Distortions in Indian History

[sarang]

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Student population in schools and castewise distribution in 1822:
Ref: Dharampal


Madras Presidency 1822-25 (Collectors Reports)
Details of Schools & Colleges

Speaking Nos of Students Total Population
Language Schools in Schools (1823 estimates)

1. Oriya 255 2977 3,32,015

2. Telegu 3,454 38,801 10,94,460

3. Kannada 551 7,268 9,59,469

4. Malayalam 759 14,153 9,07,575

5. Tamil 6556 93,996 66,22,474

Total 11,575 1,57,195 99,09,993.



One Presidency of India had so many schools, were we that bad off!

Caste Division of Male school students

Speaking
Language Brahmins/ Vysee Soodra Other Muslims Total Male
Chettris Caste Students

1. Oriya 808 243 1001 886 27 2,965

2. Telegu. 14,014 7,676 10,076 4,755 1,639 38,160

3. Kannada 1,233 1,014 3,296 1,332 329 7,204

4.Malayalam 2,230 84 3,697 2,756 3,196 11,963

5.Tamil 11,926 4,442 57,873 13,196 5,453 92,890

 

[sarang]

Education: myth and reality. In tamil speaking areas 80% of the students were from sudra and castes belolw them. Brahmins were less than 20%.

India Must Rediscover Itself – excerpts from an interview with Dharampalji by Dr G.S.R. Krishnan, published in Deccan Herald, March 1983.

K: I think your forthcoming book on education in pre-British India has some interesting facts*.
D: Yes, For instance, a detailed survey of the surviving indigenous system of education was carried out in the Madras Presidency during 1922-1925. The survey indicated that 11,575 schools and 1,094 colleges were still then in existence in the Presidency and that the number of students were 1, 57,195 and 5,431 respectively. The much more surprising information this survey provided is with regard to the broader caste composition of the students in the schools. According to it those belonging to the sudras and castes below them formed 70 per cent to 80 per cent of the total students in Tamil-speaking areas; 62 per cent in the Oriya areas; 54 per cent in the Malayalam speaking areas; and 35 per cent to 40 per cent in Telugu-speaking areas. The Governor of Madras further estimated that over 25 per cent of the boys of the school-going age were attending these schools and that a substantial proportion were receiving education at home. In Madras about 26,000 boys were receiving their education at home and about 5,500 were attending schools. In Malabar, the number of those engaged in college level studies at home was about 1,600 as compared to a mere 75 in a college run by the family of the then impoverished Samudrin Raja. Again, in the district of Malabar the number of Muslim girls attending schools was surprisingly large 1,122 girls as compared to 3,196 Muslim boys. Incidentally, the number of Muslim girls attending school there 60 years, in 1884-1885, was just 700 or so. I have reproduced must of the documents in my book. A number of our notions about education in per-British Indian society have to be discarded in the light of these British reports and surveys.

 

[sarang]

Madras Presidency 1822-25 (Collectors Reports)
Details of Schools & Colleges
Caste Division of Male school students

Brahmins/ Vysee Soodra Other Muslims Total Male
Chettris Caste Students

Total 30,211 13,459 75,943 22,925 10,644 1,53,182

% of 20 9 50 15 6 100
total

Soodras & other caste are 65% of the total school going students and Brahmins only 20%. Compare that to 2004 and ask, why did this happen.

In fact Dharampal's books and articles on indian history must be specified for history students, at least as an optional subject.

The british systematically destroyed our native education system for furthering their interests and conversion. The schools were deerecognised and grants cut off.

There were more schools and students in india than in england; more indians were educated and literate than the english commoners.

 

[sarang]

What happened to the native, aboriginal canadians? How was their education handled by the canadian government in the last century?

