Brahmins and Tamil society

[appaiah]

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Dear Sri Adiyen

Humility is a virtue. True to the id you have chosen, you have this virtue in abundance. I will try to emulate you in accepting errors with all humility.

Namaskarams

Appaiah

 

[adiyean]

Dear Sri. Appaiah,
Thanks for your kind words.

Regards

 

[Brahmanyan]

Brahmins and Tamil Society - Communal Reservation.

Dear Sri Adiyean,

I do understand the plight of the unfortunate Girl who could not get suitable seat in the medical course of her choice in spite of scoring high marks. Brahmins in South have faced the Communal reservations in India since long. This is not a new subject. Reservations on communal lines was introduced for Government Jobs under the name of "Communal G.O. (G.O. No: 613)" by the Justice Party in the year 1921. Later this was refined and extended to include the field of selection of candidates to Educational institutions by the then Congress Government when they came to power in 1947. I belong to the Generation which suffered the most because of the Communal G.O. Unlike the present day there were very few Colleges, to be exact, there was only one Government Arts College in Coimbatore (my native place) at that time available for higher education. There were two Engineering Colleges one at Guindy, Madras and the other at Annamalai University. Three Medical Colleges Madras Medical and Stanley at Madras and the other CMC,at Vellore. Most of us belonged to lower middle class who depended on education only for living.

Now what we see as the big wild tree of Rservation is the same for which the seed was sown in 1921.

But the Brahmin community faced all odds against them silently and branched off to various alternate avenues to come up in life. Those who would like to read more information on the History of Reservations in India can find them in the following URLs:
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?clid=4&id=155652&usrsess=1
http://apocryphal.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/moments.pdf

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

 

[adiyean]

Dear Sri. Brahmanyan,
Namaskaram. Thanks for your information on history of reservation in India and links on the same subject. Although I was a little familiar with the history, I got benefitted from your posting.

I do understand the plight of the unfortunate Girl who could not get suitable seat in the medical course of her choice in spite of scoring high marks.

I feel we should try to get/assess the feelings of such youngsters of TAMBRAM community living in TN, however smaller in number they are.

I request eminent members of this forum should try to do something so that the TAMBRAMS -especially youngsters should be protected from mental distress and should be boosted psycologically.
I agree we have all faced this since long but we can't afford to leave the same way to the present generation Tambrams. This is because of the emergency situation among brahmins society - slowly losing the faith in their traditional, time-tested morals, traditions, rituals, dharma etc.

Regards,
Adiyean

 

[Brahmanyan]

Re: Brahmins and Tamil Society.

Dear Sri Adiyean,

I am happy to read your positive response to my Post. I have been thinking for long about finding some solution for the plight of Bright Brahmin Students in TN due to Communal Reservation. I can suggest the following three to start with.
1. In view of the discrimination, Brahmins could approach the Courts to declare themselves as minority community under the Constitution to start their own Educational Institutions. This is possible when they live outside TN. ( Eg. MVJ institutions in Karnataka)

2. There are quite a few well to do entrepreneurs from Brahmin Community in TN and outside who could come forward to open educational institutions to help the community. Religious Mutts which caters the spiritual needs of Brahmin Community can also help in this regard.

3. Community Trusts can be formed to finance and offer all other help for eligible Brahmin candidates to join Universities in Foreign Countries where merit is respected.

By doing these we can help our community and also help eligible candidates from other communities if need be.

Namaskaram,

Brahmanyan.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Sri Adiyean,

1. In view of the discrimination, Brahmins could approach the Courts to declare themselves as minority community under the Constitution to start their own Educational Institutions. This is possible when they live outside TN. ( Eg. MVJ institutions in Karnataka)

brahmanyan,

this should work.

i saw the MVJ websites. it looks good, and there is emphasis on the tamil linguistic minority classification. not as a religious minority.

i think sometime back, some group of poor brahmins in tamil nadu went to the courts to classify themselves as obc based on poverty. the courts ruled that classifications were based on social stratification and not on economics.

suppose if such institution were to be set up in karnataka, will that mean, the students will have to be solely from that state? will that be a condition for opening such institutions?

also, i think, all institutions in india come under the purvey of the central ministry of education. they can impose the reservations as they deemed fit on any institution run in india. even bits pilani, 100% privately funded, is now under the reservation rule, i think. i may be wrong here.

also, even minority and private institutions, i think, and i may be mistaken, have to have reservations set aside per government rules, though the percentages may vary by state.

going offshore has its advantages. but if the government comes to get the hang of it, they can simply de-certify those universities and prevent those graduates from practising their profession in india. ofcourse, if you qualify abroad, and move abroad for living, it is a non issue.

i am not intending to be negative, but i am just stepping through the whole process.

brahmanyan, why is this suggestion so late coming? if situation is serious as discussed here, this would have rallied the community to do something constructive. are we as a community, more at a discomfiture stage and inconvenienced, than a hurting one?

thank you.

 

[Brahmanyan]

Brahmins and Tamil Society.

