Ancient hinduism VS modern hinduism

[sangom]

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• I just gave the conditions for the mantra to work. Nobody is preventing you from developing the faith or being spiritual. It definitely works on those two conditions. Because it works for me. For none of my health problems I consult a doctor. I have helped others too. As you want it , it is demonstrable each and every time. Would that be enough proof for the potency of the mantra?

Shri Sravna,
Though what you say may be correct in order for us to appreciate the statement fully, we would like to have more details like—

• the type/s of diseases which got cured
• the time taken for complete cure and the number of times the relevant mantra/s was/had to be chanted
• whether any home remedy or herbal remedies were used?
• is it possible for you to duplicate this experiment, subject to medical testing of the disease condition before chanting, and after the supposed cure?

 

[kunjuppu]

..I have not yet come across any case where mantra had cured any illness or brought any fortune to someone.

sangom,

in my family, we play the insurance game and please alll parties. this i have found is the pattern from my earliest age.

when i was none, i got jaundice. now we all know this is an infection of the liver. i ahd the yellow kind.

i went to the allopathic doctor and got the medication. side by side, my mother also took me the mandhrikan, who took a few needles, copper vesssels filled with water, and did his stuff.

eventually i was cured. mom attributed my recovery to both

the only long term impact is that for my whole life, i cannot give blood.

more recently a relative of min suffered the guillain barre syndrome. it is very scary stuff for in a matter of hours, you become entirely paralysed. fortunately in most cases, this is not permanent. gradually one recovers, some within weeks, others within months.

but during that period, the paient is bed ridden, paralysed, cant even open the mouth, and is fed through a slit in the throat, and all her private functions need to taken care by others.

elaborate prayers were done in the household. i lose count of the number of brahmins who were fed.

apollo hospital bill was $24 lakhs for 6 months care. cost incurred by the brahmins about 5 lakhs.

the recovery was complete, barring a small limp.

 

[Nara]

....Shri Nara, You would agree that neither of us would want to prove a point. so why not be reasonable while debating?

sravna, when you say matras can cure problems that science will give up 10 out of 10 times, but you must have sincere faith and must be sufficiently spiritual, then there is no scope for reasonable debate.

You are not the first one to claim mantras have supernatural powers. But, till today nobody, except one, has ever demonstrated such powers let alone carefully gather empirical evidence so that a large section of the population can benefit. The one exception was broadcast in live TV and a recording can be seen here. (See all the three parts).

Cheers!

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Diseases and disorders that got cured or controlled

1. Blood pressure, stress
2. emotions like anger
3. Sinus problem
4. All pains and aches
5. viral infections

My attempts were only on these. I normally spend 30 min initially on these. If necessary some more time later. Other than the chanting of mantra nothing else was done. As I said each time it worked.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Sangom,

I would certainly agree with the cases you have narrated. Few such things are happening around. But let me add something else as well in line with what Shri Sravna is trying to highlight.

It seems many humans wish to change the fate by spirituality. We all believers believe in Karma and "Karma Noyi"/Karma diseases that never offers a symptom or even a clue to the Drs., to eventually make the person undergo sufferings and die one day (sooner or later).

As mere humans with all basic feelings, humans tend to develop some hopes and resort to spirituality though knowing the fact that the ways and the time of death are destined.

Humans are humans with all priority to near and dear ones. Can not see the member suffering and probably die.


Basically in a day to day life, a holistic approach of Spirituality indeed serves to a larger extent in curing a sick person along with the sense of hopes and confidence to overcome the mystic pains and lead a life without being insane.

