Brahmins and Jews

[kunjuppu]

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I don't clearly get what is sought to be conveyed by the word "today's constituents". But I do believe that the Law of Karma, both the individual's and collective Karma of groups, populations, countries and even the whole word population's, is much beyond anyone's grasp - including the imagined powers of imagined gods. This Law of Karma is the ultimate justice-keeper and leveller and possibly what the Rigveda called "rtam". It works its way, whether we have complaints about its mode or not. Hence we have the position obtaining now - which appears to you to be "wrong against today's constituents" - will last till that Law changes. If brahmins could enjoy social supremacy for a few millennia, may be the BCs, OBCs, MBCs, SCs & STs will enjoy some preferences for a few centuries at least till the phenomenon called "castes" disappears completely from among us.

dear sangom,

i dont know much about karma. but i do think newton's law about every action bringing forth an equal and opposite reaction. from what we know of the horrors of varna over the past centuries, it will take a few more, for the dalits to feel the wrongs committed against them righted.

i dont know where the middle castes who are the dominant castes today and their karma lies, but sure enough tambrams being vanguards, have experienced what may the reality of tomorrow in U.P or Bihar. i think in maharashtra, reservations and anti brahminism festered by the marattas, rule the day. no?

whatever it may be, all we can hope, is that the slow but steady move towards IC marriages, becomes a flood, and maybe our future generations are spared the ignominy caused due to the ill deeds of their ancestors.

surprising though, the caste cloth comes alive only in india. even the most ardent tambram, has no control over his children when raised in the west and soon learns to accept a marriage of his child outside of caste, judging by all the marriages i have witnessed here and in the u.s.a.

oh well!! i think our cry as to the basic 'wrong' due to affirmative actions, is not heard or will be laughed away by the indian political realities - whether it be congress or dmk or aidmk or even BJP. even in a modi government, reservations will be there, and also the gradual but steady push for the same in private sector.

i have in my days, seen many dumbo brahmin guys, 35 years ago, who did not even graduate, but thanks to dad's connections secured good jobs in banks, which in those days, was almost a monopoly of brahmins. nowadays, if you look at the top rankers in tamil nadu, amazingly tambrams are only one of the several groups represented...showing hard work and motivation are key to success.

still, when one sees the level of poverty and hopelessnes in the villages, and one cannot help understanding the need that these kids need to education, so that their generation can unwind from the cycle of poverty and near slavery to land lords. so much handed down baggage!!!

 

[sangom]

dear sangom,

i dont know much about karma. but i do think newton's law about every action bringing forth an equal and opposite reaction. from what we know of the horrors of varna over the past centuries, it will take a few more, for the dalits to feel the wrongs committed against them righted.

i dont know where the middle castes who are the dominant castes today and their karma lies, but sure enough tambrams being vanguards, have experienced what may the reality of tomorrow in U.P or Bihar. i think in maharashtra, reservations and anti brahminism festered by the marattas, rule the day. no?

whatever it may be, all we can hope, is that the slow but steady move towards IC marriages, becomes a flood, and maybe our future generations are spared the ignominy caused due to the ill deeds of their ancestors.

surprising though, the caste cloth comes alive only in india. even the most ardent tambram, has no control over his children when raised in the west and soon learns to accept a marriage of his child outside of caste, judging by all the marriages i have witnessed here and in the u.s.a.

oh well!! i think our cry as to the basic 'wrong' due to affirmative actions, is not heard or will be laughed away by the indian political realities - whether it be congress or dmk or aidmk or even BJP. even in a modi government, reservations will be there, and also the gradual but steady push for the same in private sector.

i have in my days, seen many dumbo brahmin guys, 35 years ago, who did not even graduate, but thanks to dad's connections secured good jobs in banks, which in those days, was almost a monopoly of brahmins. nowadays, if you look at the top rankers in tamil nadu, amazingly tambrams are only one of the several groups represented...showing hard work and motivation are key to success.

still, when one sees the level of poverty and hopelessnes in the villages, and one cannot help understanding the need that these kids need to education, so that their generation can unwind from the cycle of poverty and near slavery to land lords. so much handed down baggage!!!

Dear Kunjuppu,

I am a very strong believer in Karma. And I believe it will do justice in the very final way. Once in the past I had occasion to recount how just in one generation, one of the many children of a SC person (untouchable and had to keep prescribed distance from upper castes, even in my boyhood days) who lived in a simple thatched hut - just one room-like thing on the embankment on the border of rice fields, has become a very reputed brain surgeon and has become a prominent citizen of the Municipality. So, if a SC boy can achieve this in his lifetime itself, it only shows that basically these people were denied such opportunities in the past.

Though I am just an ordinary mortal, I believe that the reservations and "the dalits to feel the wrongs committed against them righted." may not actually be linked; the law of karma goes its own humanly inscrutable ways.

 

[SANDHYAV]

Dear Srvana,

Om.
That is infinite, this is infinite;
From That infinite this infinite comes.
From That infinite, this infinite removed or added;
Infinite remains infinite.

phylosophy is just happy read i think

(i.e. the emotion spikes a bit up and helps the IQ ?). FOR example this stanza makes u feel proud that there is some sense made out of nonsense years ago in the field of mathematics, from your geographical place of birth ( and i assume u should like maths and ur place of birth!!).

but IF the calculation is applied to ur income savings and expenditure, then u will probably in the streets.

commonsense is more important to keep EQ and IQ high.

