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Distortions in Indian History

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why should we feel threatened by western commentaries on our epics?
K, there is a tendency to think there was some sort of uniformity of religious thought that was brutally suppressed by the Muslim invaders and later grossly misrepresented by the British. There is lot the Muslim invaders and the British have to answer for, but, the idea of an idyllic India living in peaceful uniformity is just a myth. The past was characterized by a diversity and conflict all along. (Happy may correct me if I am wrong).

In the South we see a whole host of religious doctrines vying for converts up until the Pallava dynasty. We get a glimpse of this in the concluding chapters of Manimekalai. Entering Kanchi Manimekalai encounters all kinds of religious doctrine. Of course she chooses to enter a Buddha Vihara and becomes a Bikshini, no surpirse as the author of the epic was a Buddhist.

Even in Vaalmiki Ramayanam we see a telling episode in which Jabala Maharishi advocates Charvaka to Rama. He of course gets shot down with severe warning from Lord Rama and jabala backs down feigning he was only kidding.

The near uniform Hinduism we see today, influenced greatly by Brahminism, is a far cry from the market place of ideas that was prevalent. It is clear that people were not afraid of ideas. Criticism of ideas was not immediately seen as offensive and hurting the sentiments. But now, everything is getting beaten down to conform to some form of uniformity, we all belong to Hindutva family, even if you are not a Hindu. All divergent views are seen as offensive, hurtful, western influenced, left-wing biased, Marxist, based on hidden nefarious agenda, etc. etc.

After nearly 65 years after independence we are still finding fault with Europeans for distorting our history. The Hindutva crowd still finds fault with Lord McCauley for the education system. For Lord McCauley to have any effect, we need to get the students to think first, a notion that is squarely rejected in favor of a job in an MNC, which I understand and sympathize, but the fact remains Lord McCauley's vision, if there was one, was a huge failure. The education system we now have in India is one that is nothing more than a network of trade schools.

I like to see us Indians grow a pair, stand up, take a critical look at our past, reject all that is repressive, adopt all that is progressive, forge a better tomorrow. Some of us who are older folks must stand with and encourage our youngsters to think along these lines, instead of adopting a knee jerk reaction, like anything seen as negative by the Hindutva brigade is European conspiracy.

Cheers!
 
If one were to go by Internet research - The greatest Interest in study of Sanskrit and Hindu sacred literature is most peculiarly - not in India !!! 95% of web sites are located overseas! Utah, the home of Mormon Church has Sanskrit lovers - with neo copyrighted Sanskrit Documents - available bin das. The reason for the love of Sanskrit is two fold - it may be because of its (1) inherent greatness (2) It is the best tool to understand and learn the great languages of Maya of the South and meso America.

I have permission from the author to quote this to the "Brahmin group" after admonition to me that any group that calls itself a Tamil or Another Brahmin Group is an antithesis to itself and the wisdom of ancient Hindus - he quotes a sanskrit shloka - which translated is "The elephant having [manda buddhi], the snake having [ati nidra] and the brahmin having [an aika matyam] is a blessing to the three worlds" . The only time brahmins appear in groups are when there is a feast and celebration or funerals.

Concordance of Maya Language of South and Meso America to [sanskrit] and Bharth India Languages

http://www.scribd.com/doc/17451732/...ges-of-India-Bharath-Part-I-Overview-Abstract

"Debates are galore on Aryan invasions, Veda, Indo European, Proto Sanskrit and
Dravidian languages of the sub continent. Maya language linkage with Veda, Sanskrit,
and Dravidian languages could be eye openers. This may well imply AIT, Aryan
Invasion Theories and other divisive theories needing reconsideration. Or proponents of
divisive theories needing to come up with implausible Aryan Invasion Theory for the
Americas too. But, that would need earlier Dravidian Invasions from the sub continent
to the Americas or vice versa."

Surya Siddhanta - Overview [sUrya siddhAnta] is one of the earliest [siddhAntas] in archeo astronomy of Hindus. Sri. Bapu Deva Shastri translated this in 1861. In less than 100 pages itdescribes the archeo astronomy theories, principles and methods! The contents of this book along with note is seen at same web site that has Concordance of Maya Language of South and Meso America to [sanskrit]

The most significant features of the document are

1. The acknowledgement that an [asura] called [maya] was first imparted the knowledge of "astronomy.
2. The [asura] were residents of the "nether world" which is opposite side the world of the [deva].
3. There are mentions of northern and southern hemispheres and that there is no up and down for the globe.

