Brahmin (NB?) girls!!

[கால பைரவன்]

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The concept of reservation started pre-independence. Reservation in educational institutions for SC/ST is as old as our republic. Those who implemented this system were above petty political interests. So, this charge is a hyperbole.

Nara seems to be lagging behind. He could refer to the arguments in Aarakshan thread to get an understanding of my position regarding reservations.

Just because the people who started the system were above petty political interests, it does not mean that today it is not being abused.

Further, if the electoral alliances are any indication, one can see that no party has a lock on any section of society that receives reservation benefit. This is another emotional charge not supported by data.

Parties try to neutralize any advantage gained by others by merely joining the bandwagon of exclusive benefits. However to get ahead, parties promise additional benefits and that's is the primary reason behind the steady increase in targeted benefits discriminating people based on caste and religion.

Also, if you look at poverty, you would find it is lot more prevalent among dalits than Bs. Further, a poor B, even if he/she barely passed +2, has a lot wider support network, but a class topper dalit can turn to nobody else but the government. In other words, even the poorest of Brahmins have access to infinitely more cultural assets like Kerala Brahmin association than a dalit, even if he/she is a class topper.

The question is how does a cultural asset help a poor brahmin or an FC pay his fees for education?

If, as Nara claims, the percentage of poor FCs are very low and considering that the population of FCs is also very low, what is the need to keep such a minuscule percentage out of such benefits?

I feel that any person who tries to side-step an argument about discrimination practiced by govt that involves all people including OBCs and minorities by just citing dalits does so with vested interests. Bringing dalits into equation to also defend exclusive benefits provided to OBCs or minorities is a sham.

 

[happyhindu]

I am pointing out the fact that the government will discriminate even the poorest with pretty low income levels - in this case about Rs. 150 per day, based on caste.

So it is beneficial to a brahmin if he raises his kid as a NB (as Sangom suggested), when there is an opportunity as in case of inter-caste marriages involving brahmin woman and NB man.

I don't understand this. Where has the government involved in any sort of "discrimination" based on income levels ??

What we noted was that the scavengers / safai karamcharis have no income ceiling, which means no matter what their income is, they can still get educational loans. Such a "discrimination" is only a "positive-discrimination" and i do not think the word to be used is 'discrimination' in such case.

 

[happyhindu]

since the concept of reservation has been on since 1947, we have had more than 3 generations of dalits who have had the benefit of modern education and who are a good role model for their communities. but that is only a small percentage, <10%, i think. the vast majority of the dalits are still living the life of their forefathers, if not physically, mentally socially and above all economically. the biggest crime of hinduism, has been to marginalize the dalits, to a group beyond the pale, and for which no amount of restitution can be provided. this is our original sin, and we brahmins, at the top of the totem pole, are sole responsble for this stratification of castes and its consequences.

Unfortunately sir, despite introducing reservations for jobs and education decades back, the majority of OBCs, SCs and STs were not forthcoming in taking advantage of it. The bulk majority remained illiterate. This is what i find in quite a few books. After so many changes, only now we are seeing the movement of the 'low' and the 'lowest' towards betterment.

Tamilnadu must say is a role model in this to others. Their literacy figures for various sections (OBC, SC, ST) are high (compared to say, around a measly 50+ % for various sections in Andhra).

What Tamilnadu did was to push the 'backward' and the 'scheduled' into some or the other vocational or technical education, create a skilled workforce, bring in multinationals and supply skilled workers to them.

In this way the state has become the most industrialized in the south. As of 2010, Tamilnadu was the third largest contributor of India's GDP.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I am pointing out the fact that the government will discriminate even the poorest with pretty low income levels - in this case about Rs. 150 per day, based on caste.

So it is beneficial to a brahmin if he raises his kid as a NB (as Sangom suggested), when there is an opportunity as in case of inter-caste marriages involving brahmin woman and NB man.

I don't understand this. Where has the government involved in any sort of "discrimination" based on income levels ??

What we noted was that the scavengers / safai karamcharis have no income ceiling, which means no matter what their income is, they can still get educational loans. Such a "discrimination" is only a "positive-discrimination" and i do not think the word to be used is 'discrimination' in such case.

