Distortions in Indian History

[Nara]

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This how most of today's brahmins live and are proud of their heritage. To say that he fell ill and died because he cooked his own food is stupidity.

Haridas Siva and others, here is a glaring example of why there simply is no equivalency between our criticism of religion, brahminism, etc., and the side to which people like sarang belong. He could have said the view I expressed was wrong, factually not correct and many other things, but his choice was "stupidity". This is what I wanted to highlight in the Civility Watch thread I started that Praveen later closed.

Jumping from father hating ramanujan to math wizard ramanujan has been done with a hidden motive, I think.

Here is another one, questioning my motive. When will this personal vilification end? Those who draw a moral equivalency are indirectly contributing to this kind of behavior.

Excerpt from one of his lectures:

"His religion"

Was he religious? Certainly he observed his duties as a high-caste Hindu assiduously, like being a faultless vegetarian and cooking all his food himself (after changing into his pyjamas first).

After all the insulting comments, sarang essentially confirms the facts behind the view I stated. He did observe "his duties as a high-caste Hindu assiduously" and cooked his own food.

I leave it to the fair-minded in this forum to put a stop to personal invectives.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

Some more information on Ramanujan's health. He had to discontinue his studies due to failing health.

Quote:

Ramanujan joined Pachaiyapa’s College in Madras as a First Arts student in 1906 at the age of 19.He had already carved a niche as a mathematics wizard in Kombhakonam and Madras.Ramanujan was given a grant from the principal and he only had to pay half the fees.
*****
Due to Ramanujan’s excessive work at mathematics,his frail body succumbed to serious illness.He had to stop going to college.Later,when Ramanujan recovered from his long illness,he rejoined the college as a private candidate.He took the college examination a number of times,but he was unsuccessful.He had to stop going to college.

In UK:

Ramanujan was doing very well in his studies but his poor health made him worried.His health was continuously plummeting and finally,on February 27,1919,Ramanujan returned home to India.He was granted a handsome scholarship by Madras University and every possible facility was given to him for his research in Mathematics.

Due to his deep dedication to his work he became run down and caught tuberculosis (T.B).Despite his ill-health he continued to work hard but eventually he had to be admitted into hospital.Every possible effort was made to save his life,but on the fateful day April 26,1920,he passed away at the young age of 32.

http://biography-of.com/srinivasa-ramanujan

 

[kailash]

Shri Kailash,

Kamasutra, Arthasastra etc., also have survived similarly. But that does not make us to worship Vatsyayana or Chandrahupta Maurya or Vishnugupta as gods, why?

[artha] and [kAma] are divine, eternal and endless. [shAstra] are sacred knowledge on subjects. Vatsyayana or Vishnugupta have written treatises. Their readers and students may consider them guru, And guru may be considered saakshaat parabrahma.
[dharma] is divine, eternal and endless [sri rAmA] the historical person, his words and actions and his life is my [guru] saakshaat parabrahma and the saakshaat parabrahma of my ancestors near and remote.

I don't know what you mean by "us" - The reality is that there is only "me" and me alone. No guru is really going to come with me as friend companion, pastor, priest, shankaracarya, etc... when I go. [sri rAmA] will be there because he is [mokSha]. And I understand with being totally aware that [sri rAmA] has been my guru all along for [dharma] [artha] [kAma] and [mokSha]. I adore [valmiki], [hanumAn], [sitA devi], [lakShmaNa].

When the story of the Trojan horse is told as per school syllabus ... Ah that is Ravana in the guise of a Sanyasi begging for alms. And I don't trust Greeks or Italians bearing gifts. Particularly when their economy is in shambles. Nor will I support History Books supported by them.

The Hindu has been an enormous problem for people that wanted to convert simple believers in [deva] with concepts of "God".

 

[sangom]

[dharma] is divine, eternal and endless [sri rAmA] the historical person, his words and actions and his life is my [guru] saakshaat parabrahma and the saakshaat parabrahma of my ancestors near and remote.

I don't know what you mean by "us" - The reality is that there is only "me" and me alone. No guru is really going to come with me as friend companion, pastor, priest, shankaracarya, etc... when I go. [sri rAmA] will be there because he is [mokSha]. And I understand with being totally aware that [sri rAmA] has been my guru all along for [dharma] [artha] [kAma] and [mokSha]. I adore [valmiki], [hanumAn], [sitA devi], [lakShmaNa].

