"Complicatedism"

[Jaykay767]

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Dear KRS, I have not made any statement that I cannot backup with logic ! The example on sun rising tomo with religious beliefs & how people view it is just nonsense !. while u don't agree, I don't see any value in people making obvious statement saying - Ha, look people don't fight with each other because the sun always rises in the morn, Grass is green etc.. & because people fight on religious beliefs, they must be in doubt etc.. you may consider this as a pinnacle of philosophical work !. I am afraid, your last statement points to your ignorance & inability to understand deep philosophical works written in our scriptures.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

I freely admit to my ignorance on lots of things in my life. So, this may be one such.

But it is very revealing, when you interject 'ignorance of OUR SCRIPTURES' while discussing an intellectual inquiry of some one who has a different framework. If this is not fanaticism, I don't know what else it is!

What all I can say, is that, there are different strokes for different folks. Folks, who read this can make up their own minds on this.

So, we agree to disagree. Any further discussion between us on this will be profitless. Thanks.

Regards,
KRS

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Jakay767 Ji,

I am astonished by this statement of yours:

Actually, I am a follower of both schools of philosophy - Advaitam & Vishistadvatiam. Both schools of thought can lead to self realization.

Not the later part. But the first part. How does one follow both theologies, that are opposite to each other - the key word here is 'follow'?

I am afraid, you are either confused or don't know what you are talking about, with all due respect.

Regards,
KRS

 

[prasad1]

Mr. KRS,
I was laughing reading your statement:

I am afraid, you are either confused or don't know what you are talking about, with all due respect.

Can you expound on it? What is the difference in being 'confused' and 'not knowing'? What is that you respect? Just an observation, is it the politically correct way of calling a spade by its name?

 

[Govinda]

Dear JK,

Sangom ji had written in one of his posts that when God designed us humans if He wanted us to Realize Him.. He would have made us with a built in mechanism to realize Him eventually.
I fully agree with what Sangom ji wrote.

Ok let me ask you...even Gurujis and Rishis were once upon a time just ordinary beings who observed and focused on their surroundings and realized there is a Higher Entity.

They contemplated..meditated and attained revelation which they shared with others to uplift mankind.

Gurus are of many kinds .

1. Some Rishis - sanatkumaras, sapta-rishis and their progeny sages like Parasara, Vyasa, sukar etc. may be nithyasuris, they are inherently without karma, and aided the Creator in the propagation of Vedas/and its understanding of Reality for the uplift of mankind. Even some individuals, alwars, some acharyas, attained liberation at their own effort/dhyana-Bhakti yoga. But, I would say, these are were devoid of Karma, and hence completely omniscient/jnyanis, and have taken birth purely as a service to the Lord. So, they donot have to observe or learn from basics or from nature!

Plus, when we become their disciples, and by serving them, we will be included in their dhyana yoga for liberation. Else, it is doubtful, Krishna is going to even come to our rescue, assuming our part-tme bhakti/word-sake-surrender.

2. There are gurus, who were other gods/devAs, who incarnated to reveal some truths, but not completely in tune with the Vedas, their's is also service to the Lord, to help redirect the misled (good) or wild guys (demons). Like Sankara, Buddha, Kapila etc. [dont include jesus or etc.., who are non-vedic] Their idea is not liberation, but elevation of peoples' status (of life or mind). All other gods can grant various titles, positions, power or lokAs, but not Moksha.[BG - 18:66]

3. There are these recent gurus, who are self-made thru propaganda, becos there are gullible people who are stuck in the mess of karma's, and needed some rescue who cannot focus on the higher goals. Obviously, if someone has a handicapped son, where would they go for solace? Such gurus help them as they are hlpful in person. Doctors are not allowed to talk more and personally and are commodity (money & time) based. Why blame doctors, all people are calculative, society lacks social values

Now let me tell you a simple story...anyone can be endowed with an awakened higher perception.

Now these are simple people who cant read and write ..who do not have any so called organized religion but yet their words echoed what Lord Krishna said in Geeta..Karmanyevadhikaraste Ma Phaleshu Kadacana.

So now tell me....How did the Penan tribal man know about this??

That's becos their senses are still alive, not like the city-dwellers, whose senses have become numb and utilitarian!

God speaks through pure hearts cos God has instilled in us a built in system to Realize Him.

I agree. But, that built in system is the jnana attribute of the Soul/Self (that grows by enriching the sattva guna attributes of the Self and Body). So, Realization is a self-effort, not just by sitting in the corner and meditating about VOID, but enriching one's Self through many sAstric ways of eating right food, doing right things and engaging senses and mind in the right way.

