Am I going astray?

[sarang]

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I was told, in the thirties, we had a servant doing all odd jobs in the house. But late in the evening he will turn up fully drunk, and mouth a stream of profanities on all subjects dear to him. Some will ignore him, some will make soothing noises, but no one will argue with him or try to pacify him. After about half an hour, he will cool down, collect the food and silently slip away. Next morning he will be back in his cheery mood and smiling face. Such breed exists today too, but the morning mood is sadly missing.

 

[prasad1]

I agree to a large extent with Mr. Nara's point #69, and Sangom's points in Post #70.
But if someone wants to live in agraharam, it is up to them.
If someone wants to live anywhere and there is supply and demand for such accommodations, they are welcome (as long as it is legal there).

We do live in economic segregated communities. The artificial price of gated community is a clear example of that.

 

[C RAVI]

For all the pontifications that these guys do, these guys indulge in ad-hominem attacks as much as anyone else. The only thing this is their hypocrisy is blinding enough for them to indulge in such attacks while simultaneously claim how they despise such attacks.

Take, for example, some portions from the above post:



So someone voluntarily leaving agraharam cannot yearn to go back to agraharam? Do they would have to explain away all these silly questions that these hypocrites raise if they want to write they would like to live in an agraharam? If an NRI person wants to return back to India, would he be condescendingly asked why he wants to return to India since he left this country for the sake of few washington? I think people should have the right to remain silent instead of trying to reply to every such silly poser.



This is a hate filled passage. It is because of these reasons that these people are called out as hatemongers. The poster is trying to create an impression that the members here who write about wanting to live in agraharam would all be living on "others labor" as he puts it. It is these sort of put-downs on members who come and write here that should be condemned by anyone.



This carrying out shit from dry latrines was not unique to agraharams. There are people who are still subjected to do such tasks outside agraharams. Modern agraharams will most certainly not have these kind of dry latrines. The only people who repeatedly like to call NBs "சூத்ரன்/சூத்ரச்சி" in this forum are these BBs themselves.




The fact is all these self-praising types think they are making an reasoned argument while all along these are the people who indulge in wild generalizations and ad-hominem attacks against other members and then they rejoice, wallowing in their own imagined glory, that there was no logical rebuttal to these attacks.

Myself and many Brahmins who all value and respect Brahmin community and share the concern would totally agree with your post and that of Vaagmi ji.

It is human tendency among many humans to hate and blame to the core unreasonably the things and the people/community they despise. Once they take such a stance they would force themselves to innovate different twist and turns to establish justification to their hate and accusations.

The problem here is, many BB's here are those oldies who belong to out dated, bygone societal structure and practices that had some amount of social discrimination, in which lower caste people were at receiving end at the hands of "all" other higher caste community, in some way or other. They just have fixated themselves with such negativity and continuing to express their views with hatred & blame and continuing to show the Brahmins/Brahmin community in a bad picture, whenever there is a slightest chance to exhibit such views and would continue the same for ever. This gives them a total sense of self satisfaction and I would call it as - "Acute Brahmin Bashing Syndrome" (ABBS)

 

[tks]

It takes a broad mind to 'mentally' allow people to live however they want to live provided they do not break any laws.
If someone wants to maintain whatever they believe is their ethnic character let them. If someone wants to live in a place where there is more diversity let them. It is not that one group is 'better' than the other.

Let there be not name calling of group (like BB etc) since it does not achieve anything though it is appropriate in my view to call a message as casteist message or hate filled message (or nonsense message or HS message) if that is what is being projected . The focus is on the post not on the poster.

There is only one member who calls others names, focusing on persons rather than the content of a post .. let the person have fun with that distinction of uncivility.

 

[Nara]

Your anger is blinding you. We all have the right to live where ever we want. That is obvious. That is exactly what I started my reply to Renuka with. As I stated, I wanted to dig a little deeper and examine what is behind this nostalgia. In that context I raised the following question:

having voluntarily left agraharam life for the sake of few Gandhi, why do they now nurse a nostalgic longing for that they voluntarily left behind? I have already posed these questions, but there is no answer, only vengeful ad hominems.​

I have not attacked anybody with this question. So, to charge me with ad hominem is completely baseless. Please note, ad hominem is to counter an argument by attacking the person making the argument. I did not attack any individual in my argument. But your response is filled with it. I am not asking you to stop it, go ahead and drown me with your personal attacks, let everyone see the kind of rebuttal I am getting. An icing may be you will cool down after that.

Also note, I am not finding fault with leaving the agraharam in search of money. திரைகடல் ஓடியும் திரவியம் தேடு is the Tamil motto. I myself did the same, drawn by the greenback. Here, what I am trying to examine is the psychology behind what I think is an irrational yearning for an imagined pristine agraharam that exists only in the imagination of city-dwelling Brahmins who left their respective agraharam a long time back. This is a valid question to ask and examine, there is no personal attack on anybody. If you think there is a personal attack then it is for you to show which person I attacked.

As for NRI, the equivalent situation would be one in which the NRI waxes eloquent about India, how they miss India, and how dreadful it is to live in the U.S. and keeps saying he wants to return to India. Asking such individuals why are they think that way is a valid question, one I wouldn't hesitate to ask under circumstances similar to the one we are in right now with people pining for an imagined idyllic agraharam life. In either case, there is no personal attack on any particular NRI or Agraharam wannabe Brahmin.