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

You are correct, the MVJ institutions were started as Tamil Minority institutions in Karnataka. But they do give preference to merit under the Management quota. There are quite a number of Educational Institutions run by Religious Mutts, especially of Veera Saiva and Vokkiliga Communities, in Karnataka. Surprisingly none from the Brahmin Mutts in Karnataka. If there is any, It is not known outside. Even in TN many individuals from various communities other than Brahmins have opened a number of educational institutions. But except for SASTRA near Tanjavur, I don't think any from the Brahmin Community have ventured in opening Higher Educational Institution.

Instead of depending on the Governments which have no sympathy towards the plight of poor Brahmins, the Community itself should turn to other sources for help. Of course "Self help is the best help".

Regards,
Brahmanyan.

 

[pannvalan]

I could learn several viewpoints about ancient and recent history of Tamil society and the place for brahmins in it. I particularly thank 'Tanjoreculture' for his thought-provoking article and the magnanimity and ready acceptance shown by the members of this forum to him and his views. I wish this trend continues.

Please permit me to share some of my views in this regard.

1. It has been well established atleast from the second Tamil sangam age (2nd AD
onwards), talks about Hindu gods (see Paripaadal) started. Even though Murugan
was supposed to be of Tamil origin, in the later period, he was deliberately given
sanskritised role and description, so that smooth integration of north-south took
place.

2. Detailed mentioning has been made about brahmins and their rituals in the works of
most of the ancient Tamil literature from 2nd century AD that continues till date.

3. There is no gainsaying that there was a major shake-up during the Vijayanagar
empire period and the Maratha period, that saw thousands of people migrating
from the present day Andhra Pradesh (comprising coastal Andhra, Southern
Rayalaseema), Karnataka and Maharashtra to Tamilnadu. While the Telugus spread
everywhere, Kannadigas were restricted to provincial capitals and the Marathas
concentrated in Thanjavur -Kumbakonam belt. (During the same period, Saurashtras
came to Tamilnadu and got settled in Madurai and Kumbakonam). All this because of
misrule of mughal emperors and the atrocities perpetrated by them on the Hindus.

The Iyengars of Tirupathi and Chittoor who were already part of the Tamil land continued
there even after the formation of states on linguistic basis, because of Lord Venkateswara.

4. Quite surprisingly, the exodus of Tamils - brahmins and others to neighbouring
states was very negligible, except for some brahmins settling down in Palghat
District of Kerala from Thanjavur district and some in Travancore, because of their
capabilities and accomplishments in academics, administration and music. The Rajahs
of Travancore patronised them liberally.

All this happened during the 400 year period spanning from 1500 AD to 1900 AD.

5. To my knowledge, the very word 'navy/naval' came from the Tamil word 'naavaai'
which means a sea-vessel, usually small. Thus, the Tamils were the pioneers in
crossing the seas for the purpose of trade etc. and in the process, established their
political supremacy in the entire south east Asia, besides Sri Lanka. They also took
Hinduism with them, wherever they went.

6. To quote some rare incidents of marriages between people of two different lands is
interesting but does not fill the history.

7. Finally, the brahmins becoming too greedy by usurping temple lands, exploiting the
lower classes by abdicating the self-imposed morals and values and becoming a
pawn in the hands of the invading Europeans for some 'deemed privileges and
honours' made them fall from the high pedestal they were occupying before.

But, that was the result of money-based economy casting its web on all the communities alike. For the sins committed by people of those generations, even the present generation suffers.

 

[Ramaa]

Dear pannvalan,

Thanks for your post. You have written:

7. Finally, the brahmins becoming too greedy by usurping temple lands, exploiting the lower classes by abdicating the self-imposed morals and values and becoming a pawn in the hands of the invading Europeans for some 'deemed privileges and honours' made them fall from the high pedestal they were occupying before.

This is a portrayal of the Brahmins without quoting any evidence whatsoever. Anything (that includes people) can be perceived positively or negatively from the point of view of one's likes and dislikes. That is nobody's concern. But if that is doled out as a considered opinion then it must be supported by evidence that others can agree or disagree so that the opinion becomes acceptable to all, partly accepted or totally rejected. This is where the disputation comes into play. A person or a group can behave in a manner that can be perceived as commendable or otherwise only in their own circumstances and in comparison with others of their time and notions but not from the perspective of a different time. For you would then have the advantage of 'hind sight is 20/20' that people of those times do not have.

So I suggest we be careful in evaluating others from modern perspectives.

Regards,

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Pannvalan,

I have gone through your post, wherein you had stated:

I particularly thank 'Tanjoreculture' for his thought-provoking article and the magnanimity and ready acceptance shown by the members of this forum to him and his views.

My reply:

I agree that the members of this forum readily accepted Sri Tanjoreculture. For that matter, we will accept anyone, with our brotherly gesture. But I don’t think that all his views were accepted by us. We do accept his views on harmony as the culture of this Nation from the days of Sri Rama through the days of Swami Vivekananda till day is one of “Universal Brotherhood”. The ideology of Hinduism and India had always be one of peaceful co-existence. No other Nation in this world had given a peaceful atmosphere - so early in history - for all religions to co-exist, the standing examples are - the Parsis, who do not originate from this land, are flourishing only in this country and they very much live as our Indians. They are not living in any other country today. The jews came to Kochi centuries ago and they live peacefully very much as Indians. Even in their own land, they are fighting to establish that they belong there! On the contrary even in this 21st century CE, there are many Muslim, Christian and Communist countries that do not allow peaceful existence for people of all religious faith.

