Brahmin (NB?) girls!!

[Yamaka]

Share:

Facebook X (Twitter) LinkedIn WhatsApp Email Share Link

Dear ALL:

From the debate going on here and on "Reservation" Thread, I come to know of the so-called "Creamy Layer" (as defined by "rich or affordable people" among SC/ST/MBC).

This Creamy Layer has been nagging me for quite some time whenever I think of SC/ST/MBC.

My questions are

1. Is this Creamy Layer real? Or a fiction manufactured by the anti-Reservation people?

2. If it is REAL, then what % of SC/ST/MBC belong to this Layers?

I can imagine that there may be Creamy Layer of substantial quantity (about 25% of the total BC) among BC... but I have difficulty imagining it among the SC/ST/MBC..

Please illuminate me!

Thanks

Y

 

[sarang]

poverty knows no caste or religion. but i think the current generation tambrams are paying for their ancestor's sins.

BK, i also agree, that false pride and gauravam plays a large part in these folks' inablility to climb out of the poverty cycle. also unwillingness to relocate and caste prejudice against certain type of work, too, may play a part. my gut feeling.

Till the muslims and christian british arrived on the scene, all brahmins were held in high esteem by the kings and the people. Most of them lived a simple and austere life. It is not only unparliamentary but untrue to say that today's poor brahmins are paying for their ancestors' sins. Does it automatically follow that today's rich brahmins have pure and sinless ancestors. The logic and conclusions are difficult to comprehend. Perhaps one reading of relevant pages of 'deivathin kural' will help in better understanding of the issue.

Brahmins have never indulged in violence; brahmins were murdered in srirangam, mandya iyengars were murdered by tippu and goan brahmins were murdered by portugese. Not one instance such violence against brahmins by any hindu community can be cited. If brahmins are so vile, they would not have survived for so long.

The silver lining is - majority of NB population still respect brahmins despite venomous propaganda by politicians and rationalists. The present generation of 20 to 40 age group brahmins are wise and will definitely adopt more of traditional practices.

 

[sarang]

Affirmative action and creating surplus in schools and colleges would have yielded better results. Creating surplus seats in all disciplines - engineering, medical, arts and sciences - to ensure admission for all irrespective of marks or economic status would have made the field level. One drawback not highlighted by many is that all sc/st candidates do not get admission because of limited seats for each category.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

KB, in this discussion you used the term FC instead of TB, would that indicate a sort of vested interest you are talking about?

The case for reservation for dalits is fundamentally different from that of BCs. The situation that dalits had to go through is not comparable to that of BCs. While reservation can be provided to dalits solely based on caste, the same cannot be done for BCs. Communities classified under OBC have to meet certain criteria - social, educational and economic backwardness. Hence, arguments made against improper classification/ implementation of OBC reservation cannot be dismissed citing the plight of dalits. Exclusive benefits such as loan subsidies or scholarships provided to OBCs or minorities cannot be justified only because it is also provided to dalits. It cannot be also argued that if reservation for one group is fair, all types reservations are fair. Treatment of dalits is often cited to defend reservation system as a whole. That is vested interest especially considering the fact that the very same communities classified as OBCs are involved in such treatment of dalits.

There is no vested interest in my usage of the term FC instead of TB because as far as this exclusive benefit of loan subsidy is concerned, all FCs are excluded.

So, sans reservation, the BC/Dalit students will be at a great disadvantage.

Once again, BCs and dalits are grouped here in this argument, which is simply untenable.

In TN, OBCs have been cornering a significant majority of professional education seats (more than 80%) in open quota for several years now. Refer to my posts in Aarakshan thread. So your blanket argument that sans reservation, BC students will be at a great disadvantage does not fly.

Government has defined strict criteria for classification purposes. Among them are economic condition and educational penetration. You may claim the government is not implementing these rules properly. For anyone to take your charge seriously you must provide proper evidence.

The same arguments were made by HH in Aarakshan thread.

[This reminds me of the defense put forth by the corrupt media in connection with the now notorious 2G scam. When these media were asked why they failed to give even nominal coverage to this very important issue, their defense was that they needed clinching evidence, while there was plenty of reasons to doubt the veracity of claims made by UPA-I govt. These people, perhaps, have never heard of investigative journalism].

It is the duty of the government to collect and maintain data concerning the backwardness of different communities. Providing blanket reservation for more than 10 years without any monitoring and scrutiny is considered unconstitutional. When asked to provide a reference to such data (data on individual castes), HH was unable to do so. It is not her fault. The data was not there simply because either the govt never collected it or it hid the data from public space.

Please keep in mind that the claims regarding improper implementation of OBC reservation are not arbitrary. These claims are based on the findings of Sattanathan and Ambashankar commission and also data available to us regarding the percentage of open quota seats cornered by communities classified as BC and MBC.

I don't doubt that there are many among the OBC (i.e. BC+MBC?) who don't deserve benefits of reservation. But, without supporting data one cannot simply assume how big a problem this is.

