Brahmins and Tamil society

[tanjoreculture]

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Thank you

I would like to thank the presence and effort of senior people like Mr. Appaiah in bringing out several sparkling historical facts.

I do not mean to bring bad repute to the Tamil Brahmin community if some younger people have thought so! I just wanted the airing of history at least as far as is documented in a kind and warm manner. I am a 'reader' by nature and tend to favour non-fiction. This an off shoot when I was a kid would sit on our thinnai on Saturday mornings discussing the Hindu newspaper. with my grandfather and his visitors which included an Iyengar retired hm, a Mudaliar retd Jt Registrar, a Chettiar who owned a decent sized factory and an Iyer who had been my grandfathers colleague as a tahsildar. I was more attracted to this 'crowd' than to the regular cricket match opposite our house.

I personally have lifelong Tamil Brahmin friends with whom I am very close. I should mention that till the time I left my home for college I too was never told my caste, I guess especially because we were Christians. But we were always taught to observe which ever tradition or ritual from our Hindu past which could be practised in our setting.

I have several other facts which I have read and lost references for which I would like to discuss in this topic and in this forum in general.

I hark back to the chola period because this period once fascinated me and I have read books which have transcripts of entire inscriptions of major chola period temples. I also believe that this period laid the foundations for current society. I will write again during the weekend or later as my work week is currently crazily busy.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri tanjoreculture Ji,

I am not young, but I did not take your postings as anything bordering on the offensive. For myself, a perspective from outside the 'clan' is always welcome. This sort of dialog is the only way relationships between men and communities can be forged.

Please continue your thoughts on anything that would benfit us all.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri KRS,

Thank you. I had made a spelling mistake. It should read Goebbelsian lie. you are right.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri anandr91,

Joseph Goebbels was the Propaganda Minister in Hitler's regime. He operated on the principle "A lie repeated over and over again is believed as truth by the people". He did succeed in his attempt. Interestingly, Goebbels's growth in initial days in his career was by telling a lie that he suffered a war injury, whereas it was only a childhood deformed leg.

His propagada technique of using lies as an important political weapon is being used by the rulers world over. The British used this in India to divide and rule.

The Justice Party particularly after the "influx" of EVR and his followers used this extensively. Later this was followed by the Rulers from 1967 onwards very effectively to continue the legacy.

The Congress put the blame for the assassination of Mahatma on RSS whereas it was the job of one person though it was not an organisational murder carried out by RSS.

The LTTE killed Rajiv Gandhi, but soon after the murder, the AIADMK and Congress in alliance used the Government power and media to picturise that Karunanithi was the conspirator. The AIADMK and Congress won the 1991 elections with a mojority never before won.

In the recent times, Jayalalithaa used her Government machinery and media to demonise the revered Shankaracharyas of Kanchi.

Such propaganda lies are called "Goebbelsian lies".

for more information please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan

Thanks for further inputs. You are right. The present day Indian Secular Politicians are more than Goebbels in repeating lies. In the days of Goebbels he was alone and therefore he could get the entire "credit" and the whole world even now relates to him whenever it comes across gross lies.

But these days, there are thousands of Goebbels in Indian Polity. It is difficult to give the "credit" to any single person. But one of the earliest in this process is EVR, later Indira Gandhi. It may not be out of place to mention here that her assumption of the office of the Minister for broadcasting in Government of India paved the way for "raising the importance" level of that ministry. Till then it was an "also ran" ministry. With that ministry, she became the next Prime Minister. The use of Government media in the Emergency days is another example of spreading lies as truth.

As to the Wikipage on Nepotism, it is a surprise that "India has not received its due place" even in this history!

Any one can become an editor in wikipedia and any one can insert the Indian "achievements" in Nepotism. If you desire you could also do that !!!

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Tanjoreculture

If Sri KRS said that he is "not young", I must tell you that I am "not old either" !

I was apprehensive that you might mistake my posts and after much thought made them as the fact have to be brought out. I could make out that you also had been a victim of the mischievous propaganda by the British. If a socialogist would research and analyse the antecendents of the Brahmins of Thanjavur, he would find that a vast majority of them would only be of very local origin and not any who had landed from the North. Even the miniscule minority would be those who went places from "North" Arcot. That would be the "Northest" part from where the brahmins would have come to Thanjavur. True some rulers went from "as North such as Hampi", as Krishna Deva Raya's representatives. If there are people from "more northern" parts, they would be the Muslims, who would have been the representatives of Bhamani Sultans or the Gilji's men. These speak Urudu even till date. There are the Saurashtra descendents in Thanjavur and Madurai districts even now. These came during the days of Shivaji and his representative followers. Interestingly no hatred was spread against all these people at all. The obvious reason is as I said the personal politics between EVR and CR to start with. Later encouraged by the success of this methodology, they adopted it on large scale to capture and retain power.