The ancient civilizations of the world can generically classified as the Northern or the known civilizations of which Hindu and India is a part and the Southern Civilizations which were generally unknown to the north because they were on the opposite side of the globe. And the globe is a billion years old!

The purANas are replete with the greatness of the Asuras.

History tells us that Americas were discovered recently. And in the South and Meso America were great ancient civilizations of the Maya. Geographically the Hindu civilization and India are more or less diametrically opposite sides of the globe.Comparative study of the two well known ancient civilizations however practically non existent. Why.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/70562403/Surya-Siddhanta-Overview©-2011



===
Part 1 - Concordance of Maya and Sanskrit Languages in context of calendars.



  1. Studies Maya words used in context of Maya Calendars.
  2. Looks up similar sounding whole words in Sanskrit with meanings having a relevance for the subject of calendars.
  3. And when not available, looks up [dhAtu] and [akShara]. These are elemental building blocks for words in Sanskrit. These have a well documented definite range of meanings.\
  4. The above process, in effect, is building up words_(Maya) with known meaning with elements of Sanskrit and it conveys a similar meaning as the original Maya word!
  5. This process is temporarily called “reconstruction” until a better word can be found that describes the process in a better way.
  6. _(Maya) is suffix used for “reconstructed” words to different them from the original Maya words.


That a Mayan word, when analyzed using Sanskrit can help understanding the Mayan word opens out avenues to explore primal relationship and better translations of distant languages. Conversely, a thorough knowledge of Mayan languages can help understanding Sanskrit. And understanding it better!


Summary of findings and possibilities for Part 1 - Concordance of Maya and Sanskrit Languages in context of calendars.



  1. [dhAtu] and [akShara] of Sanskrit can be very important primal keys to understanding distant languages.
  2. From Sanskrit [dhAtu] and [akShara] viewpoint
    1. Mayan languages are variants of Sanskrit
    2. They use precise combinations of [dhAtu] and [akShara] in a simple and brilliant way to express complex concepts.
  3. Much needs to be known on the elements of the original Maya language and its grammar. For a variety of, hopefully historic, reasons these are not documented as comprehensively as is in Sanskrit.
  4. A comprehensive re-look at the Mayan languages is needed to enumerate [dhatu] like elements in the language.
  5. Avenues open out for using [dhAtu] and [akShara] like tokens from Sanskrit AND [dhatu] like elements from Mayan languages to communicate complex concepts in man-machine and machine aided communications.
===
 
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nara,

i was very lucky to have a liberal humanistic syllabus in my anglo indian high school curriculum.

assuredly, we had trigonometry, algebra, geometry, math, general science, but we had a healthy dose of humanities - separate poetry, text and drama classes. we studied shakespeare in his origiinals and a fair dose of humanist english literature -shaw, lamb, tagore, nehru and sir william slim (who defeated the japanese in burma - his analysis of bravery i still remember - 'all races are brave, we english are brave just a little longer, to make the difference in a warfield'...

today's education both here in canada and india, is catering towards jobs - trade schools whether it be of the wood or the money kind.

we lose the best and brightest to wall street or (worse) the armed forces.

sad to say, m.m.joshi, during his brief tenure as education minister of india, rewrote entire cbsc and hsc syllabus and history to reflect RSS ideology. even more misfortunate, the guys who succeeded him, are just bent on undoing joshi's laws, and not on encouraging or cultivating creative thought.

so, i think, ultimately, even though it caters to the lowest common denominator, MK's samacheer kalvi thittam, is probably more acceptable to me than many of the other schools of education of india. atleast MK obeises the ancients ande includes them - tholkappiam, sekkizhar and manimekalai. entirely tamil centric though. so be it.

thathaasthu!!
 
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Equally it would be wrong to view anything divergent from established view as a conspiracy by the so-called hindutva brigade! It would be wrong to deem everything coming from the hindutva brigade as a distortion.

