Distortions in Indian History

[kunjuppu]

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Re # 164 of SuRaju

Suraju, have no worries about the so-called 'middle castes'. Nobody in the younger generation is interested in casteism, so we just have to wait for the older generation to die off and take their prejudices with them to the grave.

In case some unusual younger generation ones involve in casteism, they better realise that their shelf-life is also limited. Its not going to take long for the 'lower castes' to turn against 'middle-castes'.

This is bound to happen when so-called 'lower castes' no longer sense 'spiritual imperialism'...when they no longer remain 'low' and are genuinely accepted as a social equal before God. As people sense a genuine acceptance from the brahmanical orthodoxy, over time, they are bound to feel empowered, and will eventually run down the casteist 'middle-castes'.

Regards

happy,

sad to say allegience to caste system is very much alive if the show 'neeyaa naanaa' is to be believed.

for the uninitiated, this is a popular group discussion talk show in vijay TV, every sunday. the moderator, gopinathi is good at balancing the diverse views, on today's topics of interest and controversy.

recent one about a couple of weeks ago, dealt with the feelings of those who gave up their love in the interest of family, and those that alienated their family for the sake of love.

almost in all cases of those who rejected love, the reason was caste difference; not even religion. and 100% of them, looking back rued their decision.

so, dear happy, on a day to day decision making level, even among the young, caste and family/society (which i would say means the systemic upholder of caste values) wins over ideals and what is right.

sad.

 

[happyhindu]

happy,

sad to say allegience to caste system is very much alive if the show 'neeyaa naanaa' is to be believed.

for the uninitiated, this is a popular group discussion talk show in vijay TV, every sunday. the moderator, gopinathi is good at balancing the diverse views, on today's topics of interest and controversy.

recent one about a couple of weeks ago, dealt with the feelings of those who gave up their love in the interest of family, and those that alienated their family for the sake of love.

almost in all cases of those who rejected love, the reason was caste difference; not even religion. and 100% of them, looking back rued their decision.

so, dear happy, on a day to day decision making level, even among the young, caste and family/society (which i would say means the systemic upholder of caste values) wins over ideals and what is right.

sad.

Sir, i too saw the show. And i felt those who gave up love for caste were bitter about it. I don't think the same people will practice casteism with their own kids (if their kids were to fall in love outside caste). Yes caste is alive, but isn't it reducing, compared to say even 10 years back??

 

[suraju06]

Dear Kunjuppu,

sad to say allegience to caste sad to say allegience to caste system is very much alive if the show 'neeyaa naanaa' is to be believed.for the uninitiated, this is a popular group discussion talk show in vijay TV, every sunday. the moderator, gopinathi is good at balancing the diverse views, on today's topics of interest and controversy.recent one about a couple of weeks ago, dealt with the feelings of those who gave up their love in the interest of family, and those that alienated their family for the sake of love.almost in all cases of those who rejected love, the reason was caste difference; not even religion. and 100% of them, looking back rued their decision.so, dear happy, on a day to day decision making level, even among the young, caste and family/society (which i would say means the systemic upholder of caste values) wins over ideals and what is right.sad.

That is the truth. And it is not going to be easy to eradicate caste because an entire grand political super-structure is built on these castes. It works well like a well oiled machine from the panchayat ward level to the Central ministry level, from the local police chowky to higher levels of judiciary, the only exception being Indian Armed Forces. Come election, the dormant/incipient but energetic caste affinities come to the fore as full blown fierce loyalties and naked display of majorityism and in turn votes. Can we do away with politics and elections? It is not possible and so it is not possible to do away with castes. So what is the solution?

We do have solutions that can be tried. When we can not confront an adversary in straight single combat, we look at bye-passing options so that we live in this world peacefully. In the fight against casteism what are the options available to us? Can we look at castes as just castes-myriad ethnic groups of people- without giving them the fangs called discrimination? For, discrimination gives the superior and inferior tags and all the resultant atrocities. I would suggest that we leave castes alone. Can we remove the discriminations? Can we legislate that the name of caste should never be material to and asked for in any Government transaction? Can we allocate more resources for the upliftment of dalits so that they come up to the level of other castes and compete on an equal level? Can we bring in a law which will prohibit mentioning the caste of an individual in public? Can we not make it a punishable offence to mention caste in any public discourse? Can we not make it mandatory for pollitical parties to put up candidates from non-majority communities in every constituency so that the casteism/nepotism is not given a chance to breed? Can we not legislate to make it a serious offence if any one is discriminated against for belonging to any particular caste? Can we not legislate to give reservations purely on the basis of economic need (except for dalits whose case is a special one for obvious reasons) and thereby take away the incentive for the casteism for ever?

I know that the arm-chair revolutionaries will jump on me for making the above suggestions because in their obsession with the so called brahminism and brahmins they are blind to reason. More later.