The fact that the thinnai news analysis was listened to by you somewhat confirms my hunch that you could also have been carried away by the mischievous propaganda carried out by the Justice Party, later the DK, DMK, ADMK and the like.

As to the Chola period, the end of it is around 1300 CE when King Veera Vallala conquered the entire area. Even the Pandia and Chera periods ended then. The beginning is not surely known. During Silappadhikaram days the Chera Pandia and Chola kings were there. People could move from one country to another without "visa" They did move and we have Silapathikaram.

I am happy that you would participate with more inputs. The healthy discussions that you engage in will certainly improve my knowledge.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji and Sri Appiah Ji,

Your comments about the 'marketing' of falsehood are right on the money.

But this creates a question, which Sri Nacchinarkiniyan Ji has raised. Who are the 'intellectuals' who are behind this and creating such mistruths to persist? The state of intellectualism in India is in a sorry state. There are pseudo intellectuals on one hand and there are sectarian intellectuals preaching for the primacy of their own sectarian views on the other hand. Except for a couple of people, who are borderline impartial, I don't read any views at all that do not carry a specific agenda to suit the respective 'intellectual's' thesis. I do not see any articles/write ups that discuss both sides of an issue and arrive at some thesis based on what is good for India as a whole.

The truth is there is no room for a measured judgement and views in India. If one speaks the truth one is liable to get death threats (I can cite various cases). Rushdie's book is still banned. This has become more and more a goonda raj.

Just some observations from afar.

Pranams,
KRS

 

[tanjoreculture]

Evolution of brahmadeya villages

Brahmadeya, Devadanam and Chaturvedimangalam villages are a very important development which determined the rural profile of tamilakam. There is ample evidence of Brahmins in tamilakam from the Sangam period and they were an important influence in Sangam literature but the evolution of Brahmadeya villages in the Chola period represents a ground change. My earlier generalization about Brahmin professions was intended to convey a class characteristic but I realize it was not totally accurate. One thing however - when I wrote 'tutor' I did not mean the tutor of today but as tutors to sons of rulers and as scholars.
The Pallavas are the first recorded to create Brahmadeya settlements to have religious and cultural centres with a central Brahmin community. The first recorded such settlements appear in the 600s. These were primarily as religious acts of the Pallava kings. In a Brahmadeya settlement scholars were honored with tracts of land to a group of families where the land would be tilled by tenant farmers and the produce would support the families involved. The Pallavas are generally believed to be of Andhra origin who adopted Tamil as state language mixed into the Tamil communities over time.
The Cholas as we know came out of their nearly seven hundred years of obscurity to defeat the Pallavas who were expending their energies fighting the Chalukyas of Karnataka. They were in the initially ardent in establishing Shaivism which was possibly their ancient faith before the rise of Jainism in tamil country.
The villages of this period in the 'marutam' regions were called 'oor' and were governed by local government bodies called 'nadu'. These nadus were very ancient agricultural guilds which possibly predated the sangam age and were composed of farmers and the leaders of these bodies were called 'nattars'. These guilds gave rise to local and regional chieftains. These chieftains gave rise to the ruling classes. The three tamil kings in the pre-pallava period were more like tribal chiefs rather than absolute monarchs. They had to play the nadus, nattars and the local chieftains with tact. Taxation and administration had to be negotiated with these bodies. There were actually elections to these bodies. The striking feature of the later chola period is how tamilakam evolved developing the features of a modern nation state. The brahmadeya villages played an important role.

 

[tanjoreculture]