Sri Rama accepted Guhan as the fifth brother, Sugrivan as sixth brother, Vibhishanan as the seventh brother. Swami Vivekananda’s speech in Chicago in 1893 is for ever remembered for his addressing the gathering as “brothers and sisters”

We pray "Let the whole universe be in peace and prosper".

We at this forum - or at least I for one - did not accept some of the views of Sri Tanjoreculture’s views on history of India and Brahmins as he perceived. I had given my views with historical support. Please understand me for hastening to place this aspect on record.

There are certain aspects of your post that need to be put in the correct perspective. I shall revert in due course.

Namaskarams

Appaiah

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Pannvalan

You have referred to Second Tamil Sangam. We all have read that there were three Sangam periods – First, second and the third. There may be difference of opinion as to the date of the Sangam periods. But the historians are such that they will dispute anything and dismiss anything just because they have not come across evidence or that they do not find that evidence acceptable to promote their view point. I stress on this aspect so as to drive home the point that Indian history has been so distorted to promote the viewpoints of the Europeans on the one hand and in the past ninety years, by our own Indians to promote their own political agenda on the other.

Here is what some historians say about the existence of more than one Sangam period !

Scientifically and historically, the legends of multiple Sangams existing prior to the period of the earliest extant works in Tamil have been dismissed due to lack of any tangible proof. Due to the evidences of this period being more mythological than factual, some scholars are of the opinion that the whole Sangam story is a hoax and a fabrication
The facts mentioned above have persuaded some scholars to consider that everything about the Sangam found in that commentary is a fabrication. Some treat the entire legend as a hoax., P.N. Chopra, T.K. Ravindran, N. Subrahmanian, History of South India (2003), p32

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Sangam

In the light of this observation, I will give my detailed views in following posts.

Namaskarams

Appaiah

 

[pannvalan]

Thank u Ramaa, for the alacrity with which you have responded to my post. In any
assessment, or assessment of anything, certain element is subjectivity is unavoidable.

Basing on my own experiences and writings by many scholars - Subramania Bharathi's
"Paarppanai Ayyan endra kaalamum pocche" and "Peraasaikkaranada paarppan -Avan Periya Durai ennil Udal Verppan" and Jayakanthan in "Rishi Moolam", 'Sila Nerangalil Sila Manidhargal', T. Janaki Raman's many novels and many of the contemporay writers' observations during the course of their writings will corroborate my views.

Haven't u felt the same way when u visited famous temples like Tirupathi or Madurai, or when some grand festivals or annual rituals like 'homams/'pitru shrardham' were conducted in your full view?

I nowhere said that all brahmins or majority of them have degenerated; but the fact remains that brahmins who were once considered next only to God, because of their
rigid habits, rhythmic rituals, strict morals and high values preached n practiced by them, have no longer been like that. Even in intelligence, others have either closed in or surpassed us. Some tall figures in the socio-religious and spiritual spheres have brought discredit and bad reputation for the entire community.

Times have changed, agreed. But, excessive greed in them for materialistic things like any other human being in modern times has removed them from the high place occupied by them in this society.

A brahmin's every word was like a dictum or verdict and greatly respected by all others.
Is that 'Vag-Shuddham' (Vaaimai) still visible in them? Is that expecting too much?

I myself have felt cheated and betrayed by good, well-educated brahmins in whom I had placed great confidence and trust, during the past so many years. In my official circles, regarding the kind of treatment I got from many of my bosses who happened to be brahmins, that too Tamil brahmins, less said the better. They only created all sorts of troubles and were major hurdles for my progress.

And if you ask any non-brahmins - I'm so sorry to use this phrase - you wil get more shocking responses, basing on their personal experiences.

Let us accept the shortfalls and maladies in our community and try to make some amends. No need to be too defensive!

Regards,

pannvalan

 

[pannvalan]

Brahmins and Tamil Society - Past and the present

Dear Sri. Appaiah,

Namaskarams. I concur with u that our history as written by westerners
and many of our own english-educated scholars does not represent the true
past. But, all of that cannot be dismissed with one master stroke, using this argument.

On any subject, books are readily available, discussing both the sides -
for and against, supporting and opposing, proving and disproving the matter under study. So, the existence of Tamil Sangams, their number and their period are no exception.

If you read the Tamil works of yore, you can find the similarities and differences, with regard to their length, form (rhyme and rhythm), subjects handled, words and phrases used, the grammatical structure upon which
the lines were constructed etc., over a period of time.

The slow and subtle transformation of the works will vouch for the period
during which they were written/created. The cross-references and other
external evidences like still surviving civil structures, artefacts, archeological
finds in our possession today will throw valuable light on the period of the
works studied. Certainly, we will take the right path, if we're clever enough.

May I request you to kindly go through the research documents of our own
historians, who command very great respect amongst Indians and the foreigners in equal measure?

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Pannvalan

Thanks for your understanding.

I will not get deeper into issues in view of what you have now stated. But I may say that right from Adi Shankara's days, worship of Subrahmanya was there. There is no evidence to say that Muruga was sanskritised. It is of course a fact that there are NOT many ancient temples for Muruga in North India. It could be possible they were all small temples but could have been destroyed during foreign invasions. But that is only a possibility and not a certainty.

