Distortions in Indian History

[suraju06]

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Ref. Sangom in post #150:

One should not forget that 40 years have passed since the birth of Bangladesh; USSR is only a frail shadow of the superpower it was then, China is a real superpower and Pakistan has the A-bomb most probably. There is no superpower today to whom the Indian PM can send emissaries and sign a friendship treaty with that super power, with the key clause of the treaty being "both the contracting parties will consider an attack on any one of them as an attack on themselves and take appropriate action inconsultation with each other."

Time has not stood still for India either. India today is not what it was 40 years back.Like every one else we too have moved forward. India is not a banana republic who can be pushed around. Nuclear deterrence has its own dynamics. India is matured enough to handle its relations with its difficult neighbors.

The Indian army we may boast of, out of a misplaced sense of patriotism, but it is not able to stand up to China in Kashmir or Arunachal Pradesh;

There is no misplaced patriotism here. It is being aware of one's own strength, one's adversary's strength and the circumstances. In Kashmir and in AP it is a stand off. Sporadic probings by both sides is making news headlines. A routine patrol confronting another is quite different from a skirmish and a skirmish is quite different from an incident and an incident is different from a full fledged war. After the 1965 disaster, Chinese were given a bloody nose in Cho La and that was the only one serious incident ever to happen till date.

That should be "certainly we will not like to be, will not like to imagine ourselves be suckers, whatever the reality may be". After all did not VeeraPaandiya Kattabomman declare "naam jayittukkoNTE irukkiROm" even moments before his fort was overrun? That is our heritage!

Doubting Thomases will always doubt.

Of course there is no wishful thinking at all in the past events recounted. But when one says, "if Chinese or Americans ever thought of doing any harm to India, they will certainly get a bloody nose." is mere wishful thinking. Let the Chinese or Americans not get any such idea. Let us pray God for that!

A war is always a last resort. It is always avoided till the last moment. But if it has to be a war, soldiers do not go to the front wearing kid gloves.

 

[kunjuppu]

Let us turn back the calenders a few years beyond the 1970s.

The good will that was generated in the usa for india, in the aftermath of 1961 sino Indian conflict, soon disappeared, as Nehru once again, after the initial shock, resumed his criticism of the west, and usa in particular.

We may have forgotten that in 1960s, the Himalayan border was left undefended. ‘throw the rascals out, nehru was supposed to have told his army generals, except our soldiers froze to death, our trucks did not start and there were no roads. The ordinance factories were producing toys and such, anything but armaments.

Nov 1962, After kennedy came Johnson, after Nehru came indira. No love was lost between them, the usa got increasingly involved in Vietnam, which india was against to the hilt. China and ussr had a tactical agreement to help north Vietnam, and the usa took the biggest licking ever, in their history.

Wounded in the ground, and their pride, the usa learned the lessons of Vietnam, and the benefit of financing a proxy war.

The tables were turned topsy turvy in Afghanistan, with usa arming the locals against a Russian physical presence. More than anything else, Afghanistan drove ussr to bankruptcy. Foreign wars are expensive, and even though ussr had land borders with afghans, it simply could not handle the losses of humans and materials. The ussr folded.

Along with it, came the end of ussr bharat bhaibhais – where we used to pay for mig jets with our best mangoes and coconuts. The new Russia wanted hard currency, which was the biggest shock for india in the 1990s. no more special friendship, and so india, turned to befriending the only superpower, which also was its biggest markedt and foreign exchange source. You simply do not bite the hand that bites you, especially when huge amounts are involved.

George bush, appa and son, forgot the lessons of Vietnam and Afghanistan. So short is the American memory. I don’t know why, but as a result, they are taking a licking in afghanisitan. In iraq theya re leaving a mess behind, and no one knows who is going to kill who, when the last yank leaves. Which is very soon.

All this while, china quietly built up its economy. So massive is the scale of its manufacturers, that china is the sole supplier to the world for many of the basic products. Admittedly it made china more dependent on the rest of the world, and more so on the usa than ever before.

India would be smart not to test out china’s will power in the Himalayas, but seek peace and accommodation. For otherwise, we will shed more Indian blood, and a lot of Indian ego and self respect. It is better to tbe thought of as having a good army, than going to war, and disproving it.

China will never want to control india. Who wants to take over 1.2 billlion people and all their associated problems, india is a mess to rule, and would be even more messy to rule. The Chinese are smart, and so far, have hardly made any mistake in their geopolitical encounters.

In the late 1970s, soon after the Vietnam usa war, china had a brief skirmish with Vietnam. And got its nose bloodied, as the PLA was no match for the battle hardened Vietnamese, who had just thrashed the most power country in the world.