It does not look like HH understood my post. The discrimination is based on caste, against FCs. Here, I am talking specifically about providing loans at a low interest rate. The benefit is provided to the poorest of the poor (those whose income levels are below Rs. 150 per day). Yet, the govt keeps those poorest persons from FC communities out of the pool. I consider it discrimination. It appears HH, Kunjuppu and Nara do not think so. For them, this is justice. I disagree. That is all!

 

[happyhindu]

It does not look like HH understood my post. The discrimination is based on caste, against FCs. Here, I am talking specifically about providing loans at a low interest rate. The benefit is provided to the poorest of the poor (those whose income levels are below Rs. 150 per day). Yet, the govt keeps those poorest persons from FC communities out of the pool. I consider it discrimination. It appears HH, Kunjuppu and Nara do not think so. For them, this is justice. I disagree. That is all!

Alright so you are saying that the government does not give educational loans to Forward Castes who are very poor. To prove this, one would have to provide data that Forward Castes are indeed very poor. So please let me know how many brahmins are poor earning less than Rs.150 per day in tamilnadu?

The criteria of "Social Justice" is not just poverty, because there are far too many poor people. The focus is on upliftment of 'low-castes" to help them better their lives and move out of their traditional occupations if they choose to.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Alright so you are saying that the government does not give educational loans to Forward Castes who are very poor. To prove this...

What is the need for proof here? It is the announced policy of the govt that it excludes FCs from this scheme.

one would have to provide data that Forward Castes are indeed very poor. So please let me know how many brahmins are poor earning less than Rs.150 per day in tamilnadu?

Once again, you seem to ask data from a simple blogger like me. How is that fair? Instead you should be asking the govt for data. If, as you seem to indicate, there are no poor people belonging to communities classified as forward class, why announce a scheme specifically excluding FCs?

Not everything can be justified in the name of social justice.

 

[happyhindu]

What is the need for proof here? It is the announced policy of the govt that it excludes FCs from this scheme.

Well, the proof asked was to show that Forward Castes are indeed very poor. If there are sabhas, samoohams, associations, etc, surely these can provide proof how many people registered with them are poor, no?

Once again, you seem to ask data from a simple blogger like me. How is that fair? Instead you should be asking the govt for data. If, as you seem to indicate, there are no poor people belonging to communities classified as forward class, why announce a scheme specifically excluding FCs?

Well, the government and everyone else simply persume that there are no poor people amongst Forward Castes. So it specifically excludes Forward Castes. Priests can make a decent living no? Who is poor amongst brahmins please?

Not everything can be justified in the name of social justice.

Well, possibly its about overturning everything that the smrithis achieved..

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

M/s HH has queried as "as to who is poor amongst Brahmin Community".
I can confidently say that there are thousands of Poor brahmin families in Tamilnadu.False prestige and Ego makes them pretend as if they are not poor.One lady aged about 60+ from Vaikasana community(mostly temple priests in Vaishnavite temples) is working in my house in Chennai
for the past 8 years staying with us as a member of our family assisting us in all domestic work.She became a widow at a fairly young age,has three sons working as temple priests in newly established temples in Residential colonies.All the three sons are married.Their monthly salary as temple priest does not exceed Rs.1500 per month.They carry on life with this meagre salary plus 'Thattu collections'.They also participate in
other ceremonies/functions/rituals to supplement the income.They cannot dream of giving decent modern education to their children.They cannot even take leave for long spells without making alternative arrangement.
Their only mistake is they were born in poor brahmin families and not in BC/MBC/ST/SC communities in present day Tamilnadu.

 

[valli]

Dear Valli,

There are opposite situations also, of NB girls happily married into TB families. And of TB girls very unhappy in NB families.

Irrespective of B or NB, i feel marriage is a bit of a "game of chance". There are "astrologically-perfect" couples with failed marriages and vice-versa also (of couples with no astrological porutham having good marriages).

Dunno but maybe generalizing is not a good idea...Bcoz like our birth, there are some events which are not in our hands or in which we do not have much control. So irrespective of B or NB, i feel marriage is like a gamble in which both the dice-players merely acts of fate. Maybe its a case of "ellam avan seiyyal".

I definitely agree with what you have said dear Happyhindu! If I sounded like generalizing then it was not intentional!