 

[palindrome]

i dont know where the middle castes who are the dominant castes today and their karma lies..

Me wud not bracket all people under one category.. For example, there are some excellent doctors who happen to be brahmins...similarly there are some excellent doctors who happen to be non-brahmins......somewhere along the way, some people seem to have the capability, capacity, dedication, and willingness to better themselves irrespective of their economic status. They work hard, make luck work for them, and come up.

Can we say the ones who made it had good karma on their side? I'd say, maybe yes. When we look all around, there are people who made it, from various strata, are content with it, and carry on with life irrespective of their circumstances.

There are some general circumstances defining each one's attitude too. Here is an example of the middle castes. Some of my mom's cousins, believed caste is for everyone's well being and everyone must marry in the same caste. Now majority of them are desperate to get brides for their son; eventually it seems they cannot settle for same caste anymore.

Previously when other mothers conducted (arranged) inter-caste marriage for their sons, the same ladies had derided them..now having to face reality themselves, they are changing their attitude. Is this karma? I don't know. I'd rather think karma lays in the outcome of the marriage (ie., if the relationship stands good and keeps the couple happy or safe out of problems).

 

[கால பைரவன்]

I was going to stop posting further at least in this thread.

However, given the usual sly techniques (such as personal anecdotes on dumb and cheating brahmins) are being employed to keep the anti-brahmin torch glowing, I will, after all, take the opportunity to conclude my opinions.

Readers can please note that there was vehement denial of the fact that the reservation system is discriminatory by claiming that the forward castes have their own reserved category. Of course, once it was understood to be wrong, the discussion was very cleverly shifted away from acknowledging this communal discrimination; not that this was unexpected.

What does the large percentage of seats cornered by backward castes in open category mean? This is not something new. This has been happening for years and decades. It makes the very classification suspect, a good number of castes classified under backward are not backward at all and through their political and economic muzzle, these castes were able to keep their caste-based privelege intact. Of course, this not only impacts all the general castes, it also affects the castes that are truly backward as they are not able to take advantage of the reservation. I had earlier pointed out how several middle castes such as the Jats, the Marathas, the Gujjars are practically resorting to violent methods to get what they believe is their share of the pie. Invariably, they are accommodated at the expense of general category resulting in further erosion of quota allocated to open competition, with brahmins the most impaced. In essence, we have a mobocracy where certain castes who can mobilize mobs get their way. [Similarly, the muslims succeeded in getting their own share of quota at least in a few states, although because they are a much bigger block they have their own political strength]. Of course, there are several caste groups who don't have the strength, who cannot organize and their plight is only getting worse. This injustice would not happen, if the system is scrutinized and reserved castes that are doing well in open category are made to compete like general castes. This is the correct way of addressing the problem. Alas, the political power is with these non-brahmin upper castes. It is not a coincidence that these castes form the bulwark of anti-brahmins/anti-brahminists and in order to continue their hegemony , they shift the blame to brahmins, accuse them of all sorts of oppression and promote hate-mongering against them. Almost the same techniques of constantly resorting to varnas and DS are employed here also to justify this communal discrimination. However, Brahmins are lucky to have a forum like this where they can at least register nominal protest against such hate-mongering.

It is not true that communalism is decreasing. It is not true that caste discrimination is decreasing. Both are increasing. Almost all the political parties play this communal game protecting the interests of one caste or the other and of course protecting the interests of religious minorities such as muslims and christians. None of these parties are secular. The anti-brahmins/anti-brahminists who pretend to fight against casteism will not acknowledge this because a majority of them are beneficiaries of this caste/communal discrimination. I hope the brahmins understand the system for what it is!

 

[Nara]

KB, once again I have to take issue with the fact you never address your criticism to any particular individual, leaving me reeling, wondering whether I am the target or is it some other member, or is it some politician outside the site. Since you seldom fail to use very harsh language please name the individual at whom you target your vitriol. Basic human decency demands that you face your opponent when emptying out the magazine.

I understand your anguish with the grotesque casteism of upper caste Hindus. However, you are very narrowly focused on Brahmins and the cost they are having to bear, which I might add, and you may disagree, is very mild. I request you to broaden your vision. I don't have statistics on the ready, but I would be surprised if this is not true, namely, the median Brahmin family is much better off than the median of most dominant upper castes you are so much angry with. The poor Vanniyar has more in common with poor Dalit or poor Brahmin, but the poor are so exploited that the only way they can survive is to cling to caste solidarity or whatever little advantage they can eke out of their caste identity.

But Brahmins have no standing to complain in this matter. Brahmins are the prime defenders of the Varna/jAti system. They insist the Varna/jAti system is the divine order sanctioned by the ultimate authority of Vedas. My dear brother sarang says Manu was never followed in full and what was followed was guided by Acharyas. In other words, Brahmin Acharyas will decide what edicts to follow and what to ignore. All this will be seen as very convenient, cling to what is beneficial and ignore the rest. Further, what is even more egregious is the fact that the Acharyas insist that every word of the Dharmashasthras is immutable essence of Vedic teaching. If so, how come they get to choose what to follow and what to ignore?

