no offence meant.
i appreciate your sharp response. i have touched a raw nerve. apologies.
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no offence meant.
i appreciate your sharp response. i have touched a raw nerve. apologies.
N
Nara
Guest
Thanks for the apology, but I was not looking for an apology and it does no good to me. It is the fact that you found an equivalency between supremacists and me that hurts. An apology is not going to change that, would it?
Cheers!
N
nachi naga
Guest
nara,
கழுடைய்க்கு தெரியும்மா கற்பூர வாசனை is what i wrote.you know me better than to take it in the literal sense,phew i am glad you laughed at it,did not take personal.we agree to disagree,but then chums we can be.
swami not wanting inter-caste marriage is a reasonable feeling.i think swayamvaram to be encouraged within tb,then inter-brahmin of diverse linguistic origin,and then maybe tnb,nb...perhaps inter-faith at a very evolved egalitarian society like some countries.right now within tb is best.
கழுடைய்க்கு தெரியும்மா கற்பூர வாசனை is what i wrote.you know me better than to take it in the literal sense,phew i am glad you laughed at it,did not take personal.we agree to disagree,but then chums we can be.
swami not wanting inter-caste marriage is a reasonable feeling.i think swayamvaram to be encouraged within tb,then inter-brahmin of diverse linguistic origin,and then maybe tnb,nb...perhaps inter-faith at a very evolved egalitarian society like some countries.right now within tb is best.
nara,
an apology made in good faith does deserve to be accepted. which is what my apology was, and i am sorry that you do not find it acceptable.
by nature i am a centrist, a doubter with no absolute values. so when i see absolutism or extremism i tend to tender my objections.
while you and i see eye to eye on many many issues here, i still feel that both, folks like us and folks like swami, have both places here, as the world is big enough for both of us.
seen from their eyes, we are probably despicable. it is in this context i used the 'mirror image' analogy. you might also want to look as the mirror image of lies being truth or vice versa.
all of us here are neither extremes, just differing shades of grey. that is what i think.
i was calling for tolerance on all sides. if that was not evident, mea culpa. my english is wanting.
finally, re swami's absolutist comment, i think your heart is large enough to let it go and move on.
with a much narrower and smaller heart, even i ignored it.
peace to you.
an apology made in good faith does deserve to be accepted. which is what my apology was, and i am sorry that you do not find it acceptable.
by nature i am a centrist, a doubter with no absolute values. so when i see absolutism or extremism i tend to tender my objections.
while you and i see eye to eye on many many issues here, i still feel that both, folks like us and folks like swami, have both places here, as the world is big enough for both of us.
seen from their eyes, we are probably despicable. it is in this context i used the 'mirror image' analogy. you might also want to look as the mirror image of lies being truth or vice versa.
all of us here are neither extremes, just differing shades of grey. that is what i think.
i was calling for tolerance on all sides. if that was not evident, mea culpa. my english is wanting.
finally, re swami's absolutist comment, i think your heart is large enough to let it go and move on.
with a much narrower and smaller heart, even i ignored it.
peace to you.
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N
Nara
Guest
Dear HH greetings!
There is a tendency for people to think that they own a thread they start. This is not so. Only Praveen and the moderators own the threads. We can only request members to stay on topic, nothing more.
Further, given the discussion on this thread is about advising parents to arrange marriage with NIB girls, almost all the posts have been on topic. The reason some views are considered distraction is because they are opposing ones.
Any match that is found in spite of any of these is very likely to be under some kind of open or concealed duress. This could very well be true in cases of TNB matches. But, the problems that arise from NIB matches will be several orders more difficult to handle compared to TNB matches due to language, distance, custom, etc. In these circumstances, it is the girl who will suffer most. When these difficulties arise, the organizers of these matches will be long gone feeling proud of having preserved the Brahmin purity for one more couple for one more generation.
Doing something in a reckless manner is not necessarily better than doing nothing at all.
Cheers!
There is a tendency for people to think that they own a thread they start. This is not so. Only Praveen and the moderators own the threads. We can only request members to stay on topic, nothing more.
Further, given the discussion on this thread is about advising parents to arrange marriage with NIB girls, almost all the posts have been on topic. The reason some views are considered distraction is because they are opposing ones.