This is a hate filled passage. It is because of these reasons that these people are called out as hatemongers. The poster is trying to create an impression that the members here who write about wanting to live in agraharam would all be living on "others labor" as he puts it. It is these sort of put-downs on members who come and write here that should be condemned by anyone.

No, you are twisting what I said and calling it hate. I am creating an impression is in your enraged mind. Anger has taken over rationality.

Remember, I was answering Renuka's question about what was wrong with Agraharam. I gave her a description of the agraharam I grew up in and witnessed first hand. Most of them lived off of the land holding that they didn't work on. It was tenant farmers who cultivated. So, my statement:

However, most residents couldn't care less for the ideals Brahmins like to tout. They were satisfied to live on the labor of others and complain about the குத்தகைக்காரன் (tenant farmer) not giving what they are owed.
​

is correct, and you know it. That is why instead of challenging what I actually said, you manufacture a canard like:

"The poster is trying create an impression that the members here who write about wanting to live in agraharam would all be living on "others labor" as he puts it."
​

This is called straw man fallacy. Instead of criticising what I said, you have created a straw man that I am trying to create the impression that those who want to return to agraharam will live on others labor.

And then you say:

It is these sort of put-downs on members who come and write here that should be condemned by anyone.
​

You invent a canard and that amounts to me resorting to put-downs? You go ahead and make up all the canards you like and throw angry words like "hate" at me, it doesn't bother me a bit.

This carrying out shit from dry latrines was not unique to agraharams. There are people who are still subjected to do such tasks outside agraharams. Modern agraharams will most certainly not have these kind of dry latrines. The only people who repeatedly like to call NBs "சூத்ரன்/சூத்ரச்சி" in this forum are these BBs themselves.

Once again, what I said about agraharam life is true and you are unable to refute it. That makes you angry and you want to just throw mud. Go ahead, have your heart's content. At the end, what I said will still stand unrebutted by you. I was describing the olden-day agraharam honestly for one of the members of this forum who wanted to know. If I got any detail wrong then show me. Yes, dry latrine is not unique to agraharam, but that is not what I said, all I said was the agraharam people are nostalgically reminiscing about had one, and that is an undeniable fact. Yes, people don't use such vile words as சூத்ரன்/சூத்ரச்சி anymore, no thanks to Brahmins. Again, I never said they did even now. But it is a fact that in the agraharams you guys are talking about such words were routinely used. That is a fact, you can't deny that.

The fact is all these self-praising types think they are making an reasoned argument while all along these are the people who indulge in wild generalizations and ad-hominem attacks against other members and then they rejoice, wallowing in their own imagined glory, that there was no logical rebuttal to these attacks.

Don't you realize the above does not challenge what I said in any meaningful way?

Okay, let us see:

[1] you see me as self-praising type, I think I can live with that, no problem.

[2] you think we are not making a reasoned argument -- I would love to have you show me in what way. Tell me what I actually said, not something you imagine such as I was implying or trying to create an impression, etc., stick to what I actually said, and show me why it does not qualify as reasoned argument.

[3] You say, "while all along these are the people who indulge in wild generalizations and ad-hominem attacks against other members". What generalization, be specific and I will either give a response or apologize and withdraw the generalization. What ad hominem attack have I made on other members here? Show me.

[4] You then add "and then they rejoice, wallowing in their own imagined glory, that there was no logical rebuttal to these attacks". You are the one imagining that we are wallowing in our own imagined glory. That perhaps is the source of all the anger I see from you. But one thing is true though, I have not seen a logical rebuttal from any of guys, it is all angry outbursts.

This kind of meaningless back and forth is pointless and a waste of time. I responded because of the increasing intensity of attacks.

 

[mkrishna100]

I agree to a large extent with Mr. Nara's point #69, and Sangom's points in Post #70.
But if someone wants to live in agraharam, it is up to them.
If someone wants to live anywhere and there is supply and demand for such accommodations, they are welcome (as long as it is legal there).

We do live in economic segregated communities. The artificial price of gated community is a clear example of that.

Gated communities in cities in India are basically Modern agraharam's only that they are not based exclusively on caste but "Class of Living" . Human nature loves being "exclusive" and it takes on a different form in Modern economy like the link below shows :
Inside Gate, India’s Good Life; Outside, the Servants’ Slums

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/world/asia/09gated.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[renuka]

Fear and hatred of IC/IR is one of the reasons they want to go back to this agraharam life style, they have said so many times. You being a progeny of an IC, it is bizarre that you find their desire for exclusivity understandable. Do you realize you won't be allowed to even enter the kind of agraharam these people are so nostalgically reminiscing about? You will be considered an avarna, not fit for the four-fold categories who are permitted to live in the கிராமம் (gramam) within their individual exclusive zone.

Dear Nara ji,


I know many people have fear and hatred of any kind..especially fear.

I know a person (NB) who married her own caste guy by arranged marriage and the marriage did not last even 2 months and her parents are looking for a groom again for a 2nd marriage and they asked me to help out look for a guy and I actually did find someone for her (another divorcee)but then the caste came into the picture.