Only if Brahmins jettison this kind of baggage they can claim the right to object to the casteism of the upper caste Hindus in public. Till then you have to nurse your wounds by venting in this web site primarily meant for Brahmins.

regards ....

 

[palindrome]

I was going to stop posting further at least in this thread.

However, given the usual sly techniques (such as personal anecdotes on dumb and cheating brahmins) are being employed to keep the anti-brahmin torch glowing, I will, after all, take the opportunity to conclude my opinions.

Readers can please note that there was vehement denial of the fact that the reservation system is discriminatory by claiming that the forward castes have their own reserved category. Of course, once it was understood to be wrong, the discussion was very cleverly shifted away from acknowledging this communal discrimination; not that this was unexpected.

Oh these allegations again. Maybe twisting, alleging, attacking personally out of context with monstrous depictions/descriptions is in the character. So no point asking you not to do it.

I did not know everyone goes thru open category first. There was no denial. I asked bcoz i did not know. When i asked the same in aarakshan thread, it went unanswered. But this time it was my luck that admissions are currently going on. Due to which TN government has put out the lists -- which I described in post number 176 with details. If i wanted I need not have made that post. I need not have provided those details. So why are you alleging like this?

Where did i "cleverly shift from acknowledging communal discrimination"? After i made post number 176, vgane posted a response to which i replied. Before I cud reply to Vaagmi's post, Praveen came with his "friendly notice". After which all discussion went in a different direction. Where was the communal discrimination topic even discussed next?

What does the large percentage of seats cornered by backward castes in open category mean?

They are not "cornered". They won it on merit. If a brahmin scores equally well, he too will get admission in the same manner -- in open category on merit.

For all your allegations, why not you admit that brahmins are not scoring above the cut off and hence not getting admission in open category on merit.

This is not something new. This has been happening for years and decades. It makes the very classification suspect, a good number of castes classified under backward are not backward at all and through their political and economic muzzle, these castes were able to keep their caste-based privelege intact.

Already described peasantization of tribals in aarakshan thread. If colonial records are to be believed, it wud seem people entered various caste ranks in droves. Lets take Vellalars for example. In today's vellalar group, how many were vellalars in pre-colonial days? Just because a tribal started claiming to be vellalar in colonial period, should he be denied reservations?

Just because various classes have come up in the post-independence days does not mean their socio-economic indicators were bright in the colonial and pre-colonial period. There were indicators instituted by the government to make such a classification. Simply by claiming no one got classified backward. We already discussed various commissions in aarakshan thread. To find if some have progressed far ahead and now do not require reservations, caste based census is needed.

Of course, this not only impacts all the general castes, it also affects the castes that are truly backward as they are not able to take advantage of the reservation.

To benefit the truly backward, creamy layer should be removed. Then the benefits of reservations will seep down to the most economically poor ones amongst a given caste.

I had earlier pointed out how several middle castes such as the Jats, the Marathas, the Gujjars are practically resorting to violent methods to get what they believe is their share of the pie.

For this, reservations as a benefit scheme, is not to be blamed. Its politicians and vote bank politics interfering with reservations. Btw, caste based census are required for this very reason. So that they cannot bully their way into the benefit scheme. Its good caste census is done. Lets see if their income standards makes them deserving of reservations.

Invariably, they are accommodated at the expense of general category resulting in further erosion of quota allocated to open competition, with brahmins the most impaced.

Sorry brahmins are not "most impacted". All forward castes who do not get reservations will be impacted if bullying and vote back politics mess with reservations.

In essence, we have a mobocracy where certain castes who can mobilize mobs get their way. [Similarly, the muslims succeeded in getting their own share of quota at least in a few states, although because they are a much bigger block they have their own political strength].

According to media reports, muslims are the poorest in India. Note these:
1) Muslims have lowest living standard in India: Govt survey - Times Of India
2) Where do Muslim stand in India

Of course, there are several caste groups who don't have the strength, who cannot organize and their plight is only getting worse.

Who are they? Surely they are not tribals, because there is a ministry for tribal welfare which takes social indices into account.

This injustice would not happen, if the system is scrutinized and reserved castes that are doing well in open category are made to compete like general castes. This is the correct way of addressing the problem.

Whoa!! Reserved ones are already getting admission under open category on merit. The whole point is brahmins are not scoring just as well and hence not able to make it into the open category on merit.

Alas, the political power is with these non-brahmin upper castes. It is not a coincidence that these castes form the bulwark of anti-brahmins/anti-brahminists and in order to continue their hegemony , they shift the blame to brahmins, accuse them of all sorts of oppression and promote hate-mongering against them. Almost the same techniques of constantly resorting to varnas and DS are employed here also to justify this communal discrimination. However, Brahmins are lucky to have a forum like this where they can at least register nominal protest against such hate-mongering.

Yes you are lucky to have a forum like this. Probably some are gonna get lucky by silencing counter voices. But please do not live under a fallacy that passing off falsified info will become acceptable to the general public (such as claims on dharmashastras made by vaagmi and sarang on this very thread or your claim that a jain niganthu composed after 7th century AD proves casteism existed in sangam period). Folks these days are rather well-informed; or know to find out something themselves.

