Ancient hinduism VS modern hinduism

[Nara]

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.... Is the modern west a paragon of virtue? The truth would be a big no. But they have devised a clever way of covering their nature with a cloak. It is honorably called pragmatism.

sravna, weren't you also in favor of pragmatism and called it positive hypocrisy or something like that? Yes, but you were advocating that as an antidote to the pragmatism of the west, which is just a clever cloak.

Sravna, most of your criticism about the west is vague and unfounded. Then you go on to imply west is full of selfish people and how a selfish person can be funny? This is the strangest of all, I know a lot of funny people who are quite selfish, Jay Leno for instance was quite emphatically selfish when he pushed aside Coco from his 11:35 spot, and I think Jay is quite funny.

Well well, you probably mean selfish people cannot have fun, and that too is wrong. First and foremost, what is fun for you is probably not going to be fun at all for lot of people. To know that selfish people cannot have fun one must gather up all the selfish people in the world and ascertain whether they can have fun. Would that be a fun experiment?

Anyway, let us look at this from a different perspective, in a way all this so called spirituality is only about being absolutely selfish. The goal of this thing called spirituality is moksham for oneself, a supremely selfish goal. If a religion says you must go and serve the poor, then, some in that religion will take that up in order to achieve their own selfish goal of moksham, not because the poor are suffering. If another religion says you must meditate upon their religious symbol, then they will do that to achieve their own selfish goal of moskham for themselves, not for anyone else.

On the other hand, the nonbeliever, one who rejects any notion of spirituality, life after death, moksham, etc., are motivated to help fellow human beings just for its own sake, not for some reward after they are dead. The only motivation is less suffering in this world, more happiness, peace and love. Contrary to what you say, there are lot of atheists who have done exactly this, i.e. help others without any expectation in return.

So, to be truly not selfish, one must give up this delusion called spritiuality forthwith.

Finally, sravna, if what is meant by ancient hinduism is the religious thoughts of people living in the geographical area of present day South Asia, then atheism, materialsim, etc., were very much part of the mix. They are not western ideas, such rational ideas were as eastern as the delusional spirituality the believers talk about. Blame the west for whatever you like, but not for materialism.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri Yamaka,

The point I am trying to make about today's pragmatism is simple. Pragmatism is about accepting that humans have defects and shape your attitude and behaviour based on that. I am not saying that having defects or admitting them is wrong. What is not right is to not to make to effort to strive to be right and perceive higher values as useless. That is dangerous to the society in the long run because you become nothing but glorified animals.

Dear Sravna:

"What is not right is to not to make to effort to strive to be right and perceive higher values as useless. That is dangerous to the society in the long run because you become nothing but glorified animals."

No, pragmatism does not address whether one has to strive higher values or not... It simply says to bring PRACTICAL logical solutions to the problem(s)... NOT by some ambiguous theory or ideology.

But, again, what VALUES are you talking about?

If it is studying well in school, acquiring skills needed for the society and marketing and upgrading those skills and effectively participating in the construction and uplift of the society, then it is good. Pragmatism of the WEST is not against such efforts.

Again, as Homo sapiens we are already part of the animal kingdom if you believe in Zoology and Human Biological Evolution. I do.

Come out and clearly articulate about what exactly you want from the WEST and Modern India!

Remember, the Belief in Supernatural God and Janma Poorva Karma - the hallmarks of Religiosity or Spirituality of Hinduism -does not allow any effort by individuals to aspire for anything than what's already given and all is PRE-ORDAINED...!!!

The Neo-Theists in this Forum want it both ways: They want the cake and eat it too!!

Cheers.

 

[sangom]

I feel the problem here is not that western materialism or pragmatism or their advanced SET, but a grouse that we Indians with all the glorious notions of a supposed highly developed ancient era have been visibly left by the wayside to pick up factotum jobs for the west, earn the large wages they provide, live in all the luxury which western SET can provide us. To some, this presents a moral dilemma, like how to admit that my father was illiterate, when I am so so educated?

The only solution is to say what the west has given us is "tainted" whereas what our ancients gave to the world was 'pure' and capable of 'elevating the spiritual level' of people.

 

[venKrish]

but a grouse that we Indians with all the glorious notions of a supposed highly developed ancient era have been visibly left by the wayside to pick up factotum jobs for the west

Very true. To some it was a good reason to 'escape' hoping that this would be everlasting and perpetual.