Quote:

History of residential schools
From 1831 to 1996, more than 150,000 First Nations, Inuit and Metis children were taken from their communities and sent to one of the 130 federally-funded boarding schools administered by Catholic, United and Anglican Church authorities. For decades there was no choice: if families did not hand over their children, they were forcibly seized. The “aggressive assimilation” policies pursued by the government and the schools sought to stamp out aboriginal language, culture and spiritual beliefs in order to “kill the Indian in the child,” asDuncan Campbell Scott, Head of Indian Affairs, wrote in 1920.
The record of death and abuse in these schools is well documented. As early as 1909 Dr. Peter Bryce reported that mortality rates at residential schools in Western Canada ranged from 30 to 60 per cent. Over time, more than 12,000 individual allegations of physical and sexual abuse were brought to Canada’s courts.

More Canadians need to know about our “dark chapter” of residential schools | Troy Media

 

[sarang]

Ayodhya case and ICHR historians:

Not only were these "historians" the advisers of the Babri Masjid Action Committee, its advocates in the negotiations, they simultaneously issued all sorts of statements supporting the Babri Masjid Committee's case – which was the "case" they had themselves prepared! A well-practiced technique, if I may say so: they are from a school in which members have made each other famous by reviewing each others books!

Not just that. These very "historians" are cited as witnesses in the pleadings filed by the Sunni Waqf Board in the courts which are considering the Ayodhya matter!

Their deceitful role in Ayodhya -- which in the end harmed their clients more than anyone else -- was just symptomatic. For fifty years this bunch has been suppressing facts and inventing lies. How concerned they are about that objective of the ICHR -- to promote objective and rational research into events of our past. How does this square with the guidelines issued by their West Bengal Government in 1989 which Outlook itself quotes -- "Muslim rule should never attract any criticism. Destruction of temples by Muslim rulers and invaders should not be mentioned"? But their wholesale fabrications of the destruction of Buddhist vihars, about the non-existent "Aryan invasion" -- to question these is to be communal, chauvinist! It is this which has been the major crime of these "historians".

But these are not just partisan "historians". They are nepotists of the worst kind. I had documented several years ago the doings of some of them in regard to the appointments in the Aligarh Muslim University. Their doings in the ICHR have been true to pattern. How is it that over twenty five years persons from their school alone have been nominated to the ICHR? How come that Romila Thapar has been on the Council four times? Irfan Habib five times? Satish Chandra four times? S. Gopal three times?.... The same goes for the post of Chairman.

Not only are these "historians" partisan, not only are they nepotists, they are ones who have used State patronage to help each other in many, many ways. Let me give two examples, and make four specific proposals for the Ministry -- that "nodal Ministry", remember -- which has been their instrument in all these entrepreneurial ventures.

Ref: [h=1]FABRICATIONS ON THE WAY TO THE FUNERAL[/h]Publication: India Connect
Author: Arun Shourie
Date: June 26, 1998

 

[happyhindu]

Hello Sarang,

You have provided education details of Madras Presidency 1822-25; which Dharampal says is pre-British India.

However in my view, Dharampal is merely obfucating.

British Raj as the formal ruling government was established in 1858, however the British occupation of India dates much before that.

The template on the right in this page can help for a rough sketch of various colonial occupation periods - Madras Presidency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brahmins and princely families received education in pre-colonial india. Not the comman man (everyone was tied down to this occupation by birth).

Let us have evidence that the comman man was provided education in dharmashastra-following kingdoms. This will absolve the dharmashastra-following groups from preventing education to masses.

Btw, even in the Itihaasas, the princely families went to gurus or to a gurukkul to get education, not the comman man.

Do let us know, if dharmashastra-following kingdoms had the concept of a "school for all" where various subjects are taught to anyone irrespective of caste ??

 

[sarang]

You have to find proof to validate your view that education - both in literacy, in ethics and in skills was not provided by the kings; otherwise you prove nothing. Do you agree with the education related reports created by the british.

Apart from brahmins, people of other varnas, buddhists, jains and naastikas learnt samskrit, the local language and were avid learneers of all sastrs - both religious and secular.

Hello Sarang,

You have provided education details of Madras Presidency 1822-25; which Dharampal says is pre-British India.

However in my view, Dharampal is merely obfucating.

British Raj as the formal ruling government was established in 1858, however the British occupation of India dates much before that.