I will ask the same question that I asked HH. A community that dominates open quota, if provided reservation, will easily dominate reserved quota. Do you agree or not? If yes, juxtapose this info on top of the fact that OBCs already qualify for a large percentage of open quota seats and have been doing so for several years.

Now there can be two scenarios.

A) Only few communities among OBCs dominate. Based on the findings of Sattanathan and Ambashankar commissions, this is the likely scenario. Excluding these communities will benefit the truly backward ones.

B) There is no domination by few communities. All communities share the spoils. If this were to be true, then the whole classification is subject to scrunity because the literacy levels of these communities is likely to have risen closer to the average literacy levels.

Either way, the current classification is suspect and claims that only 12% of TN population is NOT backward will prove to be bogus.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Reference to post no 51 by Thiru.Yamaka,
Late Shri.Jagjivan Ram from S/C community was occupying high position and status in free India.His daughter Smt.Meira Kumar was in Indian Foreign Serviceand now present speaker of LOK sabha.Do the sons/daughters/grand sons/grand daughters of this familyrequire reservation benefits or a normal S/c family with humble background.
I had a boss from S/c community in 1972.He was an engineer and entered Indian Telecommunication Service through reservation quota.His father in law was a congress MP from Nellore,Andhra during that period.So my boss had lot of political patronage.He could become member of AITEC which has authority to give approvals for opening Engineering Colleges in India.I read in newspapers that he was taken into custody by CBI for accepting huge amounts to give approval for new Engineering colleges.Whether his sons/daughters are to be given preference over a S/C student from humble background.
Ps.I used to observe in 1972 that he was most unsympathetic with his own community people who used to appear before us(MY Boss,Self and another officer were in a Committe) for selecting casual workers with 240 days of daily work experience as 'Linemen' for the telecommunications department.
Why a rule should not be brought that families who have enjoyed the privileges
for three generations are not eligible to have the benefit of reservations for entering services,so that other poor deserving families get opportunity.

 

[Nara]

Affirmative action and creating surplus in schools and colleges would have yielded better results. Creating surplus seats in all disciplines - engineering, medical, arts and sciences - .

sarang, some 30 years ago, there were about a dozen engineering colleges in all of Tamil Nadu with about 2000 or so students joining every year. Today we have some 300 engineering colleges with a capacity of 80,000 students per year of which 10,000 go unfilled. Except for Medicine, which requires enormous outlays, no other field suffers from lack of capacity.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... Smt.Meira Kumar was in Indian Foreign Serviceand now present speaker of LOK sabha.Do the sons/daughters/grand sons/grand daughters of this familyrequire reservation benefits or a normal S/c family with humble background..

BK sir, policy cannot be formulated based on a few isolated cases. It has to be based on reliable and broad based data. There was an article sometime back that Shri KRS cited, about which we had some disagreement, that showed, with solid data, that the enrollment and graduation rate gap between SC/ST and FC was more or less the same in all economic layers. The authors concluded that creating a "creamy layer" among SC/ST and withdrawing concessions is counterproductive.

Of course, you are welcome to disagree with this conclusion by providing cogent arguments. However, it is not as obvious as citing a few high-flying examples.

Cheers!

 

[subbudu1]

BK sir, policy cannot be formulated based on a few isolated cases. It has to be based on reliable and broad based data. There was an article sometime back that Shri KRS cited, about which we had some disagreement, that showed, with solid data, that the enrollment and graduation rate gap between SC/ST and FC was more or less the same in all economic layers. The authors concluded that creating a "creamy layer" among SC/ST and withdrawing concessions is counterproductive.

Of course, you are welcome to disagree with this conclusion by providing cogent arguments. However, it is not as obvious as citing a few high-flying examples.

Cheers!

Nara let us understand that disadvantage is caused by poverty and family circumstances which can further affect a person if he is a dalit. But has there been a research on the discrimination faced by middle class dalits. The question is not what percentage of dalits are poor. The question is the poor are disadvantaged. Human behavior follows a pattern determined by social circumstances. I will not qualify good behavior to dalit just because he is a dalit and bad behaviour to a B just because he is a B. There are multiple reasons for a social behavior. We cannnot expect many people who are benefited from reservation to ever give it up for the poorer. This reservation will end up a long term binding on society until the existing poor rise in revolt.

However reservation based on poverty is necessary. In addition we can have qualifications based on social inequality suffered and another qualification based on educational drawback. I have said this earlier. This seems to be the only solution to force equality in a greedy, corrupt , opportunistic society. There is no need for people to fear as dalits are more like to satisfy all three qualifications-educational backwardness, poverty and social inequality.

Is it difficult to determine poverty. I dont think so every one who is capable of paying tax is tracked against the PAN atleast. All those who dont qualify by a PAN Card are basically poor. In addition we can have occupation certificate to be issued by employers. I think the effort is on to get all these details on to a single card for every citizen. This should take care. It is not as difficult as local administrators have sufficient access to verify information of all people in their place.
Cheating can be made a highly punishable offence, causing deterrence.

