Brahmins and Jews

[Nara]

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...Looking for brotherhood or camraderie elsewhere is foolishness when it is not welcome.

My dear brother sarang, you know a long time back my chittappa ... oh, you remember this story already. Sarang, I have some views that are unacceptable to you, and why should that affect your personal feelings to the extent you are always angry with me? Relax brother, let us be friends. Yes, my sympathies are with the black shirts, but that does not mean you are any less my brother than they are.

with lots of brotherly love to my dear brother sarang .....

 

[Nara]

....You seem to apply different standards - one for yourself and one for others on a regular basis. Next time you start a post with "you guys...", you might try to follow your own advice.

KB, I may do it off and on when I want to address all of you who get upset when I criticize Brahminism, but you do it all the time. This is very annoying especially when you use extremely harsh language. Why can't you name the target of your ire and then unload? What is the problem? If you want to call me a hatemonger I would like you to address me and say it to me straight. I don't think it is too much to ask.

I reject the charge that they are the prime defenders of casteist discrimination. What the non-Brahmins perpetrate, the Brahmins have no need to defend.

You may not defend dear KB, but unfortunately take a look around, take a look at this very site, and you see the many voices defending jAti pride. I have also repeatedly cited the view of the jagat guru whose words are treated as nothing short of the words of god, and you have ignored all that. Therefore, I submit to you my friend, you can't simply reject Brahmin responsibility for the rampant casteism.

Alright KB, please go ahead and have the last word.....

best wishes ....

 

[prasad1]

Yes Bali was sugriva's brother, so was Vibishana the brother of Ravana. In USA the traffic cop after ruining your day, would say have a good day, is that sincere?

 

[Nara]

.....Brahmins say vedas are immutable and not dharmashastras. .

Vaagmi, this is demonstrably false and I have already cited from written words of the Jagat Guru. According to all Brahminical acharyas, whose words carry more weight than lay Brahmins who enjoy every morning and afternoon the chicory laden sweet brown liquid that passes for coffee, the rules laid down in Dharmashasthras are the distilled essence of the immutable Vedas. If you don't like please do take it up with these Acharyas.

 

[Nara]

Yes Bali was sugriva's brother, so was Vibishana the brother of Ravana. In USA the traffic cop after ruining your day, would say have a good day, is that sincere?

Prasad, You are another one like KB, never face the person you want to duel with!!

What are you trying to tell, I am a Vali (BTW, it is Vali not Bali), in which case sarang is a monkey, or I am Vibishana, in which case sarang is Ravana? Please Prasad, all I am trying to say is let us not make these arguments personal. If you don't agree with what I am saying, that simply makes two of us, I don't agree with what you are saying as well. Neither of us is a hatemonger or worse, which is what KB, sarang, et al. keep saying all the time.

Also, sarang and I go a long way back, albeit in opposition, much before your time in the site. So, please, spare me your indignation ....

 

[prasad1]

Prasad, You are another one like KB, never face the person you want to duel with!!

What are you trying to tell, I am a Vali (BTW, it is Vali not Bali), in which case sarang is a monkey, or I am Vibishana, in which case sarang is Ravana? Please Prasad, all I am trying to say is let us not make these arguments personal. If you don't agree with what I am saying, that simply makes two of us, I don't agree with what you are saying as well. Neither of us is a hatemonger or worse, which is what KB, sarang, et al. keep saying all the time.

Also, sarang and I go a long way back, albeit in opposition, much before your time in the site. So, please, spare me your indignation ....

My comment was not in indignation. This was more in lighter vain, questioning the sincerity of statements. I wanted to add some smiley to soften my comments.

 

[Nara]

.... Just as I said in respect of the hindu scriptures being inerrant and giving very superhuman knowledge (which you will know only if it is learned with "adequate background, attitude, and effort" and "being properly guided"), brahmins, for the purposes of this forum are without even an iota of blemish of any sort, and are the most superlative in all desirable human qualities.