Evolution of brahmadeya villages -2

I believe the number and role of brahmadeya villages were very limited upto the Pallava and the first period of Chola rule. The numbers I could gather for the pre-Rajaraja chola period indicate possibly around 25-30. During the reign of Rajaraja we see an exponential rise and by the end of Rajendra Chola's reign there were roughly ten times the original number of brahmadeya villages making it around 250 resulting in a ratio of 1:4 with the number of 'oors' which was around 1200. Pardon my maths.
This was a move planned and executed by Rajaraja himself the reasons are many. Primarily it was to open up fallow and forest land for agriculture and thereby increase state revenue. The second reason was to counter the power of the nadus in determining tax levels and in centralizing the administrative structure. The third reason was to support the expenses of the royal temples. Another reason was to establish centres of shaivate worship. There are instances were previous jaina centres like 'Ennaiyaram' were made into chaturvedimangalams.Though by the 12 century chola kings were supporting vaishnava, jaina and Buddhist temples, initially they were ardent shaivaites. Another possible reason was that the Chola king was lifted to kshatriya ,god-king and puranic status in the manner of their north Indian counterparts from just 'vendan' status by the Brahmin 'panas'. I know I am treading on controversial ground here. Please do not get upset with me.
The Brahmin communities that formed these new settlements came mainly from the conquered Pallava and Chalukya territories and from even as far as Varanasi itself. This is according to several authors such as Nilakanta Sastri, Burton Stein, Noboru Karashima, R.N. Jha and Sanjay Subhramaniam who are considered as respected authorities on the Chola period. The land was largely fallow land but in some cases they were 'kudineeki' where the previous owners were dispossessed. The process is similar to the incorporation of small farms into larger farms to form large single units.
The Brahmadeya villages came under the direct control of the Chola king. These were governed by 'sabhas' which administered the lands and paid taxes.

 

[tanjoreculture]

Evolution of brahmadeya villages- 3

Initially the lands were brahmadeya but very soon many were changed to Devadanam lands in which the theoretical ownership came under the temple. This I believe were technical moves by the ruler to increase his direct control. Then again many were tax free to start with but later were required to pay into the royal temple at Tanjore and also start paying direct taxes.
The reaction of the nadus to these developments seem to have been neutral and there are some nattar chieftains who established brahmadeya villages of their own. The people who composed the 'oors' and 'nadus' were vellalas, ratti-kulas (reddis) and maravars . They had names ending with velan, vellan and udaiyan. The chieftains had names ending with rayan. For the first part brahmadeya villages were exclusively Brahmin. But even within Rajarajas period there is evidence of pressure from the 'nadus' by the formation of 'periyanadu' assemblies. These were regional assemblies of nadus in the Cauvery and Tamaraiparani basins. These pressures led to resale of devadanam lands to 'nattars' and settlement of these people around the brahmadeya settlements. Thus was born our temple villages with a central agraharam with vellala, reddi and similar community houses near them.
There was conflict and compromise between the nadus and the sabhas and within a few generations they were working together fine with the usual politicking.This was an alliance which lasted for a very long time. The subsequent rulers the Vijayanagar kings, the Nayaks, Marathas, Nawabs and the British could not penetrate the land holding pattern. During a well documented rebellion in the early Vijayanagar period the 'Vanniyars' complained and violently rebelled against Brahmin- Vellala domination. This is another instance where the fluidity of the social structure of tamilakam is evident. The Vanniyars who wrote to the Vijayanagar king were not the vanniyars of today but the term just meant 'working class' it included tenant and subsistence farmers, some merchant chettis, sub-classes of vellalas, sculptors and even priests. There was no caste by the name of vanniyars then.
The brahmadeya villages allowed for 'larger scale farming' and created agricultural surpluses and wealth and large irrigation projects. They allowed for the incorporation of hill and forest tribe people who became agricultural labourers settling in 'seris'. These villages became the model tamil temple villages.
At a cultural level the older 'oors' still had remnants of a tribal-agrarian system that went back to pre-history and life did not include much of reading and writing. On the other hand the 'sabhas' had people who were mostly literate and expert managers. If you read the inscriptions of the sabhas and nadus you can sense the subtle differences of how these people saw society.
I only wish our society had not been so rigid with such maniacal rules about social purity with vertical splintering of the most important resource of any civilization – the people. Can we at least now plan making it easy for intellectually, spiritually, emotionally and economically compatible families to intermarry? I know I am just dreaming but I am not suggesting revolution, but if pragmatic people would take small stubborn steps towards feasible social integration then maybe we can bury this in at least the next thousand years. But then there is always a price to be paid for change – by those really practice change. Only if the religious authorities would support this…. Now I am fantasizing!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The Brahmin communities that formed these new settlements came mainly from the conquered Pallava and Chalukya territories and from even as far as Varanasi itself. This is according to several authors such as Nilakanta Sastri, Burton Stein, Noboru Karashima, R.N. Jha and Sanjay Subhramaniam who are considered as respected authorities on the Chola period.

With all due respects to the historians, there is no shred of evidence for this. In the land grant it would have been mentioned prominently if it was true. There is not even a single inscription or copper plate finding regarding this. If a Brahmin came from Varanasi or any other place it would have been mentioned in the inscription. Especially Rajendra Chola was famous for leaving a number of inscriptions.