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

dear raju,

i think without willingness to change the minds, any legislation is useless.

even if legislated, we will find 108 different ways to know the antecedents of the persons with whom we are dealing. and whom to exclude and whom to include.

quite recently, i was talking about guindy engineering college to some relative of mine. immediately he jumped, and though he did not mention reservations and quotas, he went on to say, 'it is not the same as before, things are different..' code words that mean a 1008 things.

i give up.

 

[Yamaka]

dear raju,

i think without willingness to change the minds, any legislation is useless.

even if legislated, we will find 108 different ways to know the antecedents of the persons with whom we are dealing. and whom to exclude and whom to include.

quite recently, i was talking about guindy engineering college to some relative of mine. immediately he jumped, and though he did not mention reservations and quotas, he went on to say, 'it is not the same as before, things are different..' code words that mean a 1008 things.

i give up.

Dear K:

I am impressed that Ultra-Nationalists and Traditionalists like dear Raju acknowledged the age-old problems of caste and they talked about some "Solutions by Legislation" (post 178).

I agree that we need to first change the minds (by education?).

For we have hundreds of laws on the books, none is implemented effectively. Possibly because of wide spread corruption from top to bottom.

For various historical reasons, India did not have a chance of Industrial Revolution like in the West, and nor the Cultural Revolution as in China under Chairman Mao, so much so we have a very ancient culture suffocating under the thrust of all the bad habits accumulated over 10,000 years.

As I said before, India is internally divided on caste and other reasons and therefore is very WEAK, which has been the core reason why every Tom, Dick and Harry invaded and easily occupied her for nearly 12 long centuries.

I stress again the same WEAKNESS is continuing... and our High Priests of Indian Identity (read Rajus of India) do not want to see it, the 888 lb gorilla in the living room.

The history will keep repeating......

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

....i think without willingness to change the minds, any legislation is useless.

This is so true. Politicians will always look for ways to stay in power and if that means exploiting the base instincts such as fear or targeted privilege, they will do so. Let me give a couple of examples.

Reagen announced his the Presidency in 1980 in a small town called Philadelphia, Mississippi. The only claim to fame for this little town until then was the murder of three civil rights activits by KKK. What is more, Reagan, in his speech asserted his respect for "state's rights", a code word for state support for racist laws. Why did he choose this little town to announce his candidacy and why use the charged code word, but to garner support from southern white Democrats? When Bush Sr. ran against Dukakis he ran the now infamous Willy Horton ad reminding people of the terrible crimes blacks commit.

The caste-based politics we see in India is similar to the race-based politics in the U.S. The politicians are simply looking for votes any way they can get, they want to exploit the drilled down caste-feelings of people for votes. So, I think blaming the politicians and wishing for more laws is useless. What is needed is an organic change that rejects the varna/jAti system at every individual level.

Caste in politics will go only when the voters reject those politicians who seek votes based on caste affiliation. Such a change will not come from the political leadership, it has to come from the socio-religious leaders. Each caste must take stock of their culpability and come clean. This is where Brahmins, sitting on top of the jAti hierarchy, abandoning their caste and Brahminism will have a huge effect in spite of their 3% size. It is easy to hide behind 3% or putting the entire blame for atrocities committed upon other castes, but, how much change each person is willing to accommodate in his or her life. If one practices jAti system in his/her life, then he/she has to share the blame for all the atrocities committed in the name of jAti anywhere. Don't want the blame, cast aside jAti from your life.

How many individuals who shed tears for the suffering of Dalits will let go of their own caste identity? Paraphrasing JFK, ask not what other castes can do to bring about positive change, ask what each of us can do in our own lives to end this scourge varna/jAti system.

Cheers!

 

[Yamaka]

No. Not for the people of India. But for the people of USA who are trapped inside the gates of Hell of material prosperity and a decaying civilization induced by excessive indulgence in pleasures that come with such material prosperity..........again with dwindling faith in God. Because Yamaka lives in that Hell.
Cheers.

Hello ALL:

Let's for fun dissect out what our dear Raju & a few others are saying here -

1. For me Poverty is a Hell. For Raju Material Prosperity is Hell! ROFL.. then LOL.

Yes, America is a very wealthy country. Majority of the people (about 84%) live "fabulously well" comparing to people in Haiti or other Third world countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia etc

In India, about 50 million urban elites (about 4% of the 1.2 billions) live as good as most Americans (in this many are broadband connected Brahmins in this Forum). The rest spend enormous time praying their Gods for such a nice living like a few of their very lucky city brethren.

2. And this line "decaying civilization induced by excessive indulgence in pleasures that come with such material prosperity"?

What's pleasure, anyway? A very subjective matter.. which has million meanings for seven billion people. Let me not venture there, for now.