Dear Sangom, this is not funny as you have chastened to add. The highlighted preconditions not backed up by empirical evidence is the sure way of getting brainwashed. The religiously motivated are so deluded with the certainty of what their own religious doctrinaire texts contain, and its ultimate truth, that they insist those who refuse to go along lack adequate background, don't possess the right attitude and are not being properly guided. For every Hindu claiming the Vedas contain all knowledge there is, there is a Muslim making the same claim about Koran and Christian about the Bible. Vedas are no more inerrant to the Hindus as Koran is to Muslims and Bible is to Christians. Have you seen Zakir Naik's videos in Youtube?

The adequate background, attitude, effort and proper guidance that scientific education demands is backed up by empirical evidence, in other words, they have earned the right to demand these prerequisites for admittance into their academies. The so called religious scholars peddling ultimate truth, whether it is advaitam, or visihtadvaitam, or Christian sin and forgiveness, Islamic whatever, have not earned this right. All they can bank on is blind faith and tall claims of inerrancy of their preferred religious text. Having adequate background, right attitude and proper guidance in these religious evidence free doctrines is sure way to get deep into delusions of absolute certainty, as some have exhibited here with their high-priest-like pronouncements.

best ...

 

[கால பைரவன்]

KB, I may do it off and on when I want to address all of you who get upset when I criticize Brahminism, but you do it all the time. This is very annoying especially when you use extremely harsh language. Why can't you name the target of your ire and then unload? What is the problem? If you want to call me a hatemonger I would like you to address me and say it to me straight. I don't think it is too much to ask. .

It may look like that to you that you are doing this on and off in comparison but that is only because I am selective on what I write about here and do not bother about things like chickory laden coffee for example..

Second, it goes with the nature of my postings. when I write against anti-Brahmins/anti-brahminists, I am not writing against anyone personally and therefore I am not addressing anyone personally.

you have ignored all that. Therefore, I submit to you my friend, you can't simply reject Brahmin responsibility for the rampant casteism.

IMO, Brahmins can be held responsible for what they do, not for what others practice. This is quite simple for anyone to understand that I am feeling a little awkward that I had to write this here.

 

[palindrome]

Dear Palindrome,

All the major non brahmin upper caste FC communities like Mudaliar, Chettiar etc had a way out.....I agree with Vaghmi...

Look at Mudaliars...They are using the Vellalar /Sengunthar/Thondu Vellalar/Sozhia Vellalar etc bandwagon to become OBC..Agamudiars/Thuluva Vellalar are the richest land owning class very forward...Now they are deemed OBC

Look at Chettiars the land owning & shop owning community...They can easily get away under te category of Kotta Chetty or Elur Chetty or Pathira Chetty or Valayal Chetty or Kongu Chettiar or 24 Manai Telugu Chetty or generic Telugu Chetty or Vellan Chettiar etc

Now the old OBC's are now squirming...The clamour has started for declaring themselves as MBC
The churn & chicanery continues in TN under the garb of reservations

http://www.ncbc.nic.in/pdf/tamilnadu.pdf

Perhaps you do not understand Mudaliyar is just a title. Just like the title Chetty. Anyone can have it. What you quoted are different castes. Just because they have the title Chetty fixed to their caste name does not mean all are same. A nagarathar (using the tite chettiar) is not the same as a komati (using the title chetty); although for some of them, their forefathers may have been members of the same guild of medieval times.

Trading is an ancient activity. Clans and tribes of yore had traders amongst them. A trader of one clan was not the same as a trader of another tribe/clan. They professed different cultures. No sir, they are not the same caste, although in some cases some indicators may be common.

I do not know how many of these are seeking MBC. But thru chicanery it cannot be achieved. Not even thru violence. Politicians may try vote back politics; however they cannot do anything beyond a certain extent. What a commission recommends to institute finally that only becomes policy. Even the unlettered bakarawallahs (goat-herders) gujjars understood that.

 

[palindrome]

funny reads, intriguing undercurrents between 231 & 232.

corruption and caste are just tags. similar tags can be found in economic-depression and donations.

holistic thoughts tell me u abolish something u open up a worse box, pretty much like the underworld don who was abolished in Dublin few decades ago and a new one came up who was even worse.

