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Brahmins and Jews

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Oh really? So anyone can go to a tashildar's office, claim he belongs to narikurava, mudaliyar, reddy and get a BC certificate. Nobody will ask for documents of applicant's parents or grandparent. There won't be official verification. So its just claim and get. Nice. If this was possible every brahmin wud get a certificate claiming he is a mudaliyar BC. But alas, it seems only brahmins are singled out for discrimination. So the tamil brahmin goes to karnataka, pays hefty bribes there to get a BC certificate. Nice.

Come on. Cut that show of credulous innocence. It is an open secret if you care to look at the situation with eyes not clouded as it exists. It requires just a phone call from the local politician to the VO and you can get any certificate. One can even get a certificate that he/she is an abandoned poodle badly in need of a suitable mate. A brahmin would never get a certificate that he is a ST or SC candidate because no politician would make that recommendation or make that phone call and no VO would give him a certificate without supporting evidence. Moreover there is no brahmin subcaste with deceptive names like a kondareddy in the SC/ST list. Even the poor gurukkal is a brahmin only.
 
phylosophy is just happy read i think

(i.e. the emotion spikes a bit up and helps the IQ ?). FOR example this stanza makes u feel proud that there is some sense made out of nonsense years ago in the field of mathematics, from your geographical place of birth ( and i assume u should like maths and ur place of birth!!).

but IF the calculation is applied to ur income savings and expenditure, then u will probably in the streets.

commonsense is more important to keep EQ and IQ high.

Smt. Sandhya,

Much of our philosophy reflects the intellectual and thinking levels of a small group of people who lived in ancient times, under primitive circumstances and without much of any intellectual capacity on the lines of modern science, to explore and investigate this physical world. There was, however, more freedom of expression - it would appear so, from the very large number of vedic "samhitas" which reportedly existed, and the different philosophies (called "Darsanas") including heretic ones like Buddhism, Lokaayata, Jainism, etc., which completely rejected any authority for the vedas. But today, for the hindutva people - and for some members in this forum as well - all those philosophies are as sacrosanct as the Quran is for the Muslims. Because the scriptures have thus become a "holy cow" it cannot be faulted but only be justified somehow and lauded.

I may recount one instance which you will find in the archives of this forum. I had cited one instance of 'high' philosophical gems from a braahmaNa text according to which water (aapaH) is produced by/emanates from heat (taapaH) because a person sweats when the temperature around him/her goes up. Immediately, one of our illustrious members countered this by stating that if oxygen and hydrogen are mixed and exposed to high temperatures, they will combine chemically to form water and that the scripture had intuitively (esoterically/exotically) foreseen this modern scientific discovery many centuries ago through the superhuman intellect of the sages !;)

Later on, in another context another equally "brahminist" member remarked that water cannot be made artificially by mixing oxygen & hydrogen and giving a burst of heat.

This is the position today, at least in this forum. And so all hindu scriptures are all completely inerrant.
 
Smt. Sandhya,
Much of our philosophy reflects the intellectual and thinking levels of a small group of people who lived in ancient times, under primitive circumstances and without much of any intellectual capacity on the lines of modern science, to explore and investigate this physical world. There was, however, more freedom of expression - it would appear so, from the very large number of vedic "samhitas" which reportedly existed, and the different philosophies (called "Darsanas") including heretic ones like Buddhism, Lokaayata, Jainism, etc., which completely rejected any authority for the vedas. But today, for the hindutva people - and for some members in this forum as well - all those philosophies are as sacrosanct as the Quran is for the Muslims. Because the scriptures have thus become a "holy cow" it cannot be faulted but only be justified somehow and lauded.

In primeval times the circumstances could have been only primitive. The greatness and uniqueness of the thinking and the thought processes involved lies in the fact that they were all far ahead of their times. To say that they lack in intellectual capacity reveals just prejudice. Those who rejected vedas rejected them on the basis of their own logic. Thus there was freedom to follow vedas or to follow non-vedic darsanas/schools of thought. The "hindutva people"(HP) and "some members of this forum"(SMF) consider the vedas to be sacrosanct and immutable. They differ with those who reject vedas. These HPs and SMFs do not take a gun and shoot down those who follow heresy like the jihadis elsewhere. Either you accept the vedas and try to undestand the various branches or schools of philosophy that come under them or you be a heretic and be happy with the heresy. There is no need to call any thing the holy cow.