The template on the right in this page can help for a rough sketch of various colonial occupation periods - Madras Presidency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Brahmins and princely families received education in pre-colonial india. Not the comman man (everyone was tied down to this occupation by birth).

Let us have evidence that the comman man was provided education in dharmashastra-following kingdoms. This will absolve the dharmashastra-following groups from preventing education to masses.

Btw, even in the Itihaasas, the princely families went to gurus or to a gurukkul to get education, not the comman man.

Do let us know, if dharmashastra-following kingdoms had the concept of a "school for all" where various subjects are taught to anyone irrespective of caste ??

 

[sarang]

Who killed buddhism in india? Guess who has written the following piece. Answer at the end.


"There can be no doubt that the fall of Buddhism in India was due to the invasions of the Musalmans," writes the author. "Islam came out as the enemy of the 'But'. The word 'But,' as everybody knows, is an Arabic word and means an idol. Not many people, however, know that the derivation of the word 'But' is the Arabic corruption of Buddha. Thus the origin of the word indicates that in the Moslem mind idol worship had come to be identified with the Religion of the Buddha. To the Muslims, they were one and the same thing. The mission to break the idols thus became the mission to destroy Buddhism. Islam destroyed Buddhism not only in India but wherever it went. Before Islam came into being Buddhism was the religion of Bactria, Parthia, Afghanistan, Gandhar and Chinese Turkestan, as it was of the whole of Asia...."

A communal historian of the RSS-school? But Islam struck at Hinduism also. How is it that it was able to fell Buddhism in India but not Hinduism? Hinduism had State-patronage, says the author. The Buddhists were so persecuted by the "Brahmanic rulers", he writes, that, when Islam came, they converted to Islam: this welled the ranks of Muslims but in the same stroke drained those of Buddhism. But the far more important cause was that while the Muslim invaders butchered both -- Brahmins as well as Buddhist monks -- the nature of the priesthood in the case of the two religions was different -- "and the difference is so great that it contains the whole reason why Brahmanism survived the attack of Islam and why Buddhism did not."

For the Hindus, every Brahmin was a potential priest. No ordination was mandated. Neither anything else. Every household carried on rituals -- oblations, recitation of particular mantras, pilgrimages, each Brahmin family made memorizing some Veda its very purpose.... By contrast, Buddhism had instituted ordination, particular training etc. for its priestly class. Thus, when the invaders massacred Brahmins, Hinduism continued. But when they massacred the Buddhist monks, the religion itself was killed.

Describing the massacres of the latter and the destruction of their vihars, universities, places of worship, the author writes, "The Musalman invaders sacked the Buddhist Universities of Nalanda, Vikramshila, Jagaddala, Odantapuri to name only a few. They raised to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands to Nepal, Tibet and other places outside India. A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders. How the Buddhist priesthood perished by the sword of the Muslim invaders has been recorded by the Muslim historians themselves. Summarizing the evidence relating to the slaughter of the Buddhist Monks perpetrated by the Musalman General in the course of his invasion of Bihar in 1197 AD, Mr. Vincent Smith says, "....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the 'shaven headed Brahmans', that is to say the Buddhist monks, was so thoroughly completed, that when the victor sought for someone capable of explaining the contents of the books in the libraries of the monasteries, not a living man could be found who was able to read them. 'It was discovered,' we are told, 'that the whole of that fortress and city was a college, and in the Hindi tongue they call a college Bihar.' "Such was the slaughter of the Buddhist priesthood perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. The axe was struck at the very root. For by killing the Buddhist priesthood, Islam killed Buddhism. This was the greatest disaster that befell the religion of the Buddha in India...."

The writer? B. R. Ambedkar.

[h=1]Title: TO UNDO THE SCANDAL, UNDO THE CONTROL[/h]Author: Arun Shourie
Publication: India Connect
Date: July 24, 1998

 

[happyhindu]

You have to find proof to validate your view that education - both in literacy, in ethics and in skills was not provided by the kings; otherwise you prove nothing.

I find no evidence that dharmashastra-following kingdoms offered literacy to commoners. Since you and dharampal allege that education was provided to everyone in pre-british india, the onus is on you to prove such a claim.