Unfortunately holistic thoughts may assume it is holistic...while in reality it may be just a position from where you look at various things. If you changed the position, the visual may present itself differently. No one understands 'change' and 'fate' really. Tomorrow a meteor may strike and only tribals in remote parts of the world may survive.

Anyways, wanted to say a huge thankyou to everyone here. Despite all arguments, i learnt new things, like i did from Kalabhairava. My time here gave me insights, drove me to books and to people to know more. Sometimes it was a difficult challenge, sometimes it caused a quietude in the mind tough to give up. In effect, it has been a journey of discovery. The journey is ongoing; and will perhaps go on until the mind ceases. I hope to meet many of you in a new place in cyberspace maybe a few months later where everyone is welcome (where except spam, nothing will be banned).

 

[vgane]

Perhaps you do not understand Mudaliyar is just a title. Just like the title Chetty. Anyone can have it. What you quoted are different castes. Just because they have the title Chetty fixed to their caste name does not mean all are same. A nagarathar (using the tite chettiar) is not the same as a komati (using the title chetty); although for some of them, their forefathers may have been members of the same guild of medieval times.

Trading is an ancient activity. Clans and tribes of yore had traders amongst them. A trader of one clan was not the same as a trader of another tribe/clan. They professed different cultures. No sir, they are not the same caste, although in some cases some indicators may be common.

I do not know how many of these are seeking MBC. But thru chicanery it cannot be achieved. Not even thru violence. Politicians may try vote back politics; however they cannot do anything beyond a certain extent. What a commission recommends to institute finally that only becomes policy. Even the unlettered bakarawallahs (goat-herders) gujjars understood that.

Dear Palindrome,

Suppose you are a particular X community wanting to be included in the OBC list...You will go the Government and make a report on your socio economic condition with all reports, annexures etc etc...Now the Government who was to approve this has to verify this independently...The last caste census was conducted in 1931 by the British ...At that point of time people wanted to be placed higher in the caste hierarchy & hence overstated their caste...Do you think that the 1931 data is sacrosanct to decide the OBC category

Now with no caste data since 1931, the decision to grant OBC status is plain political...That's why I used the word that it is plain chicanery

The 2011 caste census is now put in the backburner...Understand that many castes have now understated their status (reverse of 1931) to claim benefits

Coming to your POV that 24 Manai Telugu chetty or Komati or Nagarathar are not the same despite they being called as Chetty's...It is like saying Vadama, Vathima, Brahacharanam or Asthashastram of Tamil Nadu Iyer or Niyogi/Dravida brahmins/Vaidiki or Vaikhanasas of Andhra Brahmins which are sub sects of Brahmins of respective states are not the same

 

[palindrome]

Dear Palindrome,

Suppose you are a particular X community wanting to be included in the OBC list...You will go the Government and make a report on your socio economic condition with all reports, annexures etc etc...Now the Government who was to approve this has to verify this independently...The last caste census was conducted in 1931 by the British ...At that point of time people wanted to be placed higher in the caste hierarchy & hence overstated their caste...Do you think that the 1931 data is sacrosanct to decide the OBC category

Now with no caste data since 1931, the decision to grant OBC status is plain political...That's why I used the word that it is plain chicanery

The 2011 caste census is now put in the backburner...Understand that many castes have now understated their status (reverse of 1931) to claim benefits

To point in bold -- really? For how long? Competition between castes is far too strong (made strong by politicians of each caste, that is). Caste X won't let caste Y get more benefits than itself, so eventually caste census will do its intended deed. Can't escape too long.

Coming to your POV that 24 Manai Telugu chetty or Komati or Nagarathar are not the same despite they being called as Chetty's...It is like saying Vadama, Vathima, Brahacharanam or Asthashastram of Tamil Nadu Iyer or Niyogi/Dravida brahmins/Vaidiki or Vaikhanasas of Andhra Brahmins which are sub sects of Brahmins of respective states are not the same

That's the prob with 'brahmins'. They do not make an attempt to understand a caste group for what it is. They view everything from (1) their own lens (2) the perspective of their acharya. Since 'brahmins' have replaced jati with varna, they assume a term indicating a trader (like 'chetty') means a varna; or that all traders are the same.