The guys mother is a Dalit and when this family got to know..they were not keen for it and also the guys family were looking for a Dalit or Dalit mixed girl....so they themselves did not want to marry a 100% Non Dalit Non Brahmin.

I was totally surprised that it is the 2nd time round for both and their own caste marriages had not worked out but still they decided to stick to their own caste.

So you see this fear of IC/IR is there with every community.

It is not as if Non Brahmins wont mind marrying outside of their caste.

As a progeny of an IC marriage..I do not identify with any caste and basically value a person for what he or she is and not what he or she is by caste.

But even then I would rather let anyone have the freedom to think and behave the way they want to and also have the freedom to chose their place of residence which could be based on fear or hatred.

I might think differently from most of other people but I feel I do not have the right to impose my views on others..If others want to maintain caste purity that is their right..after all ..dont we all make our own decisions??

Yes..I am aware as an Avarna I wont be allowed in such Agraharams..but that does not really matter to me cos the world has much more space to house any creature of any kind...futher more when I say Agraharam I have in mind a modern housing area where true bonafide Brahmins leading a Vedic lifestyle and Vedic profession reside and not some Brahmin IT professional staying in a colony with others Brahmins in Non Traditional professions.

In a traditional vedic area..I wont have any business to be there too..so the no entry signboard does not really make a difference to me in anyway.

A residential area of any kind is just a piece of land..some might feel attached to it but it is only for a short while we can claim ownership over it..after all even Emperor Bali finally had to offer his head to Vamana and realize that he actually owned nothing.

So if you ask me....let anyone live the way they want..after all how long is a human life to be imposing rules on others?

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I wanted to dig a little deeper and examine what is behind this nostalgia.
I have not attacked anybody with this question. So, to charge me with ad hominem is completely baseless. Please note, ad hominem is to counter an argument by attacking the person making the argument. I did not attack any individual in my argument.
.......
what I am trying to examine is the psychology behind what I think is an irrational yearning for an imagined pristine agraharam that exists only in the imagination of city-dwelling Brahmins who left their respective agraharam a long time back

It is one thing to try and understand the reasons behind some one wanting to move into an agraharam. The easiest way is to ask, but it is totally another thing try to list out imagined reasons behind this nostalgia. It is like putting words into the mouth of others.

The yearning that Nara characterizes as irrational becomes only irrational because he assumes what the city-dwelling brahmins want out of the agraharam. Making such assumptions convenient to oneself only to characterize others as irrational is not reasonable.

Given that there are members here who have expressed their interest in moving to an agraharam type residence, attacking an "agraharam wanabe brahmin" can be construed a personal attack just like how attacking "tenured professors" can be considered a personal attack on known tenured professors of this forum.

No, you are twisting what I said and calling it hate. I am creating an impression is in your enraged mind. Anger has taken over rationality.
Remember, I was answering Renuka's question about what was wrong with Agraharam.
I gave her a description of the agraharam I grew up in and witnessed first hand. Most of them lived off of the land holding that they didn't work on. It was tenant farmers who cultivated. So, my statement:
However, most residents couldn't care less for the ideals Brahmins like to tout. They were satisfied to live on the labor of others and complain about the குத்தகைக்காரன் (tenant farmer) not giving what they are owed
is correct, and you know it. That is why instead of challenging what I actually said, you manufacture a canard.
This is called straw man fallacy. Instead of criticising what I said, you have created a straw man that I am trying to create the impression that those who want to return to agraharam will live on others labor.

Once again, what I said about agraharam life is true and you are unable to refute it. That makes you angry and you want to just throw mud. Go ahead, have your heart's content. At the end, what I said will still stand unrebutted by you. I was describing the olden-day agraharam honestly for one of the members of this forum who wanted to know. If I got any detail wrong then show me. Yes, dry latrine is not unique to agraharam, but that is not what I said, all I said was the agraharam people are nostalgically reminiscing about had one, and that is an undeniable fact.

This is one thing these guys always crow about. Where is the rebuttal? Where is the rebuttal? Anyone can write anything as their personal experience.

"I saw a brahmin jumping a queue. Refute it".

"I saw a brahmin running a red light. Refute it"

How can one's personal experience be refuted? This is a silly question to throw about. Incidentally, these very same people discount the personal experiences of others when it does not suit them. Didn't Nara tell that he does not want to engage another member (Raghy, I think) because that member was said to write everything based on his personal experience?

As far as I can understand, Renuka's question is about what is wrong about brahmins wanting to move into an exclusive agraharam. It is highly unreasonable to believe that when the brahmins talk about moving into an agraharam they are talking about living off others labor, or returning to dry latrines etc but that is exactly what Nara was trying to project when he tried to describe the agraharam that he grew up with, which, knowing his prejudices against brahmins, can only be taken with a bucket of salt! No one need to refute that agraharams then used dry latrines. That dry latrine was not unique to agraharam is an important point but not the main point. The main point is the fact that dry latrine was the norm then whether one lived in an agraharam or not! In any case, that is not the point of rebuttal. The point of rebuttal is the relevance of dry latrines to this argument of people wanting to move into agraharam today. I am calling out the attempts to somehow create an impression among innocent members that brahmins by wanting to return to agraharam are longing for "Shudras" carrying their shit through their back road in the name of analyzing the psycology of those members expressing their interest in agraharams. I object to this and I characterize these attempts as hatemongering against brahmins only.