I may recount one instance which you will find in the archives of this forum. I had cited one instance of 'high' philosophical gems from a braahmaNa text according to which water (aapaH) is produced by/emanates from heat (taapaH) because a person sweats when the temperature around him/her goes up. Immediately, one of our illustrious members countered this by stating that if oxygen and hydrogen are mixed and exposed to high temperatures, they will combine chemically to form water and that the scripture had intuitively (esoterically/exotically) foreseen this modern scientific discovery many centuries ago through the superhuman intellect of the sages !;)
Later on, in another context another equally "brahminist" member remarked that water cannot be made artificially by mixing oxygen & hydrogen and giving a burst of heat.

You have not given both sides of the argument while recalling it(your aapaH and taapaH) from your memory(though I have nothing to do with this argument quoted here by you)and so it is difficult to argue further on it and evaluate it. We can question every scientifically proven "fact". Those fine thinkers of ancient times knew the futility of the relative truths which were relative to time because time is always on an unidirectional, irreversible and unending march. They knew well that all axioms and axiomatic truths held only within a given frame. So they did not have the interest to waste their time and effort on a research into such subjects except to make life comfortable within limits. They knew that a straight line is not a straight line though axiomatically the shortest distance between two points on a surface should form a straight line.

.
This is the position today, at least in this forum. And so all hindu scriptures are all completely inerrant.

If your view is that vedas are fallible and that there are errors therein please start a new thread where we can argue it out in detail.
 
Oh really? So anyone can go to a tashildar's office, claim he belongs to narikurava, mudaliyar, reddy and get a BC certificate. Nobody will ask for documents of applicant's parents or grandparent. There won't be official verification. So its just claim and get. Nice. If this was possible every brahmin wud get a certificate claiming he is a mudaliyar BC. But alas, it seems only brahmins are singled out for discrimination. So the tamil brahmin goes to karnataka, pays hefty bribes there to get a BC certificate. Nice.

Dear Palindrome,

All the major non brahmin upper caste FC communities like Mudaliar, Chettiar etc had a way out.....I agree with Vaghmi...

Look at Mudaliars...They are using the Vellalar /Sengunthar/Thondu Vellalar/Sozhia Vellalar etc bandwagon to become OBC..Agamudiars/Thuluva Vellalar are the richest land owning class very forward...Now they are deemed OBC

Look at Chettiars the land owning & shop owning community...They can easily get away under te category of Kotta Chetty or Elur Chetty or Pathira Chetty or Valayal Chetty or Kongu Chettiar or 24 Manai Telugu Chetty or generic Telugu Chetty or Vellan Chettiar etc

Now the old OBC's are now squirming...The clamour has started for declaring themselves as MBC
The churn & chicanery continues in TN under the garb of reservations

http://www.ncbc.nic.in/pdf/tamilnadu.pdf
 
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I am still unable to reply in detail. However, one portion of my post has been misunderstood, taken out of context, so wanted to clarify.

Palindrome said:
So Mudaliyars are including Nari Kuravar in data pertaining to them?? Well, well, this is new. Can you elaborate on it?

What I meant is this:

A caste census is useful only with disaggregated data. That is measuring and presenting the socio economic condition of individual castes in a given group as opposed to presenting data for the whole OBCs as a group. The latter does not give us any idea about how the individual castes are doing. The dominant OBC communities resist such analysis, because it will then clearly show that their own communities are not backward and so they will have to give up reservation privilege.

I just used mudaliyars and nari kuravars as examples only to show that if you present data for all the constituents together, it does not show the backwardness of each of them. In this way, the dominant OBCs are still able to keep their quota benefits unfairly. It was not meant to cast aspersions on any one particular community (the mudaliyar community). The misunderstanding is one reason I try to avoid quoting specific community names as much as possible.

Unfortunately, my post has unnecessarily raised suspicions about fake caste certificates etc in subsequent posts #223, 224, 226 etc. That was not what I meant in my post! Communities trying to reclassify themselves to a lower category or indulging in violence in requesting a separate quota for themselves is a direct result of the problem that I am mentioning here.
 


Smt. Sandhya,

Much of our philosophy reflects the intellectual and thinking levels of a small group of people who lived in ancient times, under primitive circumstances and without much of any intellectual capacity on the lines of modern science, to explore and investigate this physical world. There was, however, more freedom of expression - it would appear so, from the very large number of vedic "samhitas" which reportedly existed, and the different philosophies (called "Darsanas") including heretic ones like Buddhism, Lokaayata, Jainism, etc., which completely rejected any authority for the vedas. But today, for the hindutva people - and for some members in this forum as well - all those philosophies are as sacrosanct as the Quran is for the Muslims. Because the scriptures have thus become a "holy cow" it cannot be faulted but only be justified somehow and lauded.