Sorry, your point is patently false; so is your comparison to vadama, vathima, etc (which btw are different castes indeed. But anyways, will leave that aside). Nagarathars are tamil shaivas and have their own rituals. They use the title" chettiar". Komatis are telugu speakers and use the title "chetty". Most Komatis are currently vaishnavas; as a group their culture is different from Nagarathars. Komatis and Nagarathars originate from different tribes/clans. Yes, in some parts they were affiliated to the same trade guilds. But not all Nagarathars were part of guilds, neither were Komatis. To make it simple, Komatis were jains. Nagarathars were Shaivas. I do not wish to explain tribes/clans here. But do read up fights between jains and shaivas to understand how culture was different.

Addition:
Sorry VGane. I won't be replying to your posts if you intend to address any post to me. Lack of a reply does not mean I agree or disagree. Just that, I won't be posting.

If you are truly interested in knowing about castes, i suggest reading colonial records. You may be surprised to know several folks created groups and transformed themselves socially either picking up or giving up practices / rituals; including madigas in a particular place,; these entitled themselves 'chetty'. I won't mention which particular chetty groups they created. Btw, 24 Manai Chetty is a different caste and Komati is a different caste. Elur Chetty is a different caste, Kongu Chetty is a different caste. It is a fallacy to think they are all same caste. Thanks.

 

[vgane]

To point in bold -- really? For how long? Competition between castes is far too strong (made strong by politicians of each caste, that is). Caste X won't let caste Y get more benefits than itself, so eventually caste census will do its intended deed. Can't escape too long.

That's the prob with 'brahmins'. They do not make an attempt to understand a caste group for what it is. They view everything from (1) their own lens (2) the perspective of their acharya. Since 'brahmins' have replaced jati with varna, they assume a term indicating a trader (like 'chetty') means a varna; or that all traders are the same.

Sorry, your point is patently false; so is your comparison to vadama, vathima, etc (which btw are different castes indeed. But anyways, will leave that aside). Nagarathars are tamil shaivas and have their own rituals. They use the title" chettiar". Komatis are telugu speakers and use the title "chetty". Most Komatis are currently vaishnavas; as a group their culture is different from Nagarathars. Komatis and Nagarathars originate from different tribes/clans. Yes, in some parts they were affiliated to the same trade guilds. But not all Nagarathars were part of guilds, neither were Komatis. To make it simple, Komatis were jains. Nagarathars were Shaivas. I do not wish to explain tribes/clans here. But do read up fights between jains and shaivas to understand how culture was different.

Addition:
Sorry VGane. I won't be replying to your posts if you intend to address any post to me. Lack of a reply does not mean I agree or disagree. Just that, I won't be posting.

If you are truly interested in knowing about castes, i suggest reading colonial records. You may be surprised to know several folks created groups and transformed themselves socially either picking up or giving up practices / rituals; including madigas in a particular place,; these came with with a caste name 'chetty'. I won't mention which particular chetty groups they created. Btw, 24 Manai Chetty is a different caste and Komati is a different caste. Elur Chetty is a different caste, Kongu Chetty is a different caste. It is a fallacy to think they are all same caste. Thanks.

The discussion started on Reddiar, Chettiars, Mudaliars who are actually FC becoming OBC....An FC chetty can claim to be another Chetty which is already OBC to claim OBC status...That is the point I am trying to make...But as Brahmins do not have any such option for that ..This is my POV...You have stated that other castes will not allow this..This is actually happening in not just in TN but all over India...But I am not interested in sharing details/filing a case as it will further spoil my relations with them/not in my behavior(genes) being a Brahmin...We have been brought up with the slogan Dushtanai Kandal Doora Vilagu

 

[sangom]

