Brahminical conundrum: Tradition vs Modernity

[KRS]

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Sri usaiyer Sir,

Because you asked, let me tell you a few things I have done, according to my mental makeup and inclination, since the Bhagawan’s grace fell on me. I read everything I could read about him, and works by him. I visited Ramanashramam a few times. Now I keep his teachings in front of me, rarely goes a day without me reading something related to him.

A few things to consider if you do not know much about the Bhagwan. There is an excellent YouTube video about his life. There are numerous books available on Amazon, and a particular one ‘Talks with Ramana Maharishi’, has helped me a lot. Of recent vintage are several YouTube videos by one David Godman, who was called by the Bhagwan, similarly like me. But, you will find him very erudite and expressive, unlike me.

There are many disciples of the Bhagwan from the West who have started what are called as ‘Satsangs’. Some of them in recent years have proved to be not vert good for spiritual development. Bhagwan always said that there is no lineage after him in terms of Parampara and so I believe in that. So, I do not take part in any group activities relating to him.

I started then on the path of being conscious of my thinking and resulting actions. It was an overt effort. My starting point was practicing Ahimsa in both thoughts and actions, most importantly on my words and actions. It has taken me a few years to consistently doing this, now it has become automatic; my mind checks out these without me being conscious. So, last couple of years, I am now conscious about the thoughts occurring in my mind. Rarely nowadays, I let my mind continue on a stream of unwanted thoughts. But, this is quite difficult, as I still get angry at times, though infrequently.

Now, I believe such a control of mind and actions is slowly but surely leading me to the root, my ahamkara. To me, this is how I apply my Guru’s technique, and instructions on ‘Who am I?’ and ‘Be as you are’, and it is working.

This is how I look inward everyday. I do not do overt meditation, it has not worked for me and I pray when my mind seeks to pray. This has been spontaneous, sudden urges to do so.

I guess my spiritual seeking include a mix of all four yogas, as one must use a cocktail of a mixture that works for one. Hope this helps.

 

[renuka]

Sri usaiyer Sir,

Because you asked, let me tell you a few things I have done, according to my mental makeup and inclination, since the Bhagawan’s grace fell on me. I read everything I could read about him, and works by him. I visited Ramanashramam a few times. Now I keep his teachings in front of me, rarely goes a day without me reading something related to him.

A few things to consider if you do not know much about the Bhagwan. There is an excellent YouTube video about his life. There are numerous books available on Amazon, and a particular one ‘Talks with Ramana Maharishi’, has helped me a lot. Of recent vintage are several YouTube videos by one David Godman, who was called by the Bhagwan, similarly like me. But, you will find him very erudite and expressive, unlike me.

There are many disciples of the Bhagwan from the West who have started what are called as ‘Satsangs’. Some of them in recent years have proved to be not vert good for spiritual development. Bhagwan always said that there is no lineage after him in terms of Parampara and so I believe in that. So, I do not take part in any group activities relating to him.

I started then on the path of being conscious of my thinking and resulting actions. It was an overt effort. My starting point was practicing Ahimsa in both thoughts and actions, most importantly on my words and actions. It has taken me a few years to consistently doing this, now it has become automatic; my mind checks out these without me being conscious. So, last couple of years, I am now conscious about the thoughts occurring in my mind. Rarely nowadays, I let my mind continue on a stream of unwanted thoughts. But, this is quite difficult, as I still get angry at times, though infrequently.

Now, I believe such a control of mind and actions is slowly but surely leading me to the root, my ahamkara. To me, this is how I apply my Guru’s technique, and instructions on ‘Who am I?’ and ‘Be as you are’, and it is working.

This is how I look inward everyday. I do not do overt meditation, it has not worked for me and I pray when my mind seeks to pray. This has been spontaneous, sudden urges to do so.

I guess my spiritual seeking include a mix of all four yogas, as one must use a cocktail of a mixture that works for one. Hope this helps.

Dear KRS ji,
About the satsangs you are talking about...I used to just hang around some pages online where people got together for " satsang" and as you said at times it might not be conducive but at the same time it might be conducive for another person.

I left all online pages and I only hang out in TB forum here cos its fun and neutral mostly.

Lots of people need different messages and I found that sometimes hanging out in a satsang not conducive for me might actually do damage to others because views might differ and it wont be fair to impose my views on them and it wont be fair for me to accept general views of others( when i say views here i dont mean rigid thoughts but I mean the personalized customized perception each one of us has which I feel differs from person to person)

Finally its like baby birds..we need to fly on our own from a common nest.

I dont meditate either..never tried..but I pray at the prescribed times and it has become the new norm to follow the timings ..not that its rigidly compulsory or i force myself but i started following prayer timings because I asked myself.." prayer is an appointment with God/ Devata/ Universal Consciousness ...we tend to at times delay it or pray when we feel like it..that is we dont mind being late for the appointment or be a no show..but in real life at a human level we would keep all appointments when we meet up with a friend or a vaccination date or even with a doctor or a VIP....I then felt I should treat prayer appointments with the same feeling too of not wanting to be late..