The way the problem is presented, I understand there are many lc/lmc TBs boys who are unable to find suitable TB brides. The hope is there will be some NIB girls who may not be as choosy as the TB girls. Is it reasonable to expect an NIB girl to be any less selective than a comparable TB girl? Unless the human nature of NIB is completely different from that of TB, the answer can only be no.
Any match that is found in spite of any of these is very likely to be under some kind of open or concealed duress. This could very well be true in cases of TNB matches. But, the problems that arise from NIB matches will be several orders more difficult to handle compared to TNB matches due to language, distance, custom, etc. In these circumstances, it is the girl who will suffer most. When these difficulties arise, the organizers of these matches will be long gone feeling proud of having preserved the Brahmin purity for one more couple for one more generation.
Doing something in a reckless manner is not necessarily better than doing nothing at all.
Cheers!
N
Nara
Guest
Dear Kunjuppu, Greetings!
I started my comment with a thanks, why is that not sufficient to indicate acceptance?
Leaving that aside, in principle, I don't accept the notion an apology offered in good faith must be accepted. I did not want an apology, why must I be required to accept it, but I did accept it, but that is not the point. From what you have written below it is clear your apology is not about what hurt me. So, however sincerely it was meant, compelling me to accept the apology is insult over injury.
But I did accept your apology for I know it was meant sincerely, and I shall accept it a second time to be sure.
Leaving all this aside, I think I will survive even the rebuke from an eminent person like you.
We need more of you to keep us extremists in check.
In my post that started all this I had just one sentence about Shri Sharma which ended with "nice company to keep". Is this the reason you think this? This is about supporting some of the supremacist views, not about banning those views. I don't take back seat to anyone when it comes to freedom of expression. I have always stood for free expression and have jumped in to keep discussions civil so the moderators need not come in with their editing knives. So, this is a complete red herring.
Cheers!
I started my comment with a thanks, why is that not sufficient to indicate acceptance?
Leaving that aside, in principle, I don't accept the notion an apology offered in good faith must be accepted. I did not want an apology, why must I be required to accept it, but I did accept it, but that is not the point. From what you have written below it is clear your apology is not about what hurt me. So, however sincerely it was meant, compelling me to accept the apology is insult over injury.
But I did accept your apology for I know it was meant sincerely, and I shall accept it a second time to be sure.
Leaving all this aside, I think I will survive even the rebuke from an eminent person like you.
Thank you, I guess
We need more of you to keep us extremists in check.This is the second time you are saying this. You may have felt Shri Sharma does not belong here at some point in time and probably making a subconscious correction, I don't know. But when did I ever say Shri Sharma does not belong here, pray tell me?
In my post that started all this I had just one sentence about Shri Sharma which ended with "nice company to keep". Is this the reason you think this? This is about supporting some of the supremacist views, not about banning those views. I don't take back seat to anyone when it comes to freedom of expression. I have always stood for free expression and have jumped in to keep discussions civil so the moderators need not come in with their editing knives. So, this is a complete red herring.
Cheers!
Dear Shri Nara,
What little i know reg northern indians is from atleast 10 years back. Back then, i remember some ppl (or a few outliers in those groups) who took great delight in ridiculing the ways of the madrasis whenever they got a chance.
Comes to me my mind now...in a gathering i remember one pandya guy was so angry that a madrasi (narasimha rao) was a PM. I hardly remember all those rants about 'madrasis' now, but one comment seems to have lingered in my memory "ab in saalon ke liye sansad mein idli dosa banate honge"...i remember that topics switched, but often came back to southies with everone making fun of southies on their accent, food, coconut oil stories...
So far i have come across northie-southie mixed marriages but only among southies who lived all their lives in north india or vice-versa (and not a single one of them is an arranged marriage - and that makes a big diff i think)...
Today things might be diff. There is far more interaction b/w ppl. Yet this overwhelming sense of superiority might exist in some ppl or some sections...i dunno...
Imo, a northie female wud readily marry a southie male (as an arranged marriage)- but only if she does not get a good guy within her own northie lot.
However, today the challenge is not in getting ppl married (to me most comments on this thread are myopic) - rather it is in getting ppl to remain married.
Divorce is a stark reality. A couple cannot remain maried for the sake of caste, to please anyone or for anything else, unless they themselves have a fondness for one another (which unfortunately in an arranged marrige cud depend heavily on the in-laws, relatives and all 3rd parties)..