 

[Nara]

...Diseases and disorders that got cured or controlled

1. Blood pressure, stress
2. emotions like anger
3. Sinus problem
4. All pains and aches
5. viral infections

All of these could have gone by the mere passage of time, especially anger, but not viral infection, if it was indeed viral infection to begin with. The mere sitting down and chanting something, anything, or nothing, can have a calming effect and can contribute to easing of symptoms, nothing to do with power of the mantra chanted. There are ever so many possible explanations for the result, and to make a positive claim like mantras have power to cure, the phenomenon must be carefully studied in a controlled way.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Shri Prasad,

I have seen here many of your tactics, even during this short period. But you are bringing in a new weapon saying "you are lying", of course somewhat indirectly. I can say that this is so because பாம்பின் கால் பாம்புக்குத்தான் தெரியும், but I do not opt for that. I can say upon my word of honour that "inventing stories" is not my habit.

I report this post to Shri Praveen and will participate in future only if such tactics are banned.

Sir, did you read the post before reporting? It was not claiming that Michele Backmann was lying, it just said she reported a unsubstantiated story, in the same vain you were truthfully reporting a unsubstantiated hearsay. The damage is done, you can not undo even if you wanted. But to be very clear I did not allege that you lied, that charge is baseless. You are jumping to conclusion sir.

Please tell me what "tricks" i have used in the past?

 

[sravna]

All of these could have gone by the mere passage of time, especially anger, but not viral infection, if it was indeed viral infection to begin with. The mere sitting down and chanting something, anything, or nothing, can have a calming effect and can contribute to easing of symptoms, nothing to do with power of the mantra chanted. There are ever so many possible explanations for the result, and to make a positive claim like mantras have power to cure, the phenomenon must be carefully studied in a controlled way.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

everything I mentioned is a long term cure. I cannot say permanent cure because I have been doing this only a couple of years.

 

[sangom]

Sir, did you read the post before reporting? It was not claiming that Michele Backmann was lying, it just said she reported a unsubstantiated story, in the same vain you were truthfully reporting a unsubstantiated hearsay. The damage is done, you can not undo even if you wanted. But to be very clear I did not allege that you lied, that charge is baseless. You are jumping to conclusion sir.

Please tell me what "tricks" i have used in the past?

Shri Prasad,

Your actual post was as under:

Originally Posted by prasad1
This story is similar to one told by Ms. Backmann the republican presidential contender to prove her point. In politics it is convenient to invent a story. But it does not look good for you to do that. (ye aap ko shobha nahi deti hai).
Michele Bachmann's HPV Vaccine Safety and 'Retardation' Comments Misleading, Doctors Say - ABC News

I feel when someone "invents" a story, he is supposed to be telling a lie.

The meaning for "invent a story" are —

to design or create something such as a machine or process that did not exist before Alfred Nobel invented dynamite.

It’s one of the most time-saving devices ever invented for cooks.

Thesaurus entry for this meaning of invent

• a.
  to develop a new theory, style, or method that did not exist beforeChaplin invented his own unique style of comedy.
  
  Thesaurus entry for this meaning of invent

2
to make up a story, excuse etc that is not true The gossip columnists simply invented the stories about him.

She would invent any excuse to avoid seeing people.

Thesaurus entry for this meaning of invent
(invent - definition of invent by Macmillan Dictionary)
As you may know, we have to go by what is plainly written by you, not be looking into the example cited and take that as the more important one. If my reading of the portion in bold in your original post as meaning that I made up a story that was not true, is wrong, let others who may happen to read this tell.

As to your tactics (not tricks), I will better not respond now. 'tactics' means strategy, plan whereas "trick" most ordinarily means "A cunning or deceitful action or device". Kindly see the material difference. Suffice it to say that this sort of deviating by using different words to suit your plans may be one part of your strategy. Lekin ye aap ko bilkul shobha nahi deti hai, saab!

 

[Yamaka]

Reference: Yamaka in post #61:



For the same reasons for which we still believe in Cartesian and Newtonian theories though every student of science knows that they do not hold good any more and that they do not satisfactorily explain all the situations that we come across. They appear to be irrational at many situations.