The prescribe timings of prayer be it 3x or 5x a day are related to a transition in our circardian rhythm and this is where the mind actually gets a bit agitated and brain waves pattern change and we make a smoother transition if we fill that transition with prayer..its all about maintaining that Eka Grata( one pointedness) 24/7 which is in fact meditation itself sans the need for any specific kriyas or kundalini activation.

 

[KRS]

Srimathi Dr. Renuka Ji,

I do not know how much knowledge Sri usaiyer Sir has on the Bhagawan and so I tried to give a very broad overview.

I did not mean Satsangs are all bad. In fact, it is one of the requirements for our spiritual pursuit. The way Bhagawan teaches, it is easy for anyone to imbibe the words and repeat them, thinking they are doing good. But only the words from a Janani hold the Truth. Especially, in this case, a movement that people term as ‘neo vedantha’ is prevalent in the west. So, many folks do think that Bhagawan taught ‘Hinduism made easy’ and think that one does not need to understand Hinduism at all. Such thinking, in my opinion, lead some people not to grasp the concepts of Vedanta fundamentals. I have seen this, and some of them then do a mish mash of different concepts without synchrony and teach. So this is what I am referring to regarding some Satsangs oriented towards Bhagwan‘s teachings.

So, my Satsangs involve taking vedic courses from a qualified reputed teacher (Gita and Upanisheds) and readings and video.

Also, because of my advaitha background and my family Gurus come from Adi Shankara lineage, I think I had a leg up in understanding the Bhagawan teachings. Only a few years ago, I learnt from my mom that my dad followed the Bhagawan (He passed away when I was five)!

I am glad you are doing your Sadhana. There comes a time,when one should get the grace from a Guru to assist one to pull oneself inside, whoever that Guru is. Gurus come in various forms.

Thank you. Cheers.

 

[a-TB]

Sri usaiyer Sir,

Because you asked, let me tell you a few things I have done, according to my mental makeup and inclination, since the Bhagawan’s grace fell on me. I read everything I could read about him, and works by him. I visited Ramanashramam a few times. Now I keep his teachings in front of me, rarely goes a day without me reading something related to him.

A few things to consider if you do not know much about the Bhagwan. There is an excellent YouTube video about his life. There are numerous books available on Amazon, and a particular one ‘Talks with Ramana Maharishi’, has helped me a lot. Of recent vintage are several YouTube videos by one David Godman, who was called by the Bhagwan, similarly like me. But, you will find him very erudite and expressive, unlike me.

There are many disciples of the Bhagwan from the West who have started what are called as ‘Satsangs’. Some of them in recent years have proved to be not vert good for spiritual development. Bhagwan always said that there is no lineage after him in terms of Parampara and so I believe in that. So, I do not take part in any group activities relating to him.

I started then on the path of being conscious of my thinking and resulting actions. It was an overt effort. My starting point was practicing Ahimsa in both thoughts and actions, most importantly on my words and actions. It has taken me a few years to consistently doing this, now it has become automatic; my mind checks out these without me being conscious. So, last couple of years, I am now conscious about the thoughts occurring in my mind. Rarely nowadays, I let my mind continue on a stream of unwanted thoughts. But, this is quite difficult, as I still get angry at times, though infrequently.

Now, I believe such a control of mind and actions is slowly but surely leading me to the root, my ahamkara. To me, this is how I apply my Guru’s technique, and instructions on ‘Who am I?’ and ‘Be as you are’, and it is working.

This is how I look inward everyday. I do not do overt meditation, it has not worked for me and I pray when my mind seeks to pray. This has been spontaneous, sudden urges to do so.

I guess my spiritual seeking include a mix of all four yogas, as one must use a cocktail of a mixture that works for one. Hope this helps.

Shraddha can make all the difference. There cannot be many paths per se to the truth but in preparations there could be I suppose.

 

[a-TB]

Sri a-TB Sir,

I remember Sri Sangom Sir as a very knowledgeable person and inclined towards an ethics based religion. I got the impression that he was partial to Buddhism, as he did not believe in the Hindu concept of Brahman.

To me Ahimsa at the edges is very blurry. One can not expect a person near the North Pole to be a vegetarian. I do not judge others on practices that do not concern me, as long as they are not illegal. Even then, if they affect me, then I tend to take actions to counter, if warranted.

Otherwise, As my Guru advises, I focus on myself in a ‘selful’, way and leave everything else to Ishwara.

Yes, I think the hardest part is not to hurt others even by words. But once you consciously practice it, you will find that your mind automatically starts thinking about stopping thoughts that evoke such words/actions. This is a difficult process as your mind slips up often.

Regarding ‘who am I?’, it is a well known fact that if one is part of a closed system, one can not understand what is outside. But, we know from our experience that mystics in almost all religions who turned inwards have told us that they have the experience of ‘that’. They told us that we also can ‘know it’ if we practice certain ways to control our minds. I just chose a path that is appealing and attractive to me. I can not claim that it will work for anybody else. For me, even if I do not experience ‘that’ it is well worth it.

Dear Mr KRS

Just catching up on the thread and hence delay in responding.

