Define a Brahmin please!!

[kunjuppu]

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Harini,

I think we need to think twice, before we say that tambrams were and are, driven out of tamil nadu.

Our emigration started in the 1920s, when the british governments & estates, of the then spread out india (including burma), Malaya, Ceylon needed clerks. Thankfully, for whatever reason, tambrams had taken to education, and due to large families, were able to be a source of seemingly unending supply of paper pushers.

Mass migration to the north started immediately post independence, with the rapid expansion of industries and central government. I think the area ramakrishnapuram, was essentially founded by tambrams, who wanted to get out of the stuffiness of karol bagh.

The simple fact was tambrams, for a very long time, did not depend on the government for jobs, for the govt jobs even in those times were few in number, and were poor pay masters. Anyone with a little sense of adventure, ambition to move upscale and build a better life than the claustrophobic agraharams, moved out.

Harini, you might notice, that we always moved where opportunities are. Today the largest concentration of our youngsters are in Chennai, b’lore and Hyderabad. Not in the north. Those that grew up in the north, are moving south.

All I am saying, is that discrimination or not, as a community, we are of a survival kind and can eke out more than a living with our own wits and hard work. Ok?

 

[suraju06]

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

I think we need to think twice, before we say that tambrams were and are, driven out of tamil nadu.Our emigration started in the 1920s, when the british governments & estates, of the then spread out india (including burma), Malaya, Ceylon needed clerks. Thankfully, for whatever reason, tambrams had taken to education, and due to large families, were able to be a source of seemingly unending supply of paper pushers.

If I see an obsession with calling TBs as "clerks" and "paper pushers" will I be wrong? I do not understand this. Clerical work or "paper pushing" is a process which is part of any business. After the advent of computers, may be, this has become less-only less-important. Still I write down an algorithm on a paper before coding it as I find it convenient. So Kunjuppu Sir, I object to the way you have used these terms.

Anyone with a little sense of adventure, ambition to move upscale and build a better life than the claustrophobic agraharams, moved out.

Again you are calling the house in an agraharam as claustrophobic. May I know the reason? My ancestral home in an agraharam is the best house I have lived in so far. It was cool and airy with adequate light and privacy. Moreover there was 'life' in the house. What more can you ask for? My childhood in that house was a very pleasant and memorable one. Not claustrophobic by any standard. So dear Kunjuppu Sir, my objection number 2 is to your calling agraharam houses as claustrophobic without adequate reason. It is from these agraharams that IIT, Wharton, Harvard and MIT materials have come out.

Harini, you might notice, that we always moved where opportunities are. Today the largest concentration of our youngsters are in Chennai, b’lore and Hyderabad. Not in the north. Those that grew up in the north, are moving south. All I am saying, is that discrimination or not, as a community, we are of a survival kind and can eke out more than a living with our own wits and hard work. Ok?

Amen!

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

suraju,

it is once again how i express myself in english. i have no problem explaining.

re If I see an obsession with calling TBs as "clerks" and "paper pushers" will I be wrong? I do not understand this. Clerical work or "paper pushing" is a process which is part of any business. After the advent of computers, may be, this has become less-only less-important. Still I write down an algorithm on a paper before coding it as I find it convenient. So Kunjuppu Sir, I object to the way you have used these terms.

suraju, you might have noticed that i mentioned 'starting 1920s'. afaik, it is only in the 50s, that the bulk of emigration from south were graduates.

my emphasis was the early pattern of migration, where most passed 10th class, were versed somewhat in english and double entry accounting, typing etc. to outfit them for clerical jobs - many in the rubber, tin estates of malaya, lumber estates of burma, and government offices spread all over north, including peshawar & karachi.

there was no intention to denigrate; so i request you not to understand such insinuation in my note, where none meant.

re Again you are calling the house in an agraharam as claustrophobic. May I know the reason? My ancestral home in an agraharam is the best house I have lived in so far. It was cool and airy with adequate light and privacy. Moreover there was 'life' in the house. What more can you ask for? My childhood in that house was a very pleasant and memorable one. Not claustrophobic by any standard. So dear Kunjuppu Sir, my objection number 2 is to your calling agraharam houses as claustrophobic without adequate reason. It is from these agraharams that IIT, Wharton, Harvard and MIT materials have come out.