As I have said earlier this theory of migration from the North was first propounded by the Brahmins themselves and later adapted by the others.

Had there been a single inscription/copper plate, it would have been prominently displayed/quoted by the Brahmins and others.

Most of the inscriptions/copper plates found all over India are the basis of our history. Most of them relate to grants to Temples and Brahmins. Tamil Nadu is not the only case. In Bengal the land grants form the basis for the history of migration of South Indian/Ujjain Brahmins to Bengal.

The historians of India especially Tamil Nadu always want to be politically correct as they were dependent on Government patronage. I do not find mention of the South Indian Sena dynasty ruling Bengal in any of the South Indian history books. Rajendra Chola invaded Bengal and defeated the last Pala king. The next dynasty were the South Indian Brahmin Senas. This is written in the history of Bengal. Is it not possible that there is a connection between the two events? Unfortunately all our historians had limited vision and restricted themselves to material available in their own region.

Again why is it that North Tamil Nadu especially Chola Nadu is taken as representative of Tamil Nadu? How about the Pandiya Nadu, Chera Nadu, the Kingdom of Ay and other smaller kingdoms all over the rest of then Tamil country (which included Kerala)?

வடக்கு வளர்கிறது, தெற்கு தேய்கிறது is applicable to Tamil Nadu. I am almost about fed up of Tamils and Brahmins from Northern Tamil Nadu talking as the only representatives of Tamils and Brahmins. They are only as representative of Tamils/Brahmins as a villager from U.P who thinks he is the representative of India.

Can we at least now plan making it easy for intellectually, spiritually, emotionally and economically compatible families to intermarry?

Not possible. I also thought that this would be an ideal solution when I was in college. It is a question of language, food habits and culture. Even now at the time of marriage Brahmins want brides/grooms from their own region like Thirunelveli, Tanjore, Palakkad, Arcot.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Tanjore culture

Namaskarams

I come across this theory perhaps for the first time. Can you please elucidate more with the source for these writings. There are more infirmities than firm aspects. It would be advisable to discuss history with exact period of the happening as this will help in ascertaining the veracity of the statements.

My doubt as to the authenticity of your last three posts arise because of the following premise:

The Pallavas are the first recorded to create Brahmadeya settlements to have religious and cultural centres with a central Brahmin community. The first recorded such settlements appear in the 600s. These were primarily as religious acts of the Pallava kings. In a Brahmadeya settlement scholars were honored with tracts of land to a group of families where the land would be tilled by tenant farmers and the produce would support the families involved. The Pallavas are generally believed to be of Andhra origin who adopted Tamil as state language mixed into the Tamil communities over time.
The Cholas as we know came out of their nearly seven hundred years of obscurity to defeat the Pallavas who were expending their energies fighting the Chalukyas of Karnataka. They were in the initially ardent in establishing Shaivism which was possibly their ancient faith before the rise of Jainism in tamil country.

As I had earlier posted, Telugu is in vogue for 1300 years and Kannada for 1000 years. There are some other research reports suggesting that Telugu as well as Kannada are in vogue since the 8th Century C.E. The earliest found poetry in Telugu and Kannada are of the period 8th Century C.E and hence this position has been taken by historians. Pallavas ruled the present day Kanchipuram, Mamallapuram and northern areas mostly the present day South Andhra and South Karnataka areas. The Chalukyas ruled the present day North Andhra and North Karnataka areas. But one thing is certain - prior to seventh Century C.E the entire Deccan was Tamil Land. With the advent of Telugu and Kannada the regions North west deccan became Kannada and the North east became Telugu land. Even this emergence should have taken centuries and only after many centuries the present position should have evolved.

The Old Tamil script was Tamil Grantha and this is the script in which all rock inscriptions are found in the entire Deccan if the inscription is over 1300 or 1400 years old. this clearly establishes the fact that there was no Telugu or Kannada prior to that period.

Again not all the Chalukyas and Pallavas are proponents of Shaivism. In fact, more of the Chalukyas and Pallavas were Vaishnavites. Anyhow, the King was instrumental in spreading either the worship of Vishnu or Shiva or Jainism.

Jainism in Tamilnadu was flourishing in and around 1 BCE or 2 BCE. Of the five epics of Tamil, Silappathikaram is a Hindu epic, Manimekalai is a Buddhist epic, Jeevaka Sinthamani and Kundalakesi are Jain epics, it is not certain as to Valayapati as the complete work has not been found and it seems to have been lost over the times.