 

[Nara]

....., but it is totally another thing try to list out imagined reasons behind this nostalgia. It is like putting words into the mouth of others.

No I have not put any words in anyone's mouth. I have not listed out reasons for the nostalgia, except to note a fear and loathing for IC/IR, which is not imagined, this has been expressed by many, including the OP, many many times. So, show me this list of reasons -- imagined as you say - that you are now bringing up. It does not exist, because I have not listed any such thing. Another one of your straw men.

This is just the beginning. Your post is filled with straw men. Let me challenge you at the outset. Cite my own words for this charge of yours and several others you have raised below. Unfortunately, I know you will duck the question as you have done previously. If you are an honest person, if you are someone who deserves the respect of your opponents and not just sycophants -- a courtesy all of us deserve a priori -- then put up. Put up my exact words. Or else, I am sorry to say, you are another angry young man devoid of common decency and undeserving of intellectual exchange.

The yearning that Nara characterizes as irrational becomes only irrational because he assumes what the city-dwelling brahmins want out of the agraharam. Making such assumptions convenient to oneself only to characterize others as irrational is not reasonable.

What have I assumed that the city-dwelling brahmins want out of agraharam? Cite my own words. The fact is, I have not said anything about it. You are really very good at constructing straw men out of thin air, aren't you?

, attacking an "agraharam wanabe brahmin" can be construed a personal attack just like how attacking "tenured professors" can be considered a personal attack on known tenured professors of this forum.

Obfuscation gone berserk. First of all, I never attacked any wannabe agraharam type at all. Show me one such attack. You can't because I never launched such an attack. Your comment about tenure professors is also completely off base, another attempt to obfuscate. If tenured professors are attacked as a group, then, #1. it is not a personal attack on any particular tenured professor, #2. the proper response is to see whether the general attack has any merit, #3. if there is merit, concede the point, and #4. if there is no merit make a case against the attack and show why that was unfounded. Simply attacking the person making an argument against tenured professors as an attack on every particular tenured professor is irrational, illogical. BTW, I am a tenured professor, and I am willing to listen to any criticism leveled against tenured professors and respond appropriately.

Didn't Nara tell that he does not want to engage another member (Raghy, I think) because that member was said to write everything based on his personal experience?

Yes, personal experience by itself is anecdotal, can't be the basis for broad conclusions. What I am stating here are not isolated and unique personal experiences. These personal experiences are corroborated by a broad cross section of the population, and therefore they cannot be dismissed as simply anecdotal. So, I daresay, my experiences are not unique. Senior members of this forum who have lived in agraharams can vouch for this.

• That there was a sewer lane behind the houses is not uncommon.
• That the scavenger must enter this sewer lane and remove fresh stinking shit is not uncommon.
• That nasty words like சூத்ரன் and சூத்ரச்சி are commonly used in agraharams is not unique to the agraharam in which I grew up.
• That most agraharam residents couldn't care less about intellectual inquiry so much so they so disdainfully rejected them as வறட்டு வேதாந்தம், and this is not unique to just my experience
• That most agraharam residents cared only about whether or not the tenant farmers delivering the குத்தகை rent is not unique to the agraharam I was familiar with in my formative years.

Let any of the older members who are familiar with agraharam life challenge me that these were merely isolated incidences not representative of general agraharam life, and I will engage them. If not, please, do not equate this with the personal anecdote objection I raised earlier.

It is highly unreasonable to believe that when the brahmins talk about moving into an agraharam they are talking about living off others labor, or returning to dry latrines etc but that is exactly what Nara was trying to project when he tried to describe the agraharam that he grew up with, which, knowing his prejudices against brahmins, can only be taken with a bucket of salt!

You take it with a ton of salt, it does not matter, because, I never said the brahmins who wanted to move into a modern agraharam would do any such thing, it is just another straw man you are so adept at constructing. Show me in my own words where I said such a thing. My point is only about the nostalgia of an imagined pristine agraharam where everything was idyllic and the desire to go back to that fictional idyllic past. The agraharams of the past in reality was a great place to live for those who could expropriate other people's labor. That is the reality of the past. If you want to build an agraharam free of such nastiness, then good for you, but first you must come clean. If you want to recreate an old-style agrahram, then you can't just tout what you see as the sublime from the past, and never admit to the ugly realities that existed as well. On the other hand, if your intent is to create a neo-agraharam free of all the nastiness that existed in the past, then, that is a different story. That is not what we are arguing about here, the present argument is about the agraharam life style that existed in the past, which was, unarguably, pretty nasty in many ways to many people, not to Brahmin males of course.

The point of rebuttal is the relevance of dry latrines to this argument of people wanting to move into agraharam today.