Thankfully, such opportunities were not available to Shri Thyagaraja, Kumarila Bhatta, Narayana Bhattatiri etc.,

 

[C RAVI]

I have not understood the terms 'ancient' and 'modern' in respect of Hinduism.

Shri N.R.Ranganathan,

Same with me. I am unable to see any thing sensible in distinguishing Hinduism as "ancient" and "modern".

There is no distinction as "ancient Hinduism" and "modern Hinduism". Same with any other religion..

It should be alll about the distinction between "ancient Humans" and "modern Humans", all the way, with their perceptions, practices and life style, which is common among the humans from all the Religion.

 

[sangom]

Very true. To some it was a good reason to 'escape' hoping that this would be everlasting and perpetual.

Thankfully, such opportunities were not available to Shri Thyagaraja, Kumarila Bhatta, Narayana Bhattatiri etc.,

Shri venkrish,

Your comments are not clear to me; do you intend to say that opportunities for doing factotum jobs for the west, were not available to Thyagaraja, Kumarila and Narayana Bhattatiri, etc.?

If I take this to be correct, yes, in their days they might not even have known about the entire world as objectively as even a school student knows today; they might have not gone beyond kasi or badrinath at most as well. So in the cocoon of orthodox hinduism, and having been lucky by birth to brahmin (namboodiri) parents, these persons got indoctrinated by the bhakti cult. Thyagaraja's brother was a worldly wise man who tried to mend his ramabhakta brother but without success. I sometimes wonder and sympathise with the wife of Thyagaraja, (just as I sympathise with Chellammal, wife of Subbayya, aka Bharathiar).

The song Eti janmamidi ha is supposed to have been composed by an old Thyagaraja who had been frustrated in his gullible belief that one could see Rama with physical eyes; and giripai nelakonna ramuni was sung when Thyagaraja, at last, dreamed about Rama standing on top of hill and beckoning to him. Soon thereafter Thaygaraja died.

Kumarila was a different type. If he were to be brought alive today, he will most probably disown all hindus. FYI, here is something you may like to know about kumarila:—

"Scholars differ as regards Kumarila's views on a personal God. For example, Manikka Vachakar believed that Kumarila promoted a personal God[SUP][2][/SUP] (Parabrahman), which conflicts with the Mimamsa school. In his varttika Kumarila Bhatta goes to great lengths to argue against the theory of a creator God[SUP][3][/SUP] and held that the actions enjoined in the Veda had definite results without an external interference. Salvation in Mimamsa was said to consist of the attainment of heaven.

Bhatta is also credited with the logical formulation of the Mimamsic belief that the Vedas are unauthored (apaurusheya). In particular his defence against medieval Buddhist position on Vedic rituals, is noteworthy. Some believe that this contributed, to the decline of Buddhism in India[SUP][4][/SUP] although Buddhism continued to proliferate in most of southern and northern India until the late 8th century CE, even after the celebrated Adi Shankara. Records of this are found from Yi Jing's travelogue. His work strongly influenced other schools of Indian philosophy, most notably Advaita Vedanta, especially since Vedanta adopts purva Mimamsa's epistemological arguments almost verbatim, with the exception that while Mimamsa considers the Upanishads to be subservient to the Vedas, the Vedanta school does not think so."(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumārila_Bhaṭṭa)
Narayana Bhattatiri was a vainglorious person who composed Naaraayaneeyam just to get rid of his rheumatic affliction. Thanks to modern day trends of a global village, this book (and the guruvayoor temple) which was not much known outside the Cochin state about 60-70 years ago, has come to occupy the status of a front row scripture. One Maharashtrian sanskrit pandit has even pointed out one grammar mistake in it.

 

[kameshratnam]

Kumarila bhatta was an aspect of sri subramanya and hence he could stand the heat. (sri subramanya amsam)

He argued that i will do my karma as laid down by the scriptures and the vedas and where does arise the question of god? Adi sankara countered him telling him that karma alone cannot fetch moksha and karma has to lead to gnana marga. With karma only can go to many lokams because of the punyam but only when punya and papam are nil that one can attain moksha

 

[venKrish]

Thyagaraja's brother was a worldly wise man who tried to mend his ramabhakta brother but without success.