 

[Saab]

I wish to congratulate Sri Appaiahji for his wonderful treatise. Sri Nachinarkiniyanji has also well stated that Tamil Brahmins have gone to South East Asia and helped in the spread of Hindu kingdoms.

Brahmins of Tamilnadu have played greater role in every turn of history including the fight against British colonialism.

In post-colonial India there have been two Presidents of India from Tamilnadu (three if you count Dr.Radhakrishnan who lived all his life in Madras and therefore should be counted as a Tamilian). I consider all of them to be Tamil Brahmins (anyone who has known Dr.Kalam - all of his close friends are Brahmins with whom he ate and walked and lived - will agree with me! Yet none of them asked for favours from him and that is the greatness of our community!) This is by far a great proportion in relation to other States of India.

I don't know if I missed any reference to Chanakya posted by our friends in this discussion. If I didn't miss it then it is pertinent that I point out that Chanakya was originally from Kanchipuram and his role in helping the establishment of Mourya Dynasty that it survived and prospered largely because of his law called "Artha Saasthram" is an important part of Indian history.

I am pretty sure the Tamil Brahmins are the ones who would be in the forefront in bringing back Dharma Rajyam. Sri Vedanthamji, working President of VHP, Swamy Dhayananda Saraswathi, Convenor of Acharya Sabha and Dr. Subramanian Swamy, President of Janantha Party have banded together and I am sure they have already defeated the attempt to break up Rama Sethu.

Watch my word: The power of Tamil Brahmins are immense!

 

[appaiah]

My replies to Sri Tanjoreculture continues...

I continue my reply to Sri Tanjoreculture's posts on Brahmadeya villeges.

One can infer the terms 'Brahmadeya' implying the settlement of Brahmins, "Devadanam" implying that which is donated to the Temples and "Chaturvedimangalam" implying those in honour of the four vedas or those who know the four vedas. Natural conclusion is that the Chaturvedimangalam would house the Vedic scholars who were only Brahmins.

Sri Tanjoreculture wrote:

I believe the number and role of brahmadeya villages were very limited upto the Pallava and the first period of Chola rule. The numbers I could gather for the pre-Rajaraja chola period indicate possibly around 25-30. During the reign of Rajaraja we see an exponential rise and by the end of Rajendra Chola's reign there were roughly ten times the original number of brahmadeya villages making it around 250 resulting in a ratio of 1:4 with the number of 'oors' which was around 1200. Pardon my maths.
This was a move planned and executed by Rajaraja himself the reasons are many. Primarily it was to open up fallow and forest land for agriculture and thereby increase state revenue. The second reason was to counter the power of the nadus in determining tax levels and in centralizing the administrative structure. The third reason was to support the expenses of the royal temples. Another reason was to establish centres of shaivate worship. There are instances were previous jaina centres like 'Ennaiyaram' were made into chaturvedimangalams.

Even now there are villeges carrying the name Brahmadesam - in Vellore district (Pallava territory - thondai nadu), Trichy district and Tirunelveli district and also one or two Chaturvedi mangalam or there are a few mangalam villeges spread across the State. These go to support the theory of formation of these villeges over the centuries. There are also some conclusions arrived at by some historians referred by you and others that the jaina centres were made into chaturvedi mangalams. These do find support in the form of inscriptions as well.

The Tamil literature and the recorded history of the 63 Nayanmars and 12 Azhwars suggest that during the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th centuries they revived the worship of Shiva and Vishnu. The Nayanmars played a major role in turning the Jain population to follow Shaivam. Despite this a good number of Tamil speaking jains are still continuing to practise their religion showing their remarkable "1.5 millenium" long - "generations" surviving steadfastness. They are found in good numbers in the present day Vellore, Kanchi, Tiruvannamalai, Villupuram and Cuddalore districts. Their temples are also intact still. Some of them are very beautiful. They are almost like the Hindu temples, particularly the Shiva Temples. The Deepankudi temple in Tiruvarur district is one of the most beautiful of them.

However, the stone inscriptions donot support the theory that the number of brahmadesam villeges grew disproprtionately when compared to "oors" or "vellan vagai" villeges during the rein of Raja Raja Chola. The inscriptions in Saptarishiswara temple in Tiruthavathurai (Lalgudi in Trichy district - Chola Nadu) do not support this theory, though they do say that the ratio of Brahmin and Velan settlements were at 1:4. 83 inscriptions from this temple were taken for arriving at the socialogical conclusions. Of these, earliest 4 were of Pallava and contemporary Pandya period. 51 of Chola period, 5 of later Pandya period and 5 of Vijayanagar period. A portion of the extract from these inscriptions are given as under:

Names of one hundred and four villages are available in the inscriptions. Catagorisation of these names according to their suffix elements helps to understand the pattern of settlements that had occurred around Thiruthavathurai as well as on the northern bank of Kaveri through the ages. Nearly fifty names of the villages end with the suffix elements ur and kudi suggesting the antiquity of this area. When compared with the Brahmin settlements that end usually with the suffixes mangalam and chaturvedimangalam, the vellam vagai settlements are three times more.