Kind regards

 

[sangom]

K, This is only for the benefits government offers to certain sections of society. Government won't hinder an icm couple from raising their children without any caste identity.

Cheers!

Not only that; in TN (and perhaps in all other states also) the choice of SC/ST status for the off-springs of ICMs is dependent upon the way these offsprings are brought up. The rule that they will belong to the father's caste is no longer applicable it seems. Pl.see this:

Government of Tamil Nadu - Government Orders

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I have a doubt.In this thread we are discussing about the continued status as 'Brahmin' for Brahmin Girls who have married NB boys.
What will be the caste of Brahmins(both Males and females)who have converted themselves as Christians and are they permitted to continue to
call themselves "Brahmin Christians"
In this connection refer to Post no 11 in the thread "beyond symptametic...........infesting Brahmins" under "Sociology" which has a refernce to one particular
website.
Even my friend who was a SV Brahmin but now a christian for the past 25 years has registered himself in this forum as a "Brahmin Christian"

 

[valli]

Dear Shri Sangom

So, it all depends on the in-built psychology of some of the TBs about their superiority due to brahmin birth. This feeling of superiority is something which has gone so deep into some peoples' minds that it is very difficult to eradicate it.

Sadly very true isn't it? There is one more side to it also - even if the parents/siblings want to overlook the NB/B difference and accept the girl, they are afraid of what the relatives will say and also afraid that the relatives may outcast them!

So, for them it is better that they outcast their daughter/sister rather than they also becoming an outcast!

Kind regards

 

[happyhindu]

M/s HH has queried as "as to who is poor amongst Brahmin Community".
I can confidently say that there are thousands of Poor brahmin families in Tamilnadu.False prestige and Ego makes them pretend as if they are not poor.One lady aged about 60+ from Vaikasana community(mostly temple priests in Vaishnavite temples) is working in my house in Chennai
for the past 8 years staying with us as a member of our family assisting us in all domestic work.She became a widow at a fairly young age,has three sons working as temple priests in newly established temples in Residential colonies.All the three sons are married.Their monthly salary as temple priest does not exceed Rs.1500 per month.They carry on life with this meagre salary plus 'Thattu collections'.They also participate in
other ceremonies/functions/rituals to supplement the income.They cannot dream of giving decent modern education to their children.They cannot even take leave for long spells without making alternative arrangement.
Their only mistake is they were born in poor brahmin families and not in BC/MBC/ST/SC communities in present day Tamilnadu.

Dear Sir,

Thankyou for the info. I was under the assumption that priests of temples under HRCE get a decent amount as monthly salary (of around Rs.5000 a month and double that for performing various rituals like shradham, tharpanam, etc for others).

I think i was wrong in persuming there are no poor TBs in Tamilnadu. There must some way for their children to get a decent education.

The reservations issue became a political one in late-colonial period itself. Now it will be very difficult to expect government help in this regard for whom the focus is "social justice".

But i must mention one thing here sir...despite attacks by DK goons both Iyers and Iyengars maintained very good relationship with NBs. However, when it came to reservations, the better off NBs chose to selectively benefit their own communities.

I found the whole issue of who is "socially backward" very complicated.

Anyways today, hope there are ways thru which betterment is obtained through collective efforts. Like bursaries from the Kerala Iyer Trust. Does KIT support Vaikhanasas and other vaidikis also (or is it restricted to tamil smarthas) ?

 

[happyhindu]

I have a doubt.In this thread we are discussing about the continued status as 'Brahmin' for Brahmin Girls who have married NB boys.
What will be the caste of Brahmins(both Males and females)who have converted themselves as Christians and are they permitted to continue to
call themselves "Brahmin Christians"
In this connection refer to Post no 11 in the thread "beyond symptametic...........infesting Brahmins" under "Sociology" which has a refernce to one particular
website.
Even my friend who was a SV Brahmin but now a christian for the past 25 years has registered himself in this forum as a "Brahmin Christian"

Sir, imo once a person has converted his religion, he cannot claim to belong to any hindu varna. But this is a very interesting point. Wish to see what others say about this. Sangom sir, what do you feel?

 

[sarang]

As usual the GO is vague and open to stretching.
As per this order the SC/ST status of the marriage and that of the children must be accepted by the SC/ST community. If the community feels that their rights and privileges are likely to be affected, the newcomer will become a 'trishanku'.