Do you agree with the education related reports created by the british.

Which reports?

Apart from brahmins, people of other varnas, buddhists, jains and naastikas learnt samskrit, the local language and were avid learneers of all sastrs - both religious and secular.

I am not speaking of Buddhists and Jains. I am speaking about dharmashastra-following kingdoms, that is, those who followed the hindu brahmanical social organisation model of varna system.

Please provide evidence that in dharmashastra-following kingdoms, education or literacy was provided for all.

Since we are speaking of 'Madras Presidency' or South-India, you could start with the Cholas or any other kingdom please...

 

[sarang]

You are the one obfuscating the issues. Stick to the topic instead of repeating your past writings which are your opinions.

If you do not agree you have to provide the proof. You can find enough support in the annals of ICHR which also has a lot to answer for.

 

[Nara]

Who killed buddhism in india? Guess who has written the following piece. Answer at the end.



The writer? B. R. Ambedkar.

[h=1]Title: TO UNDO THE SCANDAL, UNDO THE CONTROL[/h]Author: Arun Shourie
Publication: India Connect
Date: July 24, 1998

dear sarang, you are mixing Arun Shourie's comments with that of Babasaheb Ambedkar. For the readers to clearly understand who is saying what you need to format your post properly, will you please?

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

Thanks for the unwanted advice. The quote is from ambedkar and the reference is arun shourie's book.
The quote below is from swami vivekananda; not arun shourie!

Quote:

"In very ancient times this Turkish race repeatedly conquered the western provinces of India and founded extensive kingdoms. They were Buddhists, or would turn Buddhists after occupying Indian territory. In the ancient history of Kashmir there is mention of these famous Turkish emperors -- Hushka, Yushka, and Kanishka. It was this Kanishka who founded the Northern School of Buddhism called Mahayana. Long after, the majority of them took to Mohammedanism and completely devastated the chief Buddhistic seats of Central Asia such as Kandhar and Kabul. Before their conversion to Mohammedanism they used to imbibe the learning and culture of the countries they conquered, and by assimilating the culture of other countries would try to propagate civilization. But ever since they became Mohammedans, they have only the instinct of war left in them; they have not got the least vestige of learning and culture; on the contrary, the countries that come under their sway gradually have their civilization extinguished. In many places of modern Afghanistan and Kandhar etc., there yet exist wonderful Stupas, monasteries, temples and gigantic statues built by their Buddhist ancestors. As a result of Turkish admixture and their conversion to Mohammedanism, those temples etc. are almost in ruins, and the present Afghans and allied races have grown so uncivilized and illiterate that, far from imitating those ancient works of architecture, they believe them to be the creation of super-natural spirits like the Jinn etc....".

The author? The very one the secularists tried to appropriate three-four years ago -- Swami Vivekananda.

[h=1]Title: TO UNDO THE SCANDAL, UNDO THE CONTROL[/h]Author: Arun Shourie
Publication: India Connect
Date: July 24, 1998

dear sarang, you are mixing Arun Shourie's comments with that of Babasaheb Ambedkar. For the readers to clearly understand who is saying what you need to format your post properly, will you please?

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Thanks for the unwanted advice. The quote is from ambedkar and the reference is arun shourie's book.
The quote below is from swami vivekananda; not arun shourie!

my dear brother sarang, it was only a request, not advice. But, I am still not clear what in your post was a quote from Babasaheb Ambedkar. Will you please highlight that for me?

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

Subject: Who killed buddhism?

But today the fashion is to ascribe the extinction of Buddhism to the persecution of Buddhists by Hindus, to the destruction of their temples by the Hindus. One point is that the Marxist historians who have been perpetrating this falsehood have not been able to produce even an iota of evidence to substantiate the concoction.

 

[Nara]

Subject: Who killed buddhism?

But today the fashion is to ascribe the extinction of Buddhism to the persecution of Buddhists by Hindus, to the destruction of their temples by the Hindus. One point is that the Marxist historians who have been perpetrating this falsehood have not been able to produce even an iota of evidence to substantiate the concoction.