For the 96% of Indians locked in impoverished household, the other 4% enjoying material prosperity is slouching towards "decaying civilization". Is it not?

Anyway, this is the primal cry of a person turning blue with jealousy!

Dear Raju can tell his story to the top notch students of IITs, IIMs who are eagerly awaiting a visa paper from US employers to go to the Promised Land as fast as they can, for most believe in the dictum, "If you are good, then why are you NOT in the US already?"

A vast majority become US citizens ASAP and their motherland may not get them back because of all the dirty politics and casteism in vogue.

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Yamaka in post #168:
Yes a civilization(if at all you can call it that ) which is founded on the Native Americans' blood splattered land and built stone by stone with the blood and sweat of men who were slaughtered in the various wars all over the world.

Not material prosperity itself, but the indulgence in excesses that come with it. How sad that you are not able to understand what is said in plain English.

Yes very true. Such 'realists' export evangelists and large funds for conversion to other countries in the "backward" Asian countries as an outcome of their realism or pragmatism.

If you ask the so called wide eyed aspirants, they will also tell you what they intend to do. They are clear that they will make as much money as they can and get back to the paradise, their motherland at the earliest opportunity. Not only because of their love for their motherland but also because they are scared about the prospects of their children loosing their moorings and drifting in an alien culture.

My response is in the post 182 above.

 

[Nara]

....Yes a civilization(if at all you can call it that ) which is founded on the Native Americans' blood splattered land and built stone by stone with the blood and sweat of men who were slaughtered in the various wars all over the world.

Raju, the over the top comment like what exists in the U.S. does not qualify as a civilization not withstanding, it is true that the White migrants from Europe decimated the native population in a myriad of ways. Some of the effects of such maltreatment is still visible in the Western states of the U.S. In addition, the horrendous crimes of slave trade, the attendant violence, and the profiting from slave labor did contribute to the wealth of the country, no doubt.

Of course nothing can mitigate the suffering of those who had to face the greed of the White immigrants. However, we also need to take a broader view and see how the nation has reinvented itself and at least has tried to make amends. In my own piddly experience of roughly 30 years in the U.S. I have seen Blacks make tremendous strides. Where I once saw a spattering of Black students, now I see at least 20% or more Black students in my classes, and the high performing ones in the same proportion as the White students. Once I used to see the Black students congregating with other Black students, now I see a free mixing of Black and White students, including inter-racial couples.

I realize this is happening in India too. But the difference is, here in the U.S. the parents are encouraging this trend, or at least can't stand in the way. But in India, as far what I have seen in person (contrary to your opinion, I do have intimate first hand experience of what is happening in India), and on TV programs like Neeyaa Naanaa, the parents are dead against anything beyond frienship, no intermixing will be tolerated. All this seems to indicate civility has eluded Indians (Tamilians?) till date. So, before casting aspersions about civilization of the Americans or the lack thereof, one is well advised to develope an uniform standard to assess what qualified as civilized behavior and what does not.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Dear Yamaka,

I am impressed that Ultra-Nationalists and Traditionalists like dear Raju acknowledged the age-old problems of caste and they talked about some "Solutions by Legislation" .
our High Priests of Indian Identity (read Rajus of India) do not want to see it.

Ultra-nationalist, Traditionalist, High priest of Indian Identity--Not bad. I enjoy the credits I am getting. Next, I hope, will be perhaps Bharath Ratna or is it going to be Brahmin Ratna? Thank you any way for the fun. LORL.

 

[suraju06]

Nara's post #184:

Nara, that was a reply given to Yamaka's post in a particular context: He said

America - the Newest Civilization on Earth - is a land of Immigrants for Immigrants built by the sweat and tears of ALL Immigrants. They EARNED it by hard work and imagination and with some luck.

1. Yamaka said it is the Newest Civilization on earth. I said it is no civilization.

What you have said " it is true that the White migrants from Europe decimated the native population in a myriad of ways. Some of the effects of such maltreatment is still visible in the Western states of the U.S. In addition, the horrendous crimes of slave trade, the attendant violence, and the profiting from slave labor did contribute to the wealth of the country, no doubt".also confirms only what I have said - that it is not a civilization. At one end you take great pains to save a human life by doing everything that is possible and at another you coolly drop a horrendous bomb on an unsuspecting city in the dead of night- the effect is that people were simply vaporised to vanish into the thin air. So where went all the value you had for the human life? Do you call this civility or a civilization?

2. Yamaka is eloquently hollow when he says "is a land of Immigrants for Immigrants built by the sweat and tears of ALL Immigrants". I said that the most part of the sweat and blood was that of native Americans and 'imported' Africans. They were certainly not immigrants.