The discussion started on Reddiar, Chettiars, Mudaliars who are actually FC becoming OBC....An FC chetty can claim to be another Chetty which is already OBC to claim OBC status...That is the point I am trying to make...But as Brahmins do not have any such option for that ..This is my POV...You have stated that other castes will not allow this..This is actually happening in not just in TN but all over India...But I am not interested in sharing details/filing a case as it will further spoil my relations with them/not in my behavior(genes) being a Brahmin...We have been brought up with the slogan Dushtanai Kandal Doora Vilagu

Dear Shri Gane,

The question regarding castes & tribes in different parts of India is a very complex and abstruse area. Unless one spends a lifetime, perhaps one will not be able to understand the subject. Names or similarity of names does not mean anything in most instances. You may like to read, for a beginning, the five volumes of the book titled "castes and tribes of southern India" by Edgar Thurston—free download possible from 'archive.org'.

The government of Independent India has not done any such detailed study, any time; may be the GOI thinks that the local MLA/MP will be able to give the correct position with their knowledge of their local constituency and the taluk/village officers.

Hence, the overall position today is that many communities have a 'chance' to get themselves included in one of the categories like BC, OBC, MBC, etc., whereas no such "escape route" is ever possible for anyone calling himself/herself as any kind of "brahmin", because brahmins had been the "bhoosuras" or the divine beings on this earth for a far too long time and had not even dreamt that such an escape route might be useful for them in future. This is what I call the majestic way of the Karma Law which has its own way like that of the juggernaut and no amount of our protests in this forum with very elaborate analysis etc., is not going to be of any avail. Let us understand this simple truth.

 

[SANDHYAV]

Corruption and caste are mere tags only if one is looking at these from a distance, just as AIDS or Plague are also mere tags when viewed from far. Once it is face to face with you, or you are under it - like caste - the situation becomes very very different. Caste in this forum is a perennial issue and one will be able to swim across, unattacked and unswallowed by the crocodiles, only if one can sing hallelujas to brahins and brahminism. Just as I said in respect of the hindu scriptures being inerrant and giving very superhuman knowledge (which you will know only if it is learned with "adequate background, attitude, and effort" and "being properly guided"), brahmins, for the purposes of this forum are without even an iota of blemish of any sort, and are the most superlative in all desirable human qualities. Plus they are almost always of saatvik temperament except when they choose to be otherwise, like drinking coffee and such.

Please don't take these as funny; these are sincere and serious points.

thanks for quoting me. I am going to use u well.

at the outset:

I am not an idiot to think that this forum will not propogate brahm.... and tam.... Holistic thinking is the reason why my fingers did something for 10 min under this thread.

and my analogy is if thoughts from the holy holy quron can be used to an extreme level, so can any other holy book.

My common sense tells me blue FATHERLY MOTHERLY WORDS are like the BLUE ocean, which is as big as is music. if i am a drop i dont want to get into your south east cyclone.

it will be interesting to have face to face interaction with people who wants to fight about the caste system, apologies i will ask yama for some time in my next jenmam.... but again common sense tells me either
1. u r someone who has changed caste, or
2. someone who has not changed caste but doesnt like to be in that caste or
3. u do not belong to that caste
4. u r strongly into the caste and making some business out of it siruthozhil or perunthozhil??

good luck ( sincere word equivalent = BEST REGARDS )

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

You would agree that it is most difficult to be sattvic. If those who possessed those qualities were considered to be the most intelligent and were guiding the society, what is wrong with that? You really want wise people to lead others because such people look at the long term interests of the society. Such people also are able because of their mindset to consider the interests of everyone in the society. Contrast this with people and nations which are not guided by wisdom and possessed with selfish interests. These people cannot live in harmony with anyone who dissents with them and invariably bring about their own downfall. If people with other qualities were not guiding the society, it is exactly because wisdom is an essential quality for leadership. There is no point in grudging the brahmin dominance in the society of the past. You cannot say that just because the wise people had been at the helm of affairs for a thousand years, the less wise ones should take over now. That is not good logic.

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi, this is demonstrably false and I have already cited from written words of the Jagat Guru. According to all Brahminical acharyas, whose words carry more weight than lay Brahmins who enjoy every morning and afternoon the chicory laden sweet brown liquid that passes for coffee, the rules laid down in Dharmashasthras are the distilled essence of the immutable Vedas. If you don't like please do take it up with these Acharyas.