If God could give realization to everyone, He could have just done that without this Unvierse, or karma or our births. Then what is the difference between 'us' and the eternals-suris who are always at His service. So, He, the creator is generous enough to give us all resources, to make our own effort and earn that realization, so Such Knowledge would last longer. Only the HEATED RED IRON ROD could be easily bent into service/shapes!

 

[renuka]

Then what is the difference between 'us' and the eternals-suris who are always at His service.

Dear Sir,

There is no difference in the technical sense cos everyone the mere "us" or the Nithya Suris are also Jeevaatmas.

Vishisthdvaita might want to classify Jeevas as :

1)Bhaddha Jeeva...those in bondage and go through the cycles of life and death in the ocean of Sansar

2)Mukthas..who have been released from the bondage

3)Nithya Suris who were never bound to start with and eternally free.


But if you look at the 3 categories...the underlying fact remains that all 3 are Jeevaatmas.

Like in simple words:

Ice, Water and Steam...all are 3 different forms of the same H20.

 

[Govinda]

Dear Sir,

There is no difference in the technical sense cos everyone the mere "us" or the Nithya Suris are also Jeevaatmas.

Vishisthdvaita might want to classify Jeevas as :

1)Bhaddha Jeeva. 2)Mukthas. 3)Nithya Suris

But if you look at the 3 categories...the underlying fact remains that all 3 are Jeevaatmas.

Like in simple words:

Ice, Water and Steam...all are 3 different forms of the same H20.

Renuka Madam,

You cant clean/wash yourself with ice, ice is not flexible, like our cold-hearts. But, it can help us to recover from wound/sufferings, and spark the fire of desire/life to continue our samsara.

Water is useful and flowing and can become steam, its kind is flexible to acquire jnana like pre-muktas.

Steam can move an engine and melt an hard ice, thus those nitya-suris, with their jnana
help us elevate!

Thus, matter can be under one category, but still have varying attributes for various functions!

Like, beings can one genus, as living beings, but humans are different from animals in cognition and other behaviors (attributes/svabhava).

Plus, those categories are explained in BG :

There are two kinds of Purusha/jivas - the perishable (Kshara/bhadda) and the imperishable (Akshara/muktas-liberated). 15:16
There is the Supreme Person other than these, He is that Supreme Self paramAtma, who entering the threefold world, supports it 15:17
He, who , without delusion thus knows Me as the Supreme Self, knows all 15:18

 

[renuka]

Plus, those categories are explained in BG :

There are two kinds of Purusha/jivas - the perishable (Kshara/bhadda) and the imperishable (Akshara/muktas-liberated). 15:16
There is the Supreme Person other than these, He is that Supreme Self paramAtma, who entering the threefold world, supports it 15:17
He, who , without delusion thus knows Me as the Supreme Self, knows all 15:18

Dear Govinda ji,

Lord Krishna's explanation about the 2 types >>the Kshara and the Akshara is about the state of consciousness of the Jeeva...whether he is bound or he is free.

It is just like how we say he is an child and he is an adult...a child needs to grow to become and adult but in both states one still is a human.

So same way...from Kshara one needs to become Akshara..that is main tune of the Geeta ..Self Discovery.

BTW I have a question here..since I am not familiar with Vishisthadvaita.

It's about Nithya Suris..

When God created everything...everything was pure and equal.

What was the determining factor who became a human and who became a Nithya Suri when at creation Karma had not yet started kicking in.

If God had randomly made Humans and some Nithya Suris without any criteria that would mean that God is unfair and more like a Non Hindu concept of God who yields a magic wand and Lo Behold..He creates Angels, Humans and Demons.

BTW is Nithyasuri a fixed postion that is sole monopoly of a person or is it a position to be held and anyone can be appointed ? like the position of Indra(Devendra) is not the sole property of a person and he is only Indra for a specific period of time till the next round of elections when the parliament is dissolved(Pralaya)

 

[renuka]

I know this statement of mine might not go down well with many here but I would just like some feedback.

But when I start to read about Vishistadvaita..I get a feeling that Ramanujas thoughts of the concept of God and Jeevas and its distinct states somehow seems to have an Islamic influence.

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear KRS, Many people follow Vedic religion, Bible & Islam. They are contradictory in many ways ?. so are you saying one should not follow contradictory religions, theology ?. what a bizzare comment ?. I am afraid it only shows your confusion, ignorance & don't know what you are talking about ?

