Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?

[Visalakshi Ramani]

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:welcome:back Guruji!
I was not sure that you were still in the forum!

 

[ShivKC]

[video=youtube;P7Xgc4ljHKM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=P7Xgc4ljHKM[/video]
The public image of the Brahmins, for instance, is that of an affluent, pampered class. But is it so today?


Doctors in arms


There are 50 Sulabh Shauchalayas (public toilets) in Delhi; all of them are cleaned and looked after by Brahmins (this very welcome public institution was started by a Brahmin). A far cry from the elitist image that Brahmins have!

India_Abroad

this site is meant for Tamizh Brahmins, not for other brahmins.. TBs are far better and doing well, and its true many a brahmins of north are living life far below dalits.

anyways, our concern is only about TBs. Thanks

 

[P.J.]

this site is meant for Tamizh Brahmins, not for other brahmins.. TBs are far better and doing well, and its true many a brahmins of north are living life far below dalits.

anyways, our concern is only about TBs. Thanks

ShivKC Sir

Are you sure that this Site is meant ONLY FOR TAMIZ BRAHMINS?

 

[prasad1]

this site is meant for Tamizh Brahmins, not for other brahmins.. TBs are far better and doing well, and its true many a brahmins of north are living life far below dalits.

anyways, our concern is only about TBs. Thanks

According to Mr. Praveen this site is open to all. We as guest in this site have no say in who can and who cannot participate.
So before passing judgement let us respect the owner of the site.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

this site is meant for Tamizh Brahmins, not for other brahmins.. TBs are far better and doing well, and its true many a brahmins of north are living life far below dalits.

anyways, our concern is only about TBs. Thanks

Since when did the Shiv GaN become

so narrow minded and self centered???!!! :shocked:

 

[XLR8R]

Brahmins are worse than Dalits, have no doubts!
The reason ...???
A Brahmin girl will happily marry a well placed dalit
but she will shun like a leper a poor Brahmin!

The truth is that this occurs because society raises the girls to think someone is always going to give them a free ticket. A girl raised in a good, god-fearing, highly cultural background will never do this. I have personal experience, but usually such girls are not TBs. TB girls study well, work well, but have some weird complex of marrying richer people only.

Money is not everything, I wish girls (and especially TB girls) would realize this. Cultural affinities matter a lot. That being said, the more I observe TB girls these days, the more I think I am better off elsewhere.

A brahmin may be poor and repressed today but they usually still manage to do fairly well. This is a topic that has been discussed many times over and over.

 

[kunjuppu]

personally i think, this site, many of us discuss anything under the sun. also because it is cyber based, anonomity also ensures all kinds of participants.

i only have a confusion, when someone puts a video like this, and i think, implies how far we have come down the socio economic ladder.

it is here, that we need to emphasize to compare apples to apples. tambrams have more in common with other tamil hindus than with north indian brahmins, by way of language, way of life, values and ambitions. the commonality with other brahmins is our religious practices, which we are continually abandoning, and re inventing ourselves into a society in tune with today's needs (if not values).

so let us be specific. this video, has nothing in common with us. it is of interest to us because we see our other Brahmins in other states, are reinventing themselves out of poverty and starvation.

I do not see any reason for breast beating or pointing to the scriptures, and wondering if this portends to more evil things to happen. India is evolving and disenfranchised are making their way up in the world.

Many of here in this forum are only one or two generations removed from kanji veLLam for breakfast. I admire these folks in the video. Not disparage them or show them up as examples of persecution.

To even call us the dalit of today, is an insult to the dalits. The dalits, thanks to manu, were placed outside the caste spectrum, of which the Brahmins were the top layer. The dalits suffered crimes of humanity, and the perpetuators of these crimes, sanctioned these, in the name of religion, and got rewarded for it. How can we compare ourselves or any Brahmins for that matter to dalits.

 

[sangom]

personally i think, this site, many of us discuss anything under the sun. also because it is cyber based, anonomity also ensures all kinds of participants.

i only have a confusion, when someone puts a video like this, and i think, implies how far we have come down the socio economic ladder.

it is here, that we need to emphasize to compare apples to apples. tambrams have more in common with other tamil hindus than with north indian brahmins, by way of language, way of life, values and ambitions. the commonality with other brahmins is our religious practices, which we are continually abandoning, and re inventing ourselves into a society in tune with today's needs (if not values).

so let us be specific. this video, has nothing in common with us. it is of interest to us because we see our other Brahmins in other states, are reinventing themselves out of poverty and starvation.