I may recount one instance which you will find in the archives of this forum. I had cited one instance of 'high' philosophical gems from a braahmaNa text according to which water (aapaH) is produced by/emanates from heat (taapaH) because a person sweats when the temperature around him/her goes up. Immediately, one of our illustrious members countered this by stating that if oxygen and hydrogen are mixed and exposed to high temperatures, they will combine chemically to form water and that the scripture had intuitively (esoterically/exotically) foreseen this modern scientific discovery many centuries ago through the superhuman intellect of the sages !;)

Later on, in another context another equally "brahminist" member remarked that water cannot be made artificially by mixing oxygen & hydrogen and giving a burst of heat.

This is the position today, at least in this forum. And so all hindu scriptures are all completely inerrant.

Shanti Mantra cited in one of the posts does not have anything to do with science or philosophy or mathematics.
Without adequate background, attitude, and effort and without being properly guided it is not possible to comprehend the meaning.
Its literal translated meaning is absurd. So using such a meaning one can either mock the scriptures or try to find some "profound" connections to science or mathematics etc. All those reactions are incorrect.

My comment is only directed to one that wants to learn (but not via comments in a forum)
 
Shanti Mantra cited in one of the posts does not have anything to do with science or philosophy or mathematics.
Without adequate background, attitude, and effort and without being properly guided it is not possible to comprehend the meaning.
Its literal translated meaning is absurd. So using such a meaning one can either mock the scriptures or try to find some "profound" connections to science or mathematics etc. All those reactions are incorrect.

My comment is only directed to one that wants to learn (but not via comments in a forum)

Emphasis given by me. Whoever talked about any Shanti Mantra? Seems this will be the result of the much-touted "properly guided" persons ;) !
 


Dear Kunjuppu,

I am a very strong believer in Karma. And I believe it will do justice in the very final way. Once in the past I had occasion to recount how just in one generation, one of the many children of a SC person (untouchable and had to keep prescribed distance from upper castes, even in my boyhood days) who lived in a simple thatched hut - just one room-like thing on the embankment on the border of rice fields, has become a very reputed brain surgeon and has become a prominent citizen of the Municipality. So, if a SC boy can achieve this in his lifetime itself, it only shows that basically these people were denied such opportunities in the past.

Though I am just an ordinary mortal, I believe that the reservations and "the dalits to feel the wrongs committed against them righted." may not actually be linked; the law of karma goes its own humanly inscrutable ways.


dear sangom,

i have been thinking over this karma concept. i think it is the only way tambrams can accept the concept of reservations. that it is their karma to be out of it. i think all the vedic trending members here with their various percentages of affiliation, if they accept karma, then this too will be accepted, somewhat grudgingly,or even unwillingly. we dont have to like all our karma, do we

the reservation system is providing uplift for many many communities at the bottom of this caste cesspool. even the most ardent supporter of reservation agrees that not only is this not perfect, but abuses take places. like everything else in india social life. the solution is not to throw the baby with the bath water.

but this goes with a great malaise in our society - the willingness to accommodate corruption, without any positive results emanating out of it. in china there is corruption, but china appears to be dealing with its problems and coming up with solutions. we appear to be going the african way - absolute corruption to bankrupt the country.

oh well!!
 
Come on. Cut that show of credulous innocence. It is an open secret if you care to look at the situation with eyes not clouded as it exists. It requires just a phone call from the local politician to the VO and you can get any certificate. One can even get a certificate that he/she is an abandoned poodle badly in need of a suitable mate. A brahmin would never get a certificate that he is a ST or SC candidate because no politician would make that recommendation or make that phone call and no VO would give him a certificate without supporting evidence. Moreover there is no brahmin subcaste with deceptive names like a kondareddy in the SC/ST list. Even the poor gurukkal is a brahmin only.
Wow! Since when did politicians start picking up phone calls of the common middle class? Next time I will call my local politician and ask him to tell VO to issue BC certificate. Am sure everyone will oblige.

As for the SC/ST cert, try Karnataka. Bribery works a good deal there. Just that they have standards, so bribery is high. In Andhra, there is anti-corruption drive since past 4 years, so you may not get lucky anymore.

But in Tamilnadu the person sitting in the thasildar's office is always an SC/ST himself zealously guarding his lot. No amount of bribe wud work since they already get enough bribes to pass various documents and from infrastructure works.
 