 

[Jaykay767]

Prasad, Pl refrain from your silly comments. if I give back, you will go back crying to the moderator/Praveen like the last time. Pl continue your comments if you can only take it back from me. anyways it is thoroughly pointless & useless to argue with you !!

 

[Jaykay767]

Prasad, Pl refrain from your silly comments. if I give back, you will go back crying to the moderator/Praveen like the last time. Pl continue your comments if you can only take it back from me. anyways it is thoroughly pointless & useless to argue with you !!

 

[sarang]

Ramanuja did not invent vishishtadwaitam. It is as old as vedas and there are many upanishadic vakyas to support this. In fact there are more mahavakyas supporting nonadwaitam.

Of course, one needs a different frame of mind to study the three major siddhantas.

I know this statement of mine might not go down well with many here but I would just like some feedback.

But when I start to read about Vishistadvaita..I get a feeling that Ramanujas thoughts of the concept of God and Jeevas and its distinct states somehow seems to have an Islamic influence.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

Yes, there are folks who 'appreciate' some other religion's philosophy that appeals to them and they 'follow' that aspect as a part of their own religion. Yes, I have visited the grave of a certain Muslim saint with my family when I was young, not because we were following Islam, but because we looked at that saint with our Hindu perspective. When I go to a church, I pray to God as a Hindu, and not as a Christian, because their belief system is alien to me (just different, as I was not born in to that). By doing these, I can never claim that I follow those religions.

Same way, when you are a follower of Advaitha, just because you worship Vishnu, does not make you a follower of Visishtadwaitha, because following that philosophy implies certain beliefs, which are antithical to Advaitha beliefs. Ask a follower of Visishtadwaitha - he will clearly tell you those differences.

This is the difference.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS, Many people follow Vedic religion, Bible & Islam. They are contradictory in many ways ?. so are you saying one should not follow contradictory religions, theology ?. what a bizzare comment ?. I am afraid it only shows your confusion, ignorance & don't know what you are talking about ?

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear KRS, unfortunately, you have not seen the world like many of us. I will show you people in US, who follow Christianity & Islam theology, worship in Church & Mosques. I can also organize some meetings for you so that you can understand how one person can follow contradictory philosophies - it will broaden your perspective. It will show you how you can be a muslim & worship in the Mosque & be a Christian & worship in the Church !! In the search for self realization, one has to shed the ahamkaram & study the philosophy of all the great Guru's of the world if even they are contradictory. Only the radical right wing fanatic who constantly questions how can one follow contradictory religions & calls everyone else as infidel. I am afraid you are sounding like a fanatic & refusing to allow a good debate on all religions & beliefs !!

 

[Govinda]

I know this statement of mine might not go down well with many here but I would just like some feedback.But when I start to read about Vishistadvaita..I get a feeling that Ramanujas thoughts of the concept of God and Jeevas and its distinct states somehow seems to have an Islamic influence?.

If you say something, you got to prove/justify your views/opinions. So, the ball is in your court, to explain how Vishishtadvaitam has an islamic influence. I always thought, most sumerians were the advaitins/saivites, jewish ideas evolved from saivism.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

I am muffling discussion? Wow!

Anyways, there is only one great Hindu Soul who said that he worshiped as a Christian and a Muslim and found that those worships went to the same God. His name was Paramahamsa.

Sir, I was married to a Jew, there are Christians in my family of all shades, I have Buddhist friends, I have many Muslim friends, both here in USA and India.

I have been living in the US for the past 42 years and traveled extensively around the world, staying at different countries on work, long enough to observe the traditions and culture.

I am a catholic at heart in true sense. I do not believe that there is only one way to God (or self realization). I am saying all this, because I want you to understand the context in which I am posting my ideas.

Again to appreciate and respect a theology different from one's own is one thing. But to truly pray as a Muslim in a mosque, one has to be a Muslim, in all it's total sense. The means, one has to live a Muslim life, starting with the idea that there is only one God called Allah and Mohammed was His messenger. They do not recognize either the Christian God or the Jewish God, even though all three stemmed from the same teachings of old bible.

I appreciate your yearning to bring all religions together (by the way, there is a religion that does that too and they have their own ideology), but by definition, you can not separate the theological points one does not agree with and say that you can be a follower of a theology only with points you like. This is my point.

So, when a Muslim or a evangelical Christian looks at a Hindu, they believe that he is not going to heaven and not saved. This is part of their theology. One can not be a Muslim or this type of Christian if one does not accept this theological point.

