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Ancient hinduism VS modern hinduism

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Dear Renuka,

Also for an unrealized person his thoughts sound real I would call thoughts as also a part of outer persona. I would call the voice of conscience as reflecting the true inner persona. For those whose conscience is subjugated or becomes veiled, their thoughts seem real. A truly realized person perfectly reflects in his body and mind the material cosmos and the cosmic soul.His mind which is one with the cosmic soul can project the outer persona the way it desires,especially with a good purpose in mind. We see this especially in the krishna avatar of vishnu where the lord resorts to mind games to win over the opponents. Mind games are especially necessary if the objective of the avatar is to cleanse the corrupt minds. The kali yuga is tailor made for such an avatar to appear.

Dear Sravna:

Here is the alternate view on this from an Atheist, but a Neurobiologist -

1. Yes, we have subconscious and conscious mind.. Sigmund Freud says the "Id" of a personality is in the subconscious mind and the "ego" is in the conscious mind of the same mountain of personality or the "I" ness. It is a property of the amplitude of the action potential in the neuronal pathway connecting the specialized sensory neurons in the pre-frontal cortex of the brain.

2. The voice of Conscience is always there in ALL human beings whether one believes in a God or a Religion or NOT. This property that Homo sapiens acquired along the way due to Biological Evolution... not thru any God or Religion.

3. There is nothing like the so-called Cosmic Soul..this is some verbal and mental bombast of followers of God and Religion... this has no scientific basis of any kind.

4. The story of Krishna and Vishnu are the brain child of the Author Great Vyasa & Co, completely a FICTION.

5. Corrupt minds can be with the Believers and Non-Believers..it depends on their inner personality... Gods just can't change it, no matter what!

Think of it...

:)
 
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Dear Shri Yamaka,

People are generally moved by something that is tangible. Hence the overwhelming success of Science and Technology. But the extent of mental discipline one needs to acquire to be spiritual and to see tangible results is enormous. It also is a personal effort unlike in SET where you can enjoy the work of others. So in these aspects SET scores over spirituality.

But I am talking on my personal experience now. I am a strong believer in Hindu philosophy and its utility. I am a strong believer in vedangas like astrology too.I have myself used the gayatri mantra to full benefit to cure health problems. The power of the mantra is immense and it definitely works if you have faith in it. So the catch here is faith. Second factor is basically how spiritual you are. The more genuinely spiritually inclined you are the better it works.

I would say the mantra can cure problems that SET would give up 10 out of 10 times. I am not putting down SET. But the knowledge gained by Science is nowhere near in potency to that of our ancestors.
 
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Thiru.Yamaha,
I refer to your post no.51.
How nice it would be if you had started the point mentioned in item no.4 with the prefix
IMO or IMHO.
After all You are only an atheist cum Neurobiologist,but not an authority on all matters.I do not know whether your work as a neurobiologist has been acknowledged,
recognised and appreciated.Some members of this Forum(including self) keenly look forward to your accomplishments as a neurobiologist and you may spare a little time to enlighten all of us.
Mr.Harbind Khurana nobel laureate Scientist recently passed away on 9th,november,2011.Except a newspaper in Chandigargh,none of the Newspapers in India(I am open to correction as I do not read all the Newspapers published in India)found it worth to publish the news of the death of an illustrious son(OCI) of India.Whether Lord Krishna or Lord Vishnu are real persons or creations of learned Scholar Vyasa,the fact remains that all the three have become immortal figures for followers of Hindu Faith.

Please think over it.
 
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In some of the books, I had read that the word Hindu has originated from the
river Indus and the people who lived around that river were known as Hindus.
The beliefs of Hindu religious thoughts, it is said, cannot just be enveloped and are
far wide and varied; chief because saints and some writers have expounded i.e. explained or
made something clear by giving details of certain theories at great length.
It is said that the same may not be concluded in a nutshell.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
Thiru.Yamaha,
I refer to your post no.51.
How nice it would be if you had started the point mentioned in item no.4 with the prefix
IMO or IMHO.
After all You are only an atheist cum Neurobiologist,but not an authority on all matters.I do not know whether your work as a neurobiologist has been acknowledged,
recognised and appreciated.Some members of this Forum(including self) keenly look forward to your accomplishments as a neurobiologist and you may spare a little time to enlighten all of us.
Mr.Harbind Khurana nobel laureate Scientist recently passed away on 9th,november,2011.Except a newspaper in Chandigargh,none of the Newspapers in India(I am open to correction as I do not read all the Newspapers published in India)found it worth to publish the news of the death of an illustrious son(OCI) of India.Whether Lord Krishna or Lord Vishnu are real persons or creations of learned Scholar Vyasa,the fact remains that all the three have become immortal figures for followers of Hindu Faith.