Dear brother, are you saying this is what Ambedkar said? If so, could you please give me the citation? If not, would you please let me know why you mentioned Ambedkar in that earlier post? I am really confused now!!!

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

happy,

re your post #109,

i see a lot of anger in sarang's posts, without a balance of views. he appears to be angry, that india was invaded by muslims and christians. also the rise of buddhism and jainism, to thward brahminical vedism.

none of the questions that you ask him, will sway him towards a balanced review.

it is not that i would ask anyone to feel bad at bad turns of history. but all these happened hundreds of years ago, and some even couple of thousand. what is the use of churning out anger out of those situations.

it is best, i think, many a times, while being aware of the past, work the present for a better future. today's world is a flat multicultural world, with each of us, here at different and far away cardinal points. it is better, for folks like sarang, so intelligent, to come up with visions of a prosperous india, and forge a game plan, than wasting his time and feelings over incidents long gone, and which though may reflect in some of our mores, are not an active impediment to our rejecting it or to our further progress.

my personal solution to folks like sarang or jamadagneya, let them be. only jamadagneya was toxic here. sarang, i think, will continue post falsities which he believes is true. and will not address the issue of providing convincing source or proof, to support many a viewpoint of his.

so, dear happy, dont waste your time on this.

what i do not understand is the anger. why anger?

 

[Yamaka]

"it is best, i think, many a times, while being aware of the past, work the present for a better future. today's world is a flat multicultural world, with each of us, here at different and far away cardinal points. it is better, for folks like sarang, so intelligent, to come up with visions of a prosperous india, and forge a game plan, than wasting his time and feelings over incidents long gone, and which though may reflect in some of our mores, are not an active impediment to our rejecting it or to our further progress." K in post 116

Dear K:

Amen..to what you said above.

Our past has been very bad (or even pathetic), because knowingly or unknowingly we were WEAKER than the invading armies since 900 AD:

Turks, Afghans, Persians, Portugese, Dutch, French, English etc all came in droves, subjugated us and plundered us for a long long time. Our civilization was raped repeatedly.

Ours is a wounded civilization. I agree fully with you that it's all in the past. But what did we learn from this horrendous past?

Why were we WEAKER than others? Is the same thing happening now?

I am afraid still we are WEAKER than our neighbors like China! Why?

1. We have a written down glorious Constitution - most of us don't know what it means!

2. We have a Representative Parliamentary Democracy - but the Parliament is in a mess; the political Opposition never allows it to function - it's like US Congress, there is gridlock every Session.

3. There are about one billion people earning less than Rs.100 (U$ 2) per day, as per the World Bank Report. Many of the elites don't realize this basic fact: for them such thing is beyond their concern or worry. Meaning forget about it, just worry about our lives: India is divided painfully as the most Have Nots and the small minority Haves.

4. Corruption is endemic and is present in all section of the Society from the Supreme Court to the taluk peon, from the Corporate CEO to the building watchman, from NGOs to many voters at the poll booth.

All this tells me that WE ARE still very WEAK or WEAKER than others, and most of us don't realize it..

History is still repeating..

What's the Solution?

I want our friends in India (Shiv, Raju, Guru, Praveen, Sarong, Subbudu Sir and others) articulate SOLUTIONS for our malady that's persistent for too long a time - about dozen centuries now.

For, many of us (K, Y, N, and others) ran away from our land of birth for a greener pasture long time ago!

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear Y,

i have found that repeated calls for solutions, especially from those who are in india, and who have a overwhelming feeling of grievance that history has done them wrong, has not been answered. these folks are interested in only churning the past for self fulfilling misery of the presence, for themselves, and probably, for their loved ones. one shudders at the thought of living in the same household or sharing a bed with folks of such mindsets.

i used to have a friend here. always miserable. about usa, where he was a distinction scholar at univ of mass. his crib - some bostonians landladies were racist and would not rent him a room. he gripe at the usa? because he was denied clearance for a toop sensistive job because he was a foreigner.