Except that our youngsters of today know for a fact how Cartesian and Newtonian theories are good and their limitations... they also know the process of Scientific Inquiry and the basic fact that the knowledge base on all matters is enlarging every minute of everyday by a methodical rational approach - hypothesis and experimentation - unlike the Superstitions of God and Religion - simple Beliefs.

Fifty years ago, when I was a 10 year old boy in the rural India, I saw my first movie in a "touring talkies". I thought it was awesome and I believed in my mind what I saw was REAL: I was frightened by the atrocities of the villain and admired the hero of the movie. I listened to the soothing music and the lovely women in the movie, none was looking similar to the women that I had seen in my village! Lol.

It took several years for me to realize that the movies/dramas are a pure FICTION.

Fast forward, today, even a 6-year old boy in a forgotten town in rural India and China will tell readily that all this movies are pure FANTASY and FICTION.

They say confidently that Mani Ratnam's Raavan of last year is as IMAGINARY and a FICTION as Vyasa's Mahabharata or Valmiki's Ramayana of 2000 years ago!

These Mythologies were written to propagate the Lord Krishna/Rama worship in India..as Lord Shiva worship was dominating the day!

That was just a marketing ploy by the Authors Vyasa and Valmiki, the poets of immense literary prowess.

Nothing more, so say our youngsters of today!

Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom,

I would certainly agree with the cases you have narrated. Few such things are happening around. But let me add something else as well in line with what Shri Sravna is trying to highlight.

It seems many humans wish to change the fate by spirituality. We all believers believe in Karma and "Karma Noyi"/Karma diseases that never offers a symptom or even a clue to the Drs., to eventually make the person undergo sufferings and die one day (sooner or later).

As mere humans with all basic feelings, humans tend to develop some hopes and resort to spirituality though knowing the fact that the ways and the time of death are destined.

Humans are humans with all priority to near and dear ones. Can not see the member suffering and probably die.


Basically in a day to day life, a holistic approach of Spirituality indeed serves to a larger extent in curing a sick person along with the sense of hopes and confidence to overcome the mystic pains and lead a life without being insane.

Shri Ravi,

The psychosomatic disorders will fit in well with what you say, viz., "Karma Noyi"/Karma diseases that never offers a symptom or even a clue to the Drs., to eventually make the person undergo sufferings and die one day (sooner or later).

I had one female relative with a very unhappy marriage to a very religious believer and a son who was "spoiled" by overdose of religion. She developed a peculiar black thickening of the skin on her head, with the result that fair and beautiful lady became ugly looking. Her brother is crorepati doctor owning his own medium-size nursing home. He and his experts checked her and (correctly) diagnosed it as psychosomatic. Hence no cure because the couple were 70+, and the son 40+ and nothing could be done to change any one of the three. Perhaps if the disease had manifested earlier, some thing could have been done.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Diseases and disorders that got cured or controlled

1. Blood pressure, stress
2. emotions like anger
3. Sinus problem
4. All pains and aches
5. viral infections

My attempts were only on these. I normally spend 30 min initially on these. If necessary some more time later. Other than the chanting of mantra nothing else was done. As I said each time it worked.

Dear Shri Sravna,

Except viral infections and sinus problem, it is possible that your mantra recital calms you down and also gives a certain psychological satisfaction to you also. Since you say that it is a continuing treatment and can't say whether mantra has completely cured, it looks like a psychological cure only, at best.

 

[kunjuppu]

Shri Ravi,

The psychosomatic disorders will fit in well with what you say, viz., "Karma Noyi"/Karma diseases that never offers a symptom or even a clue to the Drs., to eventually make the person undergo sufferings and die one day (sooner or later).