The west has one ace card versus the Chinese. Individual freedom based democracy. In a country of 1.2+ billion, china is, there are enough discontents. These are constantly being stirred up by the usa and its allies. It may not be enough to topple the current power structure, but could divert their attention enough, so as to leave countries like india alone.

In the meanwhile, it is best if india is watchful of the situations, keeps its head and focuses on internal development. Let us not go into the Nehru mode of lecturing the world – nopbody listens anyway.

at the moment, we are bleeding in kashmir. maybe we should put our effort to resolve that issue, another nehru legacy and a continued cancers that keeps festering into our psyche.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Raju: Ref your post 146; Mine 117 and 136.

Yes.. your retrospective narration of what happened in 1970 is true... Mrs. Gandhi made history & geography.

If you read my hypothesis, I used the word "unfortunately".

Therefore, it is not my wishful thinking that the Chinese invade India!

I am only saying that everyday India is getting weaker economically AND militarily than our neighbor Chinese!

Cheers.



Here is my real Wishful Thinking....

Time 9:00 AM Washington DC Sometime in Mar 2012.

From the White House, Oval Office, here is Barack H. Obama -

"Good Morning, my fellow Americans. I am here to inform you a very serious matter of utmost concern to the World Peace. As you see in this high resolution satellite video, as we speak, Chinese Army is invading India on multiple fronts without much resistance on the ground.

I just spoke to the Prime Minister of India, Dr. MMS. He is a scholar and my friend. I very much admire his leadership. My call to President Hu is ignored. Therefore, as your Elected President, and the power vested in me, I have ordered the complete mobilization of our world-wide military assets against the Chinese naked aggression at the northern borders of India. I am determined to protect the Peace in the World, and avoid another World War in this early new Century.

Our Seventh Fleet will reach the Bay of Bengal very soon, and the nuclear armed submarines will line up in the China Sea along the International Waters.

Our beloved military Boys and Girls WILL invade and OCCUPY Shanghai immediately. Unless the Chinese army withdraws unconditionally.

God Bless them... God Bless you and the United States of America."

Yarukkaha Azhuvan Yamaka? For the hapless people of India (about one billion) who are trapped inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty... because of Tradition and Belief in God.

 

[Nara]

....Here is my real Wishful Thinking....

Wow, your wishful thinking is too terrible to even begin to contemplate. Military conflict in this scale will inevitably involve untold suffering and misery for millions upon millions of ordinary folks.

My wishful thinking is those wielding state power will have a little more wisdom and a little less jingoistic patriotism. My wishful thinking is saner voices will guide the minds of those in decision making positions. My wishful thinking is mutually beneficial trade will trump avarice.

God Bless them... God Bless you and the United States of America."

I don't know what is worse, to bless in the name of "God" or the idea of blessing an imaginary military conflict.

Tell me Y it ain't so, tell me all this is just a big joke..... you blessing in the name of God makes me think this is nothing more than a joke, hope I am correct

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

May I say, with reference to the high-lighted portion above, each layer or tier trying to catch up with the higher tiers in the jati status, and at the same time putting down those tiers which are considered to be below itself?

This is so true Sangom sir.

In this system everyone is a minority, one that is pitted against all the rest, a majority. Each tier wishes to move up, which is resisted by those occupying the higher tiers, and each tier faces the pressure from those below it to move up to their own ranking. So, each jAti is a minority, and the only way to maintain one's position, or somehow manage to move up, is by means of violence or believable threat of violence, or some aggressive tactics.

This is why varna/jAti system is a devilish system, the sooner the nation gets rid of it, the better it is for everyone, particularly Brahmins as they are the ones held primarily responsible for it, rightly as I would suggest, or wrongly as others would undoubtedly insist.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Re post # 150 and 152.

I feel India's inadequecy stemmed from a lack of belonging. We were so busy dividing ourselves in the name of caste that the world simply went ahead in a super-jet ahead of us. Anyone came and invaded. There was no unity.

Now that Shringeri Mutt has taken the first step to get rid of birth-based divisions i hope everyone can look forward to true development and inclusiveness. More importantly, a sense of belonging. With real development to follow. Can't tell you how thrilled i am to read the news of an NB joining Shringeri Mutt....my head suddenly feels so light up in the air...

Now i truly hope India will put aside divisive caste tendencies, get rid of reservations everywhere, bring people together and make strides in the sciences, philosophy, art, music, etc..

Jai Hind

 

[Yamaka]

Wow, your wishful thinking is too terrible to even begin to contemplate. Military conflict in this scale will inevitably involve untold suffering and misery for millions upon millions of ordinary folks.

My wishful thinking is those wielding state power will have a little more wisdom and a little less jingoistic patriotism. My wishful thinking is saner voices will guide the minds of those in decision making positions. My wishful thinking is mutually beneficial trade will trump avarice.