If as you say, there is only "me" and nothing else, how come Rama alone will be separate from this "me" and will either come with you, when you go or that Rama will be there to receive you wherever you finally reach?

When the story of the Trojan horse is told as per school syllabus ... Ah that is Ravana in the guise of a Sanyasi begging for alms. And I don't trust Greeks or Italians bearing gifts. Particularly when their economy is in shambles. Nor will I support History Books supported by them.

I find this difficult to decipher; what is the connection between the Trojan horse and Rama?

The Hindu has been an enormous problem for people that wanted to convert simple believers in [deva] with concepts of "God".

Is Rama a deva? If so which deva?

 

[kailash]

namaste sangom,

"If as you say, there is only "me" and nothing else, how come Rama alone will be separate from this "me" and will either come with you, when you go or that Rama will be there to receive you wherever you finally reach?"

Because I am kailash.

I find this difficult to decipher; what is the connection between the Trojan horse and Rama?

The story of the Trojan Horse is about Deception. Ravana uses deception in [sIta apaharAnaM]

Is Rama a deva? If so which deva?

The [deva] of the totality of [sanAtana dharmaM]

 

[kailash]

namaste,

I have been reading ANCIENT CALENDARS AND CONSTELLATIONS By the Hon. EMMELINE M. PLUNKET 1903. Which goes as usual about how every conquerors taught us to look at stars - the Sun and the Moon. And maintain calendars. and time etc.

The Book has the phrase "Biblical archeology". Which I never seen used before. And starts with Calendar of the Accadians. and they used a calendar that had sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 months. The first month was called - 1. Nisannu (or Nisan), which was deciphered from some archeo plates etc. etc. Nisannu according to the decipherment etc. meant the "sacrifice of righteousness"

I parsed this syllabically and looked up the Monier Williams Sanskrit English Dictionary 1899, And find

........pg.538 MW-Dict.
2. [ni] (for nI), mfn. See [Ruta-ni].
..........pg.223 MW-Dict.
[-ni](Ved. for [°nI]), mfn. leader of truth or righteousness, RV. ii, 27, 1 2
..........pg.1140 MW-Dict.
1. [san], cl. I. P., 8. P. A. (Dhatup.xiii, 21 ; xxx, 2)to gain, acquire, obtain as a gift, possess, enjoy, RV.; AV. ; Br. ; SrS. ; to gain for another, procure, bestow, give, distribute, RV. ; (A.) to be successful, be granted or fulfilled

Lo! That is Sanskrit!

 

[happyhindu]

namaste,

I have been reading ANCIENT CALENDARS AND CONSTELLATIONS By the Hon. EMMELINE M. PLUNKET 1903. Which goes as usual about how every conquerors taught us to look at stars - the Sun and the Moon. And maintain calendars. and time etc.

The Book has the phrase "Biblical archeology". Which I never seen used before. And starts with Calendar of the Accadians. and they used a calendar that had sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 months. The first month was called - 1. Nisannu (or Nisan), which was deciphered from some archeo plates etc. etc. Nisannu according to the decipherment etc. meant the "sacrifice of righteousness"

I parsed this syllabically and looked up the Monier Williams Sanskrit English Dictionary 1899, And find

........pg.538 MW-Dict.
2. [ni] (for nI), mfn. See [Ruta-ni].
..........pg.223 MW-Dict.
[-ni](Ved. for [°nI]), mfn. leader of truth or righteousness, RV. ii, 27, 1 2
..........pg.1140 MW-Dict.
1. [san], cl. I. P., 8. P. A. (Dhatup.xiii, 21 ; xxx, 2)to gain, acquire, obtain as a gift, possess, enjoy, RV.; AV. ; Br. ; SrS. ; to gain for another, procure, bestow, give, distribute, RV. ; (A.) to be successful, be granted or fulfilled

Lo! That is Sanskrit!

Shri Kailash,

Sanskrit is not as ancient a language as some of us would like to think. It has plenty of loan words or sounds from Sino-tibetan, Dravidian, and various other language groups. Since you mention Akkadian, you may like the book "The Language of the Harappans: From Akkadian to Sanskrit", by Malati J. Shendge. You can read portions of it on Google Books here:
http://books.google.com.sg/books?id...&resnum=1&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Regards.