The point is, the wannabe agraharam types are trying to paint a false picture of the real agraharam that existed in the past. This is the reason for pointing out what an agraharam life entailed, it was not all bhakti, bhajan, vedic discourse and jAti purity. The reality was much more crass, much more asinine. One of those realities was the pleasures of stinking dry toilet, which was nothing but a hole on the floor through which you deposed your shit. Down below was a load of crap, which was removed by some unfortunate தோட்டி regularly. Yes this was also the case with other exclusive neighborhoods meant for upper caste NBs. And, if some of these upper caste NBs reminisce about how great that life was, I will remind them with equal vigor as I am doing so now, what the reality included.

Yes, all this was in the past, not likely to be replicated in a modern agraharam. But it was nevertheless a part of the old agraharam that is eulogized now, you can't deny that. So, don't construct another one of those straw men, I am not saying only brahmin agraharams did it or the modern agraharams will also do it. The excuse that that was the norm then has no credibility when you openly pine for those "good old" days, and wonder whether not going back to it is going astray, and that is what is in contention.

I am calling out the attempts to somehow create an impression among innocent members that brahmins by wanting to return to agraharam are longing for "Shudras" carrying their shit through their back road in the name of analyzing the psycology of those members expressing their interest in agraharams. I object to this and I characterize these attempts as hatemongering against brahmins only.

Yet another straw man. Show me where I said the wannabe agraharam brahmins long for Shudras carrying shit on their head. This is intolerable. I never said any such thing. You, perhaps overcome with anger, are just making things up out of thin air. If you are honest person please cite one shred of evidence for your ugly accusation or do the honorable thing, withdraw this completely baseless malicious aspersion. You have shown your rashness in making wild accusations, and the charge of hate mongering coming from you has as much value as dust in Chennai streets.

 

[Nara]

Gated communities in cities in India are basically Modern agraharam's only that they are not based exclusively on caste but "Class of Living" . Human nature loves being "exclusive" and it takes on a different form in Modern economy like the link below shows :
Inside Gate, India’s Good Life; Outside, the Servants’ Slums

You bring up an important and valid point, IMO. The new Brahmanism is classicism. All this talk about neo agraharam, however vile they are conceptually, they are in essence just idle talk. Nobody is going to establish a neo- vertical- agraharam, some Brahmins may yearn for it, but it is not practical. It ain't happening.

But the class based agraharam is a real threat to a truly democratic liberal society. The haves want to separate themselves into exclusive cocoons, safely separated from the masses. India is following the U.S. model, one in which success is measured by the amount of money you make, not the relationships you build. The gap between the rich and poor has gone past justifiable levels. One single family, the one that owns Walmart, has accumulated more wealth than 40% of fellow Americans. How can that be fair?

This is the kind of dystopia India is heading towards. The proverbial god forbid, if Modi comes to power, this will only be exacerbated.

There is an answer to the insanity of jAti based agrahram type mentality, as the older generation age and die off this insanity will also die off. The class based agraharams represent a new reality that is here to stay with the backing of the state power. Only a true proletarian revolution can cure this malady.

 

[mkrishna100]

But the class based agraharam is a real threat to a truly democratic liberal society.

This is becoming a reality in Indian Metros and as I said Caste is being replaced by Class and whether we like it or not we have to accept this reality .

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Ref. Post #84

For all the charges, Nara's simple answer is "I never said it". Well, I will let the readers be the judge.

For all his claims of being a victim of strawman arguments, let us see one from his post.

The point is, the wannabe agraharam types are trying to paint a false picture of the real agraharam that existed in the past. This is the reason for pointing out what an agraharam life entailed, it was not all bhakti, bhajan, vedic discourse and jAti purity.

If you want to build an agraharam free of such nastiness, then good for you, but first you must come clean.

The wannabe agraharam types have written what they want in an agraharam where they would like to move in. They do not have any nastiness in their minds. Such nastiness are the sole preserve of this member. Why is that the wannabe agraharam brahmins would have to explain away such nastiness and "come clean"? This is the biggest strawman argument here. The preaching member should first practice what he preaches. Alas, it does not come easy when one is hypocritical.

 

[renuka]

Dear Vgane ji,

Now I have a question for you..in your OP you said that you would want to live in an agraharam..then you ask if you are going astray by assuming that others might think that its not a right decision.
Why does the decision of others in this really matter to you?

For example..you see I do not use a Smart Phone cos I love my simple Nokia which allows me to make calls and sms..many people who know this say "what?? OMG?? you are not using a Smart Phone"..Ok now..does their opinion matter to me?? Nope! It does not..what matters is how I feel about it.

I am starting to wonder if you actually wanted to see general reaction of others and then decide for yourself if your decision is right or wrong cos you are not too sure yourself what to do.

May be if you wanted to know opinions of others you could have started a thread asking opinions and pros and cons of an Agrahamic lifestyle in the present era..no doubt any thread with a caste based title become a Clash of the Titans eventually but at least such a title would have been more diplomatic instead of "am I going astray?"

 

[Nara]

Ref. Post #84

For all the charges, Nara's simple answer is "I never said it". Well, I will let the readers be the judge.

For all his claims of being a victim of strawman arguments, let us see one from his post.