I am not saying whether this is right or wrong. I am saying, this is why so many religions exist today. You can not confuse your catholic attitude with being identified as a true follower of any of these theologies, that are not your own.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS, unfortunately, you have not seen the world like many of us. I will show you people in US, who follow Christianity & Islam theology, worship in Church & Mosques. I can also organize some meetings for you so that you can understand how one person can follow contradictory philosophies - it will broaden your perspective. It will show you how you can be a muslim & worship in the Mosque & be a Christian & worship in the Church !! In the search for self realization, one has to shed the ahamkaram & study the philosophy of all the great Guru's of the world if even they are contradictory. Only the radical right wing fanatic who constantly questions how can one follow contradictory religions & calls everyone else as infidel. I am afraid you are sounding like a fanatic & refusing to allow a good debate on all religions & beliefs !!

 

[renuka]

If you say something, you got to prove/justify your views/opinions. So, the ball is in your court, to explain how Vishishtadvaitam has an islamic influence. I always thought, most sumerians were the advaitins/saivites, jewish ideas evolved from saivism.

Dear Govinda ji,

Firstly its like a Bhava of the De ja vu kind...the familiar feeling "where have I read this before?"

Ok here goes...Abrahamic religions somehow have distinct dualistic views about souls of humans and God and will never be Mahavakyic as in Aham Brahmaasmi/Tat Tvam Asi.

The emphasis will be only on worship and service of God and the type of Bhakti advocated is Dasya Bhakti even after liberation...eg Angels of Abrahamic Religions =Nithya Suris of Vishisthadvaita.

The same is also seen in Vishistadvaita which in my opinion eventually leads to Fundamentalism.

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear KRS, I am surprised by your comments. are u saying a true muslim is one who believes others are infidel & go to hell.?, are u saying a true Christian is one who believes those who follow the Vedic religion has to go to hell. these are the views held by a small minority of radical right wingers. are you saying none of us can go to a Mosque & pray OR go to a church & pray. so now, you are going to tell us how we cannot follow multiple, contradictory theology?. I am sure, you can show a million differences between these religions & continue to argue that they are different & cause divisiveness. I on the other hand would like to support the other group which believes there are good things in each religion that we can adopt & promote peace. you don't need to follow any religion to understand the theology of each of them. There are NO rigidities in the house of God - the truly religious have no interest in showing others as bad, they are only interested in the pursuit of God, truth & self realization.

 

[Jaykay767]

Dear KRS, I am surprised by your comments. are u saying a true muslim is one who believes others are infidel & go to hell.?, are u saying a true Christian is one who believes those who follow the Vedic religion has to go to hell. these are the views held by a small minority of radical right wingers. are you saying none of us can go to a Mosque & pray OR go to a church & pray. so now, you are going to tell us how we cannot follow multiple, contradictory theology?. I am sure, you can show a million differences between these religions & continue to argue that they are different & cause divisiveness. I on the other hand would like to support the other group which believes there are good things in each religion that we can adopt & promote peace. you don't need to follow any religion to understand the theology of each of them. There are NO rigidities in the house of God - the truly religious have no interest in showing others as bad, they are only interested in the pursuit of God, truth & self realization !

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

The question is not whether one should not have a catholic outlook. I know you appreciate all religions. Me too. But just because we take the part of theology of a religion and incorporate it in our belief system, does not make us the 'followers' of that religion - this is my point.

Yes, majority of Muslims (probably 98% or more) believe that as a Hindu you won't go to their definition of heaven. This has nothing to do with them being right wingers or fundamentalists. Because of their theology, which teaches this, they believe this. This is why conversion is encouraged and trying to leave Islam in most Islamic countries is treated as a serious crime punishable with death. This is Islam, and it is what it is. Just because you and I think, because of our beliefs and background differently, does not matter. In fact, it has no relevance. Major sections of mainstream Christianity believe in similar vein about getting to heaven, but perhaps not as harsh as Islam about people leaving the faith.

This is how the current world is. What you are describing is an ideal world, which, I am afraid will never come in to being. Because, religion is tied to one's culture and identity. For a very majority of folks on this earth, they can never overcome the security that identity provides with family and community support. I don't see anything wrong with this.