3. Yamaka said they earned it by hard work and imagination and with some luck. I said it was just gun-powder combined with a ruthlessness bordering on savagery and a good lot of luck in the form of the vast stretches of virgin steppe land . The hard work was that of the Africans- who did not come as immigrants.

If America is changing that is really good. India is also changing. For that matter every country is changing. The process of change may be at a different pace in different countries which has something to do with their culture and history. There is no need to call names and condemn that one is a very civilized behavior while the other uncivilized. The moment we do that we turn judgmental and all our accumulated prejudices come and take over the process with a vengeance.

Cheers.

 

[subbudu1]

Raju, the over the top comment like what exists in the U.S. does not qualify as a civilization not withstanding, it is true that the White migrants from Europe decimated the native population in a myriad of ways. Some of the effects of such maltreatment is still visible in the Western states of the U.S. In addition, the horrendous crimes of slave trade, the attendant violence, and the profiting from slave labor did contribute to the wealth of the country, no doubt.

Of course nothing can mitigate the suffering of those who had to face the greed of the White immigrants. However, we also need to take a broader view and see how the nation has reinvented itself and at least has tried to make amends. In my own piddly experience of roughly 30 years in the U.S. I have seen Blacks make tremendous strides. Where I once saw a spattering of Black students, now I see at least 20% or more Black students in my classes, and the high performing ones in the same proportion as the White students. Once I used to see the Black students congregating with other Black students, now I see a free mixing of Black and White students, including inter-racial couples.

I realize this is happening in India too. But the difference is, here in the U.S. the parents are encouraging this trend, or at least can't stand in the way. But in India, as far what I have seen in person (contrary to your opinion, I do have intimate first hand experience of what is happening in India), and on TV programs like Neeyaa Naanaa, the parents are dead against anything beyond frienship, no intermixing will be tolerated. All this seems to indicate civility has eluded Indians (Tamilians?) till date. So, before casting aspersions about civilization of the Americans or the lack thereof, one is well advised to develope an uniform standard to assess what qualified as civilized behavior and what does not.

Cheers!

I agree with you Nara. We must have uniform standards for assessing people. The west has managed to provide an easy platform for its youngsters to do what they want . There the people have a much more easy way to exercise an option. A white can marry a black without concern. i do not think it is as easy in Europe as it is in USA. There is thus that freedom and the society depends on the individuals to exercise responsibility. In India , our system is such that Individuals are seldom invested with independant responsibility. There is a society which comes into play. To some extent the youngsters have freed themselves from this in India in recent times. In the rural side the hold is much much more.

However I am not in favor of idealizing the americans.Some may think I am an American Basher. But I think what America has done to patronize terrorism, create problems in Afghanistan and Iran is not good. A large number of Americans look at this positive especially the whites.

Inspite of affirmative action where are the lowest dalits of America, the native Americans?

I think that while there is nothing wrong in admonishing India left and right. I am open to this free criticism of Indian society. Let all our dirt and our evil in Kashmir and North east come out. But we should also be open in pointing out the wrong of the west. Because this is the model of economy and model of culture that was being copied as an Ideal until 7-8 years back. I feel that we must be very open to criticism on both sides , so that the society can develop on a line away from the mistakes and sins of the past wherever it may have been committed. America also still has to go some way in self-introspection.

Reading of the works of Karl Marx and it piling up as a bestseller in the west, and so I have heard is only the first step.

 

[suraju06]

Nara's post #181 for reference:

The caste-based politics we see in India is similar to the race-based politics in the U.S. The politicians are simply looking for votes any way they can get, they want to exploit the drilled down caste-feelings of people for votes. So, I think blaming the politicians and wishing for more laws is useless. What is needed is an organic change that rejects the varna/jAti system at every individual level.

This is what people usually say when they just preach. In a democracy law making is the only effective way to bring about any change in the society. If we are going to say politicians will not change their behavior and so change should come at individual level we are not going any where. If Anna Hazare's insistent demand for a Lok Pal covering every one operating the levers power can succeed a similar demand for appropriate legislation for dealing with discrimination can also succeed. What is needed is organizing people.If the term 'organic Change' is used in this sense I have no dispute.

Such a change will not come from the political leadership, it has to come from the socio-religious leaders. Each caste must take stock of their culpability and come clean. This is where Brahmins, sitting on top of the jAti hierarchy, abandoning their caste and Brahminism will have a huge effect in spite of their 3% size. It is easy to hide behind 3% or putting the entire blame for atrocities committed upon other castes, but, how much change each person is willing to accommodate in his or her life

Brahmins sit on the top of the totem pole in only a decorative or notional way without any say on any thing in the society. They have been thoroughly and systematically discredited and hounded into seclusion. Even a Tamil Movie has to show a Brahmin only as a stupid fellow with a tuft talking Tamil in a strange accent with a daughter who either falls in love with a Thevar Boy (note it has to be only a Thevar boy and not a dalit boy) or goes away to a far off city to be a call girl to support her poor family back home. I have yet to come across a movie in Tamil in which a Thevar girl falls in love with a dalit boy and marries him defying the parents. Perhaps it is an unwritten no no rule in Tamil filmdom making good economic sense. No one will listen to Brahmins even if they take up caste eradication as the theme for their lecture. They will be ridiculed as weaklings for their proneness to compromise. The 3% is such a proportion that you don't have to hide anywhere. You are just lost in the crowd. You don't hide a needle in a haystack. It is just lost and becomes completely insignificant.