Yes, Mr Sangom relished in providing challenging posts that evoked responses of one kind or the other. He insisted on logic and yet was an ardent believer in Astrology (which I am not).

Is Brahman that cannot be expressed in words and cannot be conceived by mind an entity to be believed. So one person says "I believe in something that cannot be expressed in words and cannot be imagined". So can the word believe be associated with Brahman.

Even if it is a belief, in what way it is superior to any other belief. There are all kinds of beliefs and they all are not subject to logic by very definition of belief.

You have talked about Bhagavan Ramana Maharishi . It seems the query of who am I is more concrete though there is no answer possible from what I gather.

 

[KRS]

Shraddha can make all the difference. There cannot be many paths per se to the truth but in preparations there could be I suppose.

Sri a-TB Sir,

I do not understand your first statement. What do you mean by ‘Shraddha’? And why it can ‘make all the difference’, before I respond to both of your postings with full understanding of your views. Thanks.

 

[a-TB]

Sri a-TB Sir,

I do not understand your first statement. What do you mean by ‘Shraddha’? And why it can ‘make all the difference’, before I respond to both of your postings with full understanding of your views. Thanks.

Dear Mr KRS Sir,


What I understand by Shraddha is that it is a conditional faith and not blind faith. For example if I undertake a study to get job and earn a salary, I have to invest some time and energy. While there may be some data to support and some advice by others , ultimately I have to have some initial faith to expend the energy.

We live in a world where there are no final answers to anything. With incomplete information we make decisions. Ultimately the faith pays off or not. If not, that faith has to be abandoned. That would be rational, but most people hold onto their beliefs as it is tied to their ego identity.

Unfortunately in the area of Astrology and even superstitious practices human mind plays tricks and ensure it sees relationships that is not there. There are objective ways to make sure if there is true correlation and if it is even connected to causation.

But such studies do not exist in the domain of Astrology because ultimately it is all an anecdotes based beliefs. Astrolgy's starting point is a geo centric model (and not helio centric model). There are far too many variables that Science methods will not apply and hence no one takes up that.

Even Advita concepts are taken in the same manner judging by the kind of statements made in the internet by people. It becomes another belief system - I believe in something that cannot be expressed in words and cannot have mental models. Yet I will talk about it as if it is another vegetable I know about LOL

With these statements above my understanding of the word Shraddha is a quest to know the ultimate truth.

Have read that in Gita there is a teaching that one with Shraddha will gain the truth. Hence such an unwavering commitment to know the truth will lead to truth and hence can 'make all the difference' . It will help one to drop wrong 'paths' and even have a clearer objective


Again am not an expert at anything. While logic is not the main focus, whatever is taught has to NOT contradict logic. Otherwise teaching is not possible, It will be just another religion to be believed

I think our scriptures aimed at teaching . Just saying certain things cannot be understood is unsatisfactory because then it could be said right away and not invent new words at all as though to explain .

I did not see your response here until you reminded me in the other thread,

 

[KRS]

Sri a-TB Sir,

Okay, I Understand. I will leave discussion of Shraddha to some other time. I think our discussions in the other thread may also cover it.

Regarding, astrology, I do not know how much you are familiar with Vedic astrology. For myself, something propelled me at a very young age to study Vedic astrology. Since then it has been a lifelong hobby, I am what would you call as an amateur astrologer.

Now, as I grew up and studied Physics, I noticed that my fellow scientists had a very low opinion about it, as in their view, it was mumbo jumbo, without even knowing what it is, how it is formulated, and it’s structure. But I had different views, awestruck at it’s structure and discipline.

Medicine, as it was practiced and as it is even today is an art/science discipline. Diagnostics was an absolute art in the yester years and less so in modern times with all the diagnostic tools. But, it is still an art, dependent on the practitioner to draw upon his knowledge and experience to diagnose. But even then, we are advised to seek second opinions. Same is true for therapeutics. Medicines work differently on different folks, efficacy is not the same for everyone across the human spectrum. Yet, today it is practiced under the rubric of Medical Sciences as it should be. Because lots of it is empirical, drawing conclusions based on statistics and bell curves.

Now, Vedic astrology, in my opinion, is very similar. It is based on the exact movements of planets in Solar system, at the time of one’s birth, movements thereafter through out one’s life, different planets signifying different aspects of one’s life. This is all done with respect to the whole Solar system revolving around the zodiac, with distant stars influencing the system.

Around these mathematical calculations, are rules there voluminous to cover all the permutations and combinations of this complex system, yet, arranged in a systematic way for one to learn and start practicing, while learning more advanced topics, that fine tune the accuracy of the practice.

As an amateur, I am still practicing this art/science with reverence, finding that my predictions are about 75 to 80% proven to be correct.

Now how can one say that distant planets affect a person’s life on earth? But the discipline if practiced properly tells one just that. We do not know why, that’s all. Astrology belongs in the meta physical realm, not in the physical realm, though it uses physical movements of the planets that are physical bodies.

Because I know the discipline I know it is not something based on ‘mooda nambikkai’, because it works based on rules and data. Thanks.