I had one female relative with a very unhappy marriage to a very religious believer and a son who was "spoiled" by overdose of religion. She developed a peculiar black thickening of the skin on her head, with the result that fair and beautiful lady became ugly looking. Her brother is crorepati doctor owning his own medium-size nursing home. He and his experts checked her and (correctly) diagnosed it as psychosomatic. Hence no cure because the couple were 70+, and the son 40+ and nothing could be done to change any one of the three. Perhaps if the disease had manifested earlier, some thing could have been done.

dear sangom,

one cannot underestimate or discount, that the pain in the mind, manifests itself in diseases of the body.

one of my female relatives, living with her son/dil, developed not only migraines, but rashes in the skin and sleeplessness.

heavy doses of pills did no cure.

someone near and dear to her, suggested that she leave the son/dil and live a thani kudithanam. within the week of moving separately all the ills disappeared. this, even though, there was no overt fight or words between mil and sil.

our mind works strangely, it can dupe the world, but it cannot dupe the body to which it is attached.

 

[zebra16]

I would only say that theists are jay-walking here by narrating "experiences" as evidence. It would be a matter of time before someone questions, if mantras are effective why is that religious institutions are building and administering super- speciality hospitals. Is mantra effective only for minor ailments. If a mantra exists for repeatedly giving relief to an ailment, can there not be a mantra to prevent the recurrence of ailment etc. What is more why some theists are physicians or surgeons?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

An incident that happened recently. A person, I prefer not to disclose who it is, suffering from blood pressure had a reading of 140/ 85 and my brother who is a doctor and in US was the one who was checked the bp. I was aware of the reading the time it was made and I told my brother I would try to bring it down in 30 min. After 30 min I found out that the bp indeed came down to 115/70. My brother was surprised and said that such a significant drop does not occur in a short interval normally. But as a western trained expert he was hesitant to accept my theory without conclusive evidence.

The point is if something can be repeated again and again the evidence becomes stronger and stronger. After all scientific proof is based on repeatable evidence, isn't it?.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Shri Sangom,

An incident that happened recently. A person, I prefer not to disclose who it is, suffering from blood pressure had a reading of 140/ 85 and my brother who is a doctor and in US was the one who was checked the bp. I was aware of the reading the time it was made and I told my brother I would try to bring it down in 30 min. After 30 min I found out that the bp indeed came down to 115/70. My brother was surprised and said that such a significant drop does not occur in a short interval normally. But as a western trained expert he was hesitant to accept my theory without conclusive evidence.

The point is if something can be repeated again and again the evidence becomes stronger and stronger. After all scientific proof is based on repeatable evidence, isn't it?.

Knowing you from your post, I will not doubt it. I am usually very apprehensive of such claims. I may have to modify my views. I will write you privately.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

An incident that happened recently. A person, I prefer not to disclose who it is, suffering from blood pressure had a reading of 140/ 85 and my brother who is a doctor and in US was the one who was checked the bp. I was aware of the reading the time it was made and I told my brother I would try to bring it down in 30 min. After 30 min I found out that the bp indeed came down to 115/70. My brother was surprised and said that such a significant drop does not occur in a short interval normally. But as a western trained expert he was hesitant to accept my theory without conclusive evidence.

The point is if something can be repeated again and again the evidence becomes stronger and stronger. After all scientific proof is based on repeatable evidence, isn't it?.

Dear sravna,

My doubts are :—

• was the sufferer in India or US at the time BP was measured?
• was the doctor checking by remote control or from near the patient?
• from where did you chant the mantras - at your home in BGL or in US, near the patient?
• what was the history of the patient - some people have their BP suddenly shooting up, to come down after a shortwhile. (you may kindly check this with your doctor brother.)
• if the patient has/had such varying BP, can we say BP came down due to mantra?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Dear sravna,

My doubts are :—

• was the sufferer in India or US at the time BP was measured?

The patient was in the US.

• was the doctor checking by remote control or from near the patient?

It was my my brother who was with the patient and who checked the BP

• from where did you chant the mantras - at your home in BGL or in US, near the patient?

from India

• what was the history of the patient - some people have their BP suddenly shooting up, to come down after a shortwhile. (you may kindly check this with your doctor brother.)

the patient used to consistently have BP around 140/90. After I started working on that the BP has rarely crossed 120/80. I would mention here that the patient was on medication when the BP was around 140/90.

