a Hotr, a sama priest was a Udgatr and a Yajur priest was an Adhvaryu. It remains controversial and debatable if the term 'brahmana' was applicable to the hotrs, udgatra and adhvaryus.

As far as I know, the terms hota, adhvaryu and udgata are all designations of those who conduct a yajna. These names are given to them on the basis of their given roles and responsibilities in performing the yajna. Please read my posts once again. The sangam literature clearly indicates that the brahmins of that time were known for chanting vedas. vedas and brahmins were inseparable it appears. If your objection is to use of the term brahmins instead of anthanar, parppar, vethiyar etc., it is just argument for argument's sake. I do not want to continue this.
 
Dear Sangom Sir,


Not so casually Sir. The post I have made is in response to some thing from your and Mr. Nara's side. When you spun a cock and bull tale about the Sangam period society I had to point out the flaw in it. I never claim that we should be the cynosure of the tamil society today or that we were that in the Sangam society either. I have just said that Brahmins were there in Sangam times as well and in support have given evidences.

Dear Shri Raju,

If my words have given the impression, that your posts were unilateral, i.e., of your own initiative, I am sorry, that was not my intention. I am aware that it is in response to posts from me and Nara. But, despite that, I am a bit wary of digging up cangam works and present evidence for Brahmans being a group apart, but whose existence has been duly mentioned in the works since they purport to give as true a picture of life those days, as possible.

Any way, I will await Saidevo's reaction also before I go further.

I am not arguing that brahmins should be accepted as part of the tamil society today as I have no doubt at all that they are already a part of the tamil society. Neither majority of NBs nor the Bs have an iota of doubt that we are all part of the Tamil Society. Cheers.

In such a case why at all should some members blame DK/EVR/DMK now and why should there be a grouse about reservations? It is the Tamil society which has approved both these and, if we feel that we are sure that we are part and parcel of that society we need not have such feelings. I don't understand.
 
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.... When you spun a cock and bull tale about the Sangam period society I had to point out the flaw in it. ...

raju,

can we avoid terms like 'cock and bull', please. it does not behoove well of good writing behaviour in my opinion.

though it does not directly attack the person that is sangom, i think, it borders on violation of his integrity. such a challenge is best proven with backup arguements, and not with emotional epithets.

you would find your arguements carry as much weight without these added on characterestics, and which are best avoided.
not only to maintain the decorum of the forum, but also our personal regard for each other.

thank you.
 
HH,
As far as I know, the terms hota, adhvaryu and udgata are all designations of those who conduct a yajna. These names are given to them on the basis of their given roles and responsibilities in performing the yajna. Please read my posts once again. The sangam literature clearly indicates that the brahmins of that time were known for chanting vedas. vedas and brahmins were inseparable it appears. If your objection is to use of the term brahmins instead of anthanar, parppar, vethiyar etc., it is just argument for argument's sake. I do not want to continue this.
Dear Shri Raju,

I have read your posts and that is why i am asking you this.

The present day brahmins are considered descendents of vedic-brahmins who entered Tamilakam after 100 AD. They are not considered descendents of the anthanars.

As far as i understand, the anthanars were not recognized as brahmins.

Your posts 355 and 366 are not correct in using the term brahmin for an anthanar.

If you want to use the term brahmin for an anthanar, then you will need to do further research and prove that the anthanars were recognised as brahmins. Infact, i too am trying to find details on that.

Regards.
 
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namaste shrI Sangom.

I prepared a long reply to your post no.364, but concur with you that whatever points we try to estalish pro and con, vying with each other, can aggravate the situation. Therefore, if yourself, HH, Nara, Kunjuppu and other reformists here won't post anything praising the Dravidian group just for the sake of emphasising your own views that seek to oppose the brahmin tradition, I think we can put an end to unnecessarily long discussions that serve no purpose after all, and concentrate on learning our scriptures, knowing our pujas and stotras and discussing how best we can follow our dharma, without sheding our identity, or the Vedas or the Sanskrit.
 
Therefore, if yourself, HH, Nara, Kunjuppu and other reformists here won't post anything praising the Dravidian group just for the sake of emphasising your own views that seek to oppose the brahmin tradition, I think we can put an end to unnecessarily long discussions that serve no purpose after all, and concentrate on learning our scriptures, knowing our pujas and stotras and discussing how best we can follow our dharma, without sheding our identity, or the Vedas or the Sanskrit.

Dear Shri Saidevo,

Please let me know where have I made any post praising the dravidian group ?
And that too for 'the sake of' empasising views that 'seek to' oppose the brahmin tradition.

I feel discussions on pujas, stotras, scriptures, vedas, sanskrit, etc can all go on on one end. Discussions on history, caste system, etc in no way hamper them. So such discussions too can go on. There are relevant sections within the forum for different topics.

Regards.
 
namaste shrI Sangom.

I prepared a long reply to your post no.364, but concur with you that whatever points we try to estalish pro and con, vying with each other, can aggravate the situation. Therefore, if yourself, HH, Nara, Kunjuppu and other reformists here won't post anything praising the Dravidian group just for the sake of emphasising your own views that seek to oppose the brahmin tradition, I think we can put an end to unnecessarily long discussions that serve no purpose after all, and concentrate on learning our scriptures, knowing our pujas and stotras and discussing how best we can follow our dharma, without sheding our identity, or the Vedas or the Sanskrit.

Dear Shri Saidevo,

What you "demand" seems to be disproportionate to the matter. I can talk for myself only and not for any one else. All that I can say is that in this thread I may have to post once or twice more, so that relevant observations from the cited book is given in some complete manner. I cannot bind myself to refrain for ever from "anything praising the Dravidian group just for the sake of emphasising [my] own views that seek to oppose the brahmin tradition." I reserve my right to express my views as and when any need arises in future.
 
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