 

[kailash]

namaste happy hindu,

suggest you google and read Language Concordance - Maya of Meso and South Americas and Bharath - India
Languages - Part I - Overview

regards

 

[sarang]

Maths Ramanujan was a devoted, religious, asthika tambram; he followed whatever acharams he could, including cooking his own food. He has left notes on several unsolved problems with solutions (!) and is still highly respected. I have just one thing in common with Ramanujan; I (and many more) also cooked my own food during my student days in UK . Blaming his early death to his anushtanam is a cruelest joke.

Let us move on to another myth: brahmins and education

 

[sarang]

The basic assumptions themselves are wrong; this is typical western idologist/marxist historian view and is being challenged widely. Aryans are migrants and asuras are harappans?

Flier from Malati's book:
Since the formulation of Indo-European theory in the 19th c., Sanskrit has been considered the language brought over by the Aryas. This raised the question after the discovery of the Harappan culture: what was the language of the Harappans? This book tries to answer this question.
"The Rigveda and the Vedic literature have also been considered the Aryan cultural heritage because in Rigveda clan name of the Aryas occurs. But the adversaries of the Aryas remained little known. Having shown that the Asuras and their allies fought with the Aryan migrants and that the Asuras were the Harappans, the author goes on to identify the language spoken and written by them. With ample language data, analysed with comparative method, the process of linguistic change from the languaged of Asuras viz Akkadian to Sanskrit is traced in detail. This work, along with her other works, completes the picture and generates a fresh understanding of the complex pattern of prehistory of Indian languages and Indian culture on rational and logical basis. It throws light on many unanswered questions." (jacket)

Shri Kailash,

Sanskrit is not as ancient a language as some of us would like to think. It has plenty of loan words or sounds from Sino-tibetan, Dravidian, and various other language groups. Since you mention Akkadian, you may like the book "The Language of the Harappans: From Akkadian to Sanskrit", by Malati J. Shendge. You can read portions of it on Google Books here:
The language of the Harappans: from ... - Malati J. Shendge - Google Books

Regards.

 

[kailash]

namaste happy hindu,

The issue with heritage and heritage documents is not so much what it means to any particular generation. Any current generation can take what it can understand and use it for or decide not to use it at all - but it is the duty of any current generation to pass it on INTACT WITHOUT "DOCTORING" to the next generations. With the hope that it will understand more than it could. And not deny the right of the distant yet unborn child its right to decide. Veda, Vedanga, Shastra, Ramayana, Mahabharath is Bharath India Heritage documents to be read by Indians, cherished, preserved and perpetuated to lives beyond our own lives.

 

[happyhindu]

namaste happy hindu,

suggest you google and read Language Concordance - Maya of Meso and South Americas and Bharath - India
Languages - Part I - Overview

regards

Namaste Kailash,

Thankyou for the suggestion. From google search i found this -- Language Concordance - Maya of Meso South America and Languages of India Bharath - Part I Overview (Abstract)

It is a very nice paper by Kedarnath Jonnalagadda analysing the concordance between the languages of south america and the india. But am not sure what's the connection between akkadian, sanskrit to this. Please clarify.

From my pov, it should not be surprising that later-day languages developed from older language groups. I enjoy Sanskrit very much including vedic chanting. Sanskrit arising from older-language groups is not at all an issue for me.

But i suppose some religious people will not like it that way. Perhaps religious dogma makes them beleive that Sanskrit is the oldest language of the world, created by gods, from which all world languages arose.

Thanks.

 

[happyhindu]

namaste happy hindu,

The issue with heritage and heritage documents is not so much what it means to any particular generation. Any current generation can take what it can understand and use it for or decide not to use it at all - but it is the duty of any current generation to pass it on INTACT WITHOUT "DOCTORING" to the next generations. With the hope that it will understand more than it could. And not deny the right of the distant yet unborn child its right to decide. Veda, Vedanga, Shastra, Ramayana, Mahabharath is Bharath India Heritage documents to be read by Indians, cherished, preserved and perpetuated to lives beyond our own lives.

I very much agree. Its a wrong idea to go doctoring history. IMO this sane advice would have applied more to some brahmins of the colonial period. Thanks.

 

[happyhindu]

The basic assumptions themselves are wrong; this is typical western idologist/marxist historian view and is being challenged widely. Aryans are migrants and asuras are harappans?

Challenged widely by whom? Do you have content to prove that the linguistic research by Malati Shengde is wrong?

 

[sarang]

Source or reference please!

I very much agree. Its a wrong idea to go doctoring history. IMO this sane advice would have applied more to some brahmins of the colonial period. Thanks.

 

[happyhindu]

Source or reference please!