I do not see any reason for breast beating or pointing to the scriptures, and wondering if this portends to more evil things to happen. India is evolving and disenfranchised are making their way up in the world.

Many of here in this forum are only one or two generations removed from kanji veLLam for breakfast. I admire these folks in the video. Not disparage them or show them up as examples of persecution.

To even call us the dalit of today, is an insult to the dalits. The dalits, thanks to manu, were placed outside the caste spectrum, of which the Brahmins were the top layer. The dalits suffered crimes of humanity, and the perpetuators of these crimes, sanctioned these, in the name of religion, and got rewarded for it. How can we compare ourselves or any Brahmins for that matter to dalits.

When I read the OP, I was surprised that it was posted by Shri Prasad. This thread title "Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?" was possibly created because there was a feeling about some brahmins doing the latrine cleaning jobs in some cities of N. India. "Dalits of today" implies indirectly the life of Dalits in the olden times has now come to revisit the Brahmins of today. Anyway, in the olden days a Dalit just could not ever hope to even within the village areas, and hope to study and take up any occupation of his choice. But today's Brahmins are only deprived of Government jobs and seats in higher education in a few fields. Hence the Brahmins of today are far better than the Dalits, and even the classical "Shudras", imho.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Sangom,
You are right, the words chosen in the op were not appropriate.
I wanted to show two aspects:
1. That the birth "caste" has nothing to do with the job and values we live now
2. The quota system is creating a new under-class.
On hindsight I should have chosen the words properly. The OP seemed catchy and I thought it will bring more views.

I am little tired of people praising Brahmin-haters, or turning and bashing Brahmins (all N & S) on this site.

 

[suraju06]

Mr. Sangom,
You are right, the words chosen in the op were not appropriate.
I wanted to show two aspects:
1. That the birth "caste" has nothing to do with the job and values we live now
2. The quota system is creating a new under-class.
On hindsight I should have chosen the words properly. The OP seemed catchy and I thought it will bring more views.
I am little tired of people praising Brahmin-haters, or turning and bashing Brahmins (all N & S) on this site.

Dear Prasad,

You are only a little tired. I reached the edge long back and when I reached there I decided that I will hit back at every such basher. We have b.bashers of different varieties here. Some are cynics who are looking at themselves every day in the morning in the mirror. Poor chaps they do not like what they see. Being themselves brahmins they come here to bash brahmins. We have people who have read a lot and have stopped reading further. So they know just enough to break the Padma Vuham and get in but do not know what to do after entering in. They are always at sea with every thing that is there in Hinduism. I have long back asked these super intellectuals just one question for which I have yet to get an answer. The questions keep echoing without an answer so far. For your convenience I reproduce here the question:

If all the brahmins were thrown into the Arabian sea or banished from the country or converted into plain donkeys by waving a magic wand, will the castes and casteist atrocities disappear from our land?

You will reach soon where I reached long back.

Cheers.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I wanted to show two aspects:
1. That the birth "caste" has nothing to do with the job and values we live now
2. The quota system is creating a new under-class.

Dear Prasad,

These are important points that you bring up.

I think some members are deliberately overlooking these points and are trying to blame you for the title, which, incidentally as shown in SS's post #3 was not yours but the title of the article written by Francois Gautier.

I think the article helps to highlight the anomalies of the quota system, which is based purely on caste determined at birth. The children of these brahmins do not deserve the discrimination meted out by the government.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Prasad,

These are important points that you bring up.

I think some members are deliberately overlooking these points and are trying to blame you for the title, which, incidentally as shown in SS's post #3 was not yours but the title of the article written by Francois Gautier.

I think the article helps to highlight the anomalies of the quota system, which is based purely on caste determined at birth. The children of these brahmins do not deserve the discrimination meted out by the government.

Thanks for your contribution.

 

[tbs]

Dear Prasad,

You are only a little tired. I reached the edge long back and when I reached there I decided that I will hit back at every such basher. We have b.bashers of different varieties here. Some are cynics who are looking at themselves every day in the morning in the mirror. Poor chaps they do not like what they see. Being themselves brahmins they come here to bash brahmins. We have people who have read a lot and have stopped reading further. So they know just enough to break the Padma Vuham and get in but do not know what to do after entering in. They are always at sea with every thing that is there in Hinduism. I have long back asked these super intellectuals just one question for which I have yet to get an answer. The questions keep echoing without an answer so far. For your convenience I reproduce here the question:

If all the brahmins were thrown into the Arabian sea or banished from the country or converted into plain donkeys by waving a magic wand, will the castes and casteist atrocities disappear from our land?