he came to canada, and once again griped against the society, his imagined slights by his boss, and what not. the poor wife, was fed up. it appears that he was the eldest son and had a deep feeling of guilt for having abandoned his aged parents. finally he packed his bags and went back to india. a very relieved wife, who must have been a rare dil, who looked forward to the company of the fil/mil, just so that the husband's focus will be distracted from her.

the happy ending is, that once he landed in bangalore, this man, dad, mom and an uncle, played bridge from morn till night. the wife, happy again, took a job so that she could be outside of the house. the two sons are back in canada.

sometimes, when i see an anger espoused in one form, i suspect, there is something else that is bothering them. who knows?

back to something constructive - i personally feel, if each of us, adopt just one child and ensure that she/he gets a good education, we would be doing wonders for the country. just person to person, no middle men or organizational costs. would that be so difficult, for anyone? any day better than beating the breast about long past battles.

 

[happyhindu]

so, dear happy, dont waste your time on this.

No worries sir, am aware sarang has no answer to the question raised. Atleast so far i found not a single dharmashastra-following kingdom offering education to commoners. Dharampal, to me, is mere hot gas, trying to pass off stuff to the less-informed in quite a few areas. So the guys who accept everything Dharampal said as the true picture, find themselves in a tight spot without plausible answers.

what i do not understand is the anger. why anger?

Its natural i suppose....in the law of the jungle dog eats dog, man eats man. One man's food remains another man's poison. Religious ideology remains a killer. Christians want jews to kill off muslims for them, so that they can inturn kill the jews and occupy israel for the great christdom. Our hindutva proponets are no less, they want indians to oppose secularism, bring back varna dharma, get rid of non-hindus and create the great hindudom. In this medley, anger is bound to arise over differing views.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

"it is best, i think, many a times, while being aware of the past, work the present for a better future. today's world is a flat multicultural world, with each of us, here at different and far away cardinal points. it is better, for folks like sarang, so intelligent, to come up with visions of a prosperous india, and forge a game plan, than wasting his time and feelings over incidents long gone, and which though may reflect in some of our mores, are not an active impediment to our rejecting it or to our further progress." K in post 116

Dear K:

Amen..to what you said above.

Our past has been very bad (or even pathetic), because knowingly or unknowingly we were WEAKER than the invading armies since 900 AD:

Turks, Afghans, Persians, Portugese, Dutch, French, English etc all came in droves, subjugated us and plundered us for a long long time. Our civilization was raped repeatedly.

Ours is a wounded civilization. I agree fully with you that it's all in the past. But what did we learn from this horrendous past?

Why were we WEAKER than others? Is the same thing happening now?

I am afraid still we are WEAKER than our neighbors like China! Why?

1. We have a written down glorious Constitution - most of us don't know what it means!

2. We have a Representative Parliamentary Democracy - but the Parliament is in a mess; the political Opposition never allows it to function - it's like US Congress, there is gridlock every Session.

3. There are about one billion people earning less than Rs.100 (U$ 2) per day, as per the World Bank Report. Many of the elites don't realize this basic fact: for them such thing is beyond their concern or worry. Meaning forget about it, just worry about our lives: India is divided painfully as the most Have Nots and the small minority Haves.

4. Corruption is endemic and is present in all section of the Society from the Supreme Court to the taluk peon, from the Corporate CEO to the building watchman, from NGOs to many voters at the poll booth.

All this tells me that WE ARE still very WEAK or WEAKER than others, and most of us don't realize it..

History is still repeating..

What's the Solution?

I want our friends in India (Shiv, Raju, Guru, Praveen, Sarong, Subbudu Sir and others) articulate SOLUTIONS for our malady that's persistent for too long a time - about dozen centuries now.

For, many of us (K, Y, N, and others) ran away from our land of birth for a greener pasture long time ago!

Cheers.