Please think over it.

Dear Krish Sir:

1. What all I write here is my opinion.. I need not write often IMO or IMHO.

2. How successful I am is for my peers to evaluate, not for others.. I am a very successful Principal Investigator, a Senior Scientist and a Research Professor - all I earned because of my relentless pursuit of excellence by sheer hard work... not believing in any Super-Natural Agent or Janma Poorva Karma or some other Superstition others would love to immersed in.

Unfortunately, none of you and your friends would understand if I start writing about my research work. It requires a different infrastructure in terms of knowledge and understanding.

3. Yes, Dr. Khorana died recently at the age of 85 (?). What about it? People die everyday. Great Smokin' Joe Frazier died at the age of 65 (?) from liver cancer. He was a very strong World Boxing Champion even knocking out the Mightiest of ALL Muhammed Ali - the Champ - the Civil Right Icon.. people thought Joe was indestructible.

But, How does this fit in your critique of my post here?

4. Lord Krishna and Mahabharata are the brain child of great Vyasa - A FICTIONAL Mythology. You may believe in so many things.. write about it.. you have the Civil Right to believe in anything...

Ask your God Krishna to instruct me to believe in HIM! LOL.

Let me write about what I want to write...

Where's the problem?

:)
 
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Dear Shri Yamaka,

I think what Shri.B.K sir means is to be more sensitive to others feelings. With freedom comes responsibility otherwise it is very dangerous. Hope you appreciate Shri B.K's point.
 
Dear Sravna: My response in bold letters below -

Dear Shri Yamaka,

People are generally moved by something that is tangible. Hence the overwhelming success of Science and Technology. But the extent of mental discipline one needs to acquire to be spiritual and to see tangible results is enormous. It also is a personal effort unlike in SET where you can enjoy the work of others. So in these aspects SET scores over spirituality.

In my mind, Spirituality = Religiosity = A Belief in Super-Natural Agent. Janma Poorva Karma = Superstitions. Our youngsters are walking away from this Belief.. they favor SET for the tangible benefits and logical interpretation of phenomena around us.

But I am talking on my personal experience now. I am a strong believer in Hindu philosophy and its utility. I am a strong believer in vedangas like astrology too.I have myself used the gayatri mantra to full benefit to cure health problems. The power of the mantra is immense and it definitely works if you have faith in it. So the catch here is faith. Second factor is basically how spiritual you are. The more genuinely spiritually inclined you are the better it works.

Maybe, it works for you. But for most others, astrology, gayatri mantra etc. are simple SUPERSTITIONS. Modernity argues against it... Superstitious people will be left behind... the train of modern thinking is leaving the station.. please jump on it.. Lest you will be left behind for ever!

I would say the mantra can cure problems that SET would give up 10 out of 10 times. I am not putting down SET. But the knowledge gained by Science is nowhere near in potency to that of our ancestors.

A simple Superstition... please call the doctor if you get a chest pain or head ache... Don't say some mantra and get your life ruined for ever.

:)
 
Dear Shri Yamaka,

I think what Shri.B.K sir means is to be more sensitive to others feelings. With freedom comes responsibility otherwise it is very dangerous. Hope you appreciate Shri B.K's point.

Dear Sravana:

I know what exactly what Krish Sir wants me to do... to follow some Superstition and believe in some God!

I don't intend to be insensitive to others... Others are insensitive to my POV... LOL.

:)
 
.... The power of the mantra is immense and it definitely works if you have faith in it. So the catch here is faith.
sravna, this catch is what makes the power of mantras suspect, or, IMO bogus . With this catch in place, anything can be claimed. This is not harmless superstition, this is what all the godmen and babas rely on to cheat the gullible public. If one does not delude himself enough to acknowledge the miracles they perform, then his/her faith is simply not up to par -- neatly self-contained logic, heads they win, tails we loose.

Second factor is basically how spiritual you are. The more genuinely spiritually inclined you are the better it works.
Well, same as above, it it does not work it is because we are not genuinely spiritual!!!

I would say the mantra can cure problems that SET would give up 10 out of 10 times. I am not putting down SET. But the knowledge gained by Science is nowhere near in potency to that of our ancestors.
Please provide rational evidence for claiming the above about your ancestors? Stories from ithihasa/puranas do not count.