Wow! Since when did politicians start picking up phone calls of the common middle class? Next time I will call my local politician and ask him to tell VO to issue BC certificate. Am sure everyone will oblige.

As for the SC/ST cert, try Karnataka. Bribery works a good deal there. Just that they have standards, so bribery is high. In Andhra, there is anti-corruption drive since past 4 years, so you may not get lucky anymore.

But in Tamilnadu the person sitting in the thasildar's office is always an SC/ST himself zealously guarding his lot. No amount of bribe wud work since they already get enough bribes to pass various documents and from infrastructure works.

Since when did you stop reading the posts properly and fully before coming with your replies. Where did I say that the phone call is from a common middle class man to the politician. To get a false certificate that he belongs to the kondareddy community a reddiar boy has to go personally and meet the politician belonging to his caste and pay the obeisances and other payable things to him through his PA. Then the phone call to the VO will materialise and things will work out smoothly. I know personally a case where the gentleman got selected to the central services (IAS) through this route. For BC/MBC/OBCs there is no need to go to any other state. TN is the heaven for them. Most of the politicians are either NAIDUS, NAICKERS, THEVARS, MUDALIYARS OR GOUNDERS. So for these communities it is just word to the Annan through the right connections.
 
கால பைரவன்;206919 said:
I am still unable to reply in detail. However, one portion of my post has been misunderstood, taken out of context, so wanted to clarify.



What I meant is this:

A caste census is useful only with disaggregated data. That is measuring and presenting the socio economic condition of individual castes in a given group as opposed to presenting data for the whole OBCs as a group. The latter does not give us any idea about how the individual castes are doing. The dominant OBC communities resist such analysis, because it will then clearly show that their own communities are not backward and so they will have to give up reservation privilege.

I just used mudaliyars and nari kuravars as examples only to show that if you present data for all the constituents together, it does not show the backwardness of each of them. In this way, the dominant OBCs are still able to keep their quota benefits unfairly. It was not meant to cast aspersions on any one particular community (the mudaliyar community). The misunderstanding is one reason I try to avoid quoting specific community names as much as possible.

Unfortunately, my post has unnecessarily raised suspicions about fake caste certificates etc in subsequent posts #223, 224, 226 etc. That was not what I meant in my post! Communities trying to reclassify themselves to a lower category or indulging in violence in requesting a separate quota for themselves is a direct result of the problem that I am mentioning here.
I agree with the last sentence. However, various commissions are instituted for this very reason. Simply bullying and claiming lower category will not grant anyone anything.Take Gujjars for example. After all dharnas and violence what happened? In most districts of Himachal Pradesh they are still Bakarawallahs (herding goats), so they got ST status in those districts only.

You have an angst with politicians. I agree with that. But politicians everywhere are a problem, aren't they? No matter how much vote bank politics they try, they still balance out each other. Example: Jats and Gujjars are traditional rivals. It reflects in politics too. Gujjar politicians cannot make fake claims and get away with it. Thankgod we have a judiciary. Only if a commission finds they require benefits, gujjars of specific districts get them.
 
dear sangom,

i have been thinking over this karma concept. i think it is the only way tambrams can accept the concept of reservations. that it is their karma to be out of it. i think all the vedic trending members here with their various percentages of affiliation, if they accept karma, then this too will be accepted, somewhat grudgingly,or even unwillingly. we dont have to like all our karma, do we

the reservation system is providing uplift for many many communities at the bottom of this caste cesspool. even the most ardent supporter of reservation agrees that not only is this not perfect, but abuses take places. like everything else in india social life. the solution is not to throw the baby with the bath water.

but this goes with a great malaise in our society - the willingness to accommodate corruption, without any positive results emanating out of it. in china there is corruption, but china appears to be dealing with its problems and coming up with solutions. we appear to be going the african way - absolute corruption to bankrupt the country.

oh well!!

This happiness that the unfair reservation system has delivered to the BC/OBC/MBC crowd is going to be just short lived. With the development of technology, dissemination of knowledge through net is going to be the order of the day. Wait and watch. There are going to be large virtual universities and everyone including those who are denied a fair share of the pie today in the name of reservation are going to have free access to the best of education in every possible branc of knowledge. After you finish your grades in the virtual University you will have to prove yourself in the market where the competition will be fair. Merit will get its due recognition and it will be again starting from square one for politicians to sell hatred opium to the less fortunate ones who stand rejected. Indian armed forces have stubbornly rejected the proposal to implement reservation in their selection and promotion.