As is known to all of us, it was Adi Shankara who enabled the combination of six religious faiths including Kaumaram (worship of Muruga or Kumaran) into the present day Hinduism. Shiva was known to be worshipped in the first Tamil Sangam period itself. The first Tamil Sangam was in "Then Madurai", since eaten away by Sea. If Shiva was worshipped so much down South, then it is possible that Muruga was also worshipped up North in ancient days.

Therefore the theory that Muruga was sanskritised is without any such historic evidence. Even if it may be so, the "formula" given by Adi Shankara was mutual worship of all the six deities by the respective followers one another. If that be so, how does it matter?

As to your observation that the Brahmins were "usurping temple lands and exploiting the lower classes by abdicating the self-imposed morals".

As I had already stated, there is no possiblity for such usurption of temple lands. If that be the case, the Archakas who are till now doing pujas in the temples would not be so poor. Only in the recent past, the archakas in large temples like Madurai, Palani, Tiruchendur, Tiruttani, Swamimalai, Kanchipuram and Tiruvannamalai have become affluent because of the large number of people visiting them and their offerings as Dakshinai.

On the contrary, large landholdings are only with other dominant castes. There is one Arunachalapuram in Adyar in Chennai. Over a hundred acres of land owned by Tiruvannamalai Temple is being used by hundreds of people belonging to all castes. Why single out one community and put all the blames on them?

But I do accept that the Brahmins have used certain obnoxious customs to belittle the other castes, particulary the downtrodden. I use the word downtrodden because even in this the affluent among the lower castes were not ill-treated. I give one example of a personality, who is from the barber community. About nearly eighty years ago, this person was a young boy, he was asked to carry the box containing the razors, scissors and such implements and go along with his family elders. When the call came from the Brahmins, the barber and his young assistant will go by walk for a few kilometres to the Brahmin's house. There will be a secluded place away from the house into the gardens, under a tree. The Barber will give a hair-cut and shave and it would include even 'sarvangam'. When the boy felt thirsty and asked for water, after initial scoldings water would be poured by the lady of the house from a distance and from a height and the boy had to hold his palm and take the water from the palm. After the hair-cut is over as the barber and the boy leave, the ladies of the house will bring pot-fulls of water and wash away all the place walked by the barber and boy, as the 'theettu' has to be washed. But alas, during some nights the very same brahmin will visit the houses of the barber and/or his relatives for personal relationships with the women over there. The concept of "theetu" seemed to rise and fall with the Sun. Imagine what anquish the boy would have had, watching all these, and how can any brahmin expect any friendliness from him when he is in a position to deliver. This man can never forget the humiliation that he suffered and shows that at every opportunity. This is personally narrated by this man to his brahmin classmate, the classmate died a couple of years ago and this man visited the brahmin friend's relatives for condolence later.

Yes, we are reaping the fruits of what was sown by our forefathers somewhere sometime.

Namaskarams

Appaiah

 

[Ramaa]

Dear Appaiahji/pannvalan,

The case of barber and a Brahmin is quite tasteless to know that such things happened in bygone days. I do belong to the relatively younger generation to whom such things are 'merely' news. The problems faced by both the Brahmins and non-Brahmins of today are far removed from those of yesteryears. I hope you would not contribute to the sickening concept advocated by interested people in portraying the Brahmins as a hoard of tyrants.

The attitude of each caste to their fellow castes have differed from time to time and this relative relationship is based on what is perceived as security and balance among the populace. These security and balance depend both on internal and external conditions of society that changes from time to time. In any case there has not been wars of attritions between castes even during the days of British and of the 'secularist' hoards who inherited the mantle to which I should certainly join with Sri Appaiahji in thanking the greatness of Hinduism that is the guiding light through all members irrespective of their castes and stations.

Dear pannvalan, You have stated of Bharathi who has inspired me also as follows:

Basing on my own experiences and writings by many scholars - Subramania Bharathi's "Paarppanai Ayyan endra kaalamum pocche" and "Peraasaikkaranada paarppan -Avan Periya Durai ennil Udal Verppan" and Jayakanthan in "Rishi Moolam", T. Janaki Raman's many novels and many of the contemporay writers' observations during the course of their writings will corroborate my views.

The poets in their dreams write things that are sometimes exaggerations and sometimes politically incorrect and sometimes quite hurtful. If you begin to take a poet to be your leader because you like the way they portray something, you are missing the moot point.

If you have seen 'Bharathi' movie, you can recall the episode when a chettiar who has a 'keep' of a married Brahmin woman wanted Bharathi that he should give his daughter in marriage to the Chettiar's son. Bharathi did suggest to Chettiar that a 'Paraya' girl would much suit his son! Bharathi's wife takes her daughters and runs to her brother fearing that Bharathi in his enthusiasm would marry away his daughters to non-Brahmins. Bharathi's wife and her brother finds a nice Brahmin boy for the daughter and were to give her away in marriage. Bharathi who was banished from the Agraharam for not wearing the 'pooNal', comes back. He shaves off his mustache, wears pattai Vibhuthi, comes bare body showing the 'yagnopaveetham' in public and enters the agraharam and the house of his brother in law where the marriage is to take place and conducts the marriage as the father of the bride!