 

[Krishnan.vp]

I live abroad, I am not a conformist and never was.
I was involved in our town Temple building financially as well as physically.
I was chairman of the board and raised $4m for this effort. I have been religious committee chairman etc.
I attend the Chinmaya group since I was a 20-year-old College student.

But never lived in Tamil Nadu and having grown up in a cosmopolitan town, and in a financially successful family, my upbringing is different than average TB.
So I do not have any hangups. I am a TB and I have no shame in being one. On the contrary, I am proud of my values.

I am sorry that you feel that I am a beggar, but that is your mistake.
I am financially successful and happily settled with myself.

Hi,

Very interesting .. so you did not grow up in India or where did you grow up in India? When did u move abroad

I am happy to know someone who has been a chairman of a temple board..

Cheers..

 

[prasad1]

Let us say that we accept Earth is at the center of a two-dimensional universe. All the rigid calculations prove nothing.
The nakshatras are basically a 2-dimensional representation of a 4-dimensional Universe.


They could be made up of stars of various sizes and ages, separated by light-years in all three different planes, This mythical shape is only earth-centric and from another galaxy, it will not look similar

Is there a point when your premise is so wrong?
What is the point of precise calculation if the basis is wrong?

1+ 1 = 2 (on the basis that we are dealing in a decimal system), but it will be the wrong answer in a binary system.

The answer should be 1+1 = 10 (in a binary system).
So all the precise calculations mean nothing.

 

[prasad1]

B.V. Raman (1912–1998), publisher-editor of The Astrological Magazine, wrote that “when Saturn was in Aries in 1939 England had to declare war against Germany” (note the fatalism) in a work intended “to present a case for astrology” (Raman 1992, 119). However, this reasoning fails to notice that Saturn was also in Aries in 1909 and 1968 when nothing much happened other than overseas state visits by Edward VII and Elizabeth II, respectively.

Indian astrologers often make extreme claims about Indian astronomy, as when The Astrological Magazine for March 1984 claimed Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto had been discovered around 500 BC (Rao 2000, 36). But their claims about Indian astrology tend to be even more extreme, as on August 25, 2003, Indian Express wherein Raj Baldev, who claimed to be “an authority on the subject of Astronomy, Astrology, Cosmo-Mathematics, and Metaphysics” said that ancient Hindu astrology “is a complete science” where even one million billionths of a second “makes a lot of difference.” Skeptics might wonder at this since it implies that the shadows cast on ancient sundials were routinely positioned to better accuracy than a hundred millionth of the diameter of an atom. Even at night. Can we believe it?

An Indian Test of Indian Astrology | Skeptical Inquirer

Indian astrologers claim they can tell a person’s intelligence from his or her horoscope. But twenty-seven astrologers failed to perform better than chance ...

skepticalinquirer.org

Astrology claims to be the study of zodiac signs and star alignment language. However, no one questions where the information comes from or why looking at a personal horoscope can make complete sense, but so can reading a description for another sign.

Horoscopes are supposed to be the foretelling of a person’s life and the natural world based on the relative positions of stars and planets. The problem is horoscopes are so general they could relate to absolutely anyone, discrediting the whole system.

People should feel encouraged to believe in anything that soothes or comforts the soul, but astrology is not the entity to look toward. It is a joke and believers are the punchlines.

Society needs to understand astrology carries nothing of value or truth. Individuals tend to believe in enough nonsense; do not add astrology to the list

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri prasad1 Ji,

I do not usually respond to posts that are not addressed directly to me, on the topics I posted. But, I must reply as both of your above posts here leave impressions that may be misunderstood by many.

1. You say that in your first post, when the assumption is wrong, the accuracy of the resulting data is wrong. Sir, I presume that the assumption of Vedic astrology that people on earth are affected by both Nakshtras and planets Is what you mean. I do not fully understand your reasoning to question this assumption. But, let me tell you, the assumption is validated by the results, not the other way around. Vedic astrology is centered on earth, because it is about people living on earth. I think you are associated with a Hindu temple. Do you know, there is no old Indian temple without the Nava Graham’s, including Rahu. and Kethu? They are not real celestial bodies, but shadows of earth, from the light of Sun on earth. This is used in our temples because of the sixth limb of the Vedas, the Vedangas, Vedic astrology are ‘eyes’ of the limbs of Vedas.

Do you believe in the Hindu Dharma and Karma or not? Because, your horoscope when you are born (planatory positions at your exact time of birth, and place), is nothing but your prarabdha karma phala to be experienced in this life.

I do not know whether you have read, Maha Periaval’s book ’Hindu Dharma’. Your name suggests you are a Smartha, and as such he was your Guru. Please read the above book to understand our religion, and why Vedic astrology is not riff-raff.