But , yes, it makes excellent reading when you come across rhetoric like " without putting the entire blame for atrocities committed upon other castes we must think how much change each person is willing to accommodate in his or her life" and "ask not what other castes can do to bring about positive change, ask what each of us can do in our own lives to end this scourge varna/jAti system". Just that and nothing more.

 

[sangom]

I agree with you Nara. We must have uniform standards for assessing people. The west has managed to provide an easy platform for its youngsters to do what they want . There the people have a much more easy way to exercise an option. A white can marry a black without concern. i do not think it is as easy in Europe as it is in USA. There is thus that freedom and the society depends on the individuals to exercise responsibility. In India , our system is such that Individuals are seldom invested with independant responsibility. There is a society which comes into play. To some extent the youngsters have freed themselves from this in India in recent times. In the rural side the hold is much much more.

Dear Shri subbudu,

Just this morning I came to know from my brother, during gossip, that in a certain Namboodiri family in his place - a small rural town till recently, now growing fast into a big township - has had marriages with christian, muslim, ezhava and both brides and bride grooms. The ancestral "illam" still continues and one very old member of the patriarchal family lives there with the help of cook, servants etc., in the strictly traditional way.

The younger family members spread around the globe, many of them doctors, come, spend their vacations with the foreign born kids, in the old Namboodiri lifestyle and then depart, every one or two years. I am citing this just to indicate that even in India the society's hold was not all that strong and mighty and what perhaps played was the lack of financial might (poverty) to break free of societal rules. In this case pl. note that all are doctors and financially very highly placed.

However I am not in favor of idealizing the americans.Some may think I am an American Basher. But I think what America has done to patronize terrorism, create problems in Afghanistan and Iran is not good. A large number of Americans look at this positive especially the whites.

Inspite of affirmative action where are the lowest dalits of America, the native Americans?

US has a bloody history and so has the rest of the Americas. To add to this some parts of US were penal transportation colonies for the British. I have also read that ship owners used to contract for condemned criminals in British prisons and enlist them in voyages to the Americas on condtion that they would be set free (from chains) only after landing on American shores. Such is the lineage of many white americans of today also possibly. Hence, no wonder that the US has a predilection towards criminality in international arena.

I think that while there is nothing wrong in admonishing India left and right. I am open to this free criticism of Indian society. Let all our dirt and our evil in Kashmir and North east come out. But we should also be open in pointing out the wrong of the west. Because this is the model of economy and model of culture that was being copied as an Ideal until 7-8 years back. I feel that we must be very open to criticism on both sides , so that the society can develop on a line away from the mistakes and sins of the past wherever it may have been committed. America also still has to go some way in self-introspection.

Reading of the works of Karl Marx and it piling up as a bestseller in the west, and so I have heard is only the first step.

I agree.

 

[Yamaka]

"There is no need to call names and condemn that one is a very civilized behavior while the other uncivilized. The moment we do that we turn judgmental and all our accumulated prejudices come and take over the process with a vengeance." Raju post 186

Dear Raju:

You unleashed your anti-American venom for my statement

"Yarukkaha Azhuvan Yamaka"? When I answered "For the billion people locked inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty in India (my birth place).

Where did I call names and condemn that one is very civilized behavior.......etc etc.?

Please cite the post, if you can?

Yes, all along I have maintained that

1. There is no God defined as the Super Natural Agent controlling ALL activities of humans and inanimate objects in the Universe.

2. Janma Poorva Karma is a hoax because there can't be any Rebirth and Reincarnation of Soul.

3. As such, there is no possible use of prayers, poojas and bhajans because there is no Agent to listen to all this activity and duly respond.

4. Vast majority of people in India waste their time in item 3 above.

Thus, I hypothesized that FATALISM of the built-in Beliefs above contribute to the backwardness of most Indians.

Where's the problem here, dear Raju? Why so-much anti-American venom?

Pure Vengeance out of simple Jealousy, perhaps?

Enjoy it.

 

[Nara]

....However I am not in favor of idealizing the americans.Some may think I am an American Basher. But I think what America has done to patronize terrorism, create problems in Afghanistan and Iran is not good. A large number of Americans look at this positive especially the whites.