For the brabas, history is sacred - i.e. their version of history is sacred. Any view contradicting their version of history is anathema to them. It is unacceptable so they blame it on hindutva, lest the hatred castle that they have carefully built will collapse like a house of cards!
 
கால பைரவன்;105473 said:
Equally it would be wrong to view anything divergent from established view as a conspiracy by the so-called hindutva brigade! It would be wrong to deem everything coming from the hindutva brigade as a distortion.

For the brabas, history is sacred - i.e. their version of history is sacred. Any view contradicting their version of history is anathema to them. It is unacceptable so they blame it on hindutva, lest the hatred castle that they have carefully built will collapse like a house of cards!

If a Non-Hindutva breathing reasonable person gives an alternate version of the History, I am willing to listen to him/her, for sure.

I won't accept views like, "Oh, this is the History written by Foreigners, the West or the like"... because it does not matter who wrote the History.. what matters to me is whether this is written by a non-partisan academic.

Let a non-partisan academic tell me the alternate version of the Indian History etc. etc.

Wait & watch.
 
If it is dogma that I am being profiled for and that encourages study and research - So be it - Sanskrit is the oldest language of the world, created by gods, from which all world languages arose.
Sorry to disappoint but no one is profiling you for dogma. Neither do folks like yourself encourage study and research in anyway. Research does not depend on dogma-beleivers or any such like.

Research goes on irrespective of whether dogma-believers exist or not. The past deserves to be understood correctly, without the need to please anyone.

Just as goverments fund medical research, similarly governments fund institutions to conduct academic research in linguistics, archeology, etc.

Dogma-believers are free to label anyone as marxist, leftist, or demonise the researchers (western or otherwise), whenever they encounter research that displeases them.

Dogma-beleivers are also free to make outta-the-world claims that Sanskrit was created by gods, and that all world languages descended from Sanskrit. Such claims will remain just claims. Research is not going to stop anyways.
 
If a Non-Hindutva breathing reasonable person gives an alternate version of the History, I am willing to listen to him/her, for sure.

I won't accept views like, "Oh, this is the History written by Foreigners, the West or the like"... because it does not matter who wrote the History.. what matters to me is whether this is written by a non-partisan academic.

Let a non-partisan academic tell me the alternate version of the Indian History etc. etc.

Wait & watch.

I am reminded of a quote by T.T.Krishnamachari - "Who is a reasonable man and who is a prudent man? These are matters of litigation"!

How does one identify reasonable and non-partisan people?

Going by the same yardstick that Yamaka proposes, there is merit in Suraju's complaint against blindly accepting European version of Indian history. The divide and conquer strategy used by imperial powers is not a fiction of imagination of hindutva people. Neither was this strategy used only in India.

Divide and rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

O
n one hand, Yamaka wants to get the "whole story right". On the other hand, he will not accept any "rewriting of history". Basically, Yamaka will only accept that which pleases him. This is true for most of the brabas group. Therefore, anyone in this forum accusing anyone else of being partisan is like pot calling the kettle black.

But there is one crucial difference between brabas and the other side in this forum. The brabas depend on history, their view of history, to carry out their agenda. They can defend discriminations against brahmin community only as long as their view of history stands! The other side does not have any such compulsions. They can fight for their rights irrespective of the "true" history!
 
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K, there is a tendency to think there was some sort of uniformity of religious thought that was brutally suppressed by the Muslim invaders and later grossly misrepresented by the British. There is lot the Muslim invaders and the British have to answer for, but, the idea of an idyllic India living in peaceful uniformity is just a myth. The past was characterized by a diversity and conflict all along. (Happy may correct me if I am wrong).

In the South we see a whole host of religious doctrines vying for converts up until the Pallava dynasty. We get a glimpse of this in the concluding chapters of Manimekalai. Entering Kanchi Manimekalai encounters all kinds of religious doctrine. Of course she chooses to enter a Buddha Vihara and becomes a Bikshini, no surpirse as the author of the epic was a Buddhist.

Even in Vaalmiki Ramayanam we see a telling episode in which Jabala Maharishi advocates Charvaka to Rama. He of course gets shot down with severe warning from Lord Rama and jabala backs down feigning he was only kidding.