This episode is what I choose about Bharathi unlike the one you chose about Bharathi. Dear Pannvalan, this is where we have to make a self-introspection if we are carried away by the propaganda of those inimical to us and such state of being carried away is truly to the detriment of us as individuals and also as a community.

There are lot of things that Bharathi has written about nationalism, Hinduism, Vedanta and such other great topics. Do they not inspire you?

 

[sriniranga]

Excellent sir, this the one i am am looking for, where is our history

The infirmities are dealt hereinafter:

1.

The actual position:

There was no influx of Brahmins into Tamil country. The tamil country of current times is in itself a shrunk portion. This concept of influx was brought in slowly during the British days. The evidence against this concept are in our history, literature and temple archaeology. Brahmins were existing in Tamilnadu much before Rajaraja Chola or Vijayanagar Rulers.

The idea that the Brahmins came during the Raja Raja Chola days or Krishna Devaraya days is a canard or utter lie spread not in 1800s or 1700s but only during 1920s by the British through the Justice Party. Before the Justice Party was born there was no hatred really against the Brahmins in the Madras Presidency. It is the British attempt to instigate the “higher” caste Hindus against the Brahmins, that they created the Justice Party through some willing persons like the “Sir” Thyagaraya Chettiar, “Rajah Sir” Annamalai Chettiar, “Rajah Sir” Muthiah Chettiar, “Sir” Pitie Rajan Pillai, and a host of others. Invariably all these were “knighted” by the British Crown even as the freedom fighters were fighting for freedom. The creation of Justice Party for creating a wedge against the Brahmins was necessitated because a good number of Brahmins like Rajagopalachariar, Sathyamurthy, Vanchinathan, Subramaniam Siva, Subaramania Bharatiyar, Shenbakaraman were leading the Freedom struggle both in the Congress party and in the INA. There were the other leaders like V.O.Chidambaram Pillai of the higher caste who had a good working relationship with the freedom fighters including Brahmins like Subramaniam Siva. There was necessity to break the union between the intelligent and brave Brahmins and rich and affluent Chettiars and Pillais. The Justice Party came in handy and there were leaders like Annamalai Chettiar who were willing to do the British bidding for recognition as the “King of Chettinad” a country that did not exist before. They were happy with titles like “Sir” “Divan Bahadur” “Rao Bahadur” and the like. Some Brahmins also accepted these “Rao Bahadur” title.

Let us now look at history to show that Brahmins existed from time immemorial in the entire India Deccan included.

1. Sri Bhagavat Pada Aadhi Shankara was born in 509 B.C.E in Kaladi, presently located in Kerala. At the time of birth of Aadhi Shankara, the whole deccan plateau was Tamil country. Thus he was a Tamil Brahmin. Telugu was born about 1300 years ago, Kannada was born about 1000 years ago and Malayalam was born about 600 years ago. The age of these languages has been accepted by historians so far without any demur. But after the present TN rulers made much fanfare about the grant of “Classical Language status to Tamil” by the Government of India, some Telugu scholars are “bringing” some new evidence that Telugu was 2500 years old!! That is the kind of politics in history that goes on till date to suit the political mileage for the so called Rulers, be it in democracy or monarchy. The modern day democracy is slowly inching towards family rule or monarchy in another form – that is another matter altogether.

2. Raja Raja Chola ruled between 985 CE and 1014 CE.

3. Tiruvalluvar who is said to have lived before Christ has written about “Anthanar”, a term used to denote Tamil Brahmins. Thus they existed in Tamil country before Christ or before 2000 years.


4. Thillai Moovaayiravar, a Tamil Brahmin sect existed 2000 years ago and this is found in Tamil literature.
5. Thirugnanasambandar born in Sigazhi in 7th century CE was a Tamil Brahmin. He composed his first song when he was but a toddler of three and is believed to have written 16,000 verses. But less than 4,000 have survived today. He is said to have composed his songs in about 23 Panns all of them in Tamil.
6. Appoothi Adigalar, a Shivite saint lived in Thingalur near Tiruvaiyaru during the 7th Century CE. He was a Tamil Brahmin.
7. Sundarar born in Tirunavalur in 8th Century CE was a Tamil Brahmin.
8. Paranchothi Nayanar, was the Chief of Army staff of Narasimha Pallavan (630 CE to 638 CE) Later he became a saint and ardent devotee of Shiva. He was a Tamil Brahmin.
9. Saint Manickavacagar lived during the 8th Century CE. He was a Tamil Brahmin.
10. There are many more nayanmars who were Tamil Brahmins from among the 63 nayanmars who lived between 6th and 9th Century CE.
Therefore the “history” that records that the Brahmins came to present day Tamilnadu is mischievously lie, to say the least and this is the work of the British and European historians.

Interestingly Sri Raghavendra was born in Bhuvanagiri in Tamilnadu as a Tamil Brahmin and he went to the Present day Karnataka and founded the Matham there.