Worldly wise man? Says who? and his achievements are superior to what Thyagaraja achieved? IMO he is a personification of an Atheists and how having one amidst you can make your life miserable and derail you. On the other hand, Thyagaraja is a remarkable example how when one has clarity, genuinity and purity in his goals, he can achieve them even amidst hurdles from the closest quarters.
And this brother tried to mend him from what?
This is what he said once to his father:
"I am sorry, sir. I do not intend to sell my wares to the highest bidder. I see education as a means to understand the scriptures. Not as a tool to make money. I wish to devote my life to the service of Rama (ramakainkaryam). If you don’t like it, I will leave the house this very instant, though with a heavy heart."
So his brother knew better what is good for Thyagaraja?

What do you mean 'just to get rid of rheumatic affliction'? Do you know how he got it? Do you have an example of this elsewhere?
[QUOTE ]One Maharashtrian sanskrit pandit has even pointed out one grammar mistake in it.
[/QUOTE]
Narayaneeyam is Bhagavatham of 18000 verses condensed into 1034 verses, completely original, done in 100 days and by a person suffering from an incurable disease inherited from his Guru by choice. He did not do it for anybodys consumption, neither did he claim perfection in it. It was an extempo creation. What are you trying to say by be-littling all this and highlighting a mistake.

Atheists can find themselves more purposeful to the world by doing something useful themselves, rather than trying to outscore by belittling others.

GOOOOD BYE !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[venKrish]

Extremely Sorry, I had decided not to enter this forum, but I thought I would be doing a great disservice to a Saint if I leave this un-noticed.

So in the cocoon of orthodox hinduism, and having been lucky by [COLOR=#da7911 !important][COLOR=#da7911 !important]birth[/COLOR][/COLOR] to brahmin (namboodiri) parents, these persons got indoctrinated by the bhakti cult.

This is news to me. As far as I know he was born to a Telugu couple.

I sometimes wonder and sympathise with the wife of Thyagaraja,

Much appreciated, but in the context of the above correction, you want to ascertain if it was misplaced.

cheers

 

[sangom]

Extremely Sorry, I had decided not to enter this forum, but I thought I would be doing a great disservice to a Saint if I leave this un-noticed.

This is news to me. As far as I know he was born to a Telugu couple.

Shri venKrish,

Though you have threatened quitting this Forum, may be you will look to what response your comments received (from) me. So, I give below my comments.

I wrote (typed) "So in the cocoon of orthodox hinduism, and having been lucky by birth to brahmin (namboodiri) parents, these persons got indoctrinated by the bhakti cult." I wrote brahmin as a general (common) factor and gave (namboodiri) to refer specific to Narayana bhattathiri. Thyagaraja was, of course, born to Telugu-speaking brahmin parents.

Much appreciated, but in the context of the above correction, you want to ascertain if it was misplaced.

cheers

You have said here:—

"Worldly wise man? Says who? and his achievements are superior to what Thyagaraja achieved? IMO he is a personification of an Atheists and how having one amidst you can make your life miserable and derail you. On the other hand, Thyagaraja is a remarkable example how when one has clarity, genuinity and purity in his goals, he can achieve them even amidst hurdles from the closest quarters.
And this brother tried to mend him from what?
This is what he said once to his father:
"I am sorry, sir. I do not intend to sell my wares to the highest bidder. I see education as a means to understand the scriptures. Not as a tool to make money. I wish to devote my life to the service of Rama (ramakainkaryam). If you don’t like it, I will leave the house this very instant, though with a heavy heart."
So his brother knew better what is good for Thyagaraja?"

I have also read Thyagaraja's biography and am aware of these. But my sympathies with his wife continue even now and such hagiographic accounts only tend to enhance that feeling. You see, sir, our people have a habit of over-emphasizing some aspect, good or bad in a character, by painting that character in almost caricatured way. In the case of Thyagaraja, we get accounts about him which go to great lengths to exaggerate his devotion to Rama, that the person of Thyagaraja comes out as having been unfit to provide even a nominally average life to his wife. (We should be thankful to those hagiographers for sparing his private life in their effort in this direction; he did not have offsprings I suppose.) I do not have the ability to simply swallow whatever such hagiographers write and I try to look at the reality of a person's life from what little info. we have been provided. In the case of Thyagaraja, is it not possible that despite the quarrels, his worldly-wise brother Jappesa's family might have helped Thyagaraja's family in times of extreme distress? Secondly, when his father Ramabrahmam and his maternal gf, Giriraja Kavi (court-poet in the Thanjavur court) were worldly wise, how can we condone the insult which Thyagaraja heaped on his grandfather himself when he refused to accept the court poet's job and added insult to injury, so to say, by singing "nidhi chaala sukhamaa"? fyi, Madurai Mani Iyer reportedly did not sing this kriti because he felt that when he is in truth singing to earn his livelihood, why should he lie and sing this? To me Madurai Mani Iyer is a greater person than Thyagaraja in this respect.

fyi, one of the three great names which you cite, viz., Kumarila, would not have most probably endorsed this over-bhakti towards a personal deity.