After the honeymoon period is over, the grind of the daily life and its travails can result in splitting even the most adjusting couple apart.
I read somewhere in this forum abt 45% divorce cases..
While females are extremely carrer oriented these days, am not sure females wud really jeopardize their lives by seeking divorce unless there is some 'real' problem..i sincerely hope females themselves speak up on an other thread (by the way, renu and amala, where are u ladies..please come back soon )..
Anyways Shri Nara, all this talk is not going to help settle a whopping number of guys (i really do not know what is the solution). Imo, it wud be tuf to find females who have remained unmarried beyond the age of 30 unless
a) there is a problem at home or with the lady
b) some ladies prefer to be independent and do not want to consider marriage ever, or;
c) if the female prefers to wait for the right guy rather than compromising..
d) or if the female is a free-spirit with no fixed ideas abt marriage..(i know of a journalist in a travelling job loving life with no regrets..)..
Am not sure ladies from any of those categories wud suit the orthodoxy here...
RVR
0
Prof Nara Sir,
Migration of people from North India to South India is taking place in very large numbers now.
There is heavy shortage of manpower in Tamilnadu now.
Even in Hotels like Saravana Bhavan, we are seeing lot of north Indian servers who doesn't know Tamil. But the business is going on as usual.
Most of the factories in Chennai, Coimbatore, Tirupur etc are employing workers from Bihar, Orissa etc.
None of the above knows the local language but employers have no other option except employing them to run their businesses.
I am not talking about white collar jobs since most of them knows English.
After liberalization started two decades back, South grows much faster than North India not only in Information Technology related areas but also in manufacturing sectors.
South India has patronized English and were avoiding Hindi. Today English is a major asset for call centers, business process outsourcing sectors apart from information technology. If Chinese mastered English, we would have lost the race to them even in these areas.
North India has started learning English with full vigor now. Through out North India, English coaching centers are mushrooming like anything.
South Indians are eating Roti/Chappathi with Dal regularly and North Indians prefer Idli/Dosa with sambar & Chutney.
The gap is narrowing between North and South on day to day basis. People from North wants to migrate to South.
Definitely North/South alliances will evolve even without our intervention.
We are not going to search for girls in UP, Bihar etc immediatley. Let us try get South Indian Brahmin girls first. Karnataka has 5% brahmin population. Mysore/Bangalore belt speaks Tamil very well. Mangalore/Udipi belt (Konkan belt) was part of old Madras Province and have lot of cultural association even today. Chennai has lot of eminent Kannadigas like Dr Badrinath of Sankara Nethralaya, Woodlands/Dasaprakash hotel owners and lot of others.
I don't expect our community boys and their parents are going to accept our views totally. To start with I don't expect more than 10% of the people accept our proposal which itself is a very tall figure. It means hardly 100 to 200 people who are attending our swayamvaram functions. Let us try to satisfy them first within South India itself. Let us target Karnataka first before moving to other areas.
Personally I always respect your views and shall definitely keep your warnings in mind.
All the best
Migration of people from North India to South India is taking place in very large numbers now.
There is heavy shortage of manpower in Tamilnadu now.
Even in Hotels like Saravana Bhavan, we are seeing lot of north Indian servers who doesn't know Tamil. But the business is going on as usual.
Most of the factories in Chennai, Coimbatore, Tirupur etc are employing workers from Bihar, Orissa etc.
None of the above knows the local language but employers have no other option except employing them to run their businesses.
I am not talking about white collar jobs since most of them knows English.
After liberalization started two decades back, South grows much faster than North India not only in Information Technology related areas but also in manufacturing sectors.
South India has patronized English and were avoiding Hindi. Today English is a major asset for call centers, business process outsourcing sectors apart from information technology. If Chinese mastered English, we would have lost the race to them even in these areas.
North India has started learning English with full vigor now. Through out North India, English coaching centers are mushrooming like anything.
South Indians are eating Roti/Chappathi with Dal regularly and North Indians prefer Idli/Dosa with sambar & Chutney.
The gap is narrowing between North and South on day to day basis. People from North wants to migrate to South.
Definitely North/South alliances will evolve even without our intervention.