 

[kunjuppu]

this is the way i understand pannvalan. i think he is saying that we cannot be selective in acknowledging what our our heritage is. it is everything that ramaa and other learned folks here talk about, the exalted philosophies and the inbuilt tolerances within it.

but our heritage is also cumbersome and unwanted practices which have been handed over as sampradayams. for want of a better reason, and seeking comfort in the familiarity, my family has been tending towards sampradayams to the generation level that i am aware of. this meant that starting at age 14 to shraddhams every for grand parents and the cumbersome activities as viewed by a teenager. not a good way to get acclimatized to a glorious past. so when going to kasi relieved me of 4 shraddhams a year, i took it.

a relative of mine, watching one of the dhanam rituals commented that today our socio-religious attitudes are governed by the three 'c's - cash, convenience and comfort. thus the dhanam of a cow, becomes some cash, madhu becomes cash, and so on. he was not critiquing the practice, but observing something that was practised without a second thought. with each such practice, we tend towards more compromises. that is us. if we accept that this is us, we have some peace. if we feel uneasyness, we try to revert, except there is this old adage, that there is no such thing as going back.

and then there are our relationships to other castes. pann has narrated his story. i too have similar stories. i can say, like ramaa, that i have personally not party to any of the unsavoury practices towards lower castes. but, does that really free us from that heritage? even if we consider it so, and wash it off our psyche, as it is happening now, the other castes will not forget it. racial our memories are long and this type of reminders are bound to happen. does not matter that other castes practise those habits, but the onus of being on top of the totem pole makes us an easy target. anyone one of the intermediary caste can say 'i took the cue from the brahmin'. something we have to learn to tackle effectively and fend off. yet.

i think we have as many views about our lifestyle as there are numbers in us. which is why, i am not surprised that there is no answer to clarion calls for rally like what vanam did. it is not surprising, for each such call is a suspect to a retro longing for a glory believed lost. what vanam can do is to define what specifially he plans to do. what aspect we want to focus, we need to be specific and come out with concrete plans. if there are no takers, it is not the community's fault. it is just that the perceived offering is not tempting enough for bites.

if it is to run a higher institute of learning for those impacted by quotas for eample, my question and reservations would be as follows. and this is just one example. we can carry this level of understanding as how to deal with issues like our girls' penchant for guys of other caste, our increasingly dubious seeming culinary habits and such like.

- institute location such that it gets a linguistic minority status along with all its priveleges (+)
- imparting vedic culture as perceived by some mutts (-)
- will it be focussed towards the needs of the poorer brahmins (+)
- specific steps taken to prevent middle and rich brahmins crowding in (+)
- specific instructions to keep organizations like RSS out (+)
- focus on job training in all aspects - professionalism, interviews, polish etc (+)
- focus on team sports (not cricket) (+)
- body building (+)
- will not be converted to a de-facto veda patasala (+)
- focus on the future and not on a remmebered glorious past (+)

the + means i support it, - means otherwise. as you can see, i have clearly stated my expectations from such an institute. i am willing to contribute. i am very suspicious of religious and organizations like RSS hijacking what is meant to be a support for poor brahmins. it has to be a secular institute of higher learning with focus on helping poor brahmins to get my support.

sometimes, looking at the ads where we want exclusive brahmin cooks, servants, live-ins etc, i have a suspicion, that the middle class in us, has this need for the soft underbelly of poor brahmins for our comfort, and we do not really care to uplift them. for if there are no chavundis, who will we call to carry us to our final spot after we are gone?

 

[kunjuppu]

sriniranga,

while the past can be a guide to our future, may i please request you to suggest positive solutions, which are feasible, and acceptable and executable, which as a group we can carry out.

the rest of your message, while strong on rhetoric, needs to be tuned towards making it acceptable, win subscriptions and help you execute.

let us hear more... thank yo.

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Ramaa

The case of the barber and the boy cannot be dismissed as that of the 'bygone' era. Simply because boy is still alive and really "kicking"

And we have to take the kicking!

Anyway, unless we realise the reality and make ourselves ready for the responses, we are unlikely to be successful. On this aspect, I do understand and accept the position of Sri Pannvalan that we need to identify, recognise and prepare ourselves for the acts of the past as well, if we are to progress.

Namaskarams

Appaiah

 

[appaiah]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu

As to the minority status, the ideal location could be somewhere in Palakkad or Tirussur or Guruvayur or Thiruvananthapuram. Of these, Palakkad is nearest to Tamilnadu, located just about 40 kms from Coimbatore. That will very well gel with our ideology and at the same time not look like a farce.

I do share the same views as you have, on the aspects of higher learning institution.

Regards

Appaiah

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Pannvalan and Sri Kunjuppu!

You have raised some very good points in self-introspection for the community. I just would like to share my views...

This world is a mixture of papa and punya - A human being is called "Mishra" meaning a mixture of the forces of papa and punya.

There are good mixture of good and bad happened in the past. Please reflect on the good side too, to get a balanced perspective, too much negative talk is going to do no good.

The scriptures are structural issues - what was/is practiced may or may not reflect the spirit of the scriptures. What is/was practiced if it deviates the scriptures we can eschew those practices.

If you read the Puranas - many stories would illustrate how strongly it supports to rational thinking and bring out the positive side of human emotions.

Please don't dismiss Puranas are mythological,esotric etc.... that is not at all doing any justice to our scriptures.