Subbudu, I agree with you, the U.S. foreign policy is a disaster for everyone. While the Americans themselves are paying an enormous price in blood and treasure, the price the victims of American aggression are having to pay is several multiples worse. For example, why on earth the U.S. needs an embassy staff of 16,000 in Iraq, a private army of 5000 contract security personnel from the likes of Blackwater, helicopter gunships, and a huge arsenal of assorted military weaponry? This is occupation by the State Department in place of Defense Department?

Inspite of affirmative action where are the lowest dalits of America, the native Americans?

The comparison between the native Americans and Dalits of India is not an appropriate one in my view. The natives enjoy sovereignty in their land and they manage their affairs without interference, something Dalits never had. The lot of the natives is certainly pretty bad, but it is more because of neglect than active discrimination.

The story of African Americans is different, they still suffer racism in various forms and in this respect we can draw some parallel with Indian Dalits. But, from my experience both in the U.S. and in India, I can say with fair confidence that if one manages to take education seriously, blacks are accepted in the main stream quite readily. The racism in the U.S. takes the form of institutional neglect and the prejudice of low expectation. Whereas, in India Dalits are still struggling to get social acceptance even if they are well educated.

Let me put it this way, there is still a social stigma attached with being identified as a Dalit, but there is no such stigma in being black.

But we should also be open in pointing out the wrong of the west.

I wholeheartedly second this.

America also still has to go some way in self-introspection.

You are being generous, I think they have a long way to go.

Reading of the works of Karl Marx and it piling up as a bestseller in the west, and so I have heard is only the first step.

Marx is still the veritable bogy man in the U.S. and this is more because of ignorance of what he stood for and what he wrote.

In any case, I think it is not wise to have a race to the bottom. The presence of racism in the west and the dire need to criticize it cannot and must not be a reason to let up on Indian castiesm. They both need to be mercilessly criticized. My hope is Sangom sir does not see this as a zero sum game, as we have go easy on casteism and turn our attention to attacking western racism. Let us attack both racism in the U.S. for which I will supply ample facts and data, and let us also offer our well deserved criticism of casteism/Brahminism and its practitioners.

I realize not much may be achieved by us screaming in a closed room, but, at least let us scream about both the scourges and not let one scourge be used as justification for letting the other one go lightly. Also, who knows what the readers will take away from our exhortations, even if we change one mind I think that would be well worth the effort.

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

The difference is that racism was and is from a majority class towards a minority class. Fortunately the majority class now looks down, and tries to abolish it all forums. The Emancipation was proclaimed by a white president and lot of white people gave their life for the cause. Lyndon Johnson another white president legislated MLK's dream.

Who is the ruling class in Tamil Nadu or India now? Are they perpetuating caste based division? Are they the one to change? This caste based discussion seems to be the cry of few. What is the true picture of this opposed class? Who is the oppressor? What powers do the oppressor have? Please name names and exact charges against them. I have yet to see reliable cases produced. Please show the generalized oppression pattern and the the group of perpetrators in the year 2011.

 

[Nara]

....1. Yamaka said it is the Newest Civilization on earth. I said it is no civilization.

What you have said " it is ....".also confirms only what I have said - that it is not a civilization.

Raju, I really don't know what you mean by "no civilization". Also, what Y said and what I said, in my view, do not lead to your conclusion that there was no civilization, if by civilization you mean sublime culture. Gandhi was supposed to have said, in response to a question what he thought about western civilization, it is a good idea, i.e. it is about time they started one. This may be a clever retort, but does not mean much.

At one end you take great pains to save a human life by doing everything that is possible and at another you coolly drop a horrendous bomb on an unsuspecting city in the dead of night- the effect is that people were simply vaporised to vanish into the thin air. So where went all the value you had for the human life? Do you call this civility or a civilization?

It was a horrendous act of unimaginable cruelty and IMO, Truman is a mass murderer and a war criminal. But that does not mean there is no culture in the U.S. If this is the standard, then, in my view, due to the horrendous jAti/Varna oppression still being practiced in India, India is devoid of any civilization, which I reject with equal vehemence.

2. Yamaka is eloquently hollow when he says "is a land of Immigrants for Immigrants built by the sweat and tears of ALL Immigrants". I said that the most part of the sweat and blood was that of native Americans and 'imported' Africans. They were certainly not immigrants.

In my view both you and Y are correct it different ways. More below ...

3. Yamaka said they earned it by hard work and imagination and with some luck. I said it was just gun-powder combined with a ruthlessness bordering on savagery and a good lot of luck in the form of the vast stretches of virgin steppe land . The hard work was that of the Africans- who did not come as immigrants.

This is why I say you are ill informed about American history. BTW, this is not a personally derogatory comment. Not knowing something is not a flaw, I am blissfully uninformed about many nations in the world and I sure hope that is not taken as a character flaw.