once again, let me explain.

i was not talking about the physical structures of the houses. i am quite sure these were well thought out, and extremely airy and homely, as i myself have experienced in kalpathi and pallipuram villages of palghat.

mine was more an observation of the social atmosphere and the rather closely inhabited curious nosey and 'everyone knows everyone else's affairs' lifestyle. it is the lifestyle of any gramam where social interaction often was only with one's own community, and one can sometimes be overwhelmed by the apparent lack of privacy or the monotony of the same company.

again, there is no affront meant, and it is the way i saw it. you are most welcome to disagree, but please do not interpret my notes in any way other than what was meant.

re harvard, wharton et al, i dont know how they look as i have not been there.

i studied in iit madras, again it was a way to get out of home, as i think it was purely accidental that i was admitted.

some people find certain environments stifling, whereas others might find the same, very invigorating. it is all personal. very personal.

hope this explains. thankyou.

 

[Harini]

city do no damage to disolve our identity!

Harini,

I think we need to think twice, before we say that tambrams were and are, driven out of tamil nadu.

Sir, I was only telling that there is no need to define a Brahmin when you are in Tamilnadu for the society here recognize you as a one no matter what aberration that you are to any definition of Brahmin. The program of Neeya Naana in Vijay TV this week concluded that the cities were created in this world so that people can loose their identity and work only with the identity of an employee of an employer. But I do not think that any city in Tamilnadu has succeeded in erasing the identity of a Brahmin. In fact a Brahmin has successfully carried his social identity even to countries like US and is just short now of forming 'agraharams'. But if one is very desperate to throw one's identity as a Brahmin, perhaps he has to run away to places like France or Canada

 

[kunjuppu]

Sir, I was only telling that there is no need to define a Brahmin when you are in Tamilnadu for the society here recognize you as a one no matter what aberration that you are to any definition of Brahmin. The program of Neeya Naana in Vijay TV this week concluded that the cities were created in this world so that people can loose their identity and work only with the identity of an employee of an employer. But I do not think that any city in Tamilnadu has succeeded in erasing the identity of a Brahmin. In fact a Brahmin has successfully carried his social identity even to countries like US and is just short now of forming 'agraharams'. But if one is very desperate to throw one's identity as a Brahmin, perhaps he has to run away to places like France or Canada

sorry harini, i am unable to follow or understand what you are trying to tell me.

i think we carry our heritage wherever we go. we pass some of it to our children, and they inturn acquire an heritage, which i think, is a sum, of what is passed separately from either parent, their surroundings, their friends and the society where they live. which in turn gets passed on and on.

maybe i misunderstood your earliest post, re tambrams being driven away from tamil nadu. that is all i wished to dispute.

the only one statement that i wish to disagree absolutely is your last statement. one can discard whatever he wants or inherited, and live on one's own terms anywhere in the world. it is something, that i would not have said 40 years ago, but with ageing and experience, and also seeing folks who define their morals and standards, and living upto it, whether it be in chennai or toronto, i have gradually come to accept it.

one just cannot run away from oneself. for like our shadow, 'ourself' is within us. it defines us. hope this explains. somewhat?

i thank you.

ps.. i watched about 20 minutes of this weeks's neeya naana that you quoted. found there was not enough difference between the two factions, atleast the way i saw it. so moved on to other stuff

 

[biswa]

Mr. Kunjuppu I think we are asking quite clearly: why did you run away to Canada? (not France I am guessing even though ppl in Quebec speak French).

Is it to "throw" your identity as a Brahmin?

 

[suraju06]

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,

mine was more an observation of the social atmosphere and the rather closely inhabited curious nosey and 'everyone knows everyone else's affairs' lifestyle. it is the lifestyle of any gramam where social interaction often was only with one's own community, and one can sometimes be overwhelmed by the apparent lack of privacy or the monotony of the same company.