For most of our scriptures, comes in a definte form , it follows the rules of highly developed grammar. Each sloka in a definte meter. If you take the case of Purana all is limited by a particular no.of letters not one word more or less.
Not, a mere story telling. "Itihasa" means "It happened thus". I wrote all this again and again hoping that you would see the "structural issues" in the right spirit.

But if you want a society , conforming the way that you think is right and logical- don't you think that you are imposing your own views?

And Sri Pannvalan, when you judge your Brahmin officers, please take consideration of the view, most of them are only born into the community not trained. Most of us are like fish out of water, we only stink.

Regards

 

[kunjuppu]

hi malgova,

if you read carefully, i am focussing on the future. i try not to dwell in the past, unless there is a lesson in it for me. and furthermore, if i do bring it out to the public, it is with trepedition, for we are all creatures of different experiences, and we look upon incidents differently.

please focus on the learning spot of poor brahmins that i have focussed and give us your views on viability. in all this culture of prosperity that we as brahmins are experiencing, the poor brahmins are a lost tribe. let us be proactive and so something to alleviate their lot.

please come out with practical plans of actions which can be subscribed here. i admire your knowledge of esoteric philosophies. good stuff. i do not have much to respond to it, beyond saying that i don't know what i can do with it to help out poor brahmins.

but please give us your feedback and commitment on the rest of my posting.

much appreciated.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear M/s. Sriranga, Appaiah, Malgova & Kunjuppu,

Thank u for the nice comments made. But, I only echoed the sentiments of many of my
fellows.

I dismiss many of the scenes in the "Bharathi" as inserted without any factual basis. Neither Chellammal Bharathi (his wife) nor Thangammal Bharathi (daughter) nor
many of his ardent followers like Seeni Viswanathan and others have written about the
incident in Bharathi's life, quoted by Ramaa, to bolster his arguments. As I understood
Bharathi, he was never a coward, bowing to social pressure or even threats from his own ilk. Remember, he lived 100 years ago and obviously, the thoughts and ideas propounded by him on Social liberation, Untouchability, Liberation of women, Upbringing of Children, Education through English medium etc. were way ahead of his times! Compare the language and style adopted by him, in contrast to the 'manipravalam nadai' of most of his contemporary writers. (Haven't you read his letters published in 'The Hindu' recently?)

Same is the case with 'Periyar' cinema. Many uncomfortable episodes in the true life of
Periyar have been deliberately omitted. The kind of venom spewed by Periyar on Brahmin society, the very low opinion he had about the institution of marriage and the
vulgar prescriptions made by him to women - married women - to release themselves from their social bondage, the negative opinion he had about the Tamil language itself, the paths he suggested and adopted against the 'perceived' evils (through violent means) all will point to the hypocrisy in his life throughout. Many of his writings in 'Viduthalai' and 'Kudiyarasu' were verbatim reproduced by Cho in 'Thuglak', in the aftermath of the recent 'Kushboo' controversy.

One tablet erected inside the perumal kovil in Erode (several decades ago) clearly mentions that he was from Kannada Balija (Trading) community, but many in Tamilnadu still believe that he was a (Kamma) Naidu, speaking Telugu at home. Why I am writing this here is to lay bare the untruth and hypocrisy in every aspect of his life.

It is a great misfortune that all our Dravidian parties, even today, swear in his name , before starting any new venture.

I will write more later. P.S: I nowhere said that I was in total agreement of
what all 'Tanjoreculture' had written. I only
appreciated the accommodative gesture shown by
the members of this forum to him. Nevertheless,
the alternative set of ideas and fresh insights
provided by 'Tanjoreculture' cannot be undermined.
Regards,
pannvalan

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Kunjuppu,

I'm also talking about learning, scriptures etc..... You are talking about the future, imposing your own views on how it should be, not even giving a fair chance to consider my post. Nevermind, let it be....

About current education, I want to quote Mahakavi Sri Subramania Bharathiyar quote on current education system - He called it what you know? He called it "Bedi Kalvi" . Well said, isn't it? - you got the meaning of word "Bedi" - do you want me to explain it? Just consider this, even scholars are prepared to re-write history bending to the pressure of rulers. Now in TamilNadu syllabus Devaram and other religious text which preach the moral values are not taught at all, because it doesn't goes well with secular.

At the best you make the others serve for your mindless desire at the worst you serve for others to fulfill their mindless desire. - This is the out-come of current Education System Sir.

This is not "PURNA VIDYA" sir, it is about how best to exploit the earth and its natural resources. Simply focussing on consuming. It only talks about "Jada" Vrithhi.

The future with this kind of education system will lead to chaos sir, nothing much. Already the results are telling, please open your eyes to global warming, deforestation, ecological destruction , pollution , unhealthy competition, poisonus price increase etc... Even Motherhood prefers money more than their own Kid sir.

They find nursing their own kid as next priority to earning money sir. Only "Jada" vritthi sir. Do you see my apprehension. This is a very fundamental issue sir.

"Education breeds culture" Sir, I'm very selective about it. Your High-learning or higher education , sorry sir it sounds meaningless to me.

Regards,
malgova.mango

P.s
Definetly I'll touch on untouchability in future.