You will reach soon where I reached long back.

Cheers.

hi suraju sir,

i agreed with u....same question...if all brahmins goes away from earth....then the caste/quota system goes away?...the answer

is BIG NO...then the new caste will come....quota system continue wuthout any hue cry....even all brahmins convert into christianty....STILL THEY CALL AS BRAHMIN CHRISTRIANITY........LIKE A HINDU BORN IN AMERICA IS CALLED HINDU AMERICAN....

NOT AMERICAN.....EVEN AN INDIAN BOY BORN IN AMERICA IS CALLED INDIAN AMERICAN....NOT AMERICAN....the same way

many dalits converted into christian....STILL THEY CALLED DALIT CHRISTIANS....likewise ALL BRAHMINS CONVERTED INTO

CHRISTIANITY IS CALLED BRAHMIN CHRISTIANS ONLY....NOT REAL CHRISTIANS...

 

[prasad1]

hi suraju sir,

i agreed with u....same question...if all brahmins goes away from earth....then the caste/quota system goes away?...the answer

is BIG NO...then the new caste will come....quota system continue wuthout any hue cry....even all brahmins convert into christianty....STILL THEY CALL AS BRAHMIN CHRISTRIANITY........LIKE A HINDU BORN IN AMERICA IS CALLED HINDU AMERICAN....

NOT AMERICAN.....EVEN AN INDIAN BOY BORN IN AMERICA IS CALLED INDIAN AMERICAN....NOT AMERICAN....the same way

many dalits converted into christian....STILL THEY CALLED DALIT CHRISTIANS....likewise ALL BRAHMINS CONVERTED INTO

CHRISTIANITY IS CALLED BRAHMIN CHRISTIANS ONLY....NOT REAL CHRISTIANS...

Sir,
I do not know what corner of USA you live in. May be you just move in little India in USA. people born in USA are called American citizen, and they all get American passport. You want to claim an identity you can say the state or ancestry but there is no difference in classification. There is no quota by origin or identity in USA.
If at all they may be called American pio for Indian visa.

 

[sarang]

Brahmins are brahmins and dalits are dalits. Brhamins have a long history of thousands of years; dalits are only 100 years old. There were no dalits hundred years ago. They can and should renounce this imposed name for their own good and progress; and must not allow opportunists to exploit them.

Blaming brahmins or manu smriti for the plight of dalits is a non-starter.

 

[tbs]

Sir,
I do not know what corner of USA you live in. May be you just move in little India in USA. people born in USA are called American citizen, and they all get American passport. You want to claim an identity you can say the state or ancestry but there is no difference in classification. There is no quota by origin or identity in USA.
If at all they may be called American pio for Indian visa.

hi prasad,
you can call american citizen....but not as white american...our own children born in america is INDIAN AMERICAN...this is

the identity of indan brown skin children...may be WHITE AMERICANS ARE AMERICANS....

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

hi prasad,
you can call american citizen....but not as white american...our own children born in america is INDIAN AMERICAN...this is

the identity of indan brown skin children...may be WHITE AMERICANS ARE AMERICANS....

RED INDIANS are the original Native Americans.
Everyone else white/ black/ brown/ yellow
moved in later at differnet periods.
Oh what a colorful nation!!!
Only Blue and Green are missing.
We can have the Avatar people for blue
and the Men from Mars for the green! :thumb:

 

[sangom]

Mr. Sangom,
You are right, the words chosen in the op were not appropriate.
I wanted to show two aspects:
1. That the birth "caste" has nothing to do with the job and values we live now
2. The quota system is creating a new under-class.
On hindsight I should have chosen the words properly. The OP seemed catchy and I thought it will bring more views.

I am little tired of people praising Brahmin-haters, or turning and bashing Brahmins (all N & S) on this site.

Dear Shri Prasad,

These terms (Brahmin-haters, Brahmin-bashers, etc.,) have been the patent trade mark of some members around here. I have not been able to understand what is or what was, so glorious about brahmins that any criticism of brahmins (mind you, I am not talking about caricaturing as is done in the cinema and other media) with sufficient backing of facts, is termed as Brahmin-bashing and such critics are called Brahmin-haters? If at all, I think it is a misplaced glorious feeling about Brahmins having been superhumanly great and noble, and have made signal contributions to the progress of the society, at some period in the endless flow of time, which makes a few of our people to carry such a chip on their shoulder about this.