Anyway, if mantras "can cure problems that SET would give up 10 out of 10 times", then you have a moral obligation to bring it out, demonstrate it and make it widely accepted. That would be most moral thing to do, which is what the scientists would do if they found a sure enough cure for anything, as they did for even ED -- is this what Gaddafi has to thank for his prodigious exploits K cites in that other thread about him?

Cheers!
 
Dear Thiru.Yamaha,
I have no intention or inclination to make You a believer with all superstitions.
My only request is to express your views/opinions in such a manner that may not hurt the feelings of others.
I can find tinge of anger in your post no.55 since I raised a querry about your profession.I am not keen to know about your achievements
in your profession.




There may be a number of Scientists researching in this universe,but lay man like me come to know about a particular
Scientist once they get recognition of their work internationally.
I mentioned the name of late Dr.Khurana for this specific reason that though he was known as a Nobel laureate,he was forgotten soon
while in the case of Lord Krishna, Lord Vishnu,and Scholar Vyasa they will be remembered for ever by followers of Hindu faith.
I remember to have read an essay in my college days 'Rules on the Road' by A.G.Gardener.Freedom has got certain responsibilities.
 
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Dear Thiru.Yamaha,
I have no intention or inclination to make You a believer with all superstitions.
My only request is to express your views/opinions in such a manner that may not hurt the feelings of others.
I can find tinge of anger in your post no.55 since I raised a querry about your profession.I am not keen to know about your achievements
in your profession.




There may be a number of Scientists researching in this universe,but lay man like me come to know about a particular
Scientist once they get recognition of their work internationally.
I mentioned the name of late Dr.Khurana for this specific reason that though he was known as a Nobel laureate,he was forgotten soon
while in the case of Lord Krishna, Lord Vishnu,and Scholar Vyasa they will be remembered for ever by followers of Hindu faith.
I remember to have read an essay in my college days 'Rules on the Road' by A.G.Gardener.Freedom has got certain responsibilities.

Dear Krish Sir:

I don't think people ever forgot what Dr. Khorana did to Molecular Biology or Biochemistry.. his contribution will stay in the Annals of Scientific History forever. In fact, he was one of the pioneers who chemically synthesized small pieces of RNA and DNA, the genetic materials.

His achievement paved the way for complete synthesis of very large DNA materials of known properties, a philosophical blow to the Theists!

I have personally met and talked to him about his past work and the then current work on vision and rhodopsin molecules.

Coming back to Lord Krishna and Mahabharata - our youngsters read it today as some Harry Potter Stories of Fancy, Illusion and Imagination.... slowly in a next few generation even this will come to a grinding halt...

Just look around you here in the US: How many people believe truly in the Old or New Testament?

Maybe, hardly 20%... some 100 years ago, nearly 95% believed in it.

The reason is Rationale Thinking and the powerful logic of Science, Engineering and Technology..

The days of Theism is over.... the writing is on the wall, if you can see it.

Please write about WHY our youngsters should believe what Great Vyasa or Valmiki wrote about 2000 years ago?

If you can give a compelling rationale for our Scientifically poised India's Youth.

Cheers.
 
Please write about WHY our youngsters should believe what Great Vyasa or Valmiki wrote about 2000 years ago?

If you can give a compelling rationale for our Scientifically poised India's Youth.

Cheers.

Yams, for while let me buy what Valmiki wrote is a mythology. look at the rationale behind mythology, than discounting it as a plain story telling of ancient man.
sir edward brunett tylor, and english anthropologist, defines myth, as an attempt at a literal explanation for natural phenomena. ie, they experienced god, but never owned temples/scripting/painting or other communication method, and hence could not explain back to others. so they used the tool of mythology to explain the experience of god, to others.

so discounting the scriptures as just a novel is not the right thing. the only way for you is, go back and fight it out with your arguments against god.
 
sravna, this catch is what makes the power of mantras suspect, or, IMO bogus . With this catch in place, anything can be claimed. This is not harmless superstition, this is what all the godmen and babas rely on to cheat the gullible public. If one does not delude himself enough to acknowledge the miracles they perform, then his/her faith is simply not up to par -- neatly self-contained logic, heads they win, tails we loose.

Well, same as above, it it does not work it is because we are not genuinely spiritual!!!

Please provide rational evidence for claiming the above about your ancestors? Stories from ithihasa/puranas do not count.

Anyway, if mantras "can cure problems that SET would give up 10 out of 10 times", then you have a moral obligation to bring it out, demonstrate it and make it widely accepted. That would be most moral thing to do, which is what the scientists would do if they found a sure enough cure for anything, as they did for even ED -- is this what Gaddafi has to thank for his prodigious exploits K cites in that other thread about him?