Again, I am aware of the causes of Bhattathiri's (NB) rheumatic affliction. I wrote he was vainglorious because there is another story, equally hagiographical (and probably not supported by facts) about the much higher bhakti of Poonthaanam (P). P was composing and reciting his 'jnaanappaana' in rustic Malayalam and NB happened to hear P reciting vishnu sahasranamam in Guruvayur temple in which P supposedly chanted "padmanaabhO maraprabhu", instead of "padmanaabhoamaraprabhu"; NB made fun of P and on that night, so the story goes, guruvayurappan appeared to NB in his dream and said "I like P's bhakti much more than your vibhakti". It is said that this incident had some effect on NB. Hence my remark that NB was a vainglorious person with not much of bhakti, even as per guruvayurappan.

Last, but not least, in this Forum you are likely to find such unorthodox views. After all can we expect that all people must think in the same way as you do, on most topics? And if we quit forums on such flimsy grounds, one will soon reach a stage that one will have very few forums to participate. So, I will request you to kindly reconsider your decision.

 

[Nara]

Atheists can find themselves more purposeful to the world by doing something useful themselves, rather than trying to outscore by belittling others.

GOOOOD BYE !!!!!!!!!!!

Dear Shri venKrish, Greetings!

To state the obvious, whether to stay or bid adieu is your decision. But before you decide please lend me your ears for just a moment.

Though you find this web site is deceptively named, it does have many forums that cater to the interests of a wide cross section of people who consider themselves Brahmins. Each of these forums have many threads and posts, and from the number of views they get are very popular as well. Except for a few forums like General Discussion and Sociology, most other forums are filled with many threads of the kind you say you were looking for, namely, clarifications or interesting perspectives to share from a believer's perspective. If you wish you can still fulfill your desire by visiting those forums and avoid the ones you find totally objectionable. We all do this, we find certain forums interesting and some others we avoid studiously.

Further, I feel you are taking the comments made about the three iconic figures way too personally. These are public figures and people are free to comment on them. If you find these comments are false or misleading, you may challenge them, which you have done and that is of course your right and all of us welcome it. However, taking too great an offense and demanding any comment about your icons that you find offensive must be banned is not reasonable. Some of us here hold EVR in very high regard, yet we can't and don't demand the vitriolic, degrading and totally untrue comments made against EVR be banned.

Finally, please take a look at the emotional nature of what you wrote that I have quoted above. This kind of outburst is totally uncalled for, what Atheists must do or not do is as much their business as it is the business of Theists to decide what they need to do or not. Please put yourself in our shoes, and imagine, if somebody says something similar about you, how would you feel?

Hope you stay and enjoy what you find suitable in this multifaceted web site.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Extremely Sorry, I had decided not to enter this forum, but I thought I would be doing a great disservice to a Saint if I leave this un-noticed.

This is news to me. As far as I know he was born to a Telugu couple.


Much appreciated, but in the context of the above correction, you want to ascertain if it was misplaced.

cheers

Welcome to the world of real people. As I have found in this site, it is 'whack a mole'. Every time you say anything that would be usually valued in a majority Tamil Brahamin community they will shred each word and shove it back with a page long diatribe, not just once but at least 3 times. So if you have thin skin you will not last longer.

 

[sravna]

Most of the west jalra people seem to be convinced that basically all including the spiritually inclined people will fall for money and its comforts. I would deny this because by nature that is not really where their interests lie. It is more due to the compulsions of the times and the pressure to conform that is getting the better of them. The pressures are so enormous that one needs to be a viswamitra to counter them. But sucuumbing to pressures is also not desirable and there needs to be a way out. I would reiterate the points made in my previous posts that western outside and eastern inside would be the way out. So you are in sync with the external world and also in sync with your inner world.