I don't know what is worse, to bless in the name of "God" or the idea of blessing an imaginary military conflict.

Tell me Y it ain't so, tell me all this is just a big joke..... you blessing in the name of God makes me think this is nothing more than a joke, hope I am correct

Cheers!

Dear N:

I hope you read my post 117, before you read my "mental fart" in post 136, then you read dear Raju's post 146, before reading post 153.

Whether you call it jingoistic patriotism or not, all most all 200 countries have Standing Armies, and almost everyone is modernizing their military everyday, including China and the US.

Yes, there are pacifist all over the world, simultaneously, working towards a world of peace and prosperity everywhere. Thus, we live in a world torn between two extremes.

In post 153 what I am saying is IF China invades India for economic gains, then Obama should send the US military to occupy Shanghai, the Crown Jewel of Modern China... you say, it's wrong... then would you say China is wrong also if they invade India?

Mutually beneficial trade is happening now. But China is very aggressive in pulling the poor Chinese out of poverty: their rural China is healthier and more prosperous than the rural India.

Chinese will not hesitate to go to war for economic advantage... not that they will take over India and its 1.2 billion people and billion problems... they could very well occupy economically advantageous land near the border, I am afraid.

What's happening politically in India is angering me everyday: they shut down the Parliament for the slightest of reasons. Because of dirty politics.

Who suffers finally? The one billion Aam Admi who is making less than Rs.100 a day!

Regarding my last line about God Bless America etc.... it was meant to be a parody on "the traditional speeches that every President gives" whether he means it or not.

BHO just follows the tradition.

I want you to comment on the theme of my post 117, if you have time, please.

Cheers.

 

[sangom]

Dear Raju: Ref your post 146; Mine 117 and 136.

Yes.. your retrospective narration of what happened in 1970 is true... Mrs. Gandhi made history & geography.

If you read my hypothesis, I used the word "unfortunately".

Therefore, it is not my wishful thinking that the Chinese invade India!

I am only saying that everyday India is getting weaker economically AND militarily than our neighbor Chinese!

Cheers.



Here is my real Wishful Thinking....

Time 9:00 AM Washington DC Sometime in Mar 2012.

From the White House, Oval Office, here is Barack H. Obama -

"Good Morning, my fellow Americans. I am here to inform you a very serious matter of utmost concern to the World Peace. As you see in this high resolution satellite video, as we speak, Chinese Army is invading India on multiple fronts without much resistance on the ground.

I just spoke to the Prime Minister of India, Dr. MMS. He is a scholar and my friend. I very much admire his leadership. My call to President Hu is ignored. Therefore, as your Elected President, and the power vested in me, I have ordered the complete mobilization of our world-wide military assets against the Chinese naked aggression at the northern borders of India. I am determined to protect the Peace in the World, and avoid another World War in this early new Century.

Our Seventh Fleet will reach the Bay of Bengal very soon, and the nuclear armed submarines will line up in the China Sea along the International Waters.

Our beloved military Boys and Girls WILL invade and OCCUPY Shanghai immediately. Unless the Chinese army withdraws unconditionally.

God Bless them... God Bless you and the United States of America."

Yarukkaha Azhuvan Yamaka? For the hapless people of India (about one billion) who are trapped inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty... because of Tradition and Belief in God.

Dear Y,

If BHO, his advisors and his generals have learnt their lessons from the past - vietnam, afghanistan, iraq, libya, and may be syria also by March 2012, BHO will stop with platitudes and homilies about world peace and stability, good neighbourly relations and what not and lament that the world is likely to witness a world war, which is very unfortunate. US may prod Pak to be a double-headed nail, hitting at both C and I and may be lured by the vision of an enlarged P at the cost of I with the whole of Kashmir to itself; US will be only too happy to supply the military hardware and some software as also the financial aid to help P purchase all those! fyi, India is still dependent on US software for much of its very latest armaments and US has not given complete know-how even now and for control our defence forces - A,N, and AF - still depend on instructions from US via satellite! (I read this some time ago in a defence expert's article - but can't locate it now.)

The above is a more probable scenario, imo.

LBNL, astrology says China will have to emerge as the unopposable military super power in the world by 2025 or so; India enters its "maaraka dasa" at around that time as per the Independence horoscope. Conclusions can be drawn, I suppose.

 

[sangom]

Re post # 150 and 152.

I feel India's inadequecy stemmed from a lack of belonging. We were so busy dividing ourselves in the name of caste that the world simply went ahead in a super-jet ahead of us. Anyone came and invaded. There was no unity.