Am yet to write on varna allocations in the Aarakshan thread (that is, varnas as allocated by some certain 'brahmins' to the rest). The content being explosive in nature, i have plans to put it all on a self-owned web space.

It will suffice to say for now that patels, rajputs, jats, etc have their jaati identity. They do not require a varna identity to survive. But 'brahmins' do. Hence 'brahmins' keep finding the need to allocate varnas to others. In order to bring everyone under their 4-varna scheme. Which some 'brahmins' do so even today.

To put it in short, brahmins built fake genologies for kings to bring them under the varna scheme, thus they did "doctoring of history".

During colonial rule, 'brahmins' allocated shudra varna to the avarna populations of southern india, although the avarna tribal-origin people did not serve anyone as bonded slaves.

Definitely i will write about the gross misuse of power (in the form of keepers of dharmashastras), on a website someday.

Am not inclined to blame all brahmins. People of various origins have become brahmins (will write about this also). There are also brahmins who are well wishers of the society. All am saying is that some certain 'brahmins' did things which have brought us to the present position today.

Those like Iyyarooran who claim history is an ass, law is an ass, history is interpreted by victors, etc (and those who think brahmins are victims of politics, etc), should take into consideration the machinations of some certain 'brahmins' of the colonial period also. Please wait and watch.

 

[kailash]

namaste happy hindu,

You write [From my pov, it should not be surprising that later-day languages developed from older language groups. I enjoy Sanskrit very much including vedic chanting. Sanskrit arising from older-language groups is not at all an issue for me. But i suppose some religious people will not like it that way. Perhaps religious dogma makes them beleive that Sanskrit is the oldest language of the world, created by gods, from which all world languages arose. ]

If it is dogma that I am being profiled for and that encourages study and research - So be it - Sanskrit is the oldest language of the world, created by gods, from which all world languages arose.

 

[kailash]

And having got the so called "Dravidian" Tamizh blood pressure up - I know it will not rise up too high because [samskRutam] and [samskRuti] is what I am talking about - AND not the "Sanskrit" that foreigners think it is. My [samskRutam] includes Tamizh and [tolkappiyAr] - my Rig [veda] includes [ANi] known by any Tamizh speaking person - AND [khIlA] by my Hindi speaking friends. What is called vedic chanting in English is sacred [vaidika mantra] to me - this has [Chandas] which the so called experts have least knowledge. And that Chandas is in India's blood. Written down words of [mantra] alone does not make music divine - singers do. I would like the parents of tomorrow to interview principals and teachers to see the qualifications and capabilities the teachers have... And take capitation fees from schools and colleges... [ nAn patta nUl ki nAle kAl] arguments are all ok when the [nUl] is seen by both person in the first place.

 

[Nara]

....If it is dogma that I am being profiled for and that encourages study and research - So be it - Sanskrit is the oldest language of the world, created by gods, from which all world languages arose.

kailash, what you want to believe is your natural right. However, I would like to present an exchange I had with one Prof. Hart a long time ago. I have edited the exchange for brevity.

BTW, Prof. Hart is a linguist and a Tamil scholar, presently teaching in UC Berkley. He has a Ph.D. in Sanskrit. Interestingly enough, he is married to a TB. Of course, for some he has an insurmountable defect, he is a western scholar.

From the e-mail I received from Prof. George Hart:

1. Neither Sanskrit nor Tamil are particularly old in the world scheme of things. Sanskrit is documented earlier than Tamil.

2. Sanskrit has borrowed quite as much from Dravidian as Dravidian has from Sanskrit. Tamil has borrowed more words from Sanskrit than Sanskrit has from Dravidian. It is a trivial thing for a language to borrow vocabulary. But when it uses another language's syntax to form the way it expresses things, and uses another language's phonology for its sounds, that is really profound influence. The fact is, Sanskrit HAS been influenced in this way by Dravidian. But none of the four Dravidian languages I have read has borrowed anything from Sanskrit syntax that I can identify. Much of the syntax of Sanskrit is Dravidian, and it has a large Dravidian vocabulary. Its system of phonetics is profoundly influenced by Dravidian -- Indo-Aryan is the only IE family with retroflexes.

3. Sanskrit also lacks some sounds that are available in Tamil. Tamil has short e and o, zh, R, n, and many permutations of stops -- e.g. k in akam -- which are not found in Skt. Actually both languages have about the same number of phonemes.