Yes, security is an area where you can not allow your dimwitted politicians to play around with the levers because they may accidentally release a nuclear tipped missile after wrongly aiming it on their own sprawling bungalow.
 
Since when did you stop reading the posts properly and fully before coming with your replies. Where did I say that the phone call is from a common middle class man to the politician. To get a false certificate that he belongs to the kondareddy community a reddiar boy has to go personally and meet the politician belonging to his caste and pay the obeisances and other payable things to him through his PA. Then the phone call to the VO will materialise and things will work out smoothly. I know personally a case where the gentleman got selected to the central services (IAS) through this route. For BC/MBC/OBCs there is no need to go to any other state. TN is the heaven for them. Most of the politicians are either NAIDUS, NAICKERS, THEVARS, MUDALIYARS OR GOUNDERS. So for these communities it is just word to the Annan through the right connections.
So one fraud case is enough to claim everyone gets thru this way? And then make the usual interpretation that all middle class people do it. If only that were possible, the aam aadmi wud not be so frustrated with the MLA he elected.

Btw, why not file a case against this person for getting fake caste certificate? One muslim classmate was caught like this (their own neighbor filed a complaint --- the lady was angry her son did not get engineering seat but was puzzled how the neighbor's son with same marks got. Turns out the neighbors faked the income ceiling which is a must in karnataka. The boy was debarred for 5 years, ended up doing a diploma instead of a degree).
 


Smt. Sandhya,

Much of our philosophy reflects the intellectual and thinking levels of a small group of people who lived in ancient times, under primitive circumstances and without much of any intellectual capacity on the lines of modern science, to explore and investigate this physical world. There was, however, more freedom of expression - it would appear so, from the very large number of vedic "samhitas" which reportedly existed, and the different philosophies (called "Darsanas") including heretic ones like Buddhism, Lokaayata, Jainism, etc., which completely rejected any authority for the vedas. But today, for the hindutva people - and for some members in this forum as well - all those philosophies are as sacrosanct as the Quran is for the Muslims. Because the scriptures have thus become a "holy cow" it cannot be faulted but only be justified somehow and lauded.

I may recount one instance which you will find in the archives of this forum. I had cited one instance of 'high' philosophical gems from a braahmaNa text according to which water (aapaH) is produced by/emanates from heat (taapaH) because a person sweats when the temperature around him/her goes up. Immediately, one of our illustrious members countered this by stating that if oxygen and hydrogen are mixed and exposed to high temperatures, they will combine chemically to form water and that the scripture had intuitively (esoterically/exotically) foreseen this modern scientific discovery many centuries ago through the superhuman intellect of the sages !;)

Later on, in another context another equally "brahminist" member remarked that water cannot be made artificially by mixing oxygen & hydrogen and giving a burst of heat.

This is the position today, at least in this forum. And so all hindu scriptures are all completely inerrant.
Satyam bruyath na bruyath satyam apriyam, so stay silent or like taqiyya say anything to ensure 'dharma' is protected.
 
So one fraud case is enough to claim everyone gets thru this way? And then make the usual interpretation that all middle class people do it. If only that were possible, the aam aadmi wud not be so frustrated with the MLA he elected........Btw, why not file a case against this person for getting fake caste certificate?

It is not just one case. The friend got the idea from someone else who guided him in this. So it is a huge racket. Why not complain? yes that is an option for others but not for me. I belong to the brahmin community which is a castrated, voiceless micro minority in my country. The added disadvantage is that deep in my value system there is ahimsa which unfortunately is a core value. I can not hit back to kill someone. I have a family and I do not want anyone to lose a leg or a hand. So I keep quite. If I am personally affected it may be a different scenario.
 
1. Caste certificates can be procured for a consideration. There are agents to take care of minor details - recommendation, sanmanam, signature, seal etc.
2. Even elected politicians and panchayat presidents have been exposed for producing false caste certificates.
3. In delhi now there are agents to arrange aadar cards for close to 2.5 lakh migrants, some of questionable nationality, for the soon to happen elections.
4. It is estimated that about 25% of the aadar cards are fake, given to ineligible persons.
5. If the government wants to abolish caste, gazetted list of castes is to be burnt and destroyed; reservation too must be abolished.
6. Brahmins neither gain nor lose, as they are outside the reservation system.
 