2. In your second post (I do not know whether it is your thought or you copied and posted), you talk about Sri B. V. Raman’s 1939 prediction and without giving the full context of what he was saying. Do you really believe such a renowned person would make such a simplistic statement about Saturn? The comment shows an utter lack of understanding of the Vedic astrology fundamentals. Planets, of course move around with respect to earth, and they are all in the same sign after a few years. For example. Saturn, is in the same sign every 30 years. Other planets have different rotational times. This affect the horoscopes of everyone (including nations, according to their birth times). So, predictions are made, by using both the static planetary positions at birth, and the ongoing transitory positions of planets. There is a Dasa system, which informs the influence of transitory to the fixed.

I am not so gullible to defend something, without exploring. So, please, tell me, when you dismiss Vedic astrology, on what basis you are doing it? Do you know anything about it? Or is it just ideology?

Sorry to ask these questions, as I intend no harm. But, one should approach these topics with some reverence.

Thank you.

 

[S bala]

Namaskaram to all.

A couple of days back, I was helping one of my friends who was about to get married. The observations I made were quite startling, at least to myself. I know, this topic has been discussed umpteen number of times in this community, but still a few doubts/ questions arose in me:

1. Most marriages, arranged ones, are nothing but business deals. I thought a Brahmin was someone who was supposed to eke out his living in a humble mannerwith high ideals. But what I saw on the ground was materialism gone wild. Too much of Artha and Kama at work. I’m not saying one must go back to the days of poverty, but how much is enough for a mans monthly salary. Men getting rejected for salaries less than 1 lakh a month. How many make the cut at a young age. Where did we go wrong or lose our way.

2. There was once a time when Brahmins would not even sing, take part in cutcheries, never travel abroad, it was the isai vellalars who mastered and preserved this art. But suddenly, in a 100 years time, Carnatic music has become like the identity of Brahmins, America looks better than India. Nothing wrong there, one can say, times change we have to change, but a religious tenet is not something I can change at will according to my own convenience. Anybody who moves out of this land of Bharat automatically loses his varna is what we were practising, did a few dollars change us?.

3. Reformation in a religion will have to come down to the normals from a learned master. Any other opinions coming from other directions will be taken not as an advice but as an assault. When us Brahmins who are supposed to lead the way have gone behind material pursuits, what’s the point in lamenting of children going astray in life. Met many people at a crowd. All old people with kids abroad, but none of them are happy with their children’s choices of their spouses, life etc. What’s stopping such people to voice out their opinions loudly rather than being hypocritical to their own kids.

4. Too much of emphasis on degrees and the aura around it. I have nothing against building brands or marketing oneself, but there’s a lot of ego and cutthroat competition within the community. Unless one is an IITian or a CA or an MS from US, there is no value addition.In what way is a priest lesser than any of these fellows. One of my own family member addressed the vaidikas as beggars in a condescending manner. Now ,the same fellow takes pride when his grandson chants mantras. A glorified NRI beggar growing up is what I felt.

To sum up, considering there is no support framework for a Brahmin both within and outside the community, what are the options left for anyone who wishes to lead a normal dharmic life:

a. If answer is: it’s changing times and we have to move on by getting rid of these rituals, well then fine, at least we can push the new gen towards materialism. That would make them physically rich at least and not worry about subscribing to Dharma.

b. Or if answer is in striking a balance, how does one go about it. What’s the balancing rope and how to manoeuvre it.

Elders who have gone through such experiences can kindly share your insights.

Hi,

This issue of Change (Modernity) and Tradition(Preservation) is not new but only has become acute with globalisation.Brahmins faces this issue especially when they migrate.Earlier when Brahmins migrated from Thanjavur to Palakkad they would have found many new way of life like Matriarchal marriage which can be termed 'modern' at that point.The idea of being Brahmin is not to negate change but to seek the Absolute in the midst of all these changes.How it can be done is definitely a challenge especially when the community structure is weak but as a Brahmin one should hold on to Vedic Metaphysics only.Most of the confusion arises as a result of not knowing the Jnana part of Vedas.

Regards
Bala

 

[Iyest]

Dear Sri prasad1 Ji,

I do not usually respond to posts that are not addressed directly to me, on the topics I posted. But, I must reply as both of your above posts here leave impressions that may be misunderstood by many.

1. You say that in your first post, when the assumption is wrong, the accuracy of the resulting data is wrong. Sir, I presume that the assumption of Vedic astrology that people on earth are affected by both Nakshtras and planets Is what you mean. I do not fully understand your reasoning to question this assumption. But, let me tell you, the assumption is validated by the results, not the other way around. Vedic astrology is centered on earth, because it is about people living on earth. I think you are associated with a Hindu temple. Do you know, there is no old Indian temple without the Nava Graham’s, including Rahu. and Kethu? They are not real celestial bodies, but shadows of earth, from the light of Sun on earth. This is used in our temples because of the sixth limb of the Vedas, the Vedangas, Vedic astrology are ‘eyes’ of the limbs of Vedas.

Do you believe in the Hindu Dharma and Karma or not? Because, your horoscope when you are born (planatory positions at your exact time of birth, and place), is nothing but your prarabdha karma phala to be experienced in this life.

I do not know whether you have read, Maha Periaval’s book ’Hindu Dharma’. Your name suggests you are a Smartha, and as such he was your Guru. Please read the above book to understand our religion, and why Vedic astrology is not riff-raff.