Now that Shringeri Mutt has taken the first step to get rid of birth-based divisions i hope everyone can look forward to true development and inclusiveness. More importantly, a sense of belonging. With real development to follow. Can't tell you how thrilled i am to read the news of an NB joining Shringeri Mutt....my head suddenly feels so light up in the air...

Now i truly hope India will put aside divisive caste tendencies, get rid of reservations everywhere, bring people together and make strides in the sciences, philosophy, art, music, etc..

Jai Hind

Happy,

It will be a long and arduous journey, imho, but Sringeri acharya has the credit of taking the first, clear and decisive step. I bow my head to him in respect. (I had all along had a good opinion about him - Shri Bharati Teertha - but it got somewhat sullied when I witnessed his 60th. vardhanti celebrations and the elaborate yagas connected with that. But now I am prepared to forget that small incident in the light of this really great step he has taken.

Let us wait & watch, a la Y, how the brahmin orthodoxy reacts!

 

[suraju06]

Ref. Yamaka's post #153:

In reply to your post I want to just quote Kunjuppu:

China will never want to control india. Who wants to take over 1.2 billlion people and all their associated problems, india is a mess to rule, and would be even more messy to rule. The Chinese are smart, and so far, have hardly made any mistake in their geopolitical encounters.In the late 1970s, soon after the Vietnam usa war, china had a brief skirmish with Vietnam. And got its nose bloodied, as the PLA was no match for the battle hardened Vietnamese, who had just thrashed the most power country in the world.

and add this:

in !965 in Cho La when the PLA tested Indian Army's response, they got a taste of what would come in a serious war. They had to withdraw hastily beating a retreat.

and this from Nara:

My wishful thinking is those wielding state power will have a little more wisdom and a little less jingoistic patriotism. My wishful thinking is saner voices will guide the minds of those in decision making positions. My wishful thinking is mutually beneficial trade will trump avarice.

 

[suraju06]

Yarukkaha Azhuvan Yamaka? For the hapless people of India (about one billion) who are trapped inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty... because of Tradition and Belief in God.

No. Not for the people of India. But for the people of USA who are trapped inside the gates of Hell of material prosperity and a decaying civilization induced by excessive indulgence in pleasures that come with such material prosperity..........again with dwindling faith in God. Because Yamaka lives in that Hell.
Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

No. Not for the people of India. But for the people of USA who are trapped inside the gates of Hell of material prosperity and a decaying civilization induced by excessive indulgence in pleasures that come with such material prosperity..........again with dwindling faith in God. Because Yamaka lives in that Hell.
Cheers.

raju,

i would not write off usa under any circumstances.

that country, not only has a lot of resilience, but also an innovative spirit, surpassed by none, in this world.

the rise of china or BRIC is inevitable. that the usa can and should remain as the only superpower, was once when ussr died, inevitable, but there are new power centres coming up all over the world. and that too is inevitable.

this does not necessarily mean a decline of usa.

just like europe. after world war 2, when europe gave up its imperial ambitions, and focused on building a just social welfare society, it was such a success, that it attracted immigrants from all over the world. things may look bleak in europe of uk, but one does not see the millions of arabs, africans or south asians trekking back to the land of their ancestors with a one way ticket.

your post sounds pretty damning, but it is a reflection, i think, more of your dislike than based on any fact.

the usa or europe does not have the teeming millions of poverty stricken folks, like india, who are increasingly becoming restless. the usa does not have to deal with corruption the way india does. underneath it all, the average american is fundamentally one who is committed to the concept of equality. and practises it. can we india claim such?

raju, i am not tyring to paint usa a rosy picture, or speak meanly of india. all i am saying, is that the troubles of usa are comparative. the 'poor person' in america, still owns a car, fridge, washing machine dryer, ipod or android phone and has access to 3G internet. and eats bettter than his idian counterpart, though not necessarily more healthy.

 

[happyhindu]

Happy,

It will be a long and arduous journey, imho, but Sringeri acharya has the credit of taking the first, clear and decisive step. I bow my head to him in respect. (I had all along had a good opinion about him - Shri Bharati Teertha - but it got somewhat sullied when I witnessed his 60th. vardhanti celebrations and the elaborate yagas connected with that. But now I am prepared to forget that small incident in the light of this really great step he has taken.

Let us wait & watch, a la Y, how the brahmin orthodoxy reacts!

True sir, my head bows in pranams to his feet., for the mighty step he has taken. Despite all my ranting, never thought such a monumental step would happen in my lifetime actually. Really, this news has some of us stunned and thrilled. When the Shankaracharya himself has made the move, i don't think the brahmin orthodoxy will go against it. Now slowly i hope, over time, an inclusive dharma comes to the fore. Slowly, but surely, i feel it will happen...