We are not going to search for girls in UP, Bihar etc immediatley. Let us try get South Indian Brahmin girls first. Karnataka has 5% brahmin population. Mysore/Bangalore belt speaks Tamil very well. Mangalore/Udipi belt (Konkan belt) was part of old Madras Province and have lot of cultural association even today. Chennai has lot of eminent Kannadigas like Dr Badrinath of Sankara Nethralaya, Woodlands/Dasaprakash hotel owners and lot of others.
I don't expect our community boys and their parents are going to accept our views totally. To start with I don't expect more than 10% of the people accept our proposal which itself is a very tall figure. It means hardly 100 to 200 people who are attending our swayamvaram functions. Let us try to satisfy them first within South India itself. Let us target Karnataka first before moving to other areas.
Personally I always respect your views and shall definitely keep your warnings in mind.
All the best
sangom
0
RVR,
Talking about labour in general, there is a large influx of (cheaper) labour from T. Nadu, W. Bengal, Bihar etc., to Kerala. Of course these people may not be Bs; perhaps hardly one percent maybe. Thus there is a process of different people getting attuned to their non-native areas which reminds one of the ancient migrations of Bs from North to South, and probably vice versa, as Sankara_Sharmah cited in one of his posts here.
As you say, even if the migrant labour is not B at all, there reporting back to their relatives etc., will, in due course, remove the mental block of NIs towards SIs, let us hope.
happy,
i agree with you of the general perception of the madrasi in the north. my own impressions are dated (70s) and that was the time when overwhelming madrasis in the north were TB (i think). i think part of it was jealousy of upward mobility, part envy and part racist.
not sure if that is an issue now, considering most of the present day migration from tamil nadu to the north is non brahmin (mostly civil servants i would imagine + armed forces).
i agree with you that the discussions here may be myopic, but there is nothing wrong with that. this thread addresses a sharply defined problem, of a class of TBs, who i suspect are more conservative than the average (i may be wrong here), and who have an almost life threatening issue - marriage of a beloved son.
that these people have been at it for over 5 years on a average, we can safely assume, and out of this experience has come a sense of hopelessness, anger and frustration.
those that can surmounted the caste obstacle, would have already found a way out - marry out of caste. those are not represented here and all the more glory to them.
what we have is the dregs - bottom most leftover, though none of them would like to be considered such, and even i have a qualm using this term, but i feel is accurate.
why do we care? because these are our own tribe. misguided? maybe. racist? maybe. narrow minded? maybe. but these are still our own, and you might have inferred that the attitude of most of the initiators here, is to help this group, 'inspite of''.
so what is the targe bridal group. definitely not the high achieving self confident college educated career oriented female. most probably, lower/mid middle class, educated (degree maybe), facing the awesome reality of huge dowries (still very much a reality in the north) and above all eagerness to get married.
every arranged marriage, is an arrangement of economics and contract,, even though a lot of words are attributed to divine intervention and 'made in heaven' utterings. this is yet another one of those economic and social based arrangement, based on the realities of the society, norms, gender scarcity, but believing in a kinship to a different community based on ancient traditions and forebears.
anyone can question the validity. but nobody can argue, that this is a task centred movement, with specific goals in mind. at this point this is only a concept. we do not know if the helpees here would be willing to accept the terms. rvr projects a max of 10%.
personally, i feel, for those 30+ TB boys. these, who had trusted their parents to find them spouses. i was one such person, once upon a time. i had absolutely no skills to find a mate, and i feel, that this aspect of skill acquiring was deliberately exorcised by my upbringing. so i feel for them. for their parents, i have no feelings.
this is my take on this initiative, happy. i wish it the best, just only, for the sake of those boys. i do not believe, in this age, any girl willing to enter into such an alignment, is as innocent as we fear and getting trapped. such an arguement can be made for any arranged marriage.
V
vtv_ram9002
Guest
Inter-Brahmin marriages
It is a suggestion to be welcomed.It would have been great if links to marriage sites had been included.
what marriage sites? can you detail what you mean, if you don't mind. please.
V
vtv_ram9002
Guest
Matrimonial sites
By "marriage sites", i meant of matrimonial sites like shaadi.com, where the requirements like age, caste and geographical location are posted by the groom/bride.
RVR
0
Sri vtv_ram,
They are all commercial matrimony sites with which we don't have any connection.
Our swayamvaram functions are done at a very nominal cost of Rs.100 per event and we have made it totally free for girls at the proposed Trivandrum function.