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

I just gave the conditions for the mantra to work. Nobody is preventing you from developing the faith or being spiritual. It definitely works on those two conditions. Because it works for me. For none of my health problems I consult a doctor. I have helped others too. As you want it , it is demonstrable each and every time. Would that be enough proof for the potency of the mantra?
 
sir edward brunett tylor, and english anthropologist, defines myth, as an attempt at a literal explanation for natural phenomena. ie, they experienced god, but never owned temples/scripting/painting or other communication method, and hence could not explain back to others. so they used the tool of mythology to explain the experience of god, to others.

An angel quoting the devil's follower!! Since when did western scholars become acceptable authorities for our theists' group? The very fact that the 'veLLaikkaaran' says so, means mythology is anything but the opposite of what he says, I thought!
 
Reference: Yamaka in post #61:

Please write about WHY our youngsters should believe what Great Vyasa or Valmiki wrote about 2000 years ago? If you can give a compelling rationale for our Scientifically poised India's Youth.

For the same reasons for which we still believe in Cartesian and Newtonian theories though every student of science knows that they do not hold good any more and that they do not satisfactorily explain all the situations that we come across. They appear to be irrational at many situations.
 
Dear Shri Yamaka,

People are generally moved by something that is tangible. Hence the overwhelming success of Science and Technology. But the extent of mental discipline one needs to acquire to be spiritual and to see tangible results is enormous. It also is a personal effort unlike in SET where you can enjoy the work of others. So in these aspects SET scores over spirituality.

But I am talking on my personal experience now. I am a strong believer in Hindu philosophy and its utility. I am a strong believer in vedangas like astrology too.I have myself used the gayatri mantra to full benefit to cure health problems. The power of the mantra is immense and it definitely works if you have faith in it. So the catch here is faith. Second factor is basically how spiritual you are. The more genuinely spiritually inclined you are the better it works.

I would say the mantra can cure problems that SET would give up 10 out of 10 times. I am not putting down SET. But the knowledge gained by Science is nowhere near in potency to that of our ancestors.

It may be very possible that you had some somatoform disorder.
One of my lady colleagues, whose husband got entangled in some foreign exchange fraud, and was undergoing trauma due to it, used to say that she used to suffer from sleeplessness due to the worry and on some swami's advice, started chanting gaayatree. But nothing happened until her husband came out of prison after the sentenced period and then sadly, he got paralysed. I did not ask her whether she had again resorted to gaayatree.
 
It may be very possible that you had some somatoform disorder.
One of my lady colleagues, whose husband got entangled in some foreign exchange fraud, and was undergoing trauma due to it, used to say that she used to suffer from sleeplessness due to the worry and on some swami's advice, started chanting gaayatree. But nothing happened until her husband came out of prison after the sentenced period and then sadly, he got paralysed. I did not ask her whether she had again resorted to gaayatree.

Please Shri. Sangom, can't you be serious? Now that your "show me evidence" weapon is neutralized, you are resorting to other tactics. So steeped are we in materialistic illusion we consider the other side as affected by illusion.
 
One of my lady colleagues, whose husband got entangled in some foreign exchange fraud, and was undergoing trauma due to it, used to say that she used to suffer from sleeplessness due to the worry and on some swami's advice, started chanting gaayatree. But nothing happened until her husband came out of prison after the sentenced period and then sadly, he got paralysed. I did not ask her whether she had again resorted to gaayatree.

Sir, are you trying to prove that your lady colleague was given to chant gaayatree by a swamiji to help her come out of trauma due to worries, for the reason that the power of gaayatree mantra would change the impacts on her hubby's karma (of the past and the present) to remain scott free from the scratch AND that still the "Mantraa didn't work", by which, it is evident that "Mantraas are bogus"?
 
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<prasadji, next time please be sensitive about what is being posted. we do not see one another in person, so what is posted online can be understood in more than one way than intended.>
 
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Sir, are you trying to prove that your lady colleague was given to chant gaayatree by a swamiji to help her come out of trauma due to worries, for the reason that the power of gaayatree mantra would change the impacts on her hubby's karma (of the past and the present) to remain scott free from the scratch AND that still the "Mantraa didn't work", by which, it is evident that "Mantraas are bogus"?

Ravi,

I cannot provide such intricate details. What she said, I reproduced. To my mind, she was deeply affected by her husband's trouble, suffered sleeplessness and some swamiji advised her to chant gaayatree. That is all.

imho, mantras will work for people who suffer from psychosomatic illnesses, if the affected persons themselves can chant the mantra. Beyond that for an ordinary person, minding his/her life as it is today, mantras will not be able to bring anything more than the mental satisfaction of having recited it. மந்திரத்தால் மாங்காய் வரவழைக்க முடியுமோ?
 