It was not just black slaves that built the country, they surely had a big part in it and are not given the full credit they deserve. Besides the sweat and blood of black slaves, the waves of immigrants coming from different parts of Europe also slogged like slaves and contributed to what the nation was to become. They did not suffer the many indignities of being a literal slave and that was the only thing that separated them from the actual slaves. These poor white immigrants were treated almost as though they were slaves by the rich factory and business owners.

Take a look at novels by Uptain Synclair (The Jungle), Jack London (Iron Heel), and John Steinbeck (Grapes of Wrath), to get a glimpse of life for ordinary white people, in some ways even worse than that of the slaves who were after all valuable property to be cared for lest their value will decline.

The point is not that blacks and natives did not suffer, they did, big time, but it is not as though the country was built solely on their toil, many ordinary people were taken advantage of by the rich and powerful.

Once again, I am not trying to rationalize what was done to black slaves, no right thinking person would. But, it is a fallacy to say the nation was built only on the sweat and blood of black slaves. (BTW, the natives were never slaves, they were slaughtered yes, but they never were part of the productive work force of the U.S. economy, as slaves or exploited workers).

There is no need to call names and condemn that one is a very civilized behavior while the other uncivilized. The moment we do that we turn judgmental and all our accumulated prejudices come and take over the process with a vengeance.Cheers.

Calling names, is that not par for the course in certain segments of our membership ? May be I missed something, could you please elaborate, who called what names of whom?

Thank you ...

 

[sarang]

[h=3]Some information on impoverishment of india by the british. The ryotwari and jamindari systems instituted by thew british took away all the land from the local population and made them sink into debts.

How Britain plundered colonial India - George Monbiot[/h]

Outsourcing Unrest
June 17, 2009

The 300 year colonial adventure is over at last, which is why Britain is in political crisis.

By George Monbiot. Published in the Guardian 9th June 2009

quote 1:
"There will probably never be a full account of the robbery this country organised, but there are a few snapshots. In his book Capitalism and Colonial Production, Hamza Alavi estimates that the resource flow from India to Britain between 1793 and 1803 was in the order of £2m a year, the equivalent of many billions today. The economic drain from India, he notes, “has not only been a major factor in India’s impoverishment … it has also been a very significant factor in the Industrial Revolution in Britain.”(1) As Ralph Davis observes in The Industrial Revolution and British Overseas Trade, from the 1760s onwards India’s wealth “bought the national debt back from the Dutch and others … leaving Britain nearly free from overseas indebtedness when it came to face the great French wars from 1793.”(2)"

quote 2:
"Just as grain was sucked out of Ireland at the height of its great famine, so Britain continued to drain India of food during its catastrophic hungers. In Late Victorian Holocausts, Mike Davis shows that Indian wheat exports to the UK doubled between 1876 and 1877 as subsistence there collapsed(5). Several million Indians died of starvation. In the North Western provinces the famine was wholly engineered by British policy, as their surplus production was exported to offset poor English harvests in 1876 and 1877(6)."

ref: Bharatkalyan97: How Britain plundered colonial India - George Monbiot

 

[sarang]

A better paraphrasing will be "ask not what your caste has done to you, ask what you can do to promote your caste's values, ideals, and respect other castes"

The government has accepted existence of castes, the individual castes are thriving; abolition of castes is nothing but a pipe dream.

As we all are forced to accept secularism - tolerance and accommodation of other religions, all can accept tolerance to other castes; it is provided in the constitution.

Screaming at brahmins will only lead to ulcers and cancer of throat and mind.

One can throw away the brahmin varna acquired at birth and move on in his/her chosen route. Why keep looking back on past, perceived illusions and vent hot air?

 

[happyhindu]

Some information on impoverishment of india by the british. The ryotwari and jamindari systems instituted by thew british took away all the land from the local population and made them sink into debts.

Those who went to penury were "high class dalits", that is, tribal guys elevated as 'kshatriyas' by 'brahmins'. It did not matter to the farmer, carpenter, blacksmith, or the "ordinary dalit" whether the englishman or the "brahmins-kshatriyas" looted them and lived off their labour. The "ordinary dalit" had nothing to lose either way.

A better paraphrasing will be "ask not what your caste has done to you, ask what you can do to promote your caste's values, ideals, and respect other castes"

Why not respect character, values, and a person for what he is. Wonder why do you guys keep demanding respect for yourself based on your caste. Btw, it is better self-imagined 'dvijas' do not follow 'values' based on your caste, you will find yourself booked for abuse under the SC/ST Act.

The government has accepted existence of castes, the individual castes are thriving; abolition of castes is nothing but a pipe dream.

As we all are forced to accept secularism - tolerance and accommodation of other religions, all can accept tolerance to other castes; it is provided in the constitution.