Its kinda silly, if anyone says anything about such falsification, they become hate-mongers, anti-brahmins, and what not. To top it, you assign them with an objective such as "to continue their hegemony"; as if people like me hold political power of any sort. Oh cmon can't you reason without resorting to such canard?

Btw, if your lament is for political power, well brahmins are active in the hindutva lobby. Why not take a look at jayalalitha, mamta banerjee, pranab mukerjee, even rahul gandhi (a part-brahmin being the son of rajiv gandhi).

India had 5 brahmin prime ministers. Brahmins managed to occupy the prime minister's seat for 44 years since independence. Yet, this lament. Is it bcoz of reservations truly, or is it bcoz some brahmins are not making it thru the open category on merit?

It is not true that communalism is decreasing. It is not true that caste discrimination is decreasing. Both are increasing. Almost all the political parties play this communal game protecting the interests of one caste or the other and of course protecting the interests of religious minorities such as muslims and christians. None of these parties are secular. The anti-brahmins/anti-brahminists who pretend to fight against casteism will not acknowledge this because a majority of them are beneficiaries of this caste/communal discrimination. I hope the brahmins understand the system for what it is!

These are your opinions / observations. From my pov, the answer to this is in post number 142.

 

[palindrome]

KB, once again I have to take issue with the fact you never address your criticism to any particular individual, leaving me reeling, wondering whether I am the target or is it some other member, or is it some politician outside the site. Since you seldom fail to use very harsh language please name the individual at whom you target your vitriol. Basic human decency demands that you face your opponent when emptying out the magazine.

Me too wondering who KB means? Why he clubs all posters into one? I did not make a post on dumb / cheating brahmins, Kunjuppu sir did. I fail to understand why KB ascribes Kunjuppu sir's post to me. Even if KB did not mean it that way, that is how it will seem. Because he addresses the issue of reservations on which only I am discussing with him here. Yet makes comments on Kunjuppu sir's post in a common post without addressing which part is for whom. It makes me feel I am the target of his magazine. Am also wondering if KB thinks I am holding some sorta political power...oh my..

 

[renuka]

phylosophy is just happy read i think

(i.e. the emotion spikes a bit up and helps the IQ ?). FOR example this stanza makes u feel proud that there is some sense made out of nonsense years ago in the field of mathematics, from your geographical place of birth ( and i assume u should like maths and ur place of birth!!).

but IF the calculation is applied to ur income savings and expenditure, then u will probably in the streets.

commonsense is more important to keep EQ and IQ high.

I guess you have a point from how you look at things but just one word I beg to differ..the word "Proud".

That is one word I never use in my vocabulary.

Pride even for a good reason is still pride.
Pride is a limited feeling with actually needs a comparison to make anyone feel proud and if that comparison is not checked..it will eventually leads to prejudice.

It is better to use the word "Happiness" cos Happiness is not a limited feeling and can be shared with others.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

KB, once again I have to take issue with the fact you never address your criticism to any particular individual, leaving me reeling, wondering whether I am the target or is it some other member, or is it some politician outside the site. Since you seldom fail to use very harsh language please name the individual at whom you target your vitriol. Basic human decency demands that you face your opponent when emptying out the magazine.

I am making a set of general observations about the anti-Brahmins/anti-brahminists. If the shoe does not fit you, it should not bother you!

You seem to apply different standards - one for yourself and one for others on a regular basis. Next time you start a post with "you guys...", you might try to follow your own advice.

I understand your anguish with the grotesque casteism of upper caste Hindus. However, you are very narrowly focused on Brahmins and the cost they are having to bear, which I might add, and you may disagree, is very mild. I request you to broaden your vision. I don't have statistics on the ready, but I would be surprised if this is not true, namely, the median Brahmin family is much better off than the median of most dominant upper castes you are so much angry with. The poor Vanniyar has more in common with poor Dalit or poor Brahmin, but the poor are so exploited that the only way they can survive is to cling to caste solidarity or whatever little advantage they can eke out of their caste identity.

Your observation is off the mark. Anyone who understood my post can make sense of the problem I am describing with respect to the reservation system and who will benefit if the anomaly is corrected.

Although reservation system impacts all the forward castes materially, Brahmins are the worst affected because not only are they discriminated against, they are also being made scape-goats despite the fact that it is the non-Brahmin upper castes who are dominant and it is because of the lack of scrutiny the benefit does not percolate to the truly backward. Why should the Brahmins suffer discrimination and also take the blame? A poor vanniyar or a poor dalit still has some recourse whether it is reservation or other governmental support which is not available to a poor Brahmin.

But Brahmins have no standing to complain in this matter. Brahmins are the prime defenders of the Varna/jAti system.

Brahmins have as much right as anyone to discuss any issue including reservation system.

I reject the charge that they are the prime defenders of casteist discrimination. What the non-Brahmins perpetrate, the Brahmins have no need to defend.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

The reply in #207 makes me think that my post was not at all understood.