Village names with the suffix nallur are six in number. Villages that have names end with the suffix puram are considered as mercantile settlements. Parantakapuram and Uyyakonda cholapuram existed as mercantile settlements during the Chola period. Rayapuram was probably the corrupt form of Araiyarpuram. Certain names such as Muthaiyil, Thular, Thondakai, Iruttikural, Puvalsayanganam and Ilamperungai Irukkai appear as unusual names and deserver special mention. 'Nagar vaazhkkai', a name of the village found in the inscription, reminds 'Panaiyur Vazhkkai' a village mentioned in the inscription of Chandrasekara temple at Thiruchendurai.

The above is a sample. This will not cover the entire Chola Nadu. This sample suggests that the Brahmin and velan settlements were in the ratio of one to four.

But there is no evidence that they were less during the Pallava period. The above inscriptions do include those from early Pallava period as well.

After all the excercise above, I come to a very important and most interesting question.

If during the Pallava, Pandya, Chozha days the ratio of Brahmin settlements was 1:4 for the others, it leads to a population of 20%
Now the Brahmin population is hardly 3% Where have the 17% all gone ?

 

[appaiah]

Reply to Sri Tanjoreculture's posts - my reference

I have taken the support for my post from the web site

http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=75

I have found this site varalaru.com very informative one. This has articles on archeology, inscriptions, art, paintings, sculpture, old scripts, language, history - in short our heritage.

I suggest that the forumites visit this site and enjoy the information therein.

More particularly, the section on Shilpi's line art is a must read. The line art in itself is a rare art. There are not many who do that. Shilpi is able to reproduce the actual shilpams in our temples wonderfully well ion his line art. The pictures of his line art are worth seeing.

The line art on Thanjavur temple and Gangaikonda cholapuram inner portions are masterpiece.

http://www.varalaaru.com/Default.asp?articleid=442

 

[tanjoreculture]

Sources

I must admit that I am an amateur at my best. Some time ago I also had access to an excellent University library where I was fortunate to read the works of two towering authors Nilakanta Sastri of the 1960s and more recently Noboru Karashima of Tokyo University. The latter produced the most extensive compendium of temple inscriptions he passed away a few years ago. No doubt they had their own interpretations but the general academic view point seems to be that there was a remarkable agrarian expansion in the Chola period. But one scholar R. Champakalakshmi dates this equally to the Pallava period.
There are records for similar settlements in previous centuries in the Kalinga, Satavanha, Chalukya and all other great kingdoms of India. In the Chola period there were Tamil settlements as far as Belgaum and the Konkan coast for trade. There was free movement of people and kings invited scholars to settle in their kingdoms. There are such settlements in the Shivahalli region where Brahmins settled from Ahichattra from the Ganges region. I believe it is a matter of pride that people could move and settle where they chose. I personally think that people would have moved close to their homes from the Konkan region and the Krishna Godavari basins. But we know that great teachers travelled as far as Kashmir from the Tamil country without being molested.
Regarding available sources I would suggest some journals like 'Social Scientist' where some of the above mentioned authors have contributed. This journal is bit 'socialist' for my taste but is available on the 'Digital South Asia Collection' of the University of Chicago. But then as was mentioned history is a matter of interpretation and we do have to be guarded in our thoughts.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Tanjoreculture

Thanks for the sources. I agree that Sri Nilakanta Sastri is a renowned personality and his works are dependable. I will try to read the other author Noboru Karashima also if I am able to get the works by him/ her.

As you rightly said, the inscriptions are very difficult to decypher and then to interpret. The words then in use and those now in use are also different.

The Chola, Chera, Pandya periods date back to even centuries BCE. As I said at that time the entire deccan was only Tamil land. The only other language in this region was Tulu. Therefore, there is no surprise that the tamil settlements = brahmin or otherwise = were there in Konkan or for that matter Krishna Godavari basins as these are part of the Deccan plateau and were Tamil land.

It is well known that Karikala Chozhan I contributed to the irrigation systems by constructing a reservoir/ check dam across River Kaveri. The various kings contributed by making many channels. Historians say that the entire delta area of Kaveri basin was thus created by branching canals and channels from Kaveri river. This would have naturally caused the agricultural growth.