The life in villages was quite open every one knowing every one else. There were not many secrets. You are right when you say there was apparent lack of privacy. But then that kind of life style was chosen by the people who lived in Villages.The interactions were not only with one's own community but with other communities also in the village. It was not as if the agraharam community lived a separate life unknown to other communities in the village. In a society in which each community chose to live in separate clusters there were more opportunities for one family to interact with its neighbours than with others living in other clusters.

Whether the overwhelming intrusive stifling style of living was a better one or the modern I cant care less attitude with the secluded life within four walls of your house/flat is better is a question which can be discussed separately. The active involvement with others is a monotony or not is also a question which will bring forth different answers.

Thanks.
Cheers.

 

[Harini]

one can discard whatever he wants or inherited, and live on one's own terms anywhere in the world. it is something, that i would not have said 40 years ago, but with ageing and experience, and also seeing folks who define their morals and standards, and living upto it, whether it be in chennai or toronto, i have gradually come to accept it.

one just cannot run away from oneself. for like our shadow, 'ourself' is within us. it defines us. hope this explains. somewhat?

No matter we discard or distort the society will tag us the way it know of us. Therefore I say that the definition is not with us but with the others who have tagged us. Whether we are going to live up to their expectation or startle them is altogether a different thing.

Neeya Naana is a bit long program and with advertisements it is not worth seeing. But I have IP TV connection from BSNL and therefore I see the recording of it (Available free of cost for a week) and doing fast forward of all the commercials. Thus I do not loose interest till I get the conclusion of it. Neeya Naana concluded last week by saying that the Corporate culture and Urban life style are deliberately designed to make one forget their identity and roots.

 

[kunjuppu]

Mr. Kunjuppu I think we are asking quite clearly: why did you run away to Canada? (not France I am guessing even though ppl in Quebec speak French).

Is it to "throw" your identity as a Brahmin?

biswa,

i was 23. india was ruled by indira gandhi. three were no opportunities for jobs. in my class of 225 students barely 60 got jobs on graduation. the social atmosphere was stifling. hope those reasons are enough. the reast are personal which i do not wish to share.

the same situation today? probably i would have found my space within india and lived pretty fine.

this is all you get from me.

ie france? never entered my mind. canada has always been a kind country and has let me live on my terms.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Kunjuppu Sir,



The life in villages was quite open every one knowing every one else. There were not many secrets. You are right when you say there was apparent lack of privacy. But then that kind of life style was chosen by the people who lived in Villages.The interactions were not only with one's own community but with other communities also in the village. It was not as if the agraharam community lived a separate life unknown to other communities in the village. In a society in which each community chose to live in separate clusters there were more opportunities for one family to interact with its neighbours than with others living in other clusters.

Whether the overwhelming intrusive stifling style of living was a better one or the modern I cant care less attitude with the secluded life within four walls of your house/flat is better is a question which can be discussed separately. The active involvement with others is a monotony or not is also a question which will bring forth different answers.

Thanks.
Cheers.

dear suraju,

while i agree with the general tone of your post, I think when you talk of ‘choice’, I am not so sure.

If one was born and lived in the village, was it not by default most Brahmins lived in the agraharam? How much of a social reaction did they have with other communities? Certainly not to the extent of visiting and dining, as a rule, except may be on occasions? I don’t know.

I think people moved to the cities then, as like today, for opportunities. It may be good to remember that in those days, of large families, there seldom was enough jobs or occupations to take care of so many young mouths. Also, the death of the family head, could cause havoc.

I agree that we tend to nostalgize and say that those were good old days, but I always am very reluctant to accept the ‘good old days’ concept. We tend to forget the numerous inconveniences, such things basic as the absence running water and flush toilet. Ofcourse as men, we had it easy, but it was certainly hard on the womenfolk, even to start an aduppu in the morning for a cup of coffee. Nothing like turning on the gas stove and heating milk from the fridge and coffee in a few minutes.