Quotes:

1. In the GovernmentOrder read above, Government ordered that children born of Inter – Castemarriage shall be considered to be belonging to either the community of thefather or the mother according to the declaration of parents regarding the wayof life in which the children are brought up and that the declaration inrespect of one child will apply to all children.

2. The Government of India in their letter read above have informed that it is the recognition and acceptance by the Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe society of the children born out of a marriage between a member of Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe with an outsider, which is the main determining factor irrespective of, whether the Tribe is matriachal or patriachal and that the final result will always depend on whether the child was accepted as a member of the Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe or not.

Hence, the Government of India have suggested that the Government order read above may be withdrawn and Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe claims of the off-springs of inter-caste married couple may be decided in accordance with the legal position circulated by the Government of India.

3. In modification oforders issued in G.O.Ms.No.477, Social Welfare Department, dated 27.6.75, theGovernment direct that Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe certificates to theoff-springs of inter-caste married couple, where one of the spouses is a memberof Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe community will be issued after verificationof the acceptance given by the members of Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribecommunity living in that area.

Not only that; in TN (and perhaps in all other states also) the choice of SC/ST status for the off-springs of ICMs is dependent upon the way these offsprings are brought up. The rule that they will belong to the father's caste is no longer applicable it seems. Pl.see this:

Government of Tamil Nadu - Government Orders

 

[sangom]

Sir, imo once a person has converted his religion, he cannot claim to belong to any hindu varna. But this is a very interesting point. Wish to see what others say about this. Sangom sir, what do you feel?

SCs and STs who have converted to other religions have been claiming and agitating for their SC/ST status and it seems this has been endorsed in a Supreme Court ruling of 2005. Please see this. The matter seems to be still before the SC.

 

[kunjuppu]

M/s HH has queried as "as to who is poor amongst Brahmin Community".
I can confidently say that there are thousands of Poor brahmin families in Tamilnadu.False prestige and Ego makes them pretend as if they are not poor.One lady aged about 60+ from Vaikasana community(mostly temple priests in Vaishnavite temples) is working in my house in Chennai
for the past 8 years staying with us as a member of our family assisting us in all domestic work.She became a widow at a fairly young age,has three sons working as temple priests in newly established temples in Residential colonies.All the three sons are married.Their monthly salary as temple priest does not exceed Rs.1500 per month.They carry on life with this meagre salary plus 'Thattu collections'.They also participate in
other ceremonies/functions/rituals to supplement the income.They cannot dream of giving decent modern education to their children.They cannot even take leave for long spells without making alternative arrangement.
Their only mistake is they were born in poor brahmin families and not in BC/MBC/ST/SC communities in present day Tamilnadu.

i think, way back, in another, thread, we consensused that about 15% tambrams would be considered 'poor', by our norms. for want of better info, i think, there are sufficient opportunities for us to help at an individual level, to help out a single family each. or we can do it in groups.

poverty knows no caste or religion. but i think the current generation tambrams are paying for their ancestor's sins.

BK, i also agree, that false pride and gauravam plays a large part in these folks' inablility to climb out of the poverty cycle. also unwillingness to relocate and caste prejudice against certain type of work, too, may play a part. my gut feeling.

 

[subbudu1]

but i think the current generation tambrams are paying for their ancestor's sins.

Dear Kunjuppu I strongly disagree with this statement. The fundamental principle behind the anti-caste movement is that birth is an accident. All those who consider this to be true should not be talking about sins of ancestors affecting children. Each person is accountable for his own actions irrespective of his caste or clan.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear subbudu,

I am 100% agreement with you, in that we are a product of accident and should be accountable only for our actions or inactions.

However, we of india born, do have the caste tag. We as Brahmins, are on top of the totem pole, and while today, this may be an albatross, atleast till recently, this Brahmin title endowed on us certain privileges and respect.

This compared to the dalits, who were even outside of manu’s purview, and a whole list of inbetweens.

So, in a way, the whole concept of reservation of jobs, college seats – two primary bones of contention of tambrams, is due to a handmedown cause whose practitioners were our ancestors. We simply cannot get out of the cycle of today’s socio politics by simply absolving ourselves of our inheritance, with a logic, that birth is an accident. That will simply not hold water..