 

[renuka]

Most of the west jalra people seem to be convinced that basically all including the spiritually inclined people will fall for money and its comforts. I would deny this because by nature that is not really where their interests lie. It is more due to the compulsions of the times and the pressure to conform that is getting the better of them. The pressures are so enormous that one needs to be a viswamitra to counter them. But sucuumbing to pressures is also not desirable and there needs to be a way out. I would reiterate the points made in my previous posts that western outside and eastern inside would be the way out. So you are in sync with the external world and also in sync with your inner world.

Dear Sravna,

I am going to disagree with you here.We really cant be western outside and eastern inside.
You are going to be dubbed as promoting Positive Directional Hypocrisy soon...wait and watch.

You know if we are one thing on the inside and another outside that is not being in tune with Trikarana Suddhi where we need to have coordination of thought,word and deeds.

True Human values are the same for anyone in this world whether he is from East or West.God resides in all directions(Digaambara) but its we humans that are stripped off any values these days.

There is no real pressure to conform to the standard of anyone..I will gave you a simple example..it just happened just now at my clinic.
One patients wife got real mad with me and was shouting at me.

Her hubby had sustained a deep laceration wound and his thumb was almost severed and I arrested the bleeding and wrote a referral to be seen at the nearest hospital cos he needed surgery to reattached his thumb.
His wife was angry with me cos she didnt want me to refer him saying she doesnt want to go to hospital and wanted me to do what ever I can.

They didnt even really mind losing the finger..see it was not money constrain but some people dont like the hassle to go to hospital.

I still referred him and explained to him the risk he faces by not going cos he need to have his thumb reattached.

You know many private docs are scared that when patients get angry and try to do what they can cos they fear patient might think doctor is not good enough to handle the case and even if its not their field they will try to dabble here and there.

I know the patient was angry and she said she will never come back to see me again.I didnt mind all the abuse cos at least he will have his thumb reattached at a hospital.

Those who are so scared for losing future income would have given in to the demands of the patient and done some con job and patient would have ended up losing his thumb

So Sravna..there is really no pressure.
You know I dont like driving expensive cars cos I feel its a waste of money and my dad told me to upgrade my car cos what will people think?
You are a doc and those who earn lesser to you drive better cars.

I dont succumb to material pressure cos I am happy with what I do.
I work hard with sole purpose to give my child a launching pad in future in the sense I will give him what ever I earn and property so he can have the full pleasure of working happily knowing that everything else has been cared for.

Frankly speaking working for the sole purpose of earning money is not all that fun.

Note: When I use the word Human Values I do not mean Theist.Anyone can have Human Values be it atheist or theist cos the intrinsic nature of anyone is Sat Chit Ananda whether he/she realizes it or not.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Dear Sravna,

I am going to disagree with you here.We really cant be western outside and eastern inside.
You are going to be dubbed as promoting Positive Directional Hypocrisy soon...wait and watch.

You know if we are one thing on the inside and another inside that is not being in tune with Trikarana Suddhi where we need to have coordination of thought,word and deeds.

Do you agree that the present times is stripped of human values? Do you agree that ancient India was diametrically opposite in philosophy to present day materialism? How did we get corrupted?

I will explain what I mean by western outside and eastern inside. By western outside I mean you restrict the harm you do to yourself by being too generous and by eastern inside I mean you restrict the harm you do to others by being selfish. You strike a balance. The present day is about striking the right balance as there is a tension between personal values and what goes off as pragmatic. In my opinion that is how you achieve co-ordination between thoughts and deeds.

I dont succumb to material pressure cos I am happy with what I do.
I work hard with sole purpose to give my child a launching pad in future in the sense I will give him what ever I earn and property so he can have the full pleasure of working happily knowing that everything else has been cared for.
.
Good you don't sucuumb to material pressure. You know why. You are being pragmatic to the external world by having the objective of earning money but your real reason is something noble. You have already struck the balance.

Frankly speaking working for the sole purpose of earning money is not all that fun

See you said it yourself:)

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

You said :

Do you agree that the present times is stripped of human values? Do you agree that ancient India was diametrically opposite in philosophy to present day materialism? How did we get corrupted?

I will explain what I mean by western outside and eastern inside. By western outside I mean you restrict the harm you do to yourself by being too generous and by eastern inside I mean you restrict the harm you do to others by being selfish. You strike a balance. The present day is about striking the right balance as there is a tension between personal values and what goes off as pragmatic. In my opinion that is how you achieve co-ordination between thoughts and deeds.