Regards,
KRS

Dear KRS, I am surprised by your comments. are u saying a true muslim is one who believes others are infidel & go to hell.?, are u saying a true Christian is one who believes those who follow the Vedic religion has to go to hell. these are the views held by a small minority of radical right wingers. are you saying none of us can go to a Mosque & pray OR go to a church & pray. so now, you are going to tell us how we cannot follow multiple, contradictory theology?. I am sure, you can show a million differences between these religions & continue to argue that they are different & cause divisiveness. I on the other hand would like to support the other group which believes there are good things in each religion that we can adopt & promote peace. you don't need to follow any religion to understand the theology of each of them. There are NO rigidities in the house of God - the truly religious have no interest in showing others as bad, they are only interested in the pursuit of God, truth & self realization.

 

[sarang]

Ten thousand srivaishnavites were murdered in srirangam temple by malik kapur and his army.

Your definition and understanding of fundamentalism is definitely skewed. A brake is necessary before sparks fly.

The same is also seen in Vishistadvaita which in my opinion eventually leads to Fundamentalism.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sri Jaykay767 Ji,

The question is not whether one should not have a catholic outlook. I know you appreciate all religions. Me too. But just because we take the part of theology of a religion and incorporate it in our belief system, does not make us the 'followers' of that religion - this is my point.

Yes, majority of Muslims (probably 98% or more) believe that as a Hindu you won't go to their definition of heaven. This has nothing to do with them being right wingers or fundamentalists. Because of their theology, which teaches this, they believe this. This is why conversion is encouraged and trying to leave Islam in most Islamic countries is treated as a serious crime punishable with death. This is Islam, and it is what it is. Just because you and I think, because of our beliefs and background differently, does not matter. In fact, it has no relevance. Major sections of mainstream Christianity believe in similar vein about getting to heaven, but perhaps not as harsh as Islam about people leaving the faith.

This is how the current world is. What you are describing is an ideal world, which, I am afraid will never come in to being. Because, religion is tied to one's culture and identity. For a very majority of folks on this earth, they can never overcome the security that identity provides with family and community support. I don't see anything wrong with this.

Regards,
KRS

Shri KRS & Shri Jaykay,

The truth is that none of the religions or religious beliefs will lead anyone to heaven, liberation or self-realization, etc. But when a human being has spent almost his entire life believing in one or more religions — successively or simultaneously also — the ego or "ahamkAra" inbuilt into the human psyche will not allow him/her to admit his/her folly. Like the fox in the fable which got its tail cut and then fell into a tub of dye, the human psyche will try to project that whatever he/she has so far done regarding god, religion, liberation, salvation, self-realization etc., had been the best of choices and this will induce the gullible people to follow the beaten track. I don't consider that even Ramakrishna or Vivekananda (or for that matter any of the so-called gurujis) were exceptions to this rule.

If there is a God, it is that which makes you a live being and sustains that life in your body. All of us - with no exceptions - including the great sages and acharyas come here to experience the karmaphalas of their accumulated Karmas. All of us play our roles according to a script, and having played out our respective roles thus scripted out, the personality or ego in each one of us perishes without trace. This is true of Hitler or Ashoka. What remains is only the balance of karma carried forward to the new page (birth) as some x,y or z.

Religions are the culprits which create the notion of continuity of the "I" ness, propose hell and heaven (which is very close to our Rigvedic pitruloka) or souls and transmigration, etc. Only when people get out of this trap of mAyA created by religions will humanity be progressing really.

 

[renuka]

Ten thousand srivaishnavites were murdered in srirangam temple by malik kapur and his army.

Your definition and understanding of fundamentalism is definitely skewed. A brake is necessary before sparks fly.

Dear Sarang ji,

That was an incident in history.
In fights anyone can kill anyone.

I was talking about the similarity of VA and Abrahamic Religions that lead to Fundamentalism.

 

[renuka]

Dear Sarang ji,

I had asked a question in Forum today but yet to receive an answer from the member may be he had not seen the question yet.

I admit that my knowledge in VA is close to nothing but I have a doubt here and I am pasting this question again.

I hope you can help clear my doubt.



It's about Nithya Suris..

When God created everything...everything was pure and equal.

What was the determining factor to decide who became a human and who became a Nithya Suri when at creation Karma had not yet started kicking in.

If God had randomly made Humans and some Nithya Suris without any criteria that would mean that God is unfair and more like a Non Hindu concept of God who yields a magic wand and Lo Behold..He creates Angels, Humans and Demons.

BTW is Nithyasuri a fixed postion that is sole monopoly of a person or is it a position to be held and anyone can be appointed ? like the position of Indra(Devendra) is not the sole property of a person and he is only Indra for a specific period of time till the next round of elections when the parliament is dissolved(Pralaya)