Similarly, during the period of Sundara Cholan, there was great service done to the Northern Tamilnadu and Southern Andhra Pradesh by Adhittha Cholan, elder brother of Rajarajan, as he created more than 1500 lakes in these areas. This has helped the expansion of cultivable lands in this area. He is the one who has widened and expanded the Veera Narayanapuram Lake now known as Veeranam Lake. The expansion of agricultural areas would have naturally caused new settlements and villeges.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The Chola, Chera, Pandya periods date back to even centuries BCE. As I said at that time the entire deccan was only Tamil land. The only other language in this region was Tulu. Therefore, there is no surprise that the tamil settlements = brahmin or otherwise = were there in Konkan or for that matter Krishna Godavari basins as these are part of the Deccan plateau and were Tamil land.

The Satavahanas were not Tamilians. Both Andhras and Maharashtrians had claimed the dynasty. Most historians accept them as Andhras now.

Tamilians may claim that Telugu came out of Tamil. But it this not accepted by the Telugus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telugu_language

Again Kannada has also a long history. The language is old and they had big empire builders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_history_of_medieval_Karnataka

So let us not claim that these are all Tamil lands.

The problem with all the old historians is that they accepted the Aryan/Dravidian theory fully. The basic assumption of Aryans coming from outside and pushing the Dravidians (the indigenous people) to the South.

Some of the other historians went by a broader definition that all the castes other than Brahmins were the local people.

Recently there was a seminar on "Indus Valley Civilization and Tamil" sponsored by the Tamil Nadu government. Any neutral scholar will tell you that the connection is only அப்துல் காதருக்கும் அமாவாசைக்கும் உள்ள சம்பந்தம்.

 

[appaiah]

The Satavahanas were of Maharashtrian origin. Their rule covered the present day North West Andhra, Orissa, parts of Madhya Pradesh, and Maharashtra. It is during their time the mix with Tamil started and that is one of the reasons for the birth of Telugu.

I had in one of my earliest posts stated that the Telugus have now started claiming that Telugu was over 2500 years old. This claim is after the present TN Rulers "celebrated" the "recognition" of Tamil as a "classical language" Now every language clamours for that "status" for political reasons. I had drawn the attention to politicisation of history. The fact remains that Tamil is the mother of the other Dravidian languages. The mix of Sanskrit and some other north Indian languages into Tamil has caused the birth of the other languages.

The following link gives the details of Dravidian languages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravidian_language
The map given therein excludes the present day Maharashtra the origin of the Satavahana dynasty.

As to wikipedia, we must keep in mind that it can be edited by anyone and therefore doesnot have the conclusive authenticity. Wikipedia itself states that the source is necessary for the contents. But the sources of original research are not accepted. If there is a web site -even if it is a hate site like dalistan, the link can be provided. Such linking is not forbidden by Wiki and if an editor deletes it, a dispute can arise and what not. As such Wiki doesnot have an absolute reliability. We can keep that as referencer for study and arrive at our own conclusions. Wiki does not have the same level of reliance as a historian's work has.

On the contrary, a site like varalaru.com contains the original research work with authentic photos and locations.

 

[appaiah]

Telugu's origin

I invite you to visit this site, which claims antiquity of Telugu dating back to B.C.200. Please note that this is AP Govt site. Obviously for political reasons they must claim such antiquity, as this is in line with clamour for the "status of classical language"

http://www.aponline.gov.in/Quick%20links/HIST-CULT/languages.html

Even by their own admission, the earliest inscription is assigned to 575 C.E. That is about 1435 years from now.

During the first phase, we only come across names of places and personal names of Telugu in Prakrit and Sanskrit inscriptions found in the Telugu country. Telugu was exposed to the influence of Prakrit as early as the 3rd century B.C. From this we know that the language of the people was Telugu, although the language of the rulers was different. The first complete Telugu inscription belongs to the Renati Cholas, found in Erragudipadu, Kamalapuram taluk of Cuddapah district and assigned to about A.D. 575. Telugu was exposed to the influence of Sanskrit about this period. It appears that literature also existed in Telugu about the same time, because we find literary style in the inscriptions some three centuries even before Nannaya's (A.D. 1022) Mahabharatam. During the time of Nannaya, the popular language had considerably diverged from the literary language.

It is obvious that Sanskrit had its impact and mixed into Tamil to give birth to Telugu during these times.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

I was only making the point that the Satavahanas were not Tamils. About the origin or antiquity of Telugu, frankly I am not interested.