• if the patient has/had such varying BP, can we say BP came down due to mantra?

BP I understand from my brother does vary somewhat from one reading to another for various reasons. But so significantly in a short period? This along with other instances of cure/control suggests that the spirituality angle is definitely worth considering.

One possibility is that thoughts by itself may have some potency. But somehow I am inclined to believe that the mantra part does work

 

[sravna]

Knowing you from your post, I will not doubt it.

thanks!

I am usually very apprehensive of such claims. I may have to modify my views. I will write you privately

Sure.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Dear Shri Sravna,

• If as you say, your chanting of the mantra/s from here in India could bring down BP of a patient in US, it definitely is worth further investigation on a scientific basis. But I don't know how this could be made possible. May be as a first step, you can try this on a random sample of patients coming to consult your brother, have the full details recorded, including the period during which the mantra was chanted, the details of the mantra, and the result thereof.
• It should also be seen if the patient is someone who might be believing in mantras.
• the BP readings, say, after the mantra therapy is over, should be recorded at regular intervals in order to check whether this therapy gives a lasting/long term cure or is only a continuing therapy.

Will such a research be possible?

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sravna,

• If as you say, your chanting of the mantra/s from here in India could bring down BP of a patient in US, it definitely is worth further investigation on a scientific basis. But I don't know how this could be made possible. May be as a first step, you can try this on a random sample of patients coming to consult your brother, have the full details recorded, including the period during which the mantra was chanted, the details of the mantra, and the result thereof.
• It should also be seen if the patient is someone who might be believing in mantras.
• the BP readings, say, after the mantra therapy is over, should be recorded at regular intervals in order to check whether this therapy gives a lasting/long term cure or is only a continuing therapy.

Will such a research be possible?

Dear Shri Sangom,

Such a research is definitely possible, though not with my brother. He does not directly treat patients now but in an administrative position. Why not you suggest a doctor and we can carry out the research?

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Such a research is definitely possible, though not with my brother. He does not directly treat patients now but in an administrative position. Why not you suggest a doctor and we can carry out the research?

I suppose you are located in Bengaluru, a place about which I have not much knowledge. You may, if possible, select a doctor of your choice and I am prepared to believe in your honesty. After all, if something like the efficacy of mantras by transmission over distances can be proved, nothing like that, you see.

 

[sravna]

I suppose you are located in Bengaluru, a place about which I have not much knowledge. You may, if possible, select a doctor of your choice and I am prepared to believe in your honesty. After all, if something like the efficacy of mantras by transmission over distances can be proved, nothing like that, you see.

OK my sister is a doctor too and a GP. May be I could carry out this research with her help. Thanks for the trust. btw I am located in Ranipet and not bangalore though I would be shifting to chennai soon.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri Sangom,

Dear Sravna and others:

There are lots of people in India claiming many things in the name of "Miracle of Poojas/Prayers/Slokas etc).

In general, I just don't believe it.

That too on BP it is very tricky.

1. A persistent 140/90 will put the patient mildly hypertensive. This patient was not given right dose of medication to bring it below or near 120/80. This may be due to the age of the patient also.

2. I will do the Expt the following way:

a. Get about 25 really hypertensive patients without any medication with a reading of 145-150/95-100 (systolic/diastolic pressure).

b. Do the sloka reading or poojas or prayers or whatever for the maximum effect.

c. Then measure the BP several times. Record it immediately.

d. Repeat this for over a month and record the BP readings.

e. Then look at the data without any bias/prejudice.

I will bet there will not be any consistent meaningful effect.

Wait & watch.

 

[nachi naga]

nothing ever changed from then to now.its old wine in a new bottle.dharma which is sanathanam is what existed then,now and in future as well.