I think those days and communal congregations as seen in the villages of those times are gone. Gone forever. the last time, I went to kalpathi, I saw nairs and theeyas moving in. my vathiar told me that in his agraharam in kumbakonam muslims have bought houses. Apparently, for all the nostalgia, Brahmins do not care who they sell their houses to, or maybe there are not any Brahmins around to buy the old agraharam houses.

 

[kunjuppu]

No matter we discard or distort the society will tag us the way it know of us. Therefore I say that the definition is not with us but with the others who have tagged us. Whether we are going to live up to their expectation or startle them is altogether a different thing.

Neeya Naana is a bit long program and with advertisements it is not worth seeing. But I have IP TV connection from BSNL and therefore I see the recording of it (Available free of cost for a week) and doing fast forward of all the commercials. Thus I do not loose interest till I get the conclusion of it. Neeya Naana concluded last week by saying that the Corporate culture and Urban life style are deliberately designed to make one forget their identity and roots.

harini,

i watch neeya naana from tamilo.com, which comes clean of commercials.

i would take the decisions from neeya naana with a grain of salt, particularly what the 'experts' say. it is an entertaining program, no more, no less. and definitely not an authority on current sociology of tamil life. atleast i think so.

 

[Harini]

The conclusions are interesting. May be one day he will take this forum question!

The conclusions of this program is always is left with the open question of 'Neeya Naana' and Gopinath seldom claims authority. I was told that the recording for this 1 + hour program goes on for more than 5 hours. It is the editing that makes it interesting and not the conclusion

 

[Harini]

In Neeya Naana program one could see the anchor easily identifying the caste and community of the participants without any trouble. The show managers definitely cannot ask for such details before the program (but it is possible to gain information on profession and so identifying a teacher or a IT professional may be from the info submitted) and so it is very obvious that the definition of every community is there in the subconscious mind of those who are informed. But the alacrity with which this show handle caste issues are commendable

 

[Harini]

A brahmin is one who believes in karma and is detached from materialistic pleasures.

Then Lord Rama should be a Brahmin and so is sage Vaalmikhi. I don't think the definition is possible by ideals and definitions will not be accepted based on genetics. A Brahmin is one who is referred as a Brahmin by the immediate society and nothing more.

 

[Yamaka]

A brahmin is one who believes in karma and is detached from materialistic pleasures.

Perhaps this was true about 500-1000 years ago. Not today.

Anyone who is born to a Brahmin father is a Brahmin, whether are not he/she believes in Karma or detached from materialistic pleasures, so says the Society.

That's how the Hindu Caste System became Tyrannical and Oppressive...and this Rigid Caste Hierarchy is India's contribution to Human Civilization, Lol.

Cheers.

 

[nachi naga]

Perhaps this was true about 500-1000 years ago. Not today.

Anyone who is born to a Brahmin father is a Brahmin, whether are not he/she believes in Karma or detached from materialistic pleasures, so says the Society.

That's how the Hindu Caste System became Tyrannical and Oppressive...and this Rigid Caste Hierarchy is India's contribution to Human Civilization, Lol.

Cheers.

actually lord krishna says to arjuna in detail and one must read it comprehend it and believe it.India never existed geographically like how it is now.since we are asking definition based on 3 million years back philosophy,the geography of the land must include various countries which are existing to day.USA is one among such territory which belonged to Sanathana Dharma of the ancients,imho.

 

[nachi naga]

those who realise brahman,whether saguna brahman or nirguna brahman is a brahmin.in a nutshell realise your self,you become god.

 

[sangom]

In today's circumstances I feel all those who earn by honest methods, pay all taxes, maintain a high degree of civic consciousness (this is specially for those living in India) and have compassion for suffering fellow-humans, should be rated as "brahmanas" or the best of the citizens irrespective of their religiosity, parentage, knowledge of scriptures and outward upholding of the so-called "sanatana dharma" and its rituals, etc.

 

[Harini]

Brahmin by birth

In today's circumstances I feel all those who earn by honest methods, pay all taxes, maintain a high degree of civic consciousness (this is specially for those living in India) and have compassion for suffering fellow-humans, should be rated as "brahmanas" or the best of the citizens irrespective of their religiosity, parentage, knowledge of scriptures and outward upholding of the so-called "sanatana dharma" and its rituals, etc.