I am basically an academic and these kind of discussions are almost a daily routine. I have access to the latest research work on all subjects of Indology.

BTW we always distinguish between Classical/Sangham Tamil and the present day Tamil. Again there is a lot of propaganda about Sanskritization of Tamil. Only now some research has been done about the contribution of Classical Tamil to Sanskrit language. The contribution is immense and classical Tamil has contributed to even Paninian grammar. But it will be decades before our Indian scholars accept such findings.

The obsession of Sanskrit words to Tamil started with the Aryan/Dravidian problem. Languages grow by absorbing words from other languages. That is how English has become what it is today. There are thousands of French words in English. It has absorbed words from every language including Tamil.

BTW Thirumandiram the classical work in Tamil ( antiquity not proven) has a number of Sanskrit words which were never in vogue. The author just wrote the Sanskrit words in Tamil. To quote an example he uses the term நவாக்கரி for the nine lettered Mantra. It is Navakshari in Sanskrit.

The siddhas of Tamil Nadu were not bothered about the language. As I had posted earlier there was no water tight compartment between systems. Whenever they found a good idea they absorbed into their own system. Similarly they were not language fanatics. Fanatism in religion and now in language is a later phenomena.

Bhasha or language is spoken. The written language comes much later. The Tamilians in Chera Nadu spoke a different language than the Tamilians of Chola Nadu. It became a separate language only when a lipi was evolved.

A recent example is that of Konkani. It is an old language which is spoken in parts of Maharashtra, Goa, Karnataka, and Kerala along the Konkan coast. It has no lipi. It is written in Marathi (Maharashtra), Kannada (Karnataka), and Roman letters(Goa). The people of Goa had to launch an agitation to get it recognized as a separate language. The Maharshtrians opposed it saying that it is a part of Marathi language. Some of the other languages which have/are facing this problem are Maithili and Bojpuri.

One of the problems faced by humanity is the vanishing languages.
Please read this. Read al the links.

http://www.benettontalk.it/opencms/opencms/benettontalk/en/min_0001/con_0002/book_0004.html

Noone has done any research on the vanishing languages of India. we are slowly losing parts of our culture.

BTW about Wikipedia, I am one of the oldest contributers there. I am not very active now.

 

[appaiah]

Today is 19 February. On 19 February 1855, Tamil Thatha Mahamhopadhyaya U.V.Swaminatha Iyer was born.

It is because of him we are able to assertively say the antiquity of Tamil. He took great efforts to search for old palm leaf manuscripts, decypher and read them, write them down and print into present day Tamil letters. the books published by him include Silappathikaram, Jeevaka Sinthamani, Manimekalai, Purananooru, Patthupattu and Ettuthokai.

But for him persons Karunanithi would not have been able to recite the Purananootru poetry and get to fame.

Other languages were unfortunate in not having a great son like Swaminatha Iyer. Otherwise they might also have retrieved a good amount of their heritege.

 

[appaiah]

Regarding Wikipedia, I stopped because the site doesnot accept original works as references whereas any innocuous email is also accepted just because a link can be provided to it. Wiki doesnot recognise even Court verdicts as "an acceptable source" but would be happy to accept a mere newspaper article by a biassed writer as an "acceptable source". It has all and sundry contriibuting their individual bias and half baked knowledge, which spoils scholarly works of contributors.

 

[raghuram04]

Attack on Brahmins is escalating from all angles

The nation's political system is today in the firm grip of the caste extremists who are hellbent on subverting the democratic system and want all avenues and resources to be reserved for only one set of people.

No political party is willing to stand up to the brutal and brazen efforts that are being made to disenfranchise a section of the society on the grounds of an accident of birth. To the unreserved category the right to vote is a useless right which cannot fetch even a penny of assistance from the State's coffers. Even the poorest among the unreserved category is not entitled to a rupee of state's funds to which all sections of the society contribute.

All scholarships and other economic assistance is reserved on caste-basis. While even crorepatis of certain artificial congregations are entitled to scholarships and public money, the rest must borrow or perish.

It is high time the unreserved category residents of India desisted form casting their notional right to vote. Some sort of public declaration is necessary and such residents must not vote till the political parties and the State does not restore our dignity and our right to education, livelihood and the right to live as human beings.

 

[Saab]

Dear Raguramji,

I can understand the agony in your statement. However your solution is not realistic. Those 'others' may not care if you don't vote and may even think 'nallatha pOcchu'!

Realistically, one has to fight for his rights not abandon the fight. That is the message of Gita.

Regards,
Saab