When we mean ancient India are you talking about Yugas before Kaliyuga or Kaliyuga also included?
Becos I wouldnt be able to agree totally that ancients were always better behaved than us now.
There has been killings,unfair and unjust behaviour also in the past things that some of us would never even dream to do now.
There also has been stereotyping before that a son of a priest should be a priest or a son of a farmer must be a farmer.

Human values have always somewhat been on the decline from Yuga to Yuga after all Lord Krishna did say

yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati bhārata
abhyutthānam adharmasya
tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

So I guess may be the numbers of people indulging in Adharma was less before and Avatar just had to annihilate a selected few that too it almost always turned out to be Divine role play actually to instill Human Values in us mere mortals.

If an Avatar were to chose to annihilate all adharmic individuals I guess none of us will be on the surface of the earth cos almost all of us non realized souls have some flaw in us still.

I still disagree with you about having an inner and outer persona.
Thats not striking a balance but rather being tossed about in the scales of existence.
I am not using the word Hypocrite here becos I know your sincere good intentions and chose to use tossed about.
With such thinking one who will be in a constant battle with one's self daily and that will never give us Ekagrata(One pointedness)

Ok coming to how did we get corrupted?..its simple..Uncontrolled desire.
Note I am using the word Uncontrolled here becos desire per se is not wrong provided its not Adharmic.
Desire for a leader to eradicate poverty for fellow country men will bring benefit for society.
Desire to improve female literacy rate will curb infant mortality.
Desire to save lifes will make a Scientist find a cure for HIV/AIDS.
Desire to gain spiritual knowledge will benefit many others who need guidance.

So that way we can say Positive Desire or Negative Desire..but we still have to realize that a desire is still a desire and its still binds and thats why we are advised to just preform action without being attached to the fruits and not to be inactive.

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Dear Sravna,

You said :


When we mean ancient India are you talking about Yugas before Kaliyuga or Kaliyuga also included?
Becos I wouldnt be able to agree totally that ancients were always better behaved than us now.
There has been killings,unfair and unjust behaviour also in the past things that some of us would never even dream to do now.
There also has been stereotyping before that a son of a priest should be a priest or a son of a farmer must be a farmer.

Human values have always somewhat been on the decline from Yuga to Yuga after all Lord Krishna did say

yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati bhārata
abhyutthānam adharmasya
tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

So I guess may be the numbers of people indulging in Adharma was less before and Avatar just had to annihilate a selected few that too it almost always turned out to be Divine role play actually to instill Human Values in us mere mortals.

If an Avatar were to chose to annihilate all adharmic individuals I guess none of us will be on the surface of the earth cos almost all of us non realized souls have some flaw in us still.

Think of a period in India even a generation back. Did people at that time show desire for money with the same intensity and as blatantly as the present generation does. So even a generation back there were some apprehensions about openly declaring one's desire for wealth as a sole motive especially when it went against certain values. It is not difficult to imagine that India, at the height of its spiritual glory, would have followed a certain discipline in protecting values. Sure there would still have been some injustice in one way or the other but my point is the situation now is it is universal, deep rooted and worst of all open.

I still disagree with you about having an inner and outer persona.
Thats not striking a balance but rather being tossed about in the scales of existence.
I am not using the word Hypocrite here becos I know your sincere good intentions and chose to use tossed about.
With such thinking one who will be in a constant battle with one's self daily and that will never give us Ekagrata(One pointedness)

dear renuka, it is not a battle. The battle is only when you are acting against your conscience. As long as your intentions are good, this problem does not arise. Like you don't feel bad about earning money when you intend to make use of it for a good purpose.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sravna,

You wrote :

dear renuka, it is not a battle. The battle is only when you are acting against your conscience. As long as your intentions are good, this problem does not arise. Like you don't feel bad about earning money when you intend to make use of it for a good purpose.

I agree Sravna with what you say but what I am trying to say is we can achieve this by being single minded and not relying on having an inner persona and an outer persona.
We have to definite how we want to be and have an aim(within Dharmic means)

 

[venKrish]

Shri venKrish,

Though you have threatened quitting this Forum, may be you will look to what response your comments received (from) me. So, I give below my comments.

Me threatening? I am just an Amateur looking for some food, but found only pebbles. Thought all the food is gone. In hunger I screamed. thats all

I have also read Thyagaraja's biography and am aware of these.