My mother always kept telling me not to talk about the past, because it creates anger and prevents everyone from progressing forward. She always discouraged (and has tried her best to prevent) me (also) from digging up stuff and putting out info for public consumption. She always said time has a way of taking care of things, so don't say anything 'negative' no matter how true it is, and leave it to God and Time. How true her words turned out.

Now i don't want to talk about slavery or archive details of the past. Now something inside tells me "look forward to a better future, let go of the past...". Am glad these changes are taking place in our lifetime. Koti Pranams to Sringeri Shankaracharya again and again and again...

Ardous journey it will be, but the first step has been taken...

 

[suraju06]

Now that Shringeri Mutt has taken the first step to get rid of birth-based divisions i hope everyone can look forward to true development and inclusiveness. More importantly, a sense of belonging. With real development to follow. Can't tell you how thrilled i am to read the news of an NB joining Shringeri Mutt....my head suddenly feels so light up in the air...Now i truly hope India will put aside divisive caste tendencies, get rid of reservations everywhere, bring people together and make strides in the sciences, philosophy, art, music, etc..Jai Hind ……..

It will be a long and arduous journey, imho, but Sringeri acharya has the credit of taking the first, clear and decisive step. I bow my head to him in respect. (I had all along had a good opinion about him - Shri Bharati Teertha - but it got somewhat sullied when I witnessed his 60th. vardhanti celebrations and the elaborate yagas connected with that. But now I am prepared to forget that small incident in the light of this really great step he has taken!

Those who are euphoric and are trying to make this an earth shaking event have very poor sense of proportion and awareness of reality. Please read this:
I keep visiting my village in the remote southern district of Tamilnadu as often as I can for many reasons. Important reasons are: 1. I still have my old childhood friends living there. 2. I have a special respect and attachment (bhakti) for the village temple of Sri Krishna as it is before the deity in that temple that myself and my ancestors for several generations have done prapatti and where I have pleaded for mercy and help in extremely difficult situations in life. 3. The vast expanse of paddy fields, the river (where I learned my lessons in swimming from my father), the Aattu manthai where we used to play, the single hall Board Elementary School where I studied upto 5[SUP]th[/SUP] class, all have a special place in my life and I cherish those memories. 4. My ancestral properties including a house are there.

Recently I had been to my village. I found that the attitude of all the middle castes has not at all changed and that the atrocities against dalits are still a continuing story. The two tumbler system, the exploitation, the untouchability, the violence, the denial of basic rights—everything-just the same as it was 50 years back. Despite the buses plying on the road through the village, the dish antennas on top of many roofs, the electricity, the street lights, the village school having become a secondary school (classes upto 10[SUP]th[/SUP]), the motor bikes parked before many houses, the many tractors and other farm equipments clogging the narrow streets etc., attitudes of people towards dalits remains unchanged. They still live in a separate colony with bigger houses and material possessions comparable to others. But treatment and attitude remains unchanged. Who is going to change this?

Our friends here know only brahmins and their mutts and the head of those mutts. It is rather their obsession. They think if these brahmins change, the mutts change and the mutt heads change every thing will be suddenly alright-like waving a magic wand and saying choo manthra kaali choo. There is no use changing brahmins or their mutts and mutt heads. They are small fry. They are not known outside their community which is just 3% of the population. For instance the event that is projected here as an earth shaking event is not known to any one in my neighbourhood or office(Bs as well NBs). For them it is a non-event. Kani getting her bail and Raja not applying for bail are far more important news for them. This is why I am saying we are barking up the wrong tree for change. Leave alone the brahmins and focus on other casteists. No one in the society looks up to brahmins for any guidance these days. They are just ignored. For some, they are just non-existent. So my dear arm-chair revolutionaries, please get out of your pet prejudices and understand the true dimensions of the problem. If you do that you will be uncomfortable explaining your euphoria on the Sringeri acharya’s step.

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear raju,

You are 100% correct and your points are well taken.

I think, what the reform group here and hopefully outside hope to achieve, is, to give a lead. A leadership, that everyone before God is equal, and should be treated as equal, before man too.

With the mutts so far maintaining an ignoble silence, over the treatment of dalits, perhaps the mid castes have displayed a laissez faire attitude, towards both the Brahmins and the dalits. Towards the Brahmins, the mid caste have no love, as memories are deep of the secondary social status allotted to them, and today, both are competitors for the economic pie.

In fact the middle castes have ruthless exploited their numerical advantage, to deny even poor Brahmins of any benefits from the public coffers. This has been documented and wailed countless times, here and everywhere a tambram has a chance to plaint.

Today the social equalization of the the middle castes, has resulted in a tamil culture where Brahmins are players, but not dominant players. Take any field, we are still there, and probably more in numbers than our population warrants, but we do not the overwhelming influence like yester years.