It is not just one case. The friend got the idea from someone else who guided him in this. So it is a huge racket. Why not complain? yes that is an option for others but not for me. I belong to the brahmin community which is a castrated, voiceless micro minority in my country. The added disadvantage is that deep in my value system there is ahimsa which unfortunately is a core value. I can not hit back to kill someone. I have a family and I do not want anyone to lose a leg or a hand. So I keep quite. If I am personally affected it may be a different scenario.
In the muslim case i mentioned, the fraud party got the help of a local MLA to fake the income ceiling. But once the complaint was filed, the local leader was nowhere on the scene. These leaders are actually chillar type (mercenaries). Its their business. Their job is to do stuff like this to earn money. They don't care what happens to the party after they collect the moolah. In any case, the fraud party won't name the local MLA for fear of his life.

It is easy to stop such crimes actually. One personally known girl (telugu speaker incidentally) in tamilnadu got a fake SC cert, She had a boasting habit. So others came to know. She was debarred from +2 exams for 5 years. She too got the idea from someone (no idea if it was a racket). But the girl paid her price. Its cowardliness to let a crime go unchecked. Where is your conscience? Why not gather some known people together and file a complaint?

Reminds me of someone who told me "If you are cowardly, then don't complain" (he said this bcoz i used to always complain about a particular person, i had no courage to talk back then, i was far too young that time). But you sir, are not young. Why fear so much?
 
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dear sangom,

i have been thinking over this karma concept. i think it is the only way tambrams can accept the concept of reservations. that it is their karma to be out of it. i think all the vedic trending members here with their various percentages of affiliation, if they accept karma, then this too will be accepted, somewhat grudgingly,or even unwillingly. we dont have to like all our karma, do we

the reservation system is providing uplift for many many communities at the bottom of this caste cesspool. even the most ardent supporter of reservation agrees that not only is this not perfect, but abuses take places. like everything else in india social life. the solution is not to throw the baby with the bath water.

but this goes with a great malaise in our society - the willingness to accommodate corruption, without any positive results emanating out of it. in china there is corruption, but china appears to be dealing with its problems and coming up with solutions. we appear to be going the african way - absolute corruption to bankrupt the country.

oh well!!

dear kunjuppu,

I do not think that the small cross-section of brahminist friends here, really represent all tabras. In my limited experience - and as you often state - we tabras are great survivors and survival is our only aim. Hence, defending scriptures, grumbling about reservation system and so on is "not the cup of tea" for many tabras, I will say. On the contrary, they will strive to find ways & means to overcome the obstacles posed by the reservation system and ensure that their children irrespective of his/her intellectual abilities and the so-called brahmin superiority gene etc., get a good academic qualification and a well-paying job. Right now CA seems to be the most sought after line, but I wonder how a CA's job and all the sattvik gunas of brahmins will co-exist for long ;)

I don't think the gangotri of corruption in India is the reservation system; it is as old as Chanakya's Arthasastra, if not still older - right from Chaarvaka's days! (That is why the Chaarvakas mocked at Sraddha rite and said if by feeding a brahmana in the ground floor, we cannot satisfy the hunger of a person sitting in the first floor, how then can we believe that the pitrus in another world get their hunger satiated by this mockery? And then the sodakumbham is a very revealing attempt to "unduly influence" the divine jury to pronounce a favourable verdict in favour of one's deceased parents.

China is also two worlds —like bharat and India; the high and the mighty go scot-free but the less powerful are even executed by their tens or hundreds and this gives an impression which is very much misleading. I am no expert but I think perhaps the west may yet have the last laugh and not China. What is your take, pl?
 


...
China is also two worlds —like bharat and India; the high and the mighty go scot-free but the less powerful are even executed by their tens or hundreds and this gives an impression which is very much misleading. I am no expert but I think perhaps the west may yet have the last laugh and not China. What is your take, pl?

dear sangom,

as is evidenced by the disgracing of bo xilai's wife and removing bo himself from power, china has selectively punished even top rung officials. around 5000 people, it is rumoured, are put to death in china every year, including now, for pollution crimes. if this happens in india, every factory owner in thiruppur will lose his head :)

china has a vision which is long term in terms of half a century or more, and the continuity of the vision through various regimes. deng xao ping laid the vision, making it attractive for the chinese people, so that two generations have sacrificed themselves on low paying jobs and near slavery conditions, so that the country can become the factory for the world, and a bank holding of trillions of u.s. dolla.

the country, has so far, not made one misstep in foreign policy and where possible has bled the u.s. white by supporting regimes opposed to the u.s. china is a big presence in africa and latin america, where they are not only now the biggest mine owners, but also chinese immigrants are setting up shops and factories, shops to retail chinese goods, and factories to send semi finished minerals back to china, for completion and value addition.