We distribute charts free of cost during our swayamvaram events. Lot of Marriages are getting settled in our events and it is a unique proposition.
Please go through the past threads about our events at Chennai, Bangalore, Coimbatore and Trichy as well as photos of the events.
All the best
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
Talking about the so called North Indians, what is the perception of North Indians in Chennai. Any person other than the four southern states is North Indian.
We got fed up of being called Seththu family. They start talking to you in broken Hindi. Priests expect a lot of money.
I still remember the sendoff given for me in Coimbatore where one of the speakers complemented me in having learnt Tamil in such a short time.
In meetings of Tamil Brahmins people still speak to me in Hindi, Bangla or English. We do get mistaken for a gujju in Gujarat, assamese in Assam etc. A taxi driver recently proudly told my wife that he knows our language and spoke a couple of sentences. We could not make it out. Then we asked him what language is it? He said Nepali.
We do not look any different. I am writing this only to show how wrong our perceptions could be about different communities.
I had part of my schooling in the East. Hazaribagh and Kolkata. I had mastered the Bihari dialect spoken in Hazaribagh. Of course I did have to face the music as a Bihari in Kolkata. Later on in Pune and Mumbai I had no problem being a South Indian. I remember the occasion when my friends asked me to join a cycle procession in Pune for Shiv Sena. They were shouting anti South Indian slogans. Fortunately someone remembered at the last minute that I am a South Indian and I was excused. We had a hearty laugh.
Out knowledge about other communities is limited. We do not even know much about the different segments of the Brahmin community. There are many Iyers who have no idea about Iyengars and vice versa. We have a number of pre-conceived notions.
I am not exempt from such pre-conceived notions. Let us remember that when we talk about other communities.
We got fed up of being called Seththu family. They start talking to you in broken Hindi. Priests expect a lot of money.
I still remember the sendoff given for me in Coimbatore where one of the speakers complemented me in having learnt Tamil in such a short time.
In meetings of Tamil Brahmins people still speak to me in Hindi, Bangla or English. We do get mistaken for a gujju in Gujarat, assamese in Assam etc. A taxi driver recently proudly told my wife that he knows our language and spoke a couple of sentences. We could not make it out. Then we asked him what language is it? He said Nepali.
We do not look any different. I am writing this only to show how wrong our perceptions could be about different communities.
I had part of my schooling in the East. Hazaribagh and Kolkata. I had mastered the Bihari dialect spoken in Hazaribagh. Of course I did have to face the music as a Bihari in Kolkata. Later on in Pune and Mumbai I had no problem being a South Indian. I remember the occasion when my friends asked me to join a cycle procession in Pune for Shiv Sena. They were shouting anti South Indian slogans. Fortunately someone remembered at the last minute that I am a South Indian and I was excused. We had a hearty laugh.
Out knowledge about other communities is limited. We do not even know much about the different segments of the Brahmin community. There are many Iyers who have no idea about Iyengars and vice versa. We have a number of pre-conceived notions.
I am not exempt from such pre-conceived notions. Let us remember that when we talk about other communities.
OP
OP
sankara_sharmah
Guest
There were a few postings about how difficult it would be for a North Indian Bride in Tamil Nadu.
Is it easy for the Tamil Brides? Has it ever been easy?
Early 1970.
Girl born and brought up in Chennai. Has stayed in an independent bungalow in T. Nagar with Coconut and Mango trees and a lawn. Has a number of servants. Including Gardener, old ayah who used to take the Girl to school and bring her back, Peiammai (hon. Term for the cook) who never allowed her to get into the kitchen.
Gets married in Mumbai. Has to stay in a flat. Only a part time Bayi who does cleaning and washing vessels. Language problem thanks to T.N govt. Has not learnt Hindi in school.
It is a shock. A trauma. This is the case of my wife.
Recent times.
Girl in a similar situation except that the Gardener and Ayah have disappeared. Have a tough time getting a cook. So has entered the kitchen.
Gets married to a Boy in New Jersey.
Alien place. Do not understand the local people. Has a tough time even understanding the English spoken by the husband who has been in the U.S for some years. No relations nearby. New Gadgets. I can go on.
A lot of physical work when compared to what the girl is used to. No servants.
Log in to Indus ladies group for answers.
The Girl is my niece.
Is there no trauma involved in these cases? Loneliness. Alien place, Language problem.