The near uniform Hinduism we see today, influenced greatly by Brahminism, is a far cry from the market place of ideas that was prevalent. It is clear that people were not afraid of ideas. Criticism of ideas was not immediately seen as offensive and hurting the sentiments. But now, everything is getting beaten down to conform to some form of uniformity, we all belong to Hindutva family, even if you are not a Hindu. All divergent views are seen as offensive, hurtful, western influenced, left-wing biased, Marxist, based on hidden nefarious agenda, etc. etc.

After nearly 65 years after independence we are still finding fault with Europeans for distorting our history. The Hindutva crowd still finds fault with Lord McCauley for the education system. For Lord McCauley to have any effect, we need to get the students to think first, a notion that is squarely rejected in favor of a job in an MNC, which I understand and sympathize, but the fact remains Lord McCauley's vision, if there was one, was a huge failure. The education system we now have in India is one that is nothing more than a network of trade schools.

I like to see us Indians grow a pair, stand up, take a critical look at our past, reject all that is repressive, adopt all that is progressive, forge a better tomorrow. Some of us who are older folks must stand with and encourage our youngsters to think along these lines, instead of adopting a knee jerk reaction, like anything seen as negative by the Hindutva brigade is European conspiracy.

Cheers!
Dear Sir,

I think what irks hindus is that research deflates their pet beliefs.

The mother of all pet beliefs is that an ideal world existed in the past, where everyone was divided into 4 varnas based on their abilities, and where everyone lived happily and peacefully doing their respective jobs.

From whatever have seen on this forum, it seems to me that brahmins love to beleive they were chosen because of their sattva guna and purvajanmakarma. Portions of shastras inconveneint to them should be overlooked.

Then there are people who wish to eulogise their own valor and bravery and run after the kshatriya label. Through the tendency to eulogise various dynasties. This eulogising is done even by dk people, including mk who compared himself to raja raja chola.

Ofcourse (to them) reasons for internecine warfare between chieftains have to be set aside. I found ponnar shanker movie outright silly. Kept wondering how can family fights for land, power, etc be used to eulogise 2 guys (as heros) under the category of valour and bravery. To me, the whole idea of kshatriyahood is a plain laugh.

To hindus anything that questions the caste (or, varna) system from the historical pov, or from the analytical pov of the hindu corpus texts including dharmashastras, is all anti-brahmanism / anti-hinduism.

But ofcourse there are self-designated caveats in all this. A vellalar likes to call himself kshatriya / vaishya but hates a brahmin designating him a shudra. An orthodox brahmin likes to call himself brahmin but may hate anything that traces his origin to a non-brahmin tribe.

Then there are those pet "faith-based" beleifs, like sages meditated upon devas who appeared out of nowhere to grant boons. Anything that contradicts such things (or brings out the rivalry between devas and sages) is anti-hinduism / anti-brahmanism.

All blame has to be placed on the British/Christians and the Muslims. I do agree that the Brits and Muslim invaders were out to loot India. However, putting all blame on them is like putting all blame on brahmins, or all blame on NBs.

Casteist NBs are no different from orthodox Bs. I still remember Senthil (the one in brits are to blame thread) who chose to blame brits and eulogise caste-system.

By Senthil's own admission he ate rats, yet called himself a kongu vellalar. If we take such dietary permissibility into consideration, it may seem this is a case of sanskritisation. Perhaps a case of sanskritisation so recent that even dietary prohibitions are not in place, instead the permissibility is still intact.

Rat-eaters were the lowest of lows. A good number of rat-eaters made claims of being Kurmis, etc in the colonial period (thurston). Musahars are not considered socially equal to other agricultual labourers even to this day.

I feel, if people had not got the opportunity to sanskritise themselves, they wud still be marginalised, fighting for recognition like the arunthatiyars, or cleaning out shit as scavengers or possibly still surviving on rat-meat like the Musahars.

Ofcourse for upholders of the caste system and the shastras (irrespective of B or NB), any form of research that deflates pet beleifs must be opposed. Researchers must be demonised for being western and/or leftist/marxist.

Everyone must delude themselves into beleiving that an idyllic India living in peaceful uniformity existed in the past. A past characterized by diversity, conflict, violence is to be brushed aside.

If people are not even going to recognise problems of the past, wonder how are they going to set right those problems in the present times. Are we still going to have rigid birth-based varna and/or jaati system in hinduism....wonder what is going to be the future of hinduism....