This story is similar to one told by Ms. Backmann the republican presidential contender to prove her point. In politics it is convenient to invent a story. But it does not look good for you to do that. (ye aap ko shobha nahi deti hai).
Michele Bachmann's HPV Vaccine Safety and 'Retardation' Comments Misleading, Doctors Say - ABC News

Shri Prasad,

I have seen here many of your tactics, even during this short period. But you are bringing in a new weapon saying "you are lying", of course somewhat indirectly. I can say that this is so because பாம்பின் கால் பாம்புக்குத்தான் தெரியும், but I do not opt for that. I can say upon my word of honour that "inventing stories" is not my habit.

I report this post to Shri Praveen and will participate in future only if such tactics are banned.
 
.... மந்திரத்தால் மாங்காய் வரவழைக்க முடியுமோ?
Sangom sir, this is why they have two convenient conditions, (i) faith and (ii) sufficiently spiritual. But this மாங்காய் test is a good one, I would like to see sravna who claims he has achieved positive results to make a mango appear through mantra shakti, or make a lost limb grow. These claims of mantra shakti is always about curing cancer or other ailment that cannot be easily verified.

Talking about illusion, the case of phantom limb (google it) shows clearly what our brains can make us believe.

Cheers!
 
Dear Shri Nara,

Weapons used till now against spirituality:

Show me evidence.
Is it reproducible?

Weapon used now, after the above were said to be genuinely possible:

Perform magic
Perform miracle

Shri Nara, You would agree that neither of us would want to prove a point. so why not be reasonable while debating?
 
Sangom sir, this is why they have two convenient conditions, (i) faith and (ii) sufficiently spiritual. But this மாங்காய் test is a good one, I would like to see sravna who claims he has achieved positive results to make a mango appear through mantra shakti, or make a lost limb grow. These claims of mantra shakti is always about curing cancer or other ailment that cannot be easily verified.

Talking about illusion, the case of phantom limb (google it) shows clearly what our brains can make us believe.

Cheers!

Nara,

I am divulging something from my family, perhaps for the first time. I was told (by my mother) that she had an elder sister, very much more beautiful and intelligent but, of course, educated up to 7th. grade or so only. This late periyammai of mine one day developed giddiness on seeing the sun at the bathing ghat of the pond. There was no developed allopathic cure available then, possibly in the entire travancore state. So, as was the wont, ayurvedic vaidyan was called, elaborate kashaayams etc., were prepared and given. But her condition grew from bad to worse and a stage came when she could not withstand even the normal bright sunlight in the rooms and curtains had to be used. Otherwise she would swoon.

She was married but I did not ask my mother, for politeness' sake, whether the condition developed before or after the marriage. Anyway, the marriage itself was unhappy and the sil dropped her one day in his fil's house and just went away, it seems.

My gf was a man of some means and he, it seems, tried very many vaidyans and also doing many homams, poojais and other religious rites. He himself was a vaidikan knowing many rites and rituals, and so I have no doubt about his "spirituality". Since this was a case of his daughter, there is no doubt that he would have been sincere in doing all these rites.

At last he got some advice from someone to do "aditya homam", after reciting some particular mantra certain number of times; both the homam and the mantra were not known to him or others of his calibre. He somehow secured the details, recited the mantra the required number of times and did that aditya homam also. But all to no avail. The daughter expired, without cure and my grandfather had a shock.

In another case, one of my cousins தாயாதி, had his daughter suffering from a peculiar intestinal condition - hardening of the intestinal walls. Twice or thrice surgery was done, and the intestine was shortened. (This happened during the 1990's.) Doctors said no further surgery would be possible because her physical condition had become very weak. So my cousin who had all along been a non-believer, turned into an ultra-high voltage believer, suddenly. he went from one jyosyan to another, one temple to another, and performed many poojas and all. At last, one astrologer told him that if he got sudarsana homam with 10008 times recitation of the mantra, performed by pure vaishnavas, according to the vaishnava (vaikhanasa) sampradaaya, there would be definite cure. So he arranged accordingly (and I think about 30 or more priests had to chant from morning till late afternoon and do the homam. What to say, there was not even a temporary betterment and his daughter died within months, as had been indicated by the doctors.

I have not yet come across any case where mantra had cured any illness or brought any fortune to someone.
 
Dear Shri Sangom,

you cite your evidence and I cite mine. The former says negative , the latter says positive. Which evidence is more powerful? You decide for yourself.
 
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