The problem with the reservation system is that there is no scrutiny of the caste constituents in a given group to see which castes are doing well and which castes are not. If the backward classes as a group can exercise significant dominance in the open category, it means the whole classification is suspect. The reality is that few of the castes dominate which makes the problem even worse because if these castes clobber the general quota, they will clobber the reserved quota also. If the benefits should reach the truly backward, the dominant castes should be reclassified as general and compete in open category only, leaving the reserved quota to the real underprivileged people. However, these dominant non-Brahmin castes in order to keep this hegemony prevent any sort of scrutiny. So more and more castes are resorting to public agitations and violence and demand their own share, which in turn is taken from the hapless general castes. The dominant castes were able to achieve this by promoting hatemongering against Brahmins, try to blame them for all the caste discrimination that happened and is happening in the society, something that happens in this very forum.

Some newspaper reports have been provided on the state of economic condition of muslims. There have been so many reports, studies, commissions etc on muslims. First of all, how come the economic condition of muslims alone is studied? Why does a secular government (?) discriminate in even studying the socio-economic condition of people? Now a person who understands what secularism means will naturally ask this question. Do we see the self-styled seculars asking this question? Okay, lets say the muslims are one of the poorest groups. How would reservation without any sort of creamy layer exclusion help the poor muslims? Does the govt differentiate between the mappila muslims who are one of the richest groups and a poor muslim from UP? From Sachar report we can see that muslims as a group has higher literacy percentage than hindus in TN. So why a separate quota for them? If one minority group (the muslims) are poor and backward, does that imply all minority groups are poor and backward? Why there are minority scholarships, MSDP incentives etc. All sorts of anomalies are there. It is said here that the system should not be blamed but only the vote bank politics. The fact is today the whole system has been reduced to mere vote bank politics.

A remark on creamy layer. In a country, where poverty level is pegged at few rupees per day, the creamy layer is set to several lakhs income per year (perhaps interested members can try and find media reports on who constantly oppose imposing creamy layer). Therefore, it is nothing but eyewash. It is not intended to help the poor. The caste census is also an eyewash because there is opposition to collect disaggregated data. For example, a dominant community (like the mudaliyar community) seeks to keep their reservation by citing aggregated data that includes underprivileged castes (like the Nari Kuravar) while at the same time, these dominant communities indulge in caste atrocities against these very same underprivileged castes. This is what is happening and we have a bunch of anti-brahminists indulging in generalized attacks on Brahmins. But if you were to criticize these anti-brahminists, you are required to be very specific! Some equanimity this!

The remark about caste of those wielding political power is completely out of depth. Perhaps, members should see which castes benefit from a given rule and assign caste of the ruler accordingly. After all, this is the logic they use in assigning blame when it comes to scriptures. The ex-Brahmin members may better be beware. Tomorrow, you might be shown your place notwithstanding your ardent support for anti-Brahmins!

 

[tks]

A friendly suggestion for anyone interested in self growth as their main focus.

1. 'Brahmins by birth' is just an identity. Everyone is entitled to their identity with feelings of healthy self esteem
2. It is immature in my view to insult or insinuate someone for their birth identity on which they had no control over.
3. Any kind of generalization with an intent to insult is prejudice. If you are allergic to the word Brahmins why do you want to come to a site that is called Tamil Brahmins, interact with those that call themselves Brahmins with their heritage being Brahminism. ( By the way derogatory definition of Brahminism is by those that are not Brahmins, so using that against those that call themselve Brahmins in this forum is immature ).
4. Almost all those calling themselves Brhamins here are not prejudiced against non-brahmins (and vice versa) in my view. Except for a few troubled individuals no one really cares to talk about putting down anyone here.
5. Supremacist is a label - such labeling responses are often used by those with fundamentalist bent to reduced the other human being(s) into an entity that can be abused. Labeling is prejudice and hence immature.
6. Most people think they are unique - that is being a human. If someone says they are the best that is being human. Unless they enjoy power to hurt others anyone feeling supreme is only being human
7. One has to be narrow minded to think the world cannot have supreme attributes in many categories in many people. Even if many people feel they are the best in the world , so what? When a religious jewish person says 'Jews are chosen people' it does not diminish any of us in anyway. But one has to be mature to understand this.

Now the main suggestion:

If anyone wants to truly gain maturity and grow - Hindu scriptures teach timeless principles applicable to all human being and the method of teaching ensures results. This is something one has to discover for oneself.

If one is interested in understanding how planes fly they have to learn the science which starts with Newton's laws. Finding out and arguing about if Newton was a vegetarian and what apples he ate cannot help one to learn the science.

Way too much focus in History is for losers if one is interested in self growth.

 

[praveen]

Since this is not in red, i feel, this is a suggestion not as a moderator, so i can post this.

If you feel my above post has anti-brahmin tirade in it, please let me know where. I suppose this refers to my reply to vgane. I have made some additions to that post and edited some spelling errors.

If this post was made as a moderator, please feel free to delete this post and my reply to vgane above.

The post was made as a moderator. But i am letting the posts stay for the sake of clarity.

Palindrome -- I wish to express my support for you in public. I feel really very sorry that you are unfairly being singled out. I don't know whether it is because you are a woman, or you are not a Brahmin, or perhaps both, none of these guys have any respect for your erudition. Their answers to your cogent arguments are personal put downs, unwanted advice, and vicious personal attacks. All these show moral lapse as far as I am concerned. If the object is to silence the opposing voices they are succeeding.