As a result, our ability to influence has waned. The last power brokers are the mutts. Maybe, there is some vision, realizing, if not from a ‘do the right thing ‘ viewpoint, a fear that the dalits or 30% of tamil population, will forsake their nominal homage to Hinduism even though laterally through ammans and madasamis, in favour or Christ or allah. As happened in kerala over a 100 years ago.

I don’t know. What sringeri did is long overdue. It is welcome. Now comes the bigger battle, of changing the mindsets of the middle castes. That may be a bigger battle, but tambrams, we cannot wash away our hands. We are after all the architects of the varna systems. Aren’t we?

A good post raju. Best wishes!

 

[suraju06]

raju,

i would not write off usa under any circumstances.

that country, not only has a lot of resilience, but also an innovative spirit, surpassed by none, in this world.

the rise of china or BRIC is inevitable. that the usa can and should remain as the only superpower, was once when ussr died, inevitable, but there are new power centres coming up all over the world. and that too is inevitable.

this does not necessarily mean a decline of usa.

just like europe. after world war 2, when europe gave up its imperial ambitions, and focused on building a just social welfare society, it was such a success, that it attracted immigrants from all over the world. things may look bleak in europe of uk, but one does not see the millions of arabs, africans or south asians trekking back to the land of their ancestors with a one way ticket.

your post sounds pretty damning, but it is a reflection, i think, more of your dislike than based on any fact.

the usa or europe does not have the teeming millions of poverty stricken folks, like india, who are increasingly becoming restless. the usa does not have to deal with corruption the way india does. underneath it all, the average american is fundamentally one who is committed to the concept of equality. and practises it. can we india claim such?

raju, i am not tyring to paint usa a rosy picture, or speak meanly of india. all i am saying, is that the troubles of usa are comparative. the 'poor person' in america, still owns a car, fridge, washing machine dryer, ipod or android phone and has access to 3G internet. and eats bettter than his idian counterpart, though not necessarily more healthy.

Kunjuppu,

the indexes you use for measuring/determining a country's/people's greatness are quite different from what I consider relevant. I have only this to say.

Cheers.

 

[sravna]

raju,

i would not write off usa under any circumstances.

that country, not only has a lot of resilience, but also an innovative spirit, surpassed by none, in this world.

the rise of china or BRIC is inevitable. that the usa can and should remain as the only superpower, was once when ussr died, inevitable, but there are new power centres coming up all over the world. and that too is inevitable.

this does not necessarily mean a decline of usa.

just like europe. after world war 2, when europe gave up its imperial ambitions, and focused on building a just social welfare society, it was such a success, that it attracted immigrants from all over the world. things may look bleak in europe of uk, but one does not see the millions of arabs, africans or south asians trekking back to the land of their ancestors with a one way ticket.

your post sounds pretty damning, but it is a reflection, i think, more of your dislike than based on any fact.

the usa or europe does not have the teeming millions of poverty stricken folks, like india, who are increasingly becoming restless. the usa does not have to deal with corruption the way india does. underneath it all, the average american is fundamentally one who is committed to the concept of equality. and practises it. can we india claim such?

raju, i am not tyring to paint usa a rosy picture, or speak meanly of india. all i am saying, is that the troubles of usa are comparative. the 'poor person' in america, still owns a car, fridge, washing machine dryer, ipod or android phone and has access to 3G internet. and eats bettter than his idian counterpart, though not necessarily more healthy.

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Contrary to what you think, USA is a country that is well and truly declining in power and status. I think you cannot cite a specific reason for this other than its overzealousness in protecting its own interests, more often than not in a way detrimental to others. It is one of the most selfish country if not the most in the history of mankind. If there is one country that is close to automating the protection of its interests it would be USA. It is simply unconcerned about the rest of the world never mind all the high sounding talks in its self appointed role as a global police.

I think resilience would not work now. I would say that USA is a good example of how can country cannot maintain its preeminence for long by might alone. You need to be right to maintain that status.

 

[Yamaka]

No. Not for the people of India. But for the people of USA who are trapped inside the gates of Hell of material prosperity and a decaying civilization induced by excessive indulgence in pleasures that come with such material prosperity..........again with dwindling faith in God. Because Yamaka lives in that Hell.
Cheers.

Dear Raju:

Yes, there are about 16% of Americans considered poor making less than $24000 for a family of 4. We are worried about them, and Yamaka cries for them too.

America - the Newest Civilization on Earth - is a land of Immigrants for Immigrants built by the sweat and tears of ALL Immigrants. They EARNED it by hard work and imagination and with some luck.

For you and others, "material prosperity" is a dirty word.. Fine, that provides the wholesome life to most other people.