I feel the hindutva brigade wud do better to function as the opposite of Ranvir Sena. They could allow free movement of people between caste structures, from now on atleast. No use getting Ramanujam's essay banned and doing such things....

Addition: I looked up Senthil's blog recently, there are some nice points but he doles out plenty of jaati crap in the typically self-assured way...some of his points are stupid infact, but i do not post comments on his blog. Suppose he comes to this website, i will engage him...
 
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கால பைரவன்;105481 said:
I am reminded of a quote by T.T.Krishnamachari - "Who is a reasonable man and who is a prudent man? These are matters of litigation"!

How does one identify reasonable and non-partisan people?

Going by the same yardstick that Yamaka proposes, there is merit in Suraju's complaint against blindly accepting European version of Indian history. The divide and conquer strategy used by imperial powers is not a fiction of imagination of hindutva people. Neither was this strategy used only in India.

Divide and rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

O
n one hand, Yamaka wants to get the "whole story right". On the other hand, he will not accept any "rewriting of history". Basically, Yamaka will only accept that which pleases him. This is true for most of the brabas group. Therefore, anyone in this forum accusing anyone else of being partisan is like pot calling the kettle black.

But there is one crucial difference between brabas and the other side in this forum. The brabas depend on history, their view of history, to carry out their agenda. They can defend discriminations against brahmin community only as long as their view of history stands! The other side does not have any such compulsions. They can fight for their rights irrespective of the "true" history!

1. India was already divided by the Hindu Caste Hierarchy; British used it as a naturally "divided country" to firmly establish their Rule.

Hence I believe there was not much of "Divide and Rule" strategy.. they perhaps, codified the caste division in the law by getting the cooperation from the upper caste people like Brahmins.

2. The European version of India could very well be correct..unless some academic scholar (who has no affiliation to any political ideology like Hindutva) comes along with his/her original research and corrects the records.

3. Yes, Yamaka likes to get "to the bottom of any issue of his interests"... He learnt recently that the so-called Creamy Layer is a very serious problem in the implementation of the Quota and Reservation in India...Thanks for all the input.

4. Raju & Co has not come up with any cogent argument as to how or why the known Indian History is wrong.... what all they say is "Oh.. it's all written by West, a handed down History".. unfortunately, they - WEST - only had the resources to do the research AND write the History.

Now, the Hindutva people are trying hard... it will not fly because they have a vested interest, politically.

To get any recognition, the study must be backed by intense research and some concrete evidence to back it up.

Wait & watch.
 
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The concept of [rAhu kAlam] - is too well known among Brahmins of the South. And is most prevalent in Tamil Brahmins. The Northern Indian Brahmins couldn't make too much of the phenomenon. Is it superstition and ignorance?

Are you sure ... Are you sure...you could be missing opportunity in kaun banega karODpati.

The die hard "modern guy" Indian Tamizh Brahmin with trust in his ancestors can very well become a history professor of Archeo astronomy of Southern India or even make discoveries in astronomy in astronomy if he bothers to give it a thought. It does not matter where others think you have you brains. They are ignorant in the fundamentals of ostrich biology. And do not understand the totality of the computers they use. They can never develop algorithms for intelligent exhaust and cooling systems nor safe waste disposal systems.

There are very simple pneumonic methods for knowing when it is going to be [rAhu] kAlam on which particular day by asking your grand parents. The method of keeping your closed fists closed and counting knuckles... When you plot the days - the graph shows a wavy pattern.

Is this a report of the observations of the Earth's spin by the ancients? It is easier observed if it exists at all nearer the equator and in South India.

Geophysicist Discovers Why Earth 'Wobbles'

Geophysicist Discovers Why Earth 'Wobbles'
ScienceDaily (May 20, 2004) — The earth wobbles in space. This has been known for over a century by astronomers, and thanks to global positioning system (GPS) technologies, this wobble has been tracked with a precision of a few millimeters over the last decade.