2. In your second post (I do not know whether it is your thought or you copied and posted), you talk about Sri B. V. Raman’s 1939 prediction and without giving the full context of what he was saying. Do you really believe such a renowned person would make such a simplistic statement about Saturn? The comment shows an utter lack of understanding of the Vedic astrology fundamentals. Planets, of course move around with respect to earth, and they are all in the same sign after a few years. For example. Saturn, is in the same sign every 30 years. Other planets have different rotational times. This affect the horoscopes of everyone (including nations, according to their birth times). So, predictions are made, by using both the static planetary positions at birth, and the ongoing transitory positions of planets. There is a Dasa system, which informs the influence of transitory to the fixed.

I am not so gullible to defend something, without exploring. So, please, tell me, when you dismiss Vedic astrology, on what basis you are doing it? Do you know anything about it? Or is it just ideology?

Sorry to ask these questions, as I intend no harm. But, one should approach these topics with some reverence.

Thank you.

Sir, it is best to leave these matters alone. The article you are reacting to is pathetic. For example, even a beginner in astrology will know that in 1939 Saturn was in Aries cojoined with Ketu and aspected by Rahu. That was not so in 1909 or 1968 but a novice will not understand. Raman would certainly know the difference. Whether that is enough to predict war is a different matter, only somebody who has studied the charts of UK, Germany etc might know. You will often find that people who write articles on some subjects like astrology have no knowledge about it. It is not like articles on medicine or space science where usually the writer has some qualifications in that field.

 

[KRS]

Sir, it is best to leave these matters alone. The article you are reacting to is pathetic. For example, even a beginner in astrology will know that in 1939 Saturn was in Aries cojoined with Ketu and aspected by Rahu. That was not so in 1909 or 1968 but a novice will not understand. Raman would certainly know the difference. Whether that is enough to predict war is a different matter, only somebody who has studied the charts of UK, Germany etc might know. You will often find that people who write articles on some subjects like astrology have no knowledge about it. It is not like articles on medicine or space science where usually the writer has some qualifications in that field.

Sri Iyest Sir,

Yes, you are absolutely correct about leaving things alone. But, since this issue involves our tradition, Rishis, Vedas etc., I thought I would clarify. Hopefully some light will be thrown on the subject.

When Sri Raman says something like ‘Britain has to declare war on Germany, because Saturn is in Aries’, one who knows Vedic astrology would know that this position of transit Saturn triggers the event determined by the underlying conditions, not by Saturn alone. What are the underlying conditions?

1. Birth horoscopes of both England and Germany. This would include the positions of all nine planets in each and their relative strengths regarding to ascendents, moon and the sun in each. And whether in each inimical planets are situated in the place of enemies.

2. What Maha Dasa and Bhukhthi are running for each country and the timings.

3. How the transiting planets are positioned vis-a-vis each horoscope, that may trigger events to take place. This would include all planets.

So, one can see how complex the whole exercise is. This is why, a person venturing in to predictions,should be gifted, experienced and knowledgeable. Sri Raman had all those qualities and correctly predicted many major world events.

I have respect for those who do not believe in Vedic Astrology, because they have no interest, belief in it. That is okay. But, if one attacks it as a discipline, one should at least learn it, attack it on it’s own merits/demerits.

Thanks.

 

[Iyest]

if one attacks it as a discipline, one should at least learn it, attack it on it’s own merits/demerits.

Sir that is an ideal. The reality is what we see often. That is why they are best ignored.

 

[a-TB]

Sri a-TB Sir,

Okay, I Understand. I will leave discussion of Shraddha to some other time. I think our discussions in the other thread may also cover it.

Regarding, astrology, I do not know how much you are familiar with Vedic astrology. For myself, something propelled me at a very young age to study Vedic astrology. Since then it has been a lifelong hobby, I am what would you call as an amateur astrologer.

Now, as I grew up and studied Physics, I noticed that my fellow scientists had a very low opinion about it, as in their view, it was mumbo jumbo, without even knowing what it is, how it is formulated, and it’s structure. But I had different views, awestruck at it’s structure and discipline.

Medicine, as it was practiced and as it is even today is an art/science discipline. Diagnostics was an absolute art in the yester years and less so in modern times with all the diagnostic tools. But, it is still an art, dependent on the practitioner to draw upon his knowledge and experience to diagnose. But even then, we are advised to seek second opinions. Same is true for therapeutics. Medicines work differently on different folks, efficacy is not the same for everyone across the human spectrum. Yet, today it is practiced under the rubric of Medical Sciences as it should be. Because lots of it is empirical, drawing conclusions based on statistics and bell curves.

Now, Vedic astrology, in my opinion, is very similar. It is based on the exact movements of planets in Solar system, at the time of one’s birth, movements thereafter through out one’s life, different planets signifying different aspects of one’s life. This is all done with respect to the whole Solar system revolving around the zodiac, with distant stars influencing the system.

Around these mathematical calculations, are rules there voluminous to cover all the permutations and combinations of this complex system, yet, arranged in a systematic way for one to learn and start practicing, while learning more advanced topics, that fine tune the accuracy of the practice.