Yes, there is dwindling faith in the non-existent God, for most Americans are Pragmatists and they are all REALISTS.

The Hell you are talking about is a propaganda by the Sour Grapes, so say the millions of wide-eyed aspirants who wait for a visa outside the US Embassies all over the world everyday.

More later...

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

Contrary to what you think, USA is a country that is well and truly declining in power and status. I think you cannot cite a specific reason for this other than its overzealousness in protecting its own interests, more often than not in a way detrimental to others. It is one of the most selfish country if not the most in the history of mankind. If there is one country that is close to automating the protection of its interests it would be USA. It is simply unconcerned about the rest of the world never mind all the high sounding talks in its self appointed role as a global police.

I think resilience would not work now. I would say that USA is a good example of how can country cannot maintain its preeminence for long by might alone. You need to be right to maintain that status.

Dear Sravna and others:

America is the Dream Land for millions of people around the world who want to get a visa everyday. That was a place of barren mosquito-infested waste land a mere 250 years ago.

That land was transformed into a Paradise of Milton by the blood and sweat of ALL Immigrants. We built it for our children and grand children, as a testament to our love for humanity.

America is a Open Book - from her glorious achievement everyone can learn a lesson or two; and write all sorts of comments and criticisms. We welcome it.

Yes, America quickly became a matured economy eclipsing the Great Romans, Greeks, Italians, Germans and the English. For over 150 years, America ruled the world by her warmth and ingenuity.

Yes, we face some headwinds now.. we have accumulated bad habits. We are aware of it, and we know how to correct the course.

For we have the Hybrid Vigor built in our bloods. We know how to solve our problems and the world's problems.

We are Americans - a Name that will endure in History for a long long time..

Please visit America, if you can and see for yourself the great Majesty and Generosity of Americans!

As Mike Gorbechav - the former President of USSR - did before dissolving the mighty Soviet Empire!

Take care..

 

[Nara]

I want you to comment on the theme of my post 117, if you have time, please.

Sure Y, let me give it a shot.

Why were we WEAKER than others? Is the same thing happening now?

I am afraid still we are WEAKER than our neighbors like China! Why?

[...]

All this tells me that WE ARE still very WEAK or WEAKER than others, and most of us don't realize it..

[..]

I want our friends in India (Shiv, Raju, Guru, Praveen, Sarong, Subbudu Sir and others) articulate SOLUTIONS for our malady that's persistent for too long a time - about dozen centuries now.

Y, we are here shooting the breeze. Mostly, people don't understand the complexity of the problems and they have honed passing the buck and blaming others while not taking any responsibility into an art form. So, I would submit that looking for solutions here, with capital emphasis, is futile.

With this preamble,

India's weakness stemming from caste system and social divisions are being mitigated by the democratic political systems. Of course democracy and representative government is indeed messy, slow, and probably the worst form of government except (you know the rest of Churchill's quote). So, in the long run, I feel India's parliamentary democracy is its Ace in the hole and not having it is China's Achilles heel.

India's future depends on not aligning itself too closely with any of the major competitors like USA or China. The USA's new found love for India stems from its anxiety over rising China. It wishes to use India for its own geopolitical ends. India must resist the short-term goodies USA is offering to make India into its long term serf.

I also find it troubling that we assume China to be the enemy. This is not healthy. Even the 1961 war between China and India, the issues were not black and white. India miscalculated big time and behaved recklessly. China made its own share of mistakes of misunderstanding India's intentions.

When it comes to wishful thinking I rather wish the present-day and future leaders of both countries do not repeat these mistakes. If it comes to war, then I wish there are attempts to diffuse the situation, not escalate it, after all, we are wishing here, why wish for war?

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Re # 164 of SuRaju

Suraju, have no worries about the so-called 'middle castes'. Nobody in the younger generation is interested in casteism, so we just have to wait for the older generation to die off and take their prejudices with them to the grave.

In case some unusual younger generation ones involve in casteism, they better realise that their shelf-life is also limited. Its not going to take long for the 'lower castes' to turn against 'middle-castes'.

This is bound to happen when so-called 'lower castes' no longer sense 'spiritual imperialism'...when they no longer remain 'low' and are genuinely accepted as a social equal before God. As people sense a genuine acceptance from the brahmanical orthodoxy, over time, they are bound to feel empowered, and will eventually run down the casteist 'middle-castes'.

Regards

 

[happyhindu]

Re post # 165 of Kunjuppu sir,

Kunjuppu ji, we indians are very desensitised to poverty. Irrespective of caste, poverty does not seem to cut ice with us, bcoz scenes of poverty are witnessed from day one every single day...it is a part of our conditioning to ignore it.