5. I can attest that the grammar of Sanskrit is no more elegant or perfect than any other IE language. It very much resembles Russian, Latin, and Greek (which I have also read) -- to which it is closely akin. To my mind, Tamil and the other Dravidian languages have much more elegant and logical structures. I love Sanskrit, but I would never claim its zillions of nit-picking rules make it somehow an epitome of order and perfect structure. Sorry, but it's just not.

7. Sanskrit, like Tamil, is a very rich language and tradition. It has an enormous variety of writings, some of which are of great quality (which is true of most rich languages). It has been a carrier of cultural tradition, and it is endlessly interesting. But why is it that it is mindlessly glorified for all the WRONG reasons?

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

..

- Sanskrit is the oldest language of the world, created by gods, from which all world languages arose.

this is a joke! right?

or are we talking about the proverbial ostrich like the pix attached below ?

Ostrich - where is the thinking head?

 

[kailash]

My dear dear nara,

It is the M word - Maya language of South and Meso America and its Concordance to Sanskri AND Bharth India languages that is the crux - and also Concordance of Cherokee of North America to Sanskri AND Bharth India languages besides Japanese and Aborogine of Australia.

tsu lasagi is cherokee word - meaning crocodile - I suggest my Tamil Brahmin Friends to analyse the word using the [dhAtupATha] and Sanskrit-English Dictionary.

[tsu nAmi]

tsu{* [tsu]3[ts'u] mfn. loathing, detesting, feeling disgust or repugnance #RV. #AV. #Kauś
[-namya] #MBh. ) to bend or bow ( either trans. or oftener intr ) to bow to, subject or submit, one's self ( with gen., dat. or acc. ) #RV. &c. &c.

meaning together "bad wave"

 

[kailash]

namaste Nara,

It is the M word - Concordance of Maya Language of South and Meso America to Sanskrit and Bharth India Languages that is the crux and eye opener -

It is also the Concordance of Cherokee of North America to Sanskrit and Bharth India Languages.

[tsu lasgi] Cherokee meaning alligator can be recoconstructed with pANiNiya [dhAtu] and sanskrit akShara meaning playing thing in water that is bad!

Japanese and Aborigine of Australia is no different.

tsunamI - Japanese word.

Sanskrit English Dictionary gives

[tsu]3[ts'u] mfn. loathing, detesting, feeling disgust or repugnance #RV. #AV. #Kauś

[nam]1[nam] cl. 1. P. [n'amati] ( #Pāṇ. Dhātup. xxiii, 12 )
[-namya] #MBh. ) to bend or bow ( either trans. or oftener intr ) to bow to, subject or submit, one's self ( with gen., dat. or acc. ) #RV. &c. &c.

put together is bad wave!

 

[kunjuppu]

why should we feel threatened by western commentaries on our epics? they are only applying the familiar western process of critical thinking and objectivity, and without the tinted glasses of faith to colour or sanitize what was written thousands of years ago.

for that matter, we have our own students of our scriptures who have given their own interpretations. here is a blog on the current debate about a.k.ramanujan's look at ramayana....

the traditions of hindu culture - is there indeed an one and only view of it

 

[prasad1]

why should we feel threatened by western commentaries on our epics? they are only applying the familiar western process of critical thinking and objectivity

K, I would not argue with you, but I have my doubt.

How do we know that they do not have a hidden agenda. MOTIVES MATTER.
Who is funding the research matters.

Just like what Max Muller wrote about Hinduism still clouds the understanding of the world. Max Muller was a fraud. He claimed to be a scholar.
After passing the High School, he never cleared any examination. So obviously he can not possess any academic degrees. Yet he calls himself a Master of Arts (MA).

So far Sanskrit, Max Mueller never came to India. He newer learned Sanskrit.

Max Muller Expose

 

[kunjuppu]

K, I would not argue with you, but I have my doubt.

How do we know that they do not have a hidden agenda. MOTIVES MATTER.
Who is funding the research matters.

Just like what Max Muller wrote about Hinduism still clouds the understanding of the world. Max Muller was a fraud. He claimed to be a scholar.
After passing the High School, he never cleared any examination. So obviously he can not possess any academic degrees. Yet he calls himself a Master of Arts (MA).

So far Sanskrit, Max Mueller never came to India. He newer learned Sanskrit.

Max Muller Expose

prasad,

i can find anything in the web to prove ANYTHING. or disprove equally anything.

here is another viewpoint of max mueller... and i have studied german in the max mueller bhavan of madras, and somewhat familiar with max, though through west german mouths of the 1960s .

max mueller