Nara,

The problem with you is that you consider the Acharyas as infallible(more infallible than even the vedas) while learned brahmins of the community (not the variety who have no time for acharyas or their words or scriptures- the week-end brahmins to borrow a wisecrack from you) know that they too are fallible. In the search for knowledge and truth I do not accept everything said by someone. You have to think about what is said and draw your own conclusions. Vedas are an exception because they are apaurusheya. This has been discussed here in detail earlier. I do not want to go into this again. I consider dharmashastras as a civil code based on the directions given in vedas. They were compiled to suit the times in which they were made and continue to be respected and followed because they appear to be suitable in mlost parts for the present times too. I think for myself and do not expect my acharyas to do that for me. I look up to acharyas only for guidance in what is said in Vedas. Taking guidance is different from blind following. A professor guides research scholars but I does not expect them to blindly repeat what others have done or what he has done already. That will be too much of unhealthy respect for him and will make him highly uncomfortable. If I were the professor I may ask the student to leave me alone and look elsewhere for guidance. If you have access to an acharya check it up with him whether he expects you to blindly follow him. The answer you get will be revealing. You may recall what happened between Sri Ramanuja and his Acharya Yadavaprakasa. Thanks.

PS. I choose not to comment about what you and your fellow residents in the US of A drink there frequently. I am sure you know what the communists of Kerala call the Cocacola which is the national drink of US of A. :nod:

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom,

You would agree that it is most difficult to be sattvic. If those who possessed those qualities were considered to be the most intelligent and were guiding the society, what is wrong with that? You really want wise people to lead others because such people look at the long term interests of the society. Such people also are able because of their mindset to consider the interests of everyone in the society. Contrast this with people and nations which are not guided by wisdom and possessed with selfish interests. These people cannot live in harmony with anyone who dissents with them and invariably bring about their own downfall. If people with other qualities were not guiding the society, it is exactly because wisdom is an essential quality for leadership. There is no point in grudging the brahmin dominance in the society of the past. You cannot say that just because the wise people had been at the helm of affairs for a thousand years, the less wise ones should take over now. That is not good logic.

Dear Shri Sravna,

I am not very intelligent when it comes to arguing with you, but it seems to me that in the above post there is more than enough mix-up of saatvic, intelligent, wisdom, etc. Plus you seem to take a radical departure from the brahminist friends here by admitting that brahmins with sattvic quality were "guiding the society", they looked "at the long term interests of the society", "consider the interests of everyone in the society" and finally also concede "brahmin dominance in the society in the past." I only hope that our "bashers of BBs" do not forsake you completely for stating such home truths.

If the above premises are accepted, just for argument's sake, it raises the following questions:

• If as you hold, brahmins were, in the past, guiding the society, looking "at the long term interests of the society", and by considering "the interests of everyone in the society", how come today we have found ourselves hunted by the reservation system?
  
• Is there any scriptural evidence which says that sattvic means "most intelligent"? (On the contrary the MaanDuka sukta of the rgveda itself mocks at brahmin vedic students repeating the guru's words just as the frogs croak after the first one croaks.)
  

 

[tks]

Since there are some people that have "liked" post #257 (which caught my attention with words I used elsewhere in the blue font) I thought I can provide clarification and extend my comments of my post #249.

Certain scriptures in the large body of work called Vedas embody knowledge that is universal. It means the description applies to all beings regardless of what they practice or how they live. Since it is domain of knowledge this cannot be preached into a person.

In order to understand anything worthwhile that is taught, one has to question everything and not swallow blindly what is presented. That is why all teaching - be it in Mahabharatha or Ramayana or Upanishads - are always presented in the form of Q&A. Obvious example is B.Gita where the teaching presented as a conversation. This is unique to Hindu tradition.

Hindu religion and practices often contain many unreasonable beliefs just like the biblical religions. In that sense most people are introduced to a lot of "blah blah" in the name of all major religions.