The wannabe agraharam types have written what they want in an agraharam where they would like to move in. They do not have any nastiness in their minds. Such nastiness are the sole preserve of this member. Why is that the wannabe agraharam brahmins would have to explain away such nastiness and "come clean"? This is the biggest strawman argument here. The preaching member should first practice what he preaches. Alas, it does not come easy when one is hypocritical.

Stop the shadow boxing and give answer to my questions. Yes, I never said anything you imply I said. I never did. You have been heaping personal crap upon my head and I want you to answer for it, or held accountable for it. Give your response, quote me my words, where and when did I say the things you say I said. I never said any of those things. It is simple enough, it is empirical, just copy paste from one of my previous posts. For the readers to judge impartially, you need to provide evidence.

Just repeating the same things again does not make a reasonable argument. You have not taken my objections seriously. You have not provided any argument at all, just some more ad hominem attacks. You stand exposed, someone overtaken by anger, no substententive argument.

So long my friend, don't be so angry, you may learn a thing or two.....

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Stop the shadow boxing and give answer to my questions.

That was not shadow boxing. I showed the strawman argument in your post which you accuse me of indulging in..

You stand exposed, someone overtaken by anger, no substententive argument.

Can't help it. Hypocrisy contained in your posts could make anyone angry.

BTW, one who mocks others on spelling should be extra careful. And the length of a post does not determine whether an argument is substantive!

 

[vgane]

Dear Vgane ji,

Now I have a question for you..in your OP you said that you would want to live in an agraharam..then you ask if you are going astray by assuming that others might think that its not a right decision.
Why does the decision of others in this really matter to you?

For example..you see I do not use a Smart Phone cos I love my simple Nokia which allows me to make calls and sms..many people who know this say "what?? OMG?? you are not using a Smart Phone"..Ok now..does their opinion matter to me?? Nope! It does not..what matters is how I feel about it.

I am starting to wonder if you actually wanted to see general reaction of others and then decide for yourself if your decision is right or wrong cos you are not too sure yourself what to do.

May be if you wanted to know opinions of others you could have started a thread asking opinions and pros and cons of an Agrahamic lifestyle in the present era..no doubt any thread with a caste based title become a Clash of the Titans eventually but at least such a title would have been more diplomatic instead of "am I going astray?"

Dear Renukaji,

1. I am sure that I want to live in an Agraharam...

2. I cannot live in Agraharam if other Brahmins are not interested. I asked this question to my fellow men to understand their concerns so that through the forum we can find responses which we can debate and finally agree or agree to disagree

2. I mentioned very clearly that I love all castes..I do not have any ill feelings towards any caste..Please see below


[My QUOTE post#1]I do not ill treat any community..I show respect to all communities..I do not belittle any caste…I am living my own life which is on my terms…I send my children to schools that help imbibe the thread of modernity without losing track of traditions and values such as Honesty, Integrity, Discipline and Non Violence! [/QUOTE]

3. The Agraharam that I envision is a modern Agraharam where there will be Vedas, Music, Dance and Drama along with the modern pursuits of scientific research.....Talking about Taliban etc by the BB are just plain diversionary tactics...The focus will be on self discipline & rigor in practice..Everything will be voluntary...I am sure Brahmins will embrace this in droves

 

[Vaagmi]

This is about the conversation between Nara and KB in this thread:

If ad hominem is this: “Please note, ad hominem is to counter an argument by attacking the person making the argument”

1. Post #80 by Nara: “Your anger is blinding you”. Telling the counter party that he is angry and so blind is attacking him and not his views. And again read this - “No, you are twisting what I said and calling it hate. I am creating an impression(is) in your enraged mind. Anger has taken over rationality”. Perfect examples of ad hominem.

2. In the post #80 again this: “That is why instead of challenging what I actually said, you manufacture a canard like……”. It would have been an argument proper if this sentence was worded “you are accusing me of….”. But that was not to be. Ad hominem appears to have been an attractive alternate option picked up.

3. Here is another one from the same post “That perhaps is the source of all the anger I see from you. But one thing is true though, I have not seen a logical rebuttal from any of guys, it is all angry outbursts”. The opponent is angry and so whatever he and his “other guys” say is all angry outbursts while whatever this member says is all cool and well balanced presentation. LOL. A gem of an adhominem this.

4. Read this from post #84: “I have not listed out reasons for the nostalgia, except to note a fear and loathing for IC/IR, which is not imagined, this has been expressed by many, including the OP, many many times” It would have been a normal argument if the wording was this” I have not listed out reasons for the nostalgia, except to note a strong opposition to IC/IR marriages…..”. ‘Loathing’ is a misfit here in the context. Loathe means-feel hatred and disgust for. When an ad hominem fervor takes over a reasoned opposition becomes full of hatred and disgust. But that is what ad hominem is supposed to do. Isn’t it?

5. Post #84: This hits the nail. “Or else, I am sorry to say, you are another angry young man devoid of common decency and undeserving of intellectual exchange”. It would have been a normal argument if it was just “Or else I would consider any intellectual exchange with you not worth the time and effort”. But the opponent has to be branded as an angry (note the anger being brought into the picture again) person devoid of common decency etc., The attempt is to first trash your opponent (not his views), put him down, stomp on him and then dismiss him or expect him to come bleeding again and argue with you.