As an amateur, I am still practicing this art/science with reverence, finding that my predictions are about 75 to 80% proven to be correct.

Now how can one say that distant planets affect a person’s life on earth? But the discipline if practiced properly tells one just that. We do not know why, that’s all. Astrology belongs in the meta physical realm, not in the physical realm, though it uses physical movements of the planets that are physical bodies.

Because I know the discipline I know it is not something based on ‘mooda nambikkai’, because it works based on rules and data. Thanks.

Thank you Mr KRS Sir for your detailed response. I see the reverence with which you approach the area.

Hope you can see that it is all still anecdotal. While the comparison to the study of Medicine and drugs is excellent to explain how you approach the area, I am unaware of any double blind study conducted and published. Such methods are used to in study a drug's efficacy.

It is hard to get anyone to fund such a research perhaps because there are far too many variables that are not controllable. Often when predictions do not come true they rarely get attention.

Plus our mind has abilities to see connections that may not exist.

I respect your experience and your beliefs based on your anecdotal experience. Wish there were scientific studies to establish correlation. Whether causation is implied from this is yet another matter altogether. Without these it cannot be called a Science.

In doing some research I understood that Jyothisha is a limb of Vedas and not part of Vedas. I can be corrected. It was used mainly to predict right time for rituals. Again I do not have authentic reference to back up what I read. The Astrology as practiced today may be a later day evolution unconnected to Vedas. Again it is a speculation on my part.

In any case wish you all the best and thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs and understanding.

 

[tbs]

Thank you Mr KRS Sir for your detailed response. I see the reverence with which you approach the area.

Hope you can see that it is all still anecdotal. While the comparison to the study of Medicine and drugs is excellent to explain how you approach the area, I am unaware of any double blind study conducted and published. Such methods are used to in study a drug's efficacy.

It is hard to get anyone to fund such a research perhaps because there are far too many variables that are not controllable. Often when predictions do not come true they rarely get attention.

Plus our mind has abilities to see connections that may not exist.

I respect your experience and your beliefs based on your anecdotal experience. Wish there were scientific studies to establish correlation. Whether causation is implied from this is yet another matter altogether. Without these it cannot be called a Science.

In doing some research I understood that Jyothisha is a limb of Vedas and not part of Vedas. I can be corrected. It was used mainly to predict right time for rituals. Again I do not have authentic reference to back up what I read. The Astrology as practiced today may be a later day evolution unconnected to Vedas. Again it is a speculation on my part.

In any case wish you all the best and thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs and understanding.

hi sir

In doing some research I understood that Jyothisha is a limb of Vedas and not part of Vedas.

yes...its called VEDANGA IN SANSKRIT.....ASTROLOGY IS LIMP OF VEDAS...

 

[renuka]

hi sir

In doing some research I understood that Jyothisha is a limb of Vedas and not part of Vedas.

yes...its called VEDANGA IN SANSKRIT.....ASTROLOGY IS LIMP OF VEDAS...

A lot of things are attributed to Vedas but mostly its not.
I once met a person who was talking about some weird stuff and saying" its in the Vedas"

I asked him to let me know which Veda and which portion and chapter etc.
He just kept saying " its in the Vedas"

Btw I have a question here.
Jyotisha is a Vedanga.
What about Vedanta?
Is it also not actually a part of Vedas but also a limb of Vedas?

 

[KRS]

Thank you Mr KRS Sir for your detailed response. I see the reverence with which you approach the area.

Hope you can see that it is all still anecdotal. While the comparison to the study of Medicine and drugs is excellent to explain how you approach the area, I am unaware of any double blind study conducted and published. Such methods are used to in study a drug's efficacy.

It is hard to get anyone to fund such a research perhaps because there are far too many variables that are not controllable. Often when predictions do not come true they rarely get attention.

Plus our mind has abilities to see connections that may not exist.

I respect your experience and your beliefs based on your anecdotal experience. Wish there were scientific studies to establish correlation. Whether causation is implied from this is yet another matter altogether. Without these it cannot be called a Science.

In doing some research I understood that Jyothisha is a limb of Vedas and not part of Vedas. I can be corrected. It was used mainly to predict right time for rituals. Again I do not have authentic reference to back up what I read. The Astrology as practiced today may be a later day evolution unconnected to Vedas. Again it is a speculation on my part.

In any case wish you all the best and thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs and understanding.

Sri a-TB Sir,

Thank you for your kind response.

I do not call Vedic Astrology as ‘Science’, in the modern sense. That is why, I termed it as ‘Meta Physics’ in one of my previous posts.

While there are lots of research, with some people testing the rules of the discipline, there are no, as you correctly pointed out, systematic research findings published in peer reviewed journals, following modern scientific methods, as far as I know.

I gave the examples of modern medicine regarding diagnostics and therapy only to say how we combine science and art. In fact the reason for the double blind study is to negate or at least mitigate the placebo effect.