The main difference with certain practices of Hindu religions is that the rituals are based on repeating universal truths (often done by practitioners without understanding).

The ritual depend on the truths of the knowledge presented in certain Vedic teaching.

*But the Vedic teaching and Knowledge does not depend on the Hindu rituals* - They stand on their own.

It is only that the rituals are based on Vedic teaching and not the other way around.

My comments (quoted in blue by Sri Sangom) apply to learning all those that come under the classification of knowledge.

My own background is in STEM and management and I deal with facts all the time. Any little things I learnt was not by accepting or swallowing in these teaching but by questioning. I started with a view that all these are nonsense and after serious analysis found the accuracy and profoundness of the teaching.

You dont have to take my word for this - you have to discover this for yourself if you are committed to learning the truth.

 

[palindrome]

Dear Shri Gane,

The question regarding castes & tribes in different parts of India is a very complex and abstruse area. Unless one spends a lifetime, perhaps one will not be able to understand the subject. Names or similarity of names does not mean anything in most instances. You may like to read, for a beginning, the five volumes of the book titled "castes and tribes of southern India" by Edgar Thurston—free download possible from 'archive.org'.

The government of Independent India has not done any such detailed study, any time; may be the GOI thinks that the local MLA/MP will be able to give the correct position with their knowledge of their local constituency and the taluk/village officers.

Hence, the overall position today is that many communities have a 'chance' to get themselves included in one of the categories like BC, OBC, MBC, etc., whereas no such "escape route" is ever possible for anyone calling himself/herself as any kind of "brahmin", because brahmins had been the "bhoosuras" or the divine beings on this earth for a far too long time and had not even dreamt that such an escape route might be useful for them in future. This is what I call the majestic way of the Karma Law which has its own way like that of the juggernaut and no amount of our protests in this forum with very elaborate analysis etc., is not going to be of any avail. Let us understand this simple truth.

Dear Sir,

I don't think Thurston's books may help. All brahmins (on this forum; and most of them elsewhere where have met) assume titles are castes. But cannot blame them really. The phenomenon of 'caste-titles' are such. Moreover, it is compounded by a mindset of assigning varna to a jaati.

A nagarathar can neither claim to be a komati nor can he get a caste certificate based on it. But if an individual intends to commit fraud using bribery and political connections, he can claim anything (he can get a cert claiming to be SC Muslim).

Here the contention is fraud, not the local MLA's ability to give correct position. Most MLAs are uneducated buffoons surrounded by goondas (all paid agents). To hold their position they need to pay supporters. Its all about (plenty of) wealth. To earn such money they commit fraud. They earn doing such jobs (fraudulently issuing a different caste certificate).

If a common man finds another of his strata committed fraud, best way is to complain. Complaints will instill fear of getting caught. If everyone is vigilant, common man will think twice before attempting to get fake caste certificate. Nobody names the MLA. An enquiry is conducted on accused party to find out his real caste; that's all. His fake caste cert is confiscated; and he may be debarred.

Some people print fake caste certificates using clever computer technology. Forgery is also possible (just need to change name mentioned in the original; just as it is done on stolen passports). Various venues for fraud are possible. Once caught, accused party can give various excuses. Even if he names local MLA (if he has that much guts), not sure police will ever write that in the complaint. MLA can easily deny since it is only word of mouth. Finally, the accused will loose fake caste cert.

It is also a fallacy to think the average common man has straight access to the local MLA. Common folks do not have that kind of money to pay MLAs. Without enough money even relatives don't entertain these days.

I agree with you GOI has not conducted enough survey/research into castes. So any information on a particular caste on the internet generates good traffic (revenue thru ads is an added benefit)

 

[Nara]

.... Vedas are an exception because they are apaurusheya.

Vaagmi, it seems you are unaware of the inherent contradiction in this view. Vedas being aupurusheya and therefore they are inerrant is religious dogma and one comes to this view through acharya lineage. Yet, you reject another piece of the religious dogma, that Dharmashasthras are the distilled essence of the Vedas and not even a single word of it can be changed, also handed down by the same acharya lineage. On what basis can one accept the former as eternal truth and the later not? If one accepts the voice of the acharya as deiyaththin kural as most do why is it nor blasphemy to those who have faith in this kind of stuff to subject it to one's own flawed intellectual scrutiny?