Its shameful, but how many of us realise poverty is a sign of a depraved society created and/or maintained by WE ourselves..

Also sir, these so-called middle castes are merely tribal guys who made it to settlement areas, did their petty roles, and moved on to owning some land, thus becoming 'middle-castes'.

Strangely landed 'gentry' always made dubious claims of being kshatriyas and such crap (as an image to go with their new found status as land-owners).

To the landed ones, oppression of 'low-caste' serfs had to exist. It was a question of maintaning their means of survival and largess, thru land-ownership. Loss of land was loss of wealth and thus loss of image. Various laws and acts on land ownership changed the scenario.

Now (in a democracy) legally, and without the need for brahmanical validation (of kshatriyahood), an agricultural labourer could become a land-owner. This is quite a loss of social position for those who attest or validated kshatriyahood actually (in the varna feudalism scenario).

Anyways, it appears the middle-castes were not prepared for such loss of wealth. And obviously did their best to oppose land ownership acts.

Sometimes when wealth is lost, the only thing people hold on to is image. So we hear so many polemical tales of wealth loss and sighs over lost pride in land-ownership. What remains now is prejudice. This prejudice will eventually be gone. Its just a matter of Time.

I wud compare this situation with genomics. It was only in 1953 that watson-crick discovered the structure of DNA. Today we are into stem-cell treatments and advanced stuff. Within 50 years how quickly changes have come. Such is the effect of numerous people working enmasse on something. All just a matter of time.

The numerous voices against casteism was bound to result in some change.

The brahmanical mutts had 2 options with the change of time. One, fade into oblivion while remaining an image of spiritual oppression. Two, take a leadership role in heralding new changes, creating an inclusive dharma suitable with the times. Am glad Shringeri Mutt has chose the second option.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

I think when Sringeri matham allows a swamiji (pariah by birth, as reported), then more people from that community will come to know of that incident and, since this man is from a highly literate and mandatorily news-reading population, it will become widely known. The dalits will in course of time, feel empowered.

But I can tell suraju and others of his line of thinking, that the brahmin orthodoxy surrounding the Sringeri Acharya has still enough time and many weapons to use; for example, they can stop dalits from visiting the matham and the new entrant. Perhaps that, I think, is what will most probably happen.

Let us wait & watch!

 

[happyhindu]

I think when Sringeri matham allows a swamiji (pariah by birth, as reported), then more people from that community will come to know of that incident and, since this man is from a highly literate and mandatorily news-reading population, it will become widely known. The dalits will in course of time, feel empowered.

But I can tell suraju and others of his line of thinking, that the brahmin orthodoxy surrounding the Sringeri Acharya has still enough time and many weapons to use; for example, they can stop dalits from visiting the matham and the new entrant. Perhaps that, I think, is what will most probably happen.

Let us wait & watch!

I seriously hope not. If folks are sensible they will not oppose.

Considering how far into time we have come, its not wise to oppose progressiveness in a religion. In all likelihood, i guess, this is the last chance to make amends.

Who knows there may be people watching developments with keen interest also...like the native indians who seek international pressure to declare casteism as racism, as can be seen here and here.

Ofcourse one can regularise, and have strict rules of bathing, etc before visiting a mutt. But by no chance can anyone prohibit entry on the basis of caste/varna/birth alone. Anyone doing that would most probably digging their own grave in terms of social acceptance...

Hope everyone can look forward to the better side of things to come, instead of feeling rundown in any form...

 

[suraju06]

Yamaka in post #168:

America - the Newest Civilization on Earth - is a land of Immigrants for Immigrants built by the sweat and tears of ALL Immigrants. They EARNED it by hard work and imagination and with some luck.

Yes a civilization(if at all you can call it that ) which is founded on the Native Americans' blood splattered land and built stone by stone with the blood and sweat of men who were slaughtered in the various wars all over the world.

For you and others, "material prosperity" is a dirty word.. Fine, that provides the wholesome life to most other people.

Not material prosperity itself, but the indulgence in excesses that come with it. How sad that you are not able to understand what is said in plain English.

Yes, there is dwindling faith in the non-existent God, for most Americans are Pragmatists and they are all REALISTS.

Yes very true. Such 'realists' export evangelists and large funds for conversion to other countries in the "backward" Asian countries as an outcome of their realism or pragmatism.

The Hell you are talking about is a propaganda by the Sour Grapes, so say the millions of wide-eyed aspirants who wait for a visa outside the US Embassies all over the world everyday.

If you ask the so called wide eyed aspirants, they will also tell you what they intend to do. They are clear that they will make as much money as they can and get back to the paradise, their motherland at the earliest opportunity. Not only because of their love for their motherland but also because they are scared about the prospects of their children loosing their moorings and drifting in an alien culture.