it may be of surprise to many, that today's top european brands, which are still made in europe, ie mostly in italy, are made by chinese labourers and chinese sub contractors. milan will have no fashion shoes or couture, had it not been for chinese immigrants.

chinese-workers-trafficked-into-italy-s-garment-factories

china has this huge underbelly of poverty in the provinces, but is going about in a big way, and ruthlessly to change the habits of its rural citizens, so that they too can become consumers of chinese factories. china, with trillions of potentially worthless dolla, is now looking to creating an internal market as big as its export and thus rid itself of dependency on the west and also on exports.

re foreign policy and external relations, i am still waiting for china to slip up once. and when that happens, i will start believing, that the west's duplicity and cunning will eventually cause china's promotion to #1. that china will be a force to be reckoned for the long term future, there is no doubt. the future for that, is already here. right now. i think so anyway.

it must be remembered, that the chinese pla was clobbered by a battle hardened vietnamese army in the late 70 or early 80s over a border dispute. so the pla will not wag its tail on that southern border. i suspect there will be more wagging on our himalayan border, just to keep our newspapers and politicians excited, and give hope to pakistan of a india humiliation. it is best we settle borders with china and dont talk about retrieving territory lost. if we can do so with bangla desh, it is all the more important that we keep peace with china.
 
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funny reads, intriguing undercurrents between 231 & 232.

corruption and caste are just tags. similar tags can be found in economic-depression and donations.

holistic thoughts tell me u abolish something u open up a worse box, pretty much like the underworld don who was abolished in Dublin few decades ago and a new one came up who was even worse.
 
dear sangom,

as is evidenced by the disgracing of bo xilai's wife and removing bo himself from power, china has selectively punished even top rung officials. around 5000 people, it is rumoured, are put to death in china every year, including now, for pollution crimes. if this happens in india, every factory owner in thiruppur will lose his head :)

china has a vision which is long term in terms of half a century or more, and the continuity of the vision through various regimes. deng xao ping laid the vision, making it attractive for the chinese people, so that two generations have sacrificed themselves on low paying jobs and near slavery conditions, so that the country can become the factory for the world, and a bank holding of trillions of u.s. dolla.

the country, has so far, not made one misstep in foreign policy and where possible has bled the u.s. white by supporting regimes opposed to the u.s. china is a big presence in africa and latin america, where they are not only now the biggest mine owners, but also chinese immigrants are setting up shops and factories, shops to retail chinese goods, and factories to send semi finished minerals back to china, for completion and value addition.

it may be of surprise to many, that today's top european brands, which are still made in europe, ie mostly in italy, are made by chinese labourers and chinese sub contractors. milan will have no fashion shoes or couture, had it not been for chinese immigrants.

chinese-workers-trafficked-into-italy-s-garment-factories

china has this huge underbelly of poverty in the provinces, but is going about in a big way, and ruthlessly to change the habits of its rural citizens, so that they too can become consumers of chinese factories. china, with trillions of potentially worthless dolla, is now looking to creating an internal market as big as its export and thus rid itself of dependency on the west and also on exports.

re foreign policy and external relations, i am still waiting for china to slip up once. and when that happens, i will start believing, that the west's duplicity and cunning will eventually cause china's promotion to #1. that china will be a force to be reckoned for the long term future, there is no doubt. the future for that, is already here. right now. i think so anyway.

it must be remembered, that the chinese pla was clobbered by a battle hardened vietnamese army in the late 70 or early 80s over a border dispute. so the pla will not wag its tail on that southern border. i suspect there will be more wagging on our himalayan border, just to keep our newspapers and politicians excited, and give hope to pakistan of a india humiliation. it is best we settle borders with china and dont talk about retrieving territory lost. if we can do so with bangla desh, it is all the more important that we keep peace with china.

Dear K,

You know more about china but I have a few doubts.

1. Do you think China can afford to change its rural populace to become consumers of various chinese factories, without suffering a set-back in the international arena as the world's supplier? Can it generate the money for such internal consumption without selling off its USD bonds?

2. Of course China will wag its tail only in the India-China border. That is because it knows India is weak in its own way. But do you think it will ever honour any commitment to any border demarcation?
 
funny reads, intriguing undercurrents between 231 & 232.

corruption and caste are just tags. similar tags can be found in economic-depression and donations.

holistic thoughts tell me u abolish something u open up a worse box, pretty much like the underworld don who was abolished in Dublin few decades ago and a new one came up who was even worse.