Going from India to U.S is much more of a cultural shock then any shift between places in India. Once the euphoria of coming to U.S gets over, then the reality starts sinking in. Are the parents bothered about this?
Of course you visit your children, go around U.S and come back to India. That is a pleasnt experience. Still you feel the shock. But it is only temporary because you come back to the sfe haven India.
Have we not seen the behavior of our grand children born and brought up in the U.S when they come to India?
Is it easy for the Tamil Brides? Has it ever been easy?
Early 1970.
Girl born and brought up in Chennai. Has stayed in an independent bungalow in T. Nagar with Coconut and Mango trees and a lawn. Has a number of servants. Including Gardener, old ayah who used to take the Girl to school and bring her back, Peiammai (hon. Term for the cook) who never allowed her to get into the kitchen.
Gets married in Mumbai. Has to stay in a flat. Only a part time Bayi who does cleaning and washing vessels. Language problem thanks to T.N govt. Has not learnt Hindi in school.
It is a shock. A trauma. This is the case of my wife.
Recent times.
Girl in a similar situation except that the Gardener and Ayah have disappeared. Have a tough time getting a cook. So has entered the kitchen.
Gets married to a Boy in New Jersey.
Alien place. Do not understand the local people. Has a tough time even understanding the English spoken by the husband who has been in the U.S for some years. No relations nearby. New Gadgets. I can go on.
A lot of physical work when compared to what the girl is used to. No servants.
Log in to Indus ladies group for answers.
The Girl is my niece.
Is there no trauma involved in these cases? Loneliness. Alien place, Language problem.
Going from India to U.S is much more of a cultural shock then any shift between places in India. Once the euphoria of coming to U.S gets over, then the reality starts sinking in. Are the parents bothered about this?
Of course you visit your children, go around U.S and come back to India. That is a pleasnt experience. Still you feel the shock. But it is only temporary because you come back to the sfe haven India.
Have we not seen the behavior of our grand children born and brought up in the U.S when they come to India?
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N
Nara
Guest
Talking about appearances, I agree with you, more often than not, we don't look very different from other castes. The most virulent of Brahmin exclusivity proponent here, Shri Sharma, going by the appearance I am able to discern from his photographs, looks not very different from a range of TNB caste members. On the other hand, I know couple of NB young girls who can pass for the fairest of Brahmins. Half the world away in the U.S., my own nephew gets mistaken for a Hispanic by Hispanics themselves and they start talking to him in Spanish.
The whole caste thing is in the head, not anywhere else.
Cheers!
N
Nara
Guest
Dear Shri. sankara_sharmah, Greetings!
If what Shri Kunjuppu was saying is true, this is about people who he calls "dregs" a word he does not like yet feels very apt. The girls you fellows are targeting are with very limited education and even more limited financial wherewithal. These young girl getting married into one of these "dreg" families and moving to Madurai or Trichy with no familiar face around and nobody but her in-laws for support, is similar to that of your wife from a rich family and your niece coming to NJ in recent times?
Let them call their parents on cell phones, let them chat on Skype -- put Marie Antoinette to shame, after all she was just a silly teenager.
Cheers!
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RVR
0
Sri Sankara sharmah
Similar thing happened in my family
Way back in 1962. My eldest sister got married in Kerala. She migrated from a remote village in East Coast to another remote village in the west coast - Kerala.
My brother in law family was very big. Total seven brothers and my brother in law was the eldest. Totally male dominated family and she was the only girl in a palace like house surrounded by forests.
She has not even heard some body else speaking Malayalam in our village.I was very young at that time and when we left her after the marriage, we all wept. Personally I was unable to understand their talking as it was Malayalam mixed Tamil. No phones in our homes. Post office was the only source of communication.
Even reaching from our village to kerala will take a minimum of eighteen hours by slow trains.
She learnt to read and speak Malayalam within few months.
But as time passed, she used to identify more with her `Pugunda Veedu'. Later on she managed to get a girl from Kerala for my brother. One of my younger sister also got married in Kerala.
Now our family is fully integrated with Kerala. They also gave up Malayalam accent Tamil to a great extent. We also picked up little bit of Malayalam accent in our talking.
We can aim for National Integration with inter brahmin marriages.
All the best
Similar thing happened in my family
Way back in 1962. My eldest sister got married in Kerala. She migrated from a remote village in East Coast to another remote village in the west coast - Kerala.