If we analyze the history of the sub-continent for as long as we can, have not all the castes (Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Shudra) with the myriad sub-castes and sub-groups within each of these four, as also the Chandalas (Dalits or Panchamas) played their roles in sustaining this great ocean of population for thousands of years? And do we not recognize that it is the vaisyas (many of whose sub-groups came to be regarded as Shudra in the course of time) have been / are the most important among these as per the KuraL, "uzhuthuNTu vAzhvArE vAzhvAr, maRREllAm thozhuthuNTu pin celpavar". (Only those who plough the land and produce food, live; the rest of the people lead a cringing life dependent on the former.)

So, what greatness can we brahmins claim before the Almighty as compared to the Shudras and Dalits who were for a long time in the past and still are today, the real people tilling the soil and producing food for the entire country? Hence, why should there be so much bad feeling if some of the defects/deficiencies/inadequacies of the Brahmin caste is pointed out so that we may think and correct ourselves, if we are capable of it? Is there any benefit by being so intolerant of criticism within ourselves, when history with its unopposable might, has shown the place for brahmins in the society more than adequately?

 

[sarang]

Modern psychologists and even self improvement specialists believe in auto suggestions for personal improvement. Of course one can go ahead and say - I am no good, I am imperfect, I am nothing, I am worse than a worm and so on. He will eventually obtain what he wants and reach where he wants to go.

It is ridiculous, undesirable, reprehensible and revolting when brahmins are criticised by those who have no faith in brahminhood or by those who want to destroy brahmins and brahminism. Over the ages there have been countless brahmin acharyas who did not agree with what was followed; and modified principles and practices; they were followed by some and rejected by some. Even today acharyas are doing this and advising their disciples when contradictions or uncertainties are faced.

Of course, the option to renounce brahmin status is available to those who hate the varna. A few more kamalhaasans can get vicarious pleasure from mouthing jibes at brahmins. Nothing but insect bites.

Everybody has the right to feel superior - a lion or a mouse. Vaali is vaanarottama, ravana is rakshasatomma, garuda is dwijottama. It is a western concept that when one idea is superior, other ideas are inferior. We don't think so. Brahmins are superior; so are others. That is why contradictory principles, opinions and behaviours have co existed in our punyabhoomi.

Dear Shri Prasad,

These terms (Brahmin-haters, Brahmin-bashers, etc.,) have been the patent trade mark of some members around here. I have not been able to understand what is or what was, so glorious about brahmins that any criticism of brahmins (mind you, I am not talking about caricaturing as is done in the cinema and other media) with sufficient backing of facts, is termed as Brahmin-bashing and such critics are called Brahmin-haters? If at all, I think it is a misplaced glorious feeling about Brahmins having been superhumanly great and noble, and have made signal contributions to the progress of the society, at some period in the endless flow of time, which makes a few of our people to carry such a chip on their shoulder about this.

If we analyze the history of the sub-continent for as long as we can, have not all the castes (Brahmana, Kshatriya, Vaisya and Shudra) with the myriad sub-castes and sub-groups within each of these four, as also the Chandalas (Dalits or Panchamas) played their roles in sustaining this great ocean of population for thousands of years? And do we not recognize that it is the vaisyas (many of whose sub-groups came to be regarded as Shudra in the course of time) have been / are the most important among these as per the KuraL, "uzhuthuNTu vAzhvArE vAzhvAr, maRREllAm thozhuthuNTu pin celpavar". (Only those who plough the land and produce food, live; the rest of the people lead a cringing life dependent on the former.)

So, what greatness can we brahmins claim before the Almighty as compared to the Shudras and Dalits who were for a long time in the past and still are today, the real people tilling the soil and producing food for the entire country? Hence, why should there be so much bad feeling if some of the defects/deficiencies/inadequacies of the Brahmin caste is pointed out so that we may think and correct ourselves, if we are capable of it? Is there any benefit by being so intolerant of criticism within ourselves, when history with its unopposable might, has shown the place for brahmins in the society more than adequately?

 

[prasad1]

hi prasad,
you can call american citizen....but not as white american...our own children born in america is INDIAN AMERICAN...this is

the identity of indan brown skin children...may be WHITE AMERICANS ARE AMERICANS....

This distinction is only by people who want to put you down, and immigrants. White American is not a monolith. If you go among white American they identify themselves as protestant, catholic, Jewish, sometimes as Irish, nordic, German, Italians as well. So when you see from outside a forrest looks full of trees, but when you look closer you see the various shades, texture, height, and verity of flora.

If you asked
President Kailash Purryag of Mauritius he will identify himself as Mauritian first and then may be Indian. The emphasis is how do you see yourself.

Mr. Bobby Jindal identifies himself as American, and may even run for nationwide election.