Also, this vedas you say is aupuresheya and every word is immutably true, contains a boatload of inane and silly stuff, LOL.

Anyways, the contradiction is there for all to see and as I said before, this is a matter to be resolved between the faithful and their acharyas, I am just pointing it out.

PS. I choose not to comment about what you and your fellow residents in the US of A drink there frequently. I am sure you know what the communists of Kerala call the Cocacola which is the national drink of US of A.

I share the Kerala communist's view on Coca Cola or any other cola and other beverages (or are they sewerages) so loved by people not only in the US of A, but most of the rest of the world, including India, and Kerala. Yuk, how can anyone drink that stuff!!!

 

[Vaagmi]

Vaagmi, it seems you are unaware of the inherent contradiction in this view. Vedas being aupurusheya and therefore they are inerrant is religious dogma and one comes to this view through acharya lineage.

I look at it differently. Even though it has religious overtones and faith prerequisites, I am also convinced of it because I understand what is there in Vedas.

Yet, you reject another piece of the religious dogma, that Dharmashasthras are the distilled essence of the Vedas and not even a single word of it can be changed, also handed down by the same acharya lineage. On what basis can one accept the former as eternal truth and the later not? If one accepts the voice of the acharya as deiyaththin kural as most do why is it nor blasphemy to those who have faith in this kind of stuff to subject it to one's own flawed intellectual scrutiny?

Dharmashastras are of human origin and are fallible to put it simply. They are products of that alchemist called TIME created by the creatures of time. I accept the Vedas as apaurusheya as I understand the truth in that statement. It is not just because someone venerable has said so.

Also, this vedas you say is aupuresheya and every word is immutably true, contains a boatload of inane and silly stuff, LOL.

I am unable to agree with you. I have my own views on that "boatload".

Anyways, the contradiction is there for all to see and as I said before, this is a matter to be resolved between the faithful and their acharyas, I am just pointing it out.

I understand your point. I consider that vedas can stand any test-a test even by a non-believer included. Sometime it becomes a problem when a non-believer is unable to get down from the tree he has climbed.

thanks.

 

[kunjuppu]

Bo Xilai sentenced to life imprisonment

Dear Sangom,

I just found out Bo Xilai the ex boss of Chonquing and a contender for the highest power in China a couple of years ago, was sentenced to life imprisonment. The equivalent in India would be Digvijay Singh or Sheila Dixit. Such was this guy's influence.

Bo-Xilai

While the workings of the Chinese top rulers have been inscrutable in the past few years, once again, they have shown, that in order to retain power,they will do the needful 'sacrificing of scape goats'.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

I meant brahmins are wise. Being wise you are also intelligent and so there is no inconsistency in what I said. When I said the things I said I am just stating the truths. Brahmins indeed devised systems that took a long term view and the interests of everyone. The reservation system now exists because there are people who do not want brahmins to be at the top but what they gloss over is that they are doing away with the wisdom and maturity that brahmins bring in, in the guidance of society. I think it is the society that is a greater loser in this hounding.

 

[prasad1]

Dear Sangom,

I just found out Bo Xilai the ex boss of Chonquing and a contender for the highest power in China a couple of years ago, was sentenced to life imprisonment. The equivalent in India would be Digvijay Singh or Sheila Dixit. Such was this guy's influence.

Bo-Xilai

While the workings of the Chinese top rulers have been inscrutable in the past few years, once again, they have shown, that in order to retain power,they will do the needful 'sacrificing of scape goats'.

A small difference between Bo-Xilai and Digvijay Singh or Sheila Dixit is the inconvenient truth of conviction. I think it is very easy to sully a name (after all they all are public servants), but prove it is not easy.

The former Politburo member and Chongqing city party leader was convicted of bribery, embezzlement and abuse of power Sunday in a case set in motion by his wife's poisoning of a British business associate in late 2011.