My brother in law family was very big. Total seven brothers and my brother in law was the eldest. Totally male dominated family and she was the only girl in a palace like house surrounded by forests.
She has not even heard some body else speaking Malayalam in our village.I was very young at that time and when we left her after the marriage, we all wept. Personally I was unable to understand their talking as it was Malayalam mixed Tamil. No phones in our homes. Post office was the only source of communication.
Even reaching from our village to kerala will take a minimum of eighteen hours by slow trains.
She learnt to read and speak Malayalam within few months.
But as time passed, she used to identify more with her `Pugunda Veedu'. Later on she managed to get a girl from Kerala for my brother. One of my younger sister also got married in Kerala.
Now our family is fully integrated with Kerala. They also gave up Malayalam accent Tamil to a great extent. We also picked up little bit of Malayalam accent in our talking.
We can aim for National Integration with inter brahmin marriages.
All the best
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N
Nara
Guest
Dear kunjuppu,
When things get a little tense there is always an urge to sweep things under the rug and move on. I am no glutton for punishing put downs either, and would like to move on also. But -- surprise, surpirse, there is a but -- this post is crying out for a comment from me and I am unable to resist.
30+ years boys remaining unmarried is a symptom. TB girls not registering in Swayamvarams is a symptom. The problem is yet to be even vaguely defined, let alone sharply.
Only the firmly middle class tend to be conservative. The farther you go from this middle, in either direction, the more liberal people tend to get. Pygmalion is as true among TBs as the English. While putting up a stiff defense of the Varna system, Gandhi and Rajaji did not mind breaking a central tenet of the varna system.
Even the firmly middle-class are usually willing to relax any conservative rules when things get very personal, you have cited examples of this yourself.
If there is any racism in these unfortunate people the source of it are the elites. The Brahminical Matams promote this racism. Then we say these incorrigible dregs will never compromise on caste and proceed to facilitate the very thing we say is racism. Perhaps if a different message is given to them, and different opportunities are provided, may be at least some of them may not be racist dregs after all.
What is the real motivation? Finding mates for these "சோப்ளாங்கி" boys as you would say, or making sure caste lines are not broken no matter what, Shri. Sharma style.
Arranged marriage within the same subcaste at least provides some support structure and some rudimentary sort of due-process, neutral relatives, matam, etc. But the proposed alliances will leave the NIB girls completely at the tender mercies of her in-laws. This is a big difference.
Cheers!
p.s.
I wanted to know what made you think I wanted Shri Sharma silenced in the forum.
When things get a little tense there is always an urge to sweep things under the rug and move on. I am no glutton for punishing put downs either, and would like to move on also. But -- surprise, surpirse, there is a but -- this post is crying out for a comment from me and I am unable to resist.
30+ years boys remaining unmarried is a symptom. TB girls not registering in Swayamvarams is a symptom. The problem is yet to be even vaguely defined, let alone sharply.
Only the firmly middle class tend to be conservative. The farther you go from this middle, in either direction, the more liberal people tend to get. Pygmalion is as true among TBs as the English. While putting up a stiff defense of the Varna system, Gandhi and Rajaji did not mind breaking a central tenet of the varna system.
Even the firmly middle-class are usually willing to relax any conservative rules when things get very personal, you have cited examples of this yourself.
If the motivation is strong familial kind of sympathy, then the right thing to do is to do what is best for them. Those who facilitate racism after assuming that to be the overriding motivation, is at the very least accessory to racism.
If there is any racism in these unfortunate people the source of it are the elites. The Brahminical Matams promote this racism. Then we say these incorrigible dregs will never compromise on caste and proceed to facilitate the very thing we say is racism. Perhaps if a different message is given to them, and different opportunities are provided, may be at least some of them may not be racist dregs after all.
What is the real motivation? Finding mates for these "சோப்ளாங்கி" boys as you would say, or making sure caste lines are not broken no matter what, Shri. Sharma style.
For an American breakfast the chicken makes only a contribution, but the pig on the other hand is totally in. What if you are wrong about the girl "willingly" entering this arrangement? It is just another day for the facilitators. When going is good there are plenty of people around, but when a need arises that is when people tend to vanish.
Arranged marriage within the same subcaste at least provides some support structure and some rudimentary sort of due-process, neutral relatives, matam, etc. But the proposed alliances will leave the NIB girls completely at the tender mercies of her in-laws. This is a big difference.