Praveen, emboldened by the color of the font I venture to ask for some clarifications. What messages do you think are anti-brahmin? This is very unclear. In this case it looks like a vigorous defence of reservation system is seen as anti-Brahmin. As one who writes along similar lines I would like to know what topics would be deemed anti-Brahmin.

This "friendly notice" is rather harsh! I don't know why Palindrome is being singled out. Why are the perpetrators of regular vicious personal attacks against her do not get public "friendly notice"? Why is it relevant that she is not brahmin? I also consider myself not a Brahmin and would like others to see me as not a Brahmin, and do I also need to put a sock in it, stop completely?

Praveen, if you want to be impartial I request you to withdraw this rather one-sided and harsh rebuke against Palindrome.

Thank you ....

Naraji,
to both of the messages above, frankly speaking this is something that does not and should not concern you. From where i stand, you are simply being pulled into an argument that is not yours. The anti-brahmin tirade remark is not based on what has been posted in this thread, rather it is an observation of things before and now.

There are and have been various things that not all members will know and need to know. My comments, though they need not be explained, have been understood incorrectly by you. Palindrome is not being singled jsut because she posted in this thread or people did not agree with her or whatever. It is rather an overall observation.

I also consider myself not a Brahmin and would like others to see me as not a Brahmin, and do I also need to put a sock in it, stop completely?

The choice is entirely yours. I have not asked you to put a sock nor asked you to tone down. To post or to stop is your own decision.

 

[SANDHYAV]

Proud

the twitter reply for Proud = Proud bone in the forehead- u r obviously thinking more coz of big frontal lobe!

 

[palindrome]

I am making a set of general observations about the anti-Brahmins/anti-brahminists. If the shoe does not fit you, it should not bother you!

If you are making general observations on anybody (who you imagine are anti-brahmanists), why not make it general really. Why comment on one person's post and ascribe it to another? Simply claiming if shoe does not fit holds no reason. Its like saying, I will allege what I want but the other should figure out if I meant him or not. Its silly really..

Although reservation system impacts all the forward castes materially, Brahmins are the worst affected because not only are they discriminated against, they are also being made scape-goats despite the fact that it is the non-Brahmin upper castes who are dominant and it is because of the lack of scrutiny the benefit does not percolate to the truly backward. Why should the Brahmins suffer discrimination and also take the blame? A poor vanniyar or a poor dalit still has some recourse whether it is reservation or other governmental support which is not available to a poor Brahmin.

I reject the charge that they are the prime defenders of casteist discrimination. What the non-Brahmins perpetrate, the Brahmins have no need to defend.

When a tribal becomes a vellalar, he will hold on to his new found caste identity tightly, as it places him in a better position socially. Those already in a better social position too held onto their caste tightly, or tried to climb to the next level in the varna hierarchy. This is how it was in the colonial period. So, folks our grandparents generation (who lived in the colonial period) drilled caste pride into the head of our parents generation. This is the casteism we see today everywhere; be it BCs, MBCs, etc.

Since policies were designed based on caste, right from the British Government, people really fought for caste and varna. First it was Anglo-Hindu law and Hindu Personal Laws based on caste and varna. Then when India became independent, fights for higher varnas stopped bcoz no one made policies based on it. Only caste mattered. This gave a venue for politicians of an 'independent' country to make a vote bank. The citizenry also felt "i am so and so caste, i belong to this group, me and my group should get this benefit".

Folks (in their 60s and 70s) did not expect economic liberalization and modernism that followed. No one expected this age of information boom. Folks of our parents' generation are now facing their demons, of caste, either by reconciling to uncomfortable information about their 'own caste' (or what they imagined it to be) or by reluctantly accepting inter-caste marriages. Either ways we need not bother about them. As such our kids think they have crazy ideas. Our parents' generation messed up with pseudo-secular policies based on caste. Now the challenge is what next?

In this modernist world, do you feel a former occupation identity called caste helps anyone socially? Look at all the interaction between people around. Caste is not much of a function; of daily interaction; anymore. In effect, it is disappearing. What reformists could not achieve, modernism did. Secular education, awareness, development in SET (science, engg, tech) did.

Since reservations were created (and happen) bcoz of caste-by-birth, don't you think its important to remove this unit of separation? Since we all are somehow combined under 'hindus', don't you think religion can play a proactive role? Don't you think reforms in religion impacting functioning social life, eventually plug politicians who use caste for vote bank politics? Remove the hindutva, secularism and communalism points from this post -- am keen to know your views how you think the playing field can become level?

 

[renuka]

the twitter reply for Proud = Proud bone in the forehead- u r obviously thinking more coz of big frontal lobe!

Nope...I have microcephaly.

 

[palindrome]

The reply in #207 makes me think that my post was not at all understood.

The problem with the reservation system is that there is no scrutiny of the caste constituents in a given group to see which castes are doing well and which castes are not. If the backward classes as a group can exercise significant dominance in the open category, it means the whole classification is suspect.

How does it become suspect? They scored well got under open category. Those who scored lesser got into reserved category. How is the classification suspect?

The reality is that few of the castes dominate which makes the problem even worse because if these castes clobber the general quota, they will clobber the reserved quota also. If the benefits should reach the truly backward, the dominant castes should be reclassified as general and compete in open category only, leaving the reserved quota to the real underprivileged people.