History of Indian civilization is history of a living civilization that has survived despite odds. It is not a history that of a dead and buried civilization that any tom, dick or harry can write whatever he is funded to do for political or religious compulsions by people that are going broke to their own dismay..
 
namaste happy hindu,

"Sorry to disappoint but no one is profiling you for dogma. Neither do folks like yourself encourage study and research in anyway. Research does not depend on dogma-beleivers or any such like. "

sorry to disappoint you... I am unique - I do my own research and am happiest hindu
 
A good starting point: EDUCATION IN PRE COLONIAL INDIA

...That does not finish the picture. We have the education of this future state. I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was fifty or a hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the Brit­ish administrators, when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that, and the beautiful tree perished. The village schools were not good enough for the British administrator, so he came out with his programme. Every school must have so much paraphernalia, building, and so forth. Well, there were no such schools at all. There are statistics left by a British adminis­trator which show that, in places where they have carried out a survey, ancient schools have gone by the board, because there was no recognition for these schools, and the schools established after the European pattern were too expensive for the people, and therefore they could not possibly overtake the thing. I defy anybody to fulfill a programme of compulsory primary education of these masses inside of a century. This very poor country of mine is ill able to sustain such an expensive method of education. Our state would revive the old village schoolmaster and dot every village with a school both for boys and girls.
(MAHATMA GANDHI AT CHATHAM HOUSE, LONDON,
OCTOBER 20, 1931)
 
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A good starting point: EDUCATION IN PRE COLONIAL INDIA

...That does not finish the picture. We have the education of this future state. I say without fear of my figures being challenged successfully, that today India is more illiterate than it was fifty or a hundred years ago, and so is Burma, because the Brit­ish administrators, when they came to India, instead of taking hold of things as they were, began to root them out. They scratched the soil and began to look at the root, and left the root like that, and the beautiful tree perished. The village schools were not good enough for the British administrator, so he came out with his programme. Every school must have so much paraphernalia, building, and so forth. Well, there were no such schools at all. There are statistics left by a British adminis­trator which show that, in places where they have carried out a survey, ancient schools have gone by the board, because there was no recognition for these schools, and the schools established after the European pattern were too expensive for the people, and therefore they could not possibly overtake the thing. I defy anybody to fulfill a programme of compulsory primary education of these masses inside of a century. This very poor country of mine is ill able to sustain such an expensive method of education. Our state would revive the old village schoolmaster and dot every village with a school both for boys and girls.
(MAHATMA GANDHI AT CHATHAM HOUSE, LONDON,
OCTOBER 20, 1931)

This was the assessment of Indian schools in 1931 by Gandhiji..

How is this relevant to the Independent India after 64 years?

Is it possible to go back to "those very cheap way of educating our kids" these days?

No...

India's enemy or competitor is China.. if India loses and lags far behind of China, there will be serious security threat in the near future..

Watch out..
 
This was the assessment of Indian schools in 1931 by Gandhiji..

How is this relevant to the Independent India after 64 years?

Is it possible to go back to "those very cheap way of educating our kids" these days?

No...

India's enemy or competitor is China.. if India loses and lags far behind of China, there will be serious security threat in the near future..

Watch out..

Y,

i agree with you re gandhiji's comments on indian education. i think gandhi's vision of india, as a union of self supported villages, would not play in today's world. not even in gandhi's times.

let us move on to china.

it is only in india, that we consider china a threat. i think, from a chinese viewpoint, india is a mosquito. swapped if presence is known and to be a nuisance. china has 1.2 B folks, and has no intention to add more to its rigidly controlled population.

china is now in major leagues, with france going abegging, to bail out the european economies, by lending money or guaranteeing euro bonds. i am very interested in how china is going to play out this game in the next few weeks.

they will exact a tough price from europe. rumour has it, that they will demand highly sophisticated arms sales, be considered a market economy and hence all criticisms of artificial value of the yuan will stop. also, no more comments on human rights.

let us wait and watch.

re china, let india, tuck its tail between its legs, and be an observer. not play a chela to u.s.a interests. we will get whipped. like 1961 happening again. many a times, discretion is the better part of valour ;)
 
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...re china, let india, tuck its tail between its legs, and be an observer. not play a chela to u.s.a interests. we will get whipped. like 1961 happening again. many a times, discretion is the better part of valour
This is very true, the worst thing India can do is to put all its chips with the USA, a totally unreliable ally. If better wisdom prevails, India will try forge an alliance with Turkey, Brazil and South Africa.