Cheers!
p.s.
I wanted to know what made you think I wanted Shri Sharma silenced in the forum.
N
Nara
Guest
Yes HH, I agree. Not a single TB girl wants any of these guys, yet, there is a hope NIB girls will want them? Is there excess supply of NIB girls making NIB girls that desperate? Why would there be an excess supply of NIB girls? Are the NIBs more gender neutral when it comes to the babies they produce than the TBs? It does not make sense. Are there any firm data that support this assumption?
Dowry problem will drive the NIB girls into the hands of TB boys is a little too far fetched I think. This also assumes an over supply of girls or at least an even ratio of NIB girls to boys, making them different from TBs in baby boy/girl preference.
To me, this whole exercise seems to be a top-down approach to maintain caste purity. There is a lot of talk about who a brahmin is, and how brahmin is not determined by birth etc., but with their actions they betray their true castiest beliefs.
Anyway, things have a way of working itself out with solutions that evolve organically, in spite of ourselves.
Cheers!
RVR
0
Approx population of Tamil Brahmins are around 20 lakhs plus. Let us assume at 21 lakhs.
If we assume average age as 70, each age will have approx 30,000 members.
If we take 10 years i.e from age 25 to 35, where most of them get married, total population in the age may be around 3,00,000
Approx 50% should be boys and 50% should be girls. i.e 1,50,000 each.
Based on our Swayamvaram statistics, there may be a maximum of 5000 surplus boys. It means boys in that age group may be around 1,52,500 and girls may be around 1,47,500.
In percentage terms it is a low figure only.
Government of India brought a legislation against sex determination of fetus only in 1994.
Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques
I earnestly feel that a section of our own community members would have committed heinous crime of abortion of girl child before the passage of this law.
Now we are facing the shortage of girls in the market mostly born between 1975 to 1985 period
May be things will get corrected in the future.
Now the proportionate age group boys have to necessarily dilute their rigidity of tradition & customs to overcome the problem.
Whatever solution we have arrived in this thread is just a short term one and I am sure things will get normal in the coming years.
May be if the inter-brahmin marriage works out better, they can mingle liberally with other language speaking brahmins in the future. I eanestly feel that it will be very good for our community in the future also as we will be part of a larger group at all India level. Brahmins constitute more than 5% of the population at all India level and it will become a major vote bank for any political party to ignore us. If this 5% is consolidated, it can determine the fate of all political parties.
We should not join any political party but consolidate Brahmin vote bank at all India level. Let us make the political parties stop at-least brahmin bashing to get our votes.
We have to adopt a proper strategy to make our presence felt.
Please think over my above observations so that we shall take this issue forward.
All the best
If we assume average age as 70, each age will have approx 30,000 members.
If we take 10 years i.e from age 25 to 35, where most of them get married, total population in the age may be around 3,00,000
Approx 50% should be boys and 50% should be girls. i.e 1,50,000 each.
Based on our Swayamvaram statistics, there may be a maximum of 5000 surplus boys. It means boys in that age group may be around 1,52,500 and girls may be around 1,47,500.
In percentage terms it is a low figure only.
Government of India brought a legislation against sex determination of fetus only in 1994.
Pre-Natal Diagnostic Techniques
I earnestly feel that a section of our own community members would have committed heinous crime of abortion of girl child before the passage of this law.
Now we are facing the shortage of girls in the market mostly born between 1975 to 1985 period
May be things will get corrected in the future.
Now the proportionate age group boys have to necessarily dilute their rigidity of tradition & customs to overcome the problem.
Whatever solution we have arrived in this thread is just a short term one and I am sure things will get normal in the coming years.
May be if the inter-brahmin marriage works out better, they can mingle liberally with other language speaking brahmins in the future. I eanestly feel that it will be very good for our community in the future also as we will be part of a larger group at all India level. Brahmins constitute more than 5% of the population at all India level and it will become a major vote bank for any political party to ignore us. If this 5% is consolidated, it can determine the fate of all political parties.
We should not join any political party but consolidate Brahmin vote bank at all India level. Let us make the political parties stop at-least brahmin bashing to get our votes.
We have to adopt a proper strategy to make our presence felt.
Please think over my above observations so that we shall take this issue forward.
All the best
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