 

[malgova.mango]

Dear Sri Pannvalan!

At the outset, you have observed superbly on various issues in this post, to clarify some doubts, I've posted some queries, please provide your insights .....

I could learn several viewpoints about ancient and recent history of Tamil society and the place for brahmins in it. I particularly thank 'Tanjoreculture' for his thought-provoking article and the magnanimity and ready acceptance shown by the members of this forum to him and his views. I wish this trend continues.

Please permit me to share some of my views in this regard.

1. It has been well established atleast from the second Tamil sangam age (2nd AD
onwards), talks about Hindu gods (see Paripaadal) started. Even though Murugan
was supposed to be of Tamil origin, in the later period, he was deliberately given
sanskritised role and description, so that smooth integration of north-south took
place.

We came to Know about Lord Muruga through "Skanda Puranam" , which in turn comes to us from Sage Vyasa in Sanskrit Language. My understanding is Sanskrit Language existed in Tamil country since time immemorial. It only vanished in recent times. Sanskrit is called "Pitru Bhasha" and it's influence is found in many languages used in India. Even European and Persian languages have many words that resemble Sanskrit words - Like "Gho" - cow, "Mathru" - Mother "Pitru" - Father etc.. Sanskrit is "The Language", which gave away to many other languages.

In the light of the above view, I can't assimilate your view that Lord Muruga is Tamil God and later it is sanskritised. Did I went wrong anywhere?


2. Detailed mentioning has been made about brahmins and their rituals in the works of
most of the ancient Tamil literature from 2nd century AD that continues till date.

Puranas mention even a much earlier age say approximately around 5000-6000 years before, that is just before the start of this Kali Yuga, Vedic civilisation do exist, Please refer to "Itihasa" - Mahabharata on the storu of "Chandrahasan" -Mahabharata is considered as "Fifth Veda" - Why the modern scholars don't want to recongnize these facts? - Puzzling

3. There is no gainsaying that there was a major shake-up during the Vijayanagar
empire period and the Maratha period, that saw thousands of people migrating
from the present day Andhra Pradesh (comprising coastal Andhra, Southern
Rayalaseema), Karnataka and Maharashtra to Tamilnadu. While the Telugus spread
everywhere, Kannadigas were restricted to provincial capitals and the Marathas
concentrated in Thanjavur -Kumbakonam belt. (During the same period, Saurashtras
came to Tamilnadu and got settled in Madurai and Kumbakonam). All this because of
misrule of mughal emperors and the atrocities perpetrated by them on the Hindus.

Good observation - Very Sensible

The Iyengars of Tirupathi and Chittoor who were already part of the Tamil land continued
there even after the formation of states on linguistic basis, because of Lord Venkateswara.
Good observation - Very Sensible
4. Quite surprisingly, the exodus of Tamils - brahmins and others to neighbouring
states was very negligible, except for some brahmins settling down in Palghat
District of Kerala from Thanjavur district and some in Travancore, because of their
capabilities and accomplishments in academics, administration and music. The Rajahs
of Travancore patronised them liberally.

All this happened during the 400 year period spanning from 1500 AD to 1900 AD.
Good observation - Very Sensible
5. To my knowledge, the very word 'navy/naval' came from the Tamil word 'naavaai'
which means a sea-vessel, usually small. Thus, the Tamils were the pioneers in
crossing the seas for the purpose of trade etc. and in the process, established their
political supremacy in the entire south east Asia, besides Sri Lanka. They also took
Hinduism with them, wherever they went.

Good observation - Very Sensible

6. To quote some rare incidents of marriages between people of two different lands is
interesting but does not fill the history.


7. Finally, the brahmins becoming too greedy by usurping temple lands, exploiting the
lower classes by abdicating the self-imposed morals and values and becoming a
pawn in the hands of the invading Europeans for some 'deemed privileges and
honours' made them fall from the high pedestal they were occupying before.

But, that was the result of money-based economy casting its web on all the communities alike. For the sins committed by people of those generations, even the present generation suffers.

Do you have any records that "Brahmins" stole the temple lands?

Evenone has taken this as truth, please consider this ....... Brahmins did a lot of yagya, we have year round festivals and distributed the food and other items freely, Didn't we hoist the flag "anna kodi" at every turn of the festivals not for one day or 2 the entire months of "Rama Navami", "Krishna Jayanti" , Navrathri ?

Didn't we celebrate the festivals, giving the bounty to one and all around us.? That was a era of plenty.

Do you say we hoard the rice and other grains that come out of the harvest without giving to anyother section of society?

We didn't take the temple lands far from it, we made sure the God is attended strictly as per the "Agamic" injunctions. For we Know "Sivan sotthu kula nasham".

To put the record straight...

The kings out of respect and reverance gave the land as "Dhanam" to us, only that land, we asked people from other castes to look after while agreeing to sharing the bounty . Many copper plates from yester era confirms this. They ofcourse took it, without any protector we ran away from the villages. The deserted "Agraharams" are the testimony of our people sufferings.

They did the same thing to the temple lands also

This is precisely is what is happening today - the other castes people not only occupy the temple land, but they also are not sharing their due to the temple. I know in some villages, near Tanjore they turn to different religion , when asked to pay their due to temples.


Regards