Corruption and caste are mere tags only if one is looking at these from a distance, just as AIDS or Plague are also mere tags when viewed from far. Once it is face to face with you, or you are under it - like caste - the situation becomes very very different. Caste in this forum is a perennial issue and one will be able to swim across, unattacked and unswallowed by the crocodiles, only if one can sing hallelujas to brahins and brahminism. Just as I said in respect of the hindu scriptures being inerrant and giving very superhuman knowledge (which you will know only if it is learned with "adequate background, attitude, and effort" and "being properly guided"), brahmins, for the purposes of this forum are without even an iota of blemish of any sort, and are the most superlative in all desirable human qualities. Plus they are almost always of saatvik temperament except when they choose to be otherwise, like drinking coffee and such.

Please don't take these as funny; these are sincere and serious points.
 
Dear K,

You know more about china but I have a few doubts.

1. Do you think China can afford to change its rural populace to become consumers of various chinese factories, without suffering a set-back in the international arena as the world's supplier? Can it generate the money for such internal consumption without selling off its USD bonds?

Dear Sangom, frankly I don't know. But if we go by what China has been doing the past 30 years, iron handedly ruthless in its pursuit of technology and progress, and sacrficing the rewards of the labour for two generations of primarily rural folks, China now has no choice but to ameliorate the lot of the villagers. Otherwise face uncontrollable riots and uprisings. There is only so much that a populace, even when fed on propaganda, will swallow.

If you could spare 50+ minutes and watch this BBC video below, you can see the ruthlessness involved in tearing apart a whole village, with a right amount of carrot and stick. All over China this is done. I was in Beijing a few years ago, and had no concept of the hugeness and modernity of the city. More skyscrapers than New York city and not one slum. The old hutongs have all been razed in the name of progress, and a couple of them have been preserved as tourist attractions. So much uniformity of huge modernity without character of a thousand year old city. Feels very weird and scary.

Yes, I think, if China can do what they continue to do what they are doing now, without foreign distractions, they may be able to pull of yet another miracle ie spread the wealth to the countryside, and emulate more the Indian economy ie use the large internal market to satisfy the products from the factory. Let us see.

[video=youtube;4z1sGIRPjeY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4z1sGIRPjeY[/video]

This video is taken over 6 years during which period a small ancient village White Horse, is demolished and incorporated into greater Chonquing. The issues of compensation, loss of life, corruption, educational opportunities for the children, and overall betterment of quality of life.... all are addressed and the speed of change is indeed impressive. Whether it will be sustaining and long lasting, is anyone's guess. But we cannot but dream of such changes in India. Am I envious? Ofcourse!!

2. Of course China will wag its tail only in the India-China border. That is because it knows India is weak in its own way. But do you think it will ever honour any commitment to any border demarcation?

I see no reason why China India can have a public agreement re the borders. We may have to give in some as we are in a weak positon. But once done, it is an international border and we should be rid of the only irritant between us. Having agreed that Tibet is part of China ofcourse, already :)
 
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Corruption and caste are mere tags only if one is looking at these from a distance, just as AIDS or Plague are also mere tags when viewed from far. Once it is face to face with you, or you are under it - like caste - the situation becomes very very different. Caste in this forum is a perennial issue and one will be able to swim across, unattacked and unswallowed by the crocodiles, only if one can sing hallelujas to brahins and brahminism. Just as I said in respect of the hindu scriptures being inerrant and giving very superhuman knowledge (which you will know only if it is learned with "adequate background, attitude, and effort" and "being properly guided"), brahmins, for the purposes of this forum are without even an iota of blemish of any sort, and are the most superlative in all desirable human qualities. Plus they are almost always of saatvik temperament except when they choose to be otherwise, like drinking coffee and such.

Please don't take these as funny; these are sincere and serious points.

Sri Sangom
Inerrancy of certain teaching has to be discovered by a student - some teachers may advocate inerrancy as a starting point so students make full effort to learn.

Anyone that takes the teachings as preachings cannot make progress in the long run.

The words you highlighted in blue font apply to learning anything that is worthwhile. I do not know what is superhuman knowledge so I cannot comment on that.

The above statements have nothing to do with anyone calling themselves as Brahmins.
 
.....The choice is entirely yours. I have not asked you to put a sock nor asked you to tone down. To post or to stop is your own decision.
Praveen this is a tautology, of course it is my choice to continue to post or not, unless as the owner of this site you ban my ID.
 
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