This obviously means that a Brahmin by birth has got high probability of evolving as a Brahmin

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Hello Dr. I am one and alone and seeking company:eyebrows:

 

[Iyyarooraan]

Hello Dr. I am one and seeking Company:eyebrows:

 

[sangom]

This obviously means that a Brahmin by birth has got high probability of evolving as a Brahmin

Not necessarily Harini. In the absence of any reliable studies I believe (and it is a belief based on the people of different castes) that the probability will be more or less the same across all shades of humans. And in India most people will get disqualified due to their utter lack of civic sense, civic duties and responsibilities.

 

[Harini]

Not necessarily Harini. In the absence of any reliable studies I believe (and it is a belief based on the people of different castes) that the probability will be more or less the same across all shades of humans. And in India most people will get disqualified due to their utter lack of civic sense, civic duties and responsibilities.

When it is said as highly probable then it automatically means that it is 'not necessarily'. Also Brahmins are not a majority in India and so most of the Indians will automatically get disqualified.

Brahmins by birth are the Brahmins and they have greater propensity to follow the ideals for a Brahmin. There may be aberrations and some may fall out of the groove at one point or the other. But they will certainly make an attempt to get in to the groove

 

[subbudu1]

Definition of brahmins as in Bengal

I read something today, already aware of this, but makes an interesting reading. Some may already be aware of it.
Source
Marriage and rank in Bengali culture ... - Google Books

......................
The story goes like this 1300 years ago the ruler of Bengal AdiSura, was supposedly born in the clan of Dhanvantari. He was a king who performed a number of vedic sacrifices. However there came a situation when a particular rite could not be performed by the existing brahmanas in their country. Then five brahmans were invited from the middle country kalauncha by name, as per the advice of the brahmins. The brahmanas were supposed to be extremely great and posessed of supernatural powers. These five brahmins came to the kingdom along with their servants disguised as kshatriyas. The King was not convinced to see the sight of kshatriyas when he had requested for brahmins. The brahmins by their powers already knew that the king would doubt him. One of them picked up a dead wood and threw a flower on it. Immediately the wood came to life. This astonished the King and he enquired in detail about their gotras and lineages and was convinced fully when they completed the rite. The brahmins and kayasthas were distinguished by nine qualities which no other caste in Bengal supposedly had.

The five brahmins were invited along with their family and sons to settle down in the region of Radhi and the servants who were of exalted lineages became the famous kayasthas of highest ranks. Two of the Kayasthas, Datta and Guha did not possess all the 9 qualities expected and were not recognized in equal rank. There were therefore prevented from marrying the other three such as the Ghosh, Basu and Mitra.

There was a subsequent transformation in Bengal in 12-13 century during the rule of two sudra kings. The King Vallala Sena invited these descendants of brahmins and sudras who were brought in by AdiSura and divided them based on different reasons. The purpose of this division is to prevent the loss of Kula by ranking them. One of the things that were important was purity in marriage rules. Another seemed to be conduct. Some of the indigenous brahmins and shudras who followed or imitated the code of the high ranked immigrants were upgraded and allowed to give their daughters in marriage to the high ranked ones. There were others who were called Sadhya , ones yet to display good behaviour , yet considered potential. In meantime the King Nityananda married many of the different castes and his progeny from different castes emerged into new castes of Bengal.

The next transformation comes during the muslim rule. At this period there is no Government to maintain order with respect to purity and rank of marriages. Brahmins who worked for the muslim kings were initially considered low and opportunistic. But wealth and money played an important role and all the ranking of people seemed to be lost and the situation became chaotic. It was at this time the brahmin caste Raya-Ray became powerful as they worked for the rulers. In course of time even the rules banning marriage with people working for muslims was removed and only a marriage with muslim could destroy caste.