Y,

But to some people, like Shri sarang, ours was and is still, the most glorious, majestic and powerful country in this world where the God Absolute comes down whenever necessary, donning different costumes - apt for the mission - and rescues this pet country of His from all spiritual damages! (Mind you, the word is spiritual; islam and all the others who invaded, looted and ravaged and ruled this country, have had to leave - why? because of our spritual power! They will find their nemesis also in due course (good if it happens during sarang's lifetime) and then the whole world and all humanity will once again rejoice in the eternal happiness and spiritual peace of Hinduism. (BJP/VHP/RSS et all will rule the world!) And history would have been "straightened" too

 

[suraju06]

Reference Kunjuppu's post #116:

it is not that i would ask anyone to feel bad at bad turns of history. but all these happened hundreds of years ago, and some even couple of thousand. what is the use of churning out anger out of those situations.

I should remember to quote this gem when some one talks eloquently about brahminism, brahmin's atrocities, brahmin conspiracy etc., or when some one eulogises that great fraud EVR.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Reference Sangom's post #120:

But to some people, like Shri sarang, ours was and is still, the most glorious, majestic and powerful country in this world where the God Absolute comes down whenever necessary, donning different costumes - apt for the mission - and rescues this pet country of His from all spiritual damages! (Mind you, the word is spiritual; islam and all the others who invaded, looted and ravaged and ruled this country, have had to leave - why? because of our spritual power! They will find their nemesis also in due course (good if it happens during sarang's lifetime) and then the whole world and all humanity will once again rejoice in the eternal happiness and spiritual peace of Hinduism. (BJP/VHP/RSS et all will rule the world!) And history would have been "straightened" too

And to some others, ours was and is the most miserable,horrible,pathetic and weak country/civilization in the world where people worship a million gods, where people worship idols which 'represent' sexual act and sexual organs, where people believe in Avatars of God unlike their enlightened counter parts in other parts of the world eagerly waiting for the coming of the 'good shepherd', where people believe in the paapa and punya unlike the great people elsewhere who believe in the day of judgment (after your death you have to wait indefinitely in the purgatory untill that golden day)or those who believe in getting rewards in the n-th heaven which includes frolicking with and enjoying the hundreds of virgins(note- only virgins with their hymen in tact and not the 'experienced' ones) provided by God Himself.And what more, for these 'some others', the fact that this is the only civilization which survived the swords of powerful subjugators/marauding scoundrels and survived the onslaught for hundreds of years, is some thing to be mocked at and ridiculed. If any one says that there is something in this civilization which is unique, which deserves emulation these 'some others' will say that they need only to be 'straightened'.

Cheers.

 

[sarang]

Some clips from the speech delivered by subramanyan swami in bangalore on 20 october 2011. He said a lot about corruption, 2G, money received as bribes by the politicians, but only those observations that are relevant to this thread are given below.

1. He went back to the history of India, 500 years ago...where we were called as the most honest country...People like Vasco Da Gama, Mark Twain who wrote that they have never seen more honest people than Indian Hindus...(HUGE & proud applause by the crowd)...people who never used to lock their homes while going on a vacation ...He said that India is now ranked 90th when it comes to honesty ...New Zealand holds the 1st rank ....I did not note the rankings of US & China properly ..I may be wrong ..but yeah...I think he said that they were somewhere around 19 & 78 respectively..

2. He went back to 1947 ...when India was not so corrupt...He said that it was the adoption of the Soviet Model, which was the biggest disaster ..and is responsible for all the corruption which is happening .

3. He then went on to explain the effect of corruption on national security ...because most ministers are blackmailed by terrorists in Pakistan...& how Chidambaram allowed selling of licenses for blacklisted companies ..(one of which was a front organization for the ISI )...He said that the court has reserved its orders ...to cancel all the licenses given by Chidambaram & Raja.

4. He explained the mutually exclusive classification of people by ancient Hindus - Knowledge, Weapons, Wealth, Land ....

"Raavan was a Brahmin...Karunanidhi didn't know this ...that's why he celebrated Ravan-lila ...I explained the facts to him..he stopped supporting Raavan ...but continued to abuse Rama ...when I challenged the Sethusamudram project by asking if Rama is an engineer ..which engineering college did he study etc.." ..he continued - "The next day he fell sick ...he was admitted to Ramachandra Medical Hospital".
"AT LEAST RAMA HAD AN MBBS DEGREE !!!"