So, it is in this context, I used the word ‘sin’ and not in its traditional meaning. Hope this clarifies. Somewhat.

Interestingly, KRS used to oppose tooth and nail and very vehemently too, the concept of ‘sins of the fathers’ concept of mine. his argument was that the ancestors did no wrong. They lived according to the values of those times, and just because those values are not kosher per today’s standards, it did not mean, that the ancestors’ values were flawed. Which is quite a different pov from that of yours.

Just thought you might be interested in how many different directions, an objection, can come. Maybe there are other reasons too. I don’t know.

 

[Nara]

As usual the GO is vague and open to stretching.

Yes, to say that the community must accept is vague. However, the following you cite is pretty concrete -- the parents get to declare how they raise their children.

So, I now think the long standing claim often made in this forum, that in an icm, children are automatically classified as belonging to the father's caste is not correct. And, Sri Sangom's suggestion to raise the children not as a B is a sensible one.

1. In the GovernmentOrder read above, Government ordered that children born of Inter – Castemarriage shall be considered to be belonging to either the community of thefather or the mother according to the declaration of parents regarding the wayof life in which the children are brought up and that the declaration inrespect of one child will apply to all children.

 

[kunjuppu]

Yes, to say that the community must accept is vague. However, the following you cite is pretty concrete -- the parents get to declare how they raise their children.

So, I now think the long standing claim often made in this forum, that in an icm, children are automatically classified as belonging to the father's caste is not correct. And, Sri Sangom's suggestion to raise the children not as a B is a sensible one.

hopefully all those tambram boys who have married obc or sc girls are aware of this. not from a cheap mercenary viewpoint, but from a viewpoint of choices!!

if these have sons, the sons are going to have prbms finding spouses within the brahmin community, due to dearth of girls and demand for them cutting all castes and religions.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom



Sadly very true isn't it? There is one more side to it also - even if the parents/siblings want to overlook the NB/B difference and accept the girl, they are afraid of what the relatives will say and also afraid that the relatives may outcast them!

So, for them it is better that they outcast their daughter/sister rather than they also becoming an outcast!

Kind regards

True, but the situation is fast changing, imo. There is one instance; TB girl marrying a Xian (Nadar to boot) and her brother marrying a TB girl as per shastra. This would be sister-in-law of the irm girl, was her classmate too and even went out of the way (before her marriage) to assure her in-laws that she would look after her irm-ed sil (naathanaar) as if she was her sister. Now four or five years into the marriage, they do not even talk on phone! Looks like that sil does not want the irm- girl to go to her house (in a metro) and spoil her true-blue Tabra image and standing there!But the parents of the irm-girl treat their children equally nicely.

The feeling of "braahmanathvam" thus harms the younger generation as well.

 

[subbudu1]

So, in a way, the whole concept of reservation of jobs, college seats – two primary bones of contention of tambrams, is due to a handmedown cause whose practitioners were our ancestors. We simply cannot get out of the cycle of today’s socio politics by simply absolving ourselves of our inheritance, with a logic, that birth is an accident. That will simply not hold water..

I believe in a society of utility but economic parity. In my view society should have economic parity cutting across occupations. That is the most important thing.
Then the next thing is utility . How is a person useful to society based on his or her talent. That should determine his occupation. Sounds more like communism. I dont know but with the failure of destined to doom American Model we have to explore on the right implementation of these ideas to create social parity. It is time for sacrifice. It is time we shunned the notion of extravagence. That must reflect in our pay and yes I approve the concept of bargaining for even something as petty as the price of onion for even a difference of a rupee. That keeps the inflation low, we also spend less, our needs are simpler and smaller salaries are sufficient. I have sometimes thought over this question of bargaining and I have realized that I must bargain in the interest of the poor to prevent things from spiraling up.

Let us please look at the society as rich and poor. Anyone poor for more than a generation is severely disadvantaged and his or her children have lot of difficulties. There is this notion of genetic advantage which I think is marginal, since what drives an individual to success is his or her hardwork and they will find some talent in them to do reasonably well in life.