The writer mentions something interesting- While in the past marriage alone was not sufficient to bestow superior rank to a family, since the time of muslim rulers, marriage became a sufficient thing to attain a rank and there was no sufficient need to subscribe to vedic codes anymore. In later times in 15th and 16th century the caste council themselves hunted the geneaology of people and tried to create subclans and ranking , a job done earlier by the King.

 

[gopaindu]

Ms.Meghavarshini,
What is the objective behind this thread? If a person not born in a brahmin but possessing brahmin qualities or practicing like a brahmin is simply hypothetical. Secondly, a person practicing like a brahmin but not born in a brahmin family need not bother whether he is recognnised as a brahmin. Brahmins whether by birth or otherwise does not need recognition that he is a brahmin. Thirdly, who should recognise the person practising brahmin conventions to be a brahmin. In fact, brahmins are recognised as such by others and not by brahmins themselves. Of course, whether, he would be admitted into the group of brahmins is decided by a group of brahmins and that recognition is not valid for other groups of brahmins. Brahmins are not issued any certificate by any Government authority as such. Therefore, your question is not valid on facts. It is better that this thread is closed immediately. The discussion that has taken so far on this thread and on identical threads in my opinion is a waste of time. People, who want to kill their time, may of course, participate in such useless discussions. rajaji48

Namaskaram!!
I know many posts have been posted on this topic, ranging from marriage issues to traditional practices and social positions. Now many members posted many replies on a certain thread which dealt with inter caste marriages. My question is, is it not equally sinful for a 'practicing' Tamil Brahmin(please help me define one- I think it should definately include one whose theological and philosophical knowledge is profound and one who does not smoke, drink or eat non-vegetarian(mainly because Brahmins are supposed to follow a Satvik diet, this is the most basic pattern I can think of)) to marry one who may be the offspring of an unquestionably pious Brahmin family but may not be 'Brahmin' himself/herself? How can such a marriage be considered Brahmin?

A counter question is, what if a non-Brahmin is as Brahmin in practice as any Tamil Brahmin? Would exogamy be permitted then? Can they serve as priests, if they know all the mantras, their meaning and the Tatvas which, I know is a feature many Brahmin priests lack? The Arya Samaj would call them Brahmins, would we do the same? If, say a woman born to a Brahmin married a man Brahmin by Gunas, is she degrading herself?

I recall reading a lot of posts on genetics and hereditary traits among Brahmins. I recall a cousin of mine marrying a Brahmin 'suitable' who, well, was unorthodox(to put it in an understated way) and was praised by all for choosing to marry a Brahmin. When I pointed out that he was hardly Brahmin, I was told that no one was, really and I was being hypocritical, not to mention orthodox(by my mother, no less, who changed her gotra post marriage). I don't pretend to be a stickler for the rules(well, for the record I don't use the epithet Brahmin at all) but in that case, why all the show? Is that all we are, a mere bunch of middle-class and upper middle-class who wear a Thiruman Srichurnam (Namam is apparently a derogatory term, I was asked by a Swamiji not to use it) when required to?? Many replies seem to point in this direction. Another marriage, this time between a relative and a Syrian Christian only proved that castism is rooted in every Indian community(both sides opposed vehemently, giving the exact same points in opposition to the match and viewing the other with the exact same condescention.

I seriously doubt if my children are going to be Brahmin, or even Tamil for that matter(I think Hindi adn atheism will be keeping them occupied, whether they live in the U.S.A, Delhi or Chennai). But a clear curriculum for young children who are(by birth) or want to be Brahmin is in need. How much Sanskrit does one need? Tamil? Is English enough(I hope so)? Myths and blind faith will not help, so how does one instill the right values(ones that are peculiar to Brahmin families and devout members of other 'castes')?

A middle path- marry someone as 'Brahmin' as yourself. Well ok, so what happens if one wishes to marry a non-Brahmin(by birth) who is as 'Brahmin' as oneself? Or as 'non-Brahmin'(Gunas) as oneself? The only opposition then would some from society but hey, its just hypocrisy right?

Oh! I'm sorry, I did not mean to take a stand. I hope my questions will be answered.