6. Post # 84 has this: “You, perhaps overcome with anger, are just making things up out of thin air. If you are honest person please cite one shred of evidence for your ugly accusation or do the honorable thing, withdraw this completely baseless malicious aspersion. You have shown your rashness in making wild accusations, and the charge of hate mongering coming from you has as much value as dust in Chennai streets”.

In a decent argument completely devoid of emotions and ad hominems, it would have been enough to say “you perhaps are just making things up out of thin air. Please be honest and show me the evidence for your accusation or else withdraw it”. But the opponent has to be trashed and trivilised first - that he is overcome with anger(with so much of anger repeatedly pointed out, with perhaps smoke coming out of his ears and nostrills!!) and then further to be told that he is rash and whatever he is presenting in all sincerity is all just like the dust in Chennai streets. Please note that it is Chennai streets and not any other metro in the world. The rest of the metros have streets and roads which all can be licked with the tongue by we Indians (perhaps the chauvinist Brahmins especially). Perhaps ad hominem springs out of an arrogant mind at the base.

Because this member has a tendency to always withdraw himself into a shell whenever he comes across strong, reasoned, logically presented counters to his arguments and accuse every one else of put downs, ad hominems, strawman argument etc., I have presented this. I have deliberately kept out his earlier posts in the forum on various issues. I hope he spends sometime understanding his own position. I would happy if he understands that in an argument in a forum like this there are times when people do not distinguish between person and his views and so tend to attack both with words. As long as the attack is to the point, not below the belt, we should move on with the argument. Thanks.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

That is a wonderful post Vaagmiji. Thank you. But now you will be accused of being a sycophant. Oh wait.That has already been done. Another ad hominem attack you can add to your exhaustive list. LOL!

 

[renuka]

Dear Renukaji,

1. I am sure that I want to live in an Agraharam...

2. I cannot live in Agraharam if other Brahmins are not interested. I asked this question to my fellow men to understand their concerns so that through the forum we can find responses which we can debate and finally agree or agree to disagree

2. I mentioned very clearly that I love all castes..I do not have any ill feelings towards any caste..Please see below


[My QUOTE post#1]I do not ill treat any community..I show respect to all communities..I do not belittle any caste…I am living my own life which is on my terms…I send my children to schools that help imbibe the thread of modernity without losing track of traditions and values such as Honesty, Integrity, Discipline and Non Violence!

3. The Agraharam that I envision is a modern Agraharam where there will be Vedas, Music, Dance and Drama along with the modern pursuits of scientific research.....Talking about Taliban etc by the BB are just plain diversionary tactics...The focus will be on self discipline & rigor in practice..Everything will be voluntary...I am sure Brahmins will embrace this in droves[/QUOTE]


Dear Vgane ji,

Thank you very much for your explanation.

I hope your dreams will come true one day.

 

[renuka]

From what I can gather in Forum that many members feel that only Brahmins fear IC/IR marriage.

Let me relate any incident..one known person to the family a Keralite Non lady who is a staunch Vishnu Bhakta and a strict vegetarian (only she is a vegetarian..her husband and children are non veg)

She once called me to ask me "what is an Iyengar?"

I then told her all about Iyengars and the Kalais etc..

Then she told me cos her younger son had got to know an Iyengar girl online and both seemed interested in each other and even the girls father had chatted online with the boy telling him all about their family and tradition etc.


Then I told this lady..in that case if they hit off well it should not be a problem cos since you are a Vaishnava you will surely love an Iyengar DIL further more your elder DIL is a North Indian Brahmin so you can welcome a South Brahmin now into your home.

Then to my surprise this lady said "My elder DIL is a North Indian Brahmin but she is not orthodox...this Iyengar girl is insisting my son become veg etc"

So I told her let them decide what they want.

I have no idea what happened now.

So you see many Non Brahmins also fear IC/IR marriages cos they fear in case their children cant adapt to a new found lifestyle.

 

[sangom]

Dear Renukaji,

1. I am sure that I want to live in an Agraharam...

2. I cannot live in Agraharam if other Brahmins are not interested. I asked this question to my fellow men to understand their concerns so that through the forum we can find responses which we can debate and finally agree or agree to disagree

2. I mentioned very clearly that I love all castes..I do not have any ill feelings towards any caste..Please see below


[My QUOTE post#1]I do not ill treat any community..I show respect to all communities..I do not belittle any caste…I am living my own life which is on my terms…I send my children to schools that help imbibe the thread of modernity without losing track of traditions and values such as Honesty, Integrity, Discipline and Non Violence!

3. The Agraharam that I envision is a modern Agraharam where there will be Vedas, Music, Dance and Drama along with the modern pursuits of scientific research.....Talking about Taliban etc by the BB are just plain diversionary tactics...The focus will be on self discipline & rigor in practice..Everything will be voluntary...I am sure Brahmins will embrace this in droves[/QUOTE]

Dear Shri Gane,

Kindly permit me to intrude and express my views on this topic, once again.

Most brahmins today may not be interested in going back to the agrahaaram way of life. I say this because when I chance to meet any of the tabras still living in agrahaaram house, their interest in saying good bye to that kind of life and to migrate to 'modern flat-style life' even in their own town/locality or in bigger cities, comes out very clearly.