5. He also talked about how Al-Qaeda has stated that "India is an incomplete chapter in Islamic history"..how they've Islamified Egypt & many other places ..but India still has A LOT of Hindus even after 800 years of muslim rule & 200 years of Christian rule.

6. He talked about the structure of history text books - 1 chapter for every mughal ...but only 1 paragraph on the Vijayanagar empire ??!!! With the mention that the history books have to be modified ...he concluded his talk.

Bharatkalyan97: A tribute to Dr. Swamy, record of a youth on Swami's talk in Bangalore

 

[sarang]

What anger? Where is anger. We are only talking history, trying to understand a version of history which is hidden from the public and not taught to school students and jealously kept out by ICHR, NCERT etc. Even communal riots are not reported correctly. In a recent interview, narendra modi requested the young interviewer to do him and the nation a favour - he gave a list of five major riots (4 during congress rule and 1 during bjp rule) and asked him to prepare a comparison report - cause, damage to life and property, action taken during and after the riots etc.. The reporter beat a hasty retreat and and started repeating the same questions.

Hindus are ready to face truth; are the rest ready?

Cool down take a siesta with a soothing drink. Don't start personal accusations!

happy,

re your post #109,

i see a lot of anger in sarang's posts, without a balance of views. he appears to be angry, that india was invaded by muslims and christians. also the rise of buddhism and jainism, to thward brahminical vedism.

none of the questions that you ask him, will sway him towards a balanced review.

it is not that i would ask anyone to feel bad at bad turns of history. but all these happened hundreds of years ago, and some even couple of thousand. what is the use of churning out anger out of those situations.

it is best, i think, many a times, while being aware of the past, work the present for a better future. today's world is a flat multicultural world, with each of us, here at different and far away cardinal points. it is better, for folks like sarang, so intelligent, to come up with visions of a prosperous india, and forge a game plan, than wasting his time and feelings over incidents long gone, and which though may reflect in some of our mores, are not an active impediment to our rejecting it or to our further progress.

my personal solution to folks like sarang or jamadagneya, let them be. only jamadagneya was toxic here. sarang, i think, will continue post falsities which he believes is true. and will not address the issue of providing convincing source or proof, to support many a viewpoint of his.

so, dear happy, dont waste your time on this.

what i do not understand is the anger. why anger?

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sarang,

It is true that when I studied Indian history (as different from 'British History' - a misnomer - by which the British rule over India was being taught in those days, 1950's, in schools in Travancore) each Mughal had a separate chapter. Though I had no ideas about distortions in history or any such thing at that age, I completely disliked history and scored pass marks with great difficulty. One day I was just remarking why we should study about all these Mughals and was it not better to study Travancore history in more detail than what we had been taught in our primary classes in an abridged form. Our history teacher (one Shri Nilakanta Iyer) came overhearing and told the class that we were learning about history of India and in this the Mughals had a role because they had brought larger areas of India under their rule, as compared to any others and the history of rule by the British, who also ruled the complete India - even larger than any Mughal empire - is being taught as a separate subject.

There were possibly no ICHR, NCERT, etc., in those days, I believe. But the reason my teacher gave sounded logical to me then, and looks so even today.

Vijayanagar empire, Shivaji's empire, etc., were limited in area when compared to the Mughal and British empires in India. But we had a long treatment of Maurya dynasty and especially Ashoka's rule in our history lessons.

It is quite possible that the history taught today is not in accordance with the views of Dharam Pal and some others. But it has the approval of the government and even Dharam Pal did not try to petition the Supreme Court to order revision of Indian history according to his version. The funny thing is Dharam Pal's entire family, including his wife, thought it better to emigrate and settle down in UK, leaving him and his vision of history in the Gandhi Asramam.

When you announce "Hindus are ready to face truth; are the rest ready?", it is loud and clear that you want a history eulogizing all that is Hindu as great, and all the rest, not so sublime. But, as the saying goes, history is written by the victors, not by the vanquished; when did hindus emerge victorious last in any battle, including Vijayanagara against the sultanates in Talikotta?