The basic problem is lack of desire to solve this inequality issue and it is more about vote bank politics.

 

[Nara]

KB, I really appreciate the tone and content of your answers, a rarity.

... Treatment of dalits is often cited to defend reservation system as a whole. That is vested interest especially considering the fact that the very same communities classified as OBCs are involved in such treatment of dalits.

I agree with your observation, but not with the vested interest part. OBCs being the direct tormentors of Dalits by itself does not make them undeserving of reservation and neither does it release the FCs of their responsibility, which IMO is more crucial and fundamental because it was their intellectual support and justification that perpetuated this abuse. But, that is a different topic. Anyway, I accept your objection that Dalit must not be clubbed with BC or OBC, and I will refrain from doing so.

In TN, OBCs have been cornering a significant majority of professional education seats (more than 80%) in open quota for several years now. Refer to my posts in Aarakshan thread. So your blanket argument that sans reservation, BC students will be at a great disadvantage does not fly.

This cannot be simply asserted. OBC, which in TN is BC+MBC (?) consists of many caste groups. Your objection will be valid only if a small number of caste groups under OBC corners a large part of the open quota, in which case, this small group of OBC must be declared FC. The remedy is not to eliminate the entire category of OBC.

It is the duty of the government to collect and maintain data concerning the backwardness of different communities. [..] The data was not there simply because either the govt never collected it or it hid the data from public space.

Yes, I agree. Are you sure such data is not available in the public domain? Broad data is definitely available, I have myself seen them, but I am not sure whether data broken down by caste groups within OBC, and the extent to which each caste fulfills the Mundal commission criteria is available. I think NGOs can step up in this regard. Governments only act when they are made to, that is just the way it is.

I will ask the same question that I asked HH. A community that dominates open quota, if provided reservation, will easily dominate reserved quota. Do you agree or not? If yes, juxtapose this info on top of the fact that OBCs already qualify for a large percentage of open quota seats and have been doing so for several years.

Yes, I do agree with your logic, but, as I noted earlier, OBC is a very large group, not all are equal. I cannot support complete elimination of OBC, in stead, I can support reclassification of some of the dominant OBCs, but as you and I know, that is unfortunately a political question. This is where NGOs can seek remedy from the courts.

A) Only few communities among OBCs dominate. [....]

B) There is no domination by few communities. [.....]

Either way, the current classification is suspect and claims that only 12% of TN population is NOT backward will prove to be bogus.

Between A and B, A makes sense. Your observation about "12% of TN population is NOT backward will prove to be bogus", is speculative. If I am allowed similar speculation, I would say, this 12% was probably not far fetched before the dravidian parties came to power. It is due to the very system you are criticizing that this percentage is probably much larger now.

KB, I agree with many points you have raised. I do have some disagreements. On the whole, I think the system that has made Tamil Nadu progress so phenomenally, must not be meddled with without solid data. If such data is not available or being suppressed, then it is up to NGOs to get remedy from the courts. Are there any NGOs, or political parties that will come forward to do this?

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

... The question is not what percentage of dalits are poor. The question is the poor are disadvantaged.

Dear subbudu sir, I think poverty is a curse, regardless of caste. But, I think the effects of poverty among the Dalits and other oppressed peoples are by many magnitude more severe than the socially advantaged FC. The opportunities to make a subsistence living for FCs is far greater than for Dalits. A liberal democratic government must take this into account in formualting public policy.

This reservation will end up a long term binding on society until the existing poor rise in revolt.

India is becoming increasingly affluent to be able to afford serious think-tanks that can pursue serious research and shape public policy based on reliable data than mere emotion. In the U.S. we have both conservative and liberal think-tanks dedicated to research and education. This is the only way to set the national agenda. If it is left to political parties we will only find the shortest path to the least common denominator.

There is no need for people to fear as dalits are more like to satisfy all three qualifications-educational backwardness, poverty and social inequality.

It is not only dalits who were oppressed. The hierarchical caste system and the resulting structure of privilege and oppression is a sliding scale from Brahmins at the top and the Dalits at the bottom. This means the inequities do not fall neatly into binary groupings.

In any case, public policy has to make a choice from (i) strictly economic consideration, (ii) strictly social consideration, or (iii) a combination of the two. The Mandal Commission has given as a formula based on solid data and research. To refute their recommendation we need persuasive research data and analysis.

All those who dont qualify by a PAN Card are basically poor.

Once again, economic poverty is not the only impediment to progress. Compared to a poverty stricken BC, let alone Dalit (h/t KB), a poor FC has many avenues and opportunities to succeed based only on his/her social standing. Therefore, basing reservation benefits on economic criteria alone will be a disservice to the BCs, not to mention Dalits.

The basic problem is lack of desire to solve this inequality issue and it is more about vote bank politics.

Vote bank politics is unavoidable in a liberal democracy. If Anna Hazare is any indication, for any significant change one has to shape favorable public opinion.

Cheers!