Even in the remaining agrahaarams, I don't find any vaideekans (except the very rare few who became vaideekans in their young age but have of late branched off - besides the vaideekam - to many other activities like jyosyam, vaastu consultancy, catering and marriage contractors, and even owning highly remunerative hotels. The vaideekam today is also not very much in accordance with the grihya sutra rules but are modified to suit the needs of the consumers' likes and dislikes. Hence, the hope of agrahaarams reverberating with Vedas, is an impossible dream, in my view. But there is a lot of other kinds of religious activities - not only in horizontal agrahaarams but in most tabra community concentrations. These are bhajanais, kalyanams of different deities such as Radha, Rukmini, Valli, etc., Bhagavatha/Naaraayaneeya/ Devee Bhaagavatham recitations and Saptaahams, and very lately, the latest product from the MNC called hinduism - Garga Bhaagavatha (?) Sapthaaham which seems to be becoming a craze! Music such as Carnatic Music Kutcheris, dance performances, etc., are only rarely seen unless the community is affluent and have the resources to book halls etc. Generally, agrahaarams stay away from these.

One important aspect is that in existing old agrahaarams the houses have been acquired by people of all communities (and possibly, religions as well) and cooking/usage of NV food is an unavoidable factor now.

I personally dislike the lack of privacy in agrahaaram houses, but this may not be a problem for you or some others.

Taking a total view of all the attendant pluses and minuses, I think it will be not be possible to get back into those days of old agrahaarams, any more.

 

[renuka]

Whether he prays or brays,
One needs a place to stay,
Everyone has his own view,
Whether home is an Agraharam or a Zoo!

 

[prasad1]

This is becoming a reality in Indian Metros and as I said Caste is being replaced by Class and whether we like it or not we have to accept this reality .

It always is, and it is true world over.
We have gated communities in USA, Canada, UK, Belize, Cayman island, etc. Agains it is a class based segregation, but it is legal and accepted.
It is not exclusive to India.
Classes are not birth based, and people can move in and out of a given "class".
So please do not CONFUSE class with Caste.
But if it is legal to have a Caste based community, and people want to live there, there should be no objection. Even the so called modern agraharam can not break any law, so there is no chance of living of the land.

 

[auh]

Born in late 70s, I saw a little bit of agraharam life (at both my grandparents'), and then I could infer from the talks of elders as to how it used to be, and I could say that:

1) The eduppu toilets were a nightmare. Looking back now I dread to think of how it would have been those days.
2) Gossip mongering was a norm those days - emotions ran deep and a lot of blood ran bad. Some even went to the extent of using "pilli - soonyam"...
3) My uncle still owns land, and collecting the dues is still a problem. So I think that was a point that definitely would have been harped on.
4) The "perai" which we used to call had even connecting windows into the other house. The idea of personal space was very limited or non-existent.

But... but... are these the kind of things that were made and agraharam what it was? Certainly not. I also observe that

1) There was, generally, a uniformity in traditional practices - markazhi bhajans etc. Same community living ensures that some practices are continued, such as getting "bommakol bakshanam".
2) Food habits were more or less acceptable to the community living.
3) After land was grabbed from the brahmins, there were plenty of office-goers, as accountants and clerks. Income sources and an adverse politcal scenario pushed them out of their comfort zone and made them go places. It was not a choice.
4) As (little) children we used to roam freely around the agraharam and no one used to bother. Somehow, someone managed to keep an eye on us. The moment we try to stray outside, we would be warned to get inside. A sense of safety and security presented itself in such a setup.
5) Any occasion, willing hands were available to help with the work.


Today, in a cross cultural scenario, I cannot stop the "kottu" than happens if a member of another community passes away, sometimes with a whiff of alcohol and sometimes not.

As mentioned in earlier posts, the whiff of fish or the waft of skin and leather, though revolting, passes through our houses.

At every street corner, a tree stump lies bleakly, foot firmly planted in the soil, to provide support for the butcher's blade as it cuts through mutton and chicken, without partiality.

"kozhai adi sandais" of other communities come with free bonanzas of choicest words that often make the family cringe.

If a family is doing some parayanam, the next door christian may be doing his friday concert, and if it happens to be pentacoastal hall, then woe betide the non christian neighbours.

If muslims are in sufficient numbers, they dictate the terms.

If the house is near to a political bigwig, then some harassment can be expected (this I speak from a friend's personal experience).

Hence, imo, it is only understandable to prefer same community living. But how much of agraharam style would be possible I do not know.

A modern agraharam that is created today could be a success if members willingly participate and it has proximity to medical centres, educatinal institutions and any IT park.

So the niggle can after all be eliminated, but there is always a price to be paid for...

 

[Nara]

That was not shadow boxing. I showed the strawman argument in your post which you accuse me of indulging in..

Still no answer, only wild charges.

Can't help it. Hypocrisy contained in your posts could make anyone angry.

I hope this parting shot made you happy. Enjoy!

BTW, one who mocks others on spelling should be extra careful. And the length of a post does not determine whether an argument is substantive!

One more shot, keep it coming. You have not provided one substantive (have I spelt it correctly this time, good) in all these posts, let alone a persuasive one.