For all the hype about a seat in the UN SC, it is more an albatross around India's neck. If anything, India must play hard to get, let the rest of the world request India to be part of it, otherwise it would end up costing it more than it is wroth, all it would do is push it more and more into being a vassal to USA.

Cheers!
 
ANCIENT CALENDARS AND CONSTELLATIONS By the Hon. EMMELINE M. PLUNKET 1903

By the Hon. EMMELINE M. PLUNKET

on VARAHAMIHIRA by BENTLEY

A Historical View of the Hindu Astronomy, etc., p. i8i.

"The fact is," writes Bentley, "that literary
forgeries are now so common in India, that we can
hardly know what book is genuine, and what not
:
perhaps there is not one book in a hundred, nay,
probably in a thousand, that is not a forgery, in
some point of view or other ; and even those that
are allowed or supposed to be genuine, are found
to be full of interpolations, to answer some particular
ends : nor need we be surprised at all this, when
we consider the facilities they have for forgeries,
as well as their own general inclination and interest
in following that profession ; for to give the ap-pearance
of antiquity to their books and authors
increases their value, at least in the eyes of some.
Their universal propensity to forgeries, ever since
the introduction of the modern system of astronomy
and immense periods of years, in a.d. 538, are but
too well known to require any further elucidation
than those already given. They are under no
restraint of laws, human or divine, and subject to
no punishment, even if detected in the most flagrant
literary impositions." i

Let the child in school read this and decide. The subject is that ancient Greeks educated us. He has just seen a movie called "Percy... " in which Greek Mythological characters are displayed in modern attire and the most quotable quote is by Mercury giving Percy a pair of winged shoes..."...If you see my father on the way give him a kick on his **** for me".
 
THE STUDY OF SANSKRIT IN RELATION TO MISSIONARY WORK IN INDIA; AN INAUGURAL LECTURE DELIVERED BEFORE THE UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD, ON APRIL 19, 1861.BY MONIER-WILLIAMS, M.A.OF UNIVERSITY COLLEGE, OXFORD. BODEN PROFESSOR OF SANSKRIT, ETC

INDIA is of all the possessions of Great Britain the most interesting, and presents the most invit ing prospect to the missionary. He has there no common country or people to deal with, no ordi nary religion. He is not there brought in contact with savage trihes who melt away before the superior force and intelligence of Europeans. He is placed in the midst of a great and ancient peo ple, who, many of them tracing back their origin to the same stock as ourselves, attained a high degree of civilisation when our forefathers were barbarians, and had a polished language and lite rature when English was unknown. ...


And this brings me to the centre to which all my previous observations have converged, the use and importance of Sanskrit to the missionary,as the sacred and learned language of India, the repository of the Veda in its widest sense, the vehicle of Hindu theology, philosophy, and mytho logy, the source of all the spoken dialects, the only safe guide to the intricacies and contradictions of Hinduism, the one bond of sympathy, which, like an electric chain, connects Hindus of opposite characters in every district of India. There can be little doubt that a more correct knowledge of the religious opinions and practices of the San-skritic Hindus, or as we may call them the Hindus proper, is essential to extensive progress in our Indian missions*.

This historical document needs to re wrtten or what?
 
Ref post # 93 -

"He is placed in the midst of a great and ancient peo ple, who, many of them tracing back their origin to the same [FONT=inherit !important][FONT=inherit !important]stock [/FONT][FONT=inherit !important]as[/FONT][/FONT] ourselves, attained a high degree of civilisation when our forefathers were barbarians, and had a polished language and lite rature when English was unknown. ..."

Is this not talking about Aryan Immigration from the Central Asia / West Eurasia?

"There can be little doubt that a more correct knowledge of the religious opinions and practices of the San-skritic Hindus, or as we may call them the Hindus proper, is essential to extensive progress in our Indian missions*"

So, according to this article, Hindus not knowing Sanskrit are not Hindus proper!

Then what would you call most of the TBs who don't know Sanskrit?

Oh, this is the view of Monier-Williams in 1861.. long long time ago!
 
All Hindus know more Sanskrit than others think they know and many times much more than they think they know. Without Tamizh Brahmins - Tamizh Brahmin Groups will have to close shop with a name like Group - who would join it.
 