I think that there are several reasons why Vedic Astrology is not studied in the modern scientific way. There are lots of quacks out there, ‘practicing’ it, just to make money. So, the discipline is tarnished. There are no ‘qualification‘ tests and graduations in the field (I heard that some academic institutions have started this in India and elsewhere), but I do not know the efficacy of such systems. Most people who are competent in the field get this knowledge through our traditional method, in Gurukulams, and they do not publish.

I am an exception, and as it is my hobby, not an avocation, I know the limits of my knowledge - my self assessment of my capability is analagous to being in the sixth or seventh standard of education in a high school, in a scale of education from first standard through getting a Ph.D. I learnt it by myself, from reading and applying.

So, I am very careful when I predict. You are right, my experience is ‘anecdotal’, but I have seen many such ‘anecdotals’ from other Vedic Astrologists.

Yes, Jyotish is one of the six disciplines of Vedanga. Others deal with the sound, pronounciation, meters, grammar etc. of Vedic language. if interested, please see Wikipedia.

Jyotish has three parts, predictions based on horoscopes, Mundane astrology for countries, societies and determinations of auspicious times to perform Vedic rites. All three are dependent on the exact calculations of the positions of heavenly bodies using astronomy.

The predictive part has many treatises, but the main one is ascribed to a Rishi named ‘Parsara’, who is said to be the father of the Rishi ‘Agastya’. There are other systems, one by another Rishi ‘Jaimini’, etc. Rishis, it is said, got the knowledge from looking inward, tapping it from Atma.

You correctly observed that I have reverence for this field. Yes, I have utter reverence for all the knowledge generated by our forefathers on whose shoulders we stand on. They knew things that only now the modern science is starting to open enquirers in to. Let me tell you a few examples to illustrate:

They are finding only now about the medicinal merits of eating certain foods as turmeric and other spices and vegetables wherein our ancestors knew about them long ago. Another simple exercise that I used to take it for granted whenever I used to visit Ganesha temple - to do ‘Thoppukarnam’. Now we learn that such an exercise is a very beneficial exercise to develop one’s brains. Another one is that we are told to recite any Japa 108 times with the Lord’s name, as it is beneficial. Now you learn through science that distance between the Sun and the Moon to the earth are approximately 108 times of the diameter of each respectively. We can only fathom, how this number may have something to do with creation. I can go on and on, including how 0, the decimal system, concept of infinity, which form the foundation of modern science were formulated on the concept of cosmology as understood by our forefathers.

To me, this knowledge is sacred. Like you are taught ‘Matha, Pitha, Guru Deivam’. Hence the reverence. Thank you for listening.

 

[KRS]

A lot of things are attributed to Vedas but mostly its not.
I once met a person who was talking about some weird stuff and saying" its in the Vedas"

I asked him to let me know which Veda and which portion and chapter etc.
He just kept saying " its in the Vedas"

Btw I have a question here.
Jyotisha is a Vedanga.
What about Vedanta?
Is it also not actually a part of Vedas but also a limb of Vedas?

Srimathi Dr. Renuka Ji,

To my limited knowledge, Vedanta alias Upanishads alias Uttara Mimamsa, along with the Aranyakas of the Purva Mimamsas, belong to a broad classification called ‘Gnana Kanda’ of the Vedas. So, they are viewed as part of Vedas.

It is just that Vedanta was developed later, but is sill considered ‘Apaurusheya’.

 

[tbs]

A lot of things are attributed to Vedas but mostly its not.
I once met a person who was talking about some weird stuff and saying" its in the Vedas"

I asked him to let me know which Veda and which portion and chapter etc.
He just kept saying " its in the Vedas"

Btw I have a question here.
Jyotisha is a Vedanga.
What about Vedanta?
Is it also not actually a part of Vedas but also a limb of Vedas?

hi doctor,

there are six VENDANGAS....KALPAM ...NIRUKATAM ....JYOTHISHAM....VYAKARANAM etc

VEDANTA OF PART OF VEDAS.....SAMHITA....ARANYAKAM.....UPANISHADS.....these 3 parts...

so end of veda part is called VEDANTA/UPANISHAD...

 

[KRS]

Exactly Sri tbs Sir. I jumped the gun But let us not forget Brahmanas, which together with Samhitas fall in the category of ‘Karma Khanda’. Am I right! Sir?

 

[tbs]

Exactly Sri tbs Sir. I jumped the gun But let us not forget Brahmanas, which together with Samhitas fall in the category of ‘Karma Khanda’. Am I right! Sir?

hi sir,

SAMHITA/ BHRAMANAS.....ARANYAKAM....UPANISHADS...LIKE IN KRISHNA YAJURVEDA....

TAITHHREYA BRAHAMANAM/SAMHITA....TAI TIREEYA ARANYAKAM.....TAITHREEYA UPANISHAD...

BRAHAMANAM/SAMITHA...CALLED KARMAKANDA... WITH TOGETHER ARANYAKAM CALLLED

PURVA MIMASA.....UPANISHAD IS CALLED UTTARA MIMAMSA/VEDANTA..

 

[tbs]

hi KRS SIR,

thanks....just my little knowledge about vedas...