If you feel forced to accept secularism, why live in India. The option to take smrithis/dharmashastras, casteism, slavery, etc to an other country always exists.

Screaming at brahmins will only lead to ulcers and cancer of throat and mind.

Getting rid of brahmanism (labour laws) is the cure for the ulcers and cancer the society suffers.

One can throw away the brahmin varna acquired at birth and move on in his/her chosen route. Why keep looking back on past, perceived illusions and vent hot air?

Yes, why ask everyone to bask in an imagined hot air of caste/varna..

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

There is no country in the World without caste. Caste is based throughout, especially amongst politicians. If you
read the history of India, you will find number of attempts have been made to raise the lower classes of people.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[suraju06]

Yamaka's post #190:

What you have quoted from my post #186 was a reply to Nara's post 184 reproduced below:

All this seems to indicate civility has eluded Indians (Tamilians?) till date. So, before casting aspersions about civilization of the Americans or the lack thereof, one is well advised

Now about your post: You have said "You unleashed your anti-American venom for my statement"

If statement of facts of history become venom it only reflects the state of mind of the person who makes that charge. Yamaka, you have strong prejudices about America, your life there, your so called achievements and your pet theme of Atheism. So it is a strong wall which can not be penetrated and nothing on the other side will be visible to you either. On and off I also notice a strange thing happening to you-I am talking about your turning a psychiatrist analysing the state of mind of people in this forum. Your comments like "pure vengeance out of simple jealousy" etc show only that. What do you know about me, my life, and my successes or otherwise to come to the conclusion that I have envy. And what is there in you for me to envy? What do you have that I do not have? How did you come to the conclusion? I know you won't be able to answer these questions.Like a child playing with dolls tells its playmate " you dirtied my doll so I dirty your doll", with your bait you are trying to draw me into a spat of mutual recrimination which I am refusing to bite. Go and try it with some one else. I have seen enough of life, world and people to be beyond all that. Come on, become a grown up my dear friend. It will do a lot of good to you.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Reference post #196:

Those who went to penury were "high class dalits", that is, tribal guys elevated as 'kshatriyas' by 'brahmins'. It did not matter to the farmer, carpenter, blacksmith, or the "ordinary dalit" whether the englishman or the "brahmins-kshatriyas" looted them and lived off their labour. The "ordinary dalit" had nothing to lose either way.

This is true if people can believe the cock and bull story that 3% of the population decided the fate of the rest 97%. May be 1 in a billion is so credulous to believe this kind of a story and come and tell that here. That too in a country where there are enough stories about kings drowning brahmins tied to stone pillars in sea and kings gorging out the eyes of brahmins for refusing to obey them etc.

Why not respect character, values, and a person for what he is. Wonder why do you guys keep demanding respect for yourself based on your caste. Btw, it is better self-imagined 'dvijas' do not follow 'values' based on your caste, you will find yourself booked for abuse under the SC/ST Act

Why not respect character values and person for what he is? Why not put up such men as candidates in elections? Why do they have to be belonging to the majority caste (not brahmin any way) in that constituency? Yes if the dwijas speak about castes they will be put behind bars whereas majority castes can say and do any thing (this includes raping tribal women as happened in Vachathi, roasting alive men women and children as happened in Keelvenmony)and the law will not do anything to them for long( in some cases untill the culprits die a natural death). It is majority-ism that is ruling the country. Dwijas beware of what you speak and post here! This particular threat has been held out by the poster many times earlier in this forum.

If you feel forced to accept secularism, why live in India. The option to take smrithis/dharmashastras, casteism, slavery, etc to an other country always exists.

Yes, because India is the exclusive father's property of only the majority castes all dwijas (and dalits too) go and jump either into the Bay of Bengal or the Arabian sea. It will be good riddance for the majority castes.

Getting rid of brahmanism (labour laws) is the cure for the ulcers and cancer the society suffers.

We will never say(even for a statement's sake) 'get rid of casteism' because it bites and hurts us badly. We will only say 'get rid of brahminism' to deflect/shift the focus from the real oppressor castes. Better wording it, we would even say 'get rid of brahmins' because our 'great great leader', the 'Socrates of Tamilnadu' had once said that. But decorum and Praveen prevent us from going that far.

Cheers.

 

[sarang]

You are likely to end up in gallows for indulging in 'jathi perai solli thittarathukku"

Tone down your anti brahmin bursts or else face the music when some brahmin takes you to court.

We brahmins never abuse or insult anyone.

Mayawati, UP chief minister and the sole liberator of dalits has opined that brahmins and dalits are the most exploited communities and must work together for their collective betterment.

Btw, it is better self-imagined 'dvijas' do not follow 'values' based on your caste, you will find yourself booked for abuse under the SC/ST Act.