I am still looking for answers from you...Especially, how and why Thyagaraja's brother is considered a wordly-wise. Great people say, only you know. please provide.

But my sympathies with his wife continue even now and such hagiographic accounts only tend to enhance that feeling.

.
chuu..chuu..chuu.. Wow!! I really appreciate the purity and nobility in your gestures. None can stand up to you I think.
But I am curious, if it just stayed as a lip service or went beyond that. Something around the world-wise brotherly types??? No??

that the person of Thyagaraja comes out as having been unfit to provide even a nominally average life to his wife.

Sir, you are revealing some great secrets. I am sure you would have got it from right and moral source, not from the ones who are jealous or envious. You have no such friends I know.I guess Thyagaraja's wife must have confided with someone like you.
YET,
I believe there were so many naysayers around even at that time and many whose heart break at seeing others in misery. I am unable to understand why no one came to her help. So many sympathisers, yet none to offer real help, only offer accounts? - perhaps some of the fore-fathers of present day noble minds (Ys,Bs,Ss, etc., you know what I mean) could have come forward to help? did they? why not? It is hard to think they were also in a cocoon, unaware of Thyagaraja or even his wife? Or did they deliberately leave it at that, so you can make a story of it centuries later?

You also say worldy-wise (something you refuse to explain how/why) brother might have helped.
But why still Thyagaraja's wife had less than a nominally average life? and their life was in extreme distress?
why? Worldy-wise brother could afford just once in a while something? Or he really didnt help much?
Or, is it that Thyagaraja's wife had a nominally average life, but just that Thyagaraja was not the one to or who could provide it?
Please Sir, throw more light based on your extensive learning and knowledge?

To me Madurai Mani Iyer is a greater person than Thyagaraja in this respect.

yes, to me also both Thyagaraja and Madurai Mani are great people. Madurai Mani got to be greater because he sang one less great song of Thyagaraja? You become greater by singing a not so great mans song. You are super Sir. Wa Wah !!!

Sir, I want to go over each of your very nice comment and offer mine.
But I thought of presenting the following (of course found elsewhere),
which I am sure for someone like you who is well informed and knowledgeable it wouldnt be something new, but nevertheless here it is.

One who frequently engages in excessive complaining, negative banter and/or a genuinely poor and downbeat attitude. Naysayers are distinguished by their tendency to consistently view the glass half empty, make frequent one-way trips to negative town, and constantly emphasize the worst of a situation. They have the capacity to rant and whine for hours on end about the most insignificant inconveniences. They tend to travel solo, but have the keen ability to spread their pessimistic attitude to a group of unsuspecting bystanders and coerce others to employ their
mindset.

And if we quit forums on such flimsy grounds, one will soon reach a stage that one will have very few forums to participate.

yes, yes, for your reach it should look flimsy, but for some thin-skinned it is just principles sir. Reading your versions of tasteless, largely hostile,antagonic humdrum causes boredom. Besides, out here one can at best just be with/like you. My aspirations are even higher sir. My goals are important. Forums are just a means.For me one good forum is enough for now. I however thank you for the alert/caution.

Sir, your friends around here say I am an Amateur, Closed minded etc., so I hope you will not mind and take it with an open mind.

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

You wrote :

I agree Sravna with what you say but what I am trying to say is we can achieve this by being single minded and not relying on having an inner persona and an outer persona.
We have to definite how we want to be and have an aim(within Dharmic means)

Dear Renuka,

The outer persona is not real. It is just a projection of the real persona. A consummate inner persona can vary the projections without itself getting affected.

 

[sangom]

Kumarila bhatta was an aspect of sri subramanya and hence he could stand the heat. (sri subramanya amsam)

Shri kameshratnam,

I think you are oversimplifying for the sake of countering (my views). Simply because the word kumar comes in kumarila, I don't think we can immediately go into a flight of fancy and declare "kumarila was an amSam of subrahmanya and hence he could stand the heat". I presume you may be referring to the heat of the vedic yagas, not sure. But then generations of priests (hotas, ritwiks, etc.) spent their entire life performing various sacrifices; it was held/believed that the more one did yagas, the more merit that person would earn, and which would help him to get to the highest ranks in the pitruloka. Hence, "standing the heat" of vedic yagas was a commonplace thing for most brahmins of the poorvameemaamsa age. Can we therefore conclude that all those brahmins must have been "aspects" of subramanya.