Yes you have a point there. I too was wondering if all go thru open category first, and if non-upper castes are performing so well, what is the need for a reserved category? Will look into this. I suppose caste census taken recently can provide a clearer picture.

Some newspaper reports have been provided on the state of economic condition of muslims. There have been so many reports, studies, commissions etc on muslims. First of all, how come the economic condition of muslims alone is studied? Why does a secular government (?) discriminate in even studying the socio-economic condition of people? Now a person who understands what secularism means will naturally ask this question. Do we see the self-styled seculars asking this question? Okay, lets say the muslims are one of the poorest groups. How would reservation without any sort of creamy layer exclusion help the poor muslims? Does the govt differentiate between the mappila muslims who are one of the richest groups and a poor muslim from UP? From Sachar report we can see that muslims as a group has higher literacy percentage than hindus in TN. So why a separate quota for them? If one minority group (the muslims) are poor and backward, does that imply all minority groups are poor and backward? Why there are minority scholarships, MSDP incentives etc. All sorts of anomalies are there. It is said here that the system should not be blamed but only the vote bank politics. The fact is today the whole system has been reduced to mere vote bank politics.

Did you read the times of india report at all? All religions were studied. Nothing to do with a 'secular' government.

A remark on creamy layer. In a country, where poverty level is pegged at few rupees per day, the creamy layer is set to several lakhs income per year (perhaps interested members can try and find media reports on who constantly oppose imposing creamy layer). Therefore, it is nothing but eyewash. It is not intended to help the poor.

Agree. Creamy layer should be removed.

The caste census is also an eyewash because there is opposition to collect disaggregated data. For example, a dominant community (like the mudaliyar community) seeks to keep their reservation by citing aggregated data that includes underprivileged castes (like the Nari Kuravar) while at the same time, these dominant communities indulge in caste atrocities against these very same underprivileged castes. This is what is happening and we have a bunch of anti-brahminists indulging in generalized attacks on Brahmins. But if you were to criticize these anti-brahminists, you are required to be very specific! Some equanimity this!

So Mudaliyars are including Nari Kuravar in data pertaining to them?? Well, well, this is new. Can you elaborate on it?

 

[palindrome]

Oh wish I had seen the post by Praveen earlier, I would not have replied to Kalabhairava. Looks like the post was made when I was typing out the reply to KB. Anyways, will let my replies to KB stand (praveen, feel free to delete them if you wish). KB, i may not be able to reply to you though.

I thank Praveen for posting the message openly. So readers can also know where each stands.

 

[கால பைரவன்]

Palindrome, I appreciate the sober posts #215 and #217. There are also some good points in it. However as I am busy, I will reply in a day or two.

 

[palindrome]

Kalabhairava, I may not be able to login in a day or two. However, rest assured, will read your post.

@TKS, you have given the same advice of post 212 earlier too, albeit in bits here and there -- nice of you to repeat it here; putting all into one post. Appears you yourself follow it perfectly, have matured completely, have attained self-growth and are a great winner. Hence, such posts from you. Made my day really....

 

[Vaagmi]

whatever it may be, all we can hope, is that the slow but steady move towards IC marriages, becomes a flood, and maybe our future generations are spared the ignominy caused due to the ill deeds of their ancestors.

A midsummer night's dream of a lonely PIO (person of Indian Origin) in a distant land. LOL.

surprising though, the caste cloth comes alive only in india. even the most ardent tambram, has no control over his children when raised in the west and soon learns to accept a marriage of his child outside of caste, judging by all the marriages i have witnessed here and in the u.s.a.

The hormones and their tyranny. The availability of eligible matches being what it is and the cultural values picked up being what they are, there can not be any surprise. Rather the surprise should be when a girl/boy of Indian origin brought up in a foreign country stubbornly sticks to her/his ancient culture and looks for a match from his/her home country.

oh well!! i think our cry as to the basic 'wrong' due to affirmative actions, is not heard or will be laughed away by the indian political realities - whether it be congress or dmk or aidmk or even BJP.

So what. We should all stop posting here about reservations and instead talk about how to make a mule fertile?

even in a modi government, reservations will be there, and also the gradual but steady push for the same in private sector.

Midsummer night's dream continuing. Act I Scene II. LOL.

i have in my days, seen many dumbo brahmin guys, 35 years ago, who did not even graduate, but thanks to dad's connections secured good jobs in banks, which in those days, was almost a monopoly of brahmins. nowadays, if you look at the top rankers in tamil nadu, amazingly tambrams are only one of the several groups represented...showing hard work and motivation are key to success.

Poor chaps. Those dumbos did not know that their BC/OBC/MBC et al brothers were all usurping large tracts of fertile land in rural India, forcibly throwing out the erstwhile land owners, carefully weaving a cock and bull story of brahmin atrocities and building up an elaborate game plan to sell hatred opiate and build a political empire with the strength and support of the addicts.

still, when one sees the level of poverty and hopelessnes in the villages, and one cannot help understanding the need that these kids need to education, so that their generation can unwind from the cycle of poverty and near slavery to land lords. so much handed down baggage!!!

Midsummer night's dream Act I Scene III. The BC/OBC politicians will never allow that to happen. You are asking them to commit a harakiri. They love their life as much as they love their concubines and wealth.