 

[subbudu1]

hopefully all those tambram boys who have married obc or sc girls are aware of this. not from a cheap mercenary viewpoint, but from a viewpoint of choices!!

if these have sons, the sons are going to have prbms finding spouses within the brahmin community, due to dearth of girls and demand for them cutting all castes and religions.

Kunuppu I have a strange theory since I have observed in urban India that in last five years more and more girls are being born in comparison to boys. I am having a doubt whether it has do with the lowering of sperm count as it seems that the only to be female sperms have longer life in the body. The male has less life it seems and the count going down may be pushing things in this direction. I have no statistics to back me.

But the story in urban India 20 years from now is going to be tospy turvy.

 

[Nara]

...Just because the people who started the system were above petty political interests, it does not mean that today it is not being abused.

Indeed I may be lagging behind, and indeed I may not have properly understood you position on reservation. Be that as it may, your statement "The idea is to provide exclusive benefits to certain sections" sounded like the whole idea of reservation was motivated by electoral politics.

If your are not opposed to the very idea of reservation as was put in place by the founders of our republic, then, for that agreement I am thankful.

Parties try to neutralize any advantage gained by others by merely joining the

This is inevitable in a democracy. The constitution does provide protection for oppressed minorities against the tyranny of majority, the Achilles heal of democracy. However, the reservation system, liked by a vast majority of the electorate, and approved by the judiciary as to its constitutionality, is widely hailed as a fair one. Those who feel it is not have the right to say so, but few share their disapproval. Like it or not, that is just the way it is in a constitutional democracy.

The question is how does a cultural asset help a poor brahmin or an FC pay his fees for education?

Another name for cultural asset is the so called sampradayam. All Brahmins share this tradition. To teach brahmin kids to read and write is like feeding them milk. Not so until recently for BC/Dalit. Rich or poor, all brahmin kids will have many to all their relatives reasonably well-educated and having respectable jobs. Not so for BC/Dalit even today. Right from young age, in Brahmin households education is stressed and even forcefed. Not so for most BC/Dalit. Going to college for a Brahmin kid is the default option after +2, only rare exceptions opt not to. Not so for BC/Dalit even if they are toppers -- last year there was a Dalit student at the top of selection list for medical school who was on the verge of not being enroll due to poverty.

This cultural advantage did not come about in a benign way. Over centuries the BC/Dalit were forbidden from education and they were made to feel they are unfit for it. For centuries, the Brahmins lived off the labor of these BC/Dalit, which meant they had lot of leisure time to go after intellectual pursuits. So, this cultural asset accumulated over centuries is an illegitimate property built on the sweat and exploitation of BC/Dalit.

It is the solemn duty of our government to try to even the playing field by extending reservation and monetary assistance to the long oppressed. Many brahmins may see this as unfair discrimination against them, but not many outside of brahmin community share that view.

If, as Nara claims, the percentage of poor FCs are very low and considering that the population of FCs is also very low, what is the need to keep such a minuscule percentage out of such benefits?

Well KB, the reason is quite simple, I am surprised you are not seeing it.

The number of seats available for much coveted fields is in thousands. Even at 3%, the Brahmins constitute more than 21 lakhs. Of this, if we assume 5% are of college age we are at 1 lakh brahmins students. Due to the cultural advantages the B students enjoy they are well prepared to do well in the type of tests used to measure "merit" for the purpose of college selection. So, sans reservation, the BC/Dalit students will be at a great disadvantage.

BTW, KB, you have nicely diverted the point about fairness into one of what is the big deal, kudos. Let me restate what the original issue was, at 3% of population TBs get to compete for 31% of available seats, and that seems imminently fair to me.

... Bringing dalits into equation to also defend exclusive benefits provided to OBCs or minorities is a sham.

KB, in this discussion you used the term FC instead of TB, would that indicate a sort of vested interest you are talking about?

Government has defined strict criteria for classification purposes. Among them are economic condition and educational penetration. You may claim the government is not implementing these rules properly. For anyone to take your charge seriously you must provide proper evidence.

I don't doubt that there are many among the OBC (i.e. BC+MBC?) who don't deserve benefits of reservation. But, without supporting data one cannot simply assume how big a problem this is. Caste based census, one which many TBs inexplicably opposed tooth and ail, may provide some clue. Other NGOs sympathetic to FC issues can take up a study and provide some solid evidence.

Cheers!