I have not so far heard any reference anywhere else about kumarila being an aspect or amsam of subramanya; will you kindly give references to support your view?

He argued that i will do my karma as laid down by the scriptures and the vedas and where does arise the question of god? Adi sankara countered him telling him that karma alone cannot fetch moksha and karma has to lead to gnana marga. With karma only can go to many lokams because of the punyam but only when punya and papam are nil that one can attain moksha

You seem to have some special source of information, not available generally. So far what I have been reading in books is that Sankara was unable to make much headway in popularising his philosophy among the city-dwelling people who were confirmed buddhists, and so Sankara started spreading his views among villagers and that too sannyasins. He heard of Kumarila's great scholarship and ability in logical reasoning in spreading the poorvameemaamsa. It is even said that Sankara requested Kumarila to write a vaarttika (exegesis) on his brahma sutra bhashya, but by then kumarila had entered the fire for committing suicide and he directed Sankara to his (Kumarila's) ablest disciple Viswarupa. Scholars differ on whether this Viswarupa was Mandana misra or not.

Anyway, I have not read anywhere about a debate between kumarila and Sankara. As you may be well aware, both kumarila and sankara had a common aim, viz., extinction of buddhism and revival of the vedic teachings. Because of this, there does not seem to be their fighting with each other, at least to me, given their intelligence and worldly wisdom. Even if we agree, for argument's sake, that there was such a debate - as posited in many of the hagiographic biographies of Sankara - the concept of Iswara had become an inseparable component of the advaita thinking, even during Sankara's times whereas poorvameemaamsa did not recognize any such personal god but only the vedic gods or devatas. Hence imho 'god' does come between sankara and kumarila, because, at the end of the day advaita without Iswara will be impractical and will be like the sunyavaada of maadhyamika buddhists.

The above are my views. I request you to enlighten further.

 

[renuka]

Dear Renuka,

The outer persona is not real. It is just a projection of the real persona. A consummate inner persona can vary the projections without itself getting affected.

Dear Sravna,

This sounds like Maya at a microcosmic scale but here we are voluntarily projection a dual persona and fully aware of it..unlike Maya at a macrocosmic scale where it we are not really aware of its deluding function.

I feel Truth is Truth..Truth cant have an inner persona and outer persona..what say you?

 

[sravna]

Dear Sravna,

This sounds like Maya at a microcosmic scale but here we are voluntarily projection a dual persona and fully aware of it..unlike Maya at a macrocosmic scale where it we are not really aware of its deluding function.

I feel Truth is Truth..Truth cant have an inner persona and outer persona..what say you?

Dear Renuka,

Note my words. I said a consummate inner persona can vary projections. The less consummate you are the more real your projection seems or more deluded you are. After all body is a microcosm of the universe, isn't it?

 

[sravna]

Dear Renuka,

Also for an unrealized person his thoughts sound real I would call thoughts as also a part of outer persona. I would call the voice of conscience as reflecting the true inner persona. For those whose conscience is subjugated or becomes veiled, their thoughts seem real. A truly realized person perfectly reflects in his body and mind the material cosmos and the cosmic soul.His mind which is one with the cosmic soul can project the outer persona the way it desires,especially with a good purpose in mind. We see this especially in the krishna avatar of vishnu where the lord resorts to mind games to win over the opponents. Mind games are especially necessary if the objective of the avatar is to cleanse the corrupt minds. The kali yuga is tailor made for such an avatar to appear.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Renuka,

Also for an unrealized person his thoughts sound real I would call thoughts as also a part of outer persona. I would call the voice of conscience as reflecting the true inner persona. For those whose conscience is subjugated or becomes veiled, their thoughts seem real. A truly realized person perfectly reflects in his body and mind the material cosmos and the cosmic soul.His mind which is one with the cosmic soul can project the outer persona the way it desires,especially with a good purpose in mind. We see this especially in the krishna avatar of vishnu where the lord resorts to mind games to win over the opponents. Mind games are especially necessary if the objective of the avatar is to cleanse the corrupt minds. The kali yuga is tailor made for such an avatar to appear.

Very well said Shri Sravna. All about inner persona with which it projects the outer persona to mange the affairs, for the better.

I believe in same and I agree fully with your views that you have explained precisely.


IMO, having no clarity of this understanding many tend to arrive at negative conclusions about some God/Goddess/Avatars etc. As well about some Demons as God Bakthas but being immoral some ways...