 

[sarang]

Why willing and committed brahmanas should give up their birthright? This world and forum will be a better place to live, visit, relax and enjoy, if they, who claim to have jettisoned virtuous brahminhood, mind their own business and spew venom and abuse in DK meetings and karuppu sattai forums where they will be welcomed as messiahs, thayagam thirumbiya thalaivar, embraced as anna or thambi, garlanded and fed to physical and mental satiation.

Looking for brotherhood or camraderie elsewhere is foolishness when it is not welcome.

Only if Brahmins jettison this kind of baggage they can claim the right to object to the casteism of the upper caste Hindus in public. Till then you have to nurse your wounds by venting in this web site primarily meant for Brahmins.

regards ....

 

[Vaagmi]

post #217:

So Mudaliyars are including Nari Kuravar in data pertaining to them?? Well, well, this is new. Can you elaborate on it?

There is nothing new about it. Only the human memory appears to be short. Narikuravars are not in the ST list though there has been a demand for it for long. They lack the numbers perhaps to press for it and get it. So Mudaliyars (there are any number of subcastes in this category) who claim to be BC and MBC claim the benefits along with narikuravas. Similarly the Reddys who are not ST by any stretch of imagination, claim that they are STs because there is a very small nomadic community called Konda reddy living somewhere in the Andhra's hills. Thus a Reddiar who owns theatres and lends money to film makers claims reservation benefits for his son producing a certificate that he is a konda reddy. Every BC community plays this trick. It is a great Indian show of the absurdity.

 

[palindrome]

post #217:



There is nothing new about it. Only the human memory appears to be short. Narikuravars are not in the ST list though there has been a demand for it for long. They lack the numbers perhaps to press for it and get it. So Mudaliyars (there are any number of subcastes in this category) who claim to be BC and MBC claim the benefits along with narikuravas. Similarly the Reddys who are not ST by any stretch of imagination, claim that they are STs because there is a very small nomadic community called Konda reddy living somewhere in the Andhra's hills. Thus a Reddiar who owns theatres and lends money to film makers claims reservation benefits for his son producing a certificate that he is a konda reddy. Every BC community plays this trick. It is a great Indian show of the absurdity.

Oh really? So anyone can go to a tashildar's office, claim he belongs to narikurava, mudaliyar, reddy and get a BC certificate. Nobody will ask for documents of applicant's parents or grandparent. There won't be official verification. So its just claim and get. Nice. If this was possible every brahmin wud get a certificate claiming he is a mudaliyar BC. But alas, it seems only brahmins are singled out for discrimination. So the tamil brahmin goes to karnataka, pays hefty bribes there to get a BC certificate. Nice.

 

[Vaagmi]

KB, once again I have to take issue with the fact you never address your criticism to any particular individual, leaving me reeling, wondering whether I am the target or is it some other member, or is it some politician outside the site. Since you seldom fail to use very harsh language please name the individual at whom you target your vitriol. Basic human decency demands that you face your opponent when emptying out the magazine.

I understand your anguish with the grotesque casteism of upper caste Hindus. However, you are very narrowly focused on Brahmins and the cost they are having to bear, which I might add, and you may disagree, is very mild. I request you to broaden your vision. I don't have statistics on the ready, but I would be surprised if this is not true, namely, the median Brahmin family is much better off than the median of most dominant upper castes you are so much angry with. The poor Vanniyar has more in common with poor Dalit or poor Brahmin, but the poor are so exploited that the only way they can survive is to cling to caste solidarity or whatever little advantage they can eke out of their caste identity.

Even by statistics, there is no equivalency between the median of brahmins and the median of most dominant upper castes. So the comparison does not make sense. The poor, if they find they can survive only by clinging to caste solidarity can do that in other ways than joining a chorus which abuses brahmins and puts the onerous responsibility for casteism on their shoulders in the name of some funny and specious intellectual justification.

But Brahmins have no standing to complain in this matter. Brahmins are the prime defenders of the Varna/jAti system. They insist the Varna/jAti system is the divine order sanctioned by the ultimate authority of Vedas.

Brahmins are the defenders just as the vanniyars are; the thevars are; the mudaliyars are; and the naidus and gounders are. With just one difference. Brahmins when they say it is a divine order sanctioned by vedas, they have no atrocities in mind or the burning of huts and raping of women in their mind. Others have just that in mind.

My dear brother sarang says Manu was never followed in full and what was followed was guided by Acharyas. In other words, Brahmin Acharyas will decide what edicts to follow and what to ignore. All this will be seen as very convenient, cling to what is beneficial and ignore the rest. Further, what is even more egregious is the fact that the Acharyas insist that every word of the Dharmashasthras is immutable essence of Vedic teaching. If so, how come they get to choose what to follow and what to ignore?

Brahmins say vedas are immutable and not dharmashastras.

Only if Brahmins jettison this kind of baggage they can claim the right to object to the casteism of the upper caste Hindus in public. Till then you have to nurse your wounds by venting in this web site primarily meant for Brahmins.

Brahmins know what to jettison and what not to jettison. Thanks to brahmins' large-heartedness and maturity, anti brahmins come here to tell them what to jettison. Yeah, they allow these self declared anti brahmins to hurt them too.