All Hindus know more Sanskrit than others think they know and many times much more than they think they know.
Proof please?

In my family, i am the only person who knows sanskrit. Not a single person in my parent's generation knows sanskrit. Some of their elders who knew sanskrit are all gone.

Today no one cares to learn sanskrit. AFAIK, sanskrit classes conducted by various groups (which i know of) are attended by less than a handful of people.

People are far too materialistic these days, and hence they concentrate on things they need to make a living.

So how can you claim things on the behalf of all hindus? Hindus include musahars, parayars, gadabas, chenchus, etc -- do all of them know more sanskrit than others think they know ??
 
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Many times China is not taking keen interest in international affairs as India is doing.They may be active through diplomatic channels.Where their country's interest is affected,China reacts angrily to the opinion of other countries.
Will it be possible for India to declare that if the country(India) is not included in the
UNO as a permanent member in the Security Council( with veto powers) and reform is not brought about in the set up of UNO specifying some time period,India has no other alternative except to withdraw its membership from all world Forums.In such an eventuality,what will be the consequences and whether such a stand will be beneficial for the country.
I welcome the views of honourable members of this forum.
 
Many times China is not taking keen interest in international affairs as India is doing.They may be active through diplomatic channels.Where their country's interest is affected,China reacts angrily to the opinion of other countries.
....

BK,

where do you get the impression that of china's behaviour as non participant, and sulkingly immature? i have not seen such in the papers.

if at all anything, there is immense admiration in the west for the way china conducts its foreign affairs. so far, it has not made one misstep. which is why the west is focussing on china's human rights record, for that is the achille's heel of any dictatorship.

btw india is still a nobody in the world forums. maybe in another 10 years we may make an impact...that is my feeling. only because india gets not even 1/100 of the coverage that china gets in western media.
 
Education in india - 1830: There were more schools in india than in UK.

The most well-known and controversial point which emerged from the educational surveys lies in an observation made by William Adam. In his first report, he observed that there exist about 1,00,000 village schools in Bengal and Bihar around the 1830s.(32) This statement appears to have been founded on the impressions of various high British officials and others who had known the different areas rather intimately and over long periods; it had no known backing of official records. Similar statements had been made, much before W. Adam, for areas of the Madras Presidency. Men like Thomas Munro, had observed that ‘every village had a school.’(33) For areas of the newly extended Presidency of Bombay around 1820, senior officials like G.L. Prendergast noted ‘that there is hardly a vil­lage, great or small, throughout our territories, in which there is not at least one school, and in larger villages more.’ (34) Ob­servations made by Dr G.W. Leitner in 1882 show that the spread of education in the Punjab around 1850 was of a similar extent.

Refderences:
32. Report on the state of Education in Bengal,1835. p.6.
33. House of Commons Papers, 1812-13, volume 7, evidence ofThomas Munro, p.127.
34. House of Commons Papers, 1831-32, volume 9, p.468. Prendergast’s statement may betreated with some caution as it was made in the context of his stand that anyexpenditure on the opening of any schools by the British was undesirable. As ageneral impression of a senior British official, however, corroborated bysimilar observations relating to other parts of India, its validity appears beyonddoubt.
 
All Hindus know more Sanskrit than others think they know and many times much more than they think they know. Without Tamizh Brahmins - Tamizh Brahmin Groups will have to close shop with a name like Group - who would join it.

In my estimation, nearly 95% of Brahmins (including TBs) don't know Sanskrit well enough to read an old Vedic text... and 99% of Hindus don't know any Sanskrit at all.

Many of the TBs here in Houston, force-fed Sanskrit to their kids in high school.. Alas these kids totally forgot everything they learned after going to colleges, and are never to come back to the ancient language!

My wife - a Trichy TB - claims that most Brahmins left Sanskrit because it became nearly a "dead language" as Latin is.

Remarkably, Tamil is more ancient than Sanskrit, and it withstood the test of time probably because of Tamil Nationalism throughout the history in TN.

:)

ps. Sanskrit most probably came to India in about 3000 BCE from Central Asia - hence called the Indo-European language, while Tamil is totally Indian - hence called Indo-Dravidian language... I estimate the First Tamil Sangam period started well before 3000 BCE... just a thought.
 
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