Distortions in Indian History

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

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Nice Words

Do not compare yourself with anyone in the world . If you do you so, you are insulting yourself.
If you want your dreams to come true, do not oversleep.
The smallest good deed is better than the grandest intention.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

 

[happyhindu]

Some clips from the speech delivered by subramanyan swami in bangalore on 20 october 2011. He said a lot about corruption, 2G, money received as bribes by the politicians, but only those observations that are relevant to this thread are given below.

1. He went back to the history of India, 500 years ago...where we were called as the most honest country...People like Vasco Da Gama, Mark Twain who wrote that they have never seen more honest people than Indian Hindus...(HUGE & proud applause by the crowd)...people who never used to lock their homes while going on a vacation ...He said that India is now ranked 90th when it comes to honesty ...New Zealand holds the 1st rank ....I did not note the rankings of US & China properly ..I may be wrong ..but yeah...I think he said that they were somewhere around 19 & 78 respectively..

2. He went back to 1947 ...when India was not so corrupt...He said that it was the adoption of the Soviet Model, which was the biggest disaster ..and is responsible for all the corruption which is happening .

3. He then went on to explain the effect of corruption on national security ...because most ministers are blackmailed by terrorists in Pakistan...& how Chidambaram allowed selling of licenses for blacklisted companies ..(one of which was a front organization for the ISI )...He said that the court has reserved its orders ...to cancel all the licenses given by Chidambaram & Raja.

4. He explained the mutually exclusive classification of people by ancient Hindus - Knowledge, Weapons, Wealth, Land ....

"Raavan was a Brahmin...Karunanidhi didn't know this ...that's why he celebrated Ravan-lila ...I explained the facts to him..he stopped supporting Raavan ...but continued to abuse Rama ...when I challenged the Sethusamudram project by asking if Rama is an engineer ..which engineering college did he study etc.." ..he continued - "The next day he fell sick ...he was admitted to Ramachandra Medical Hospital".
"AT LEAST RAMA HAD AN MBBS DEGREE !!!"

5. He also talked about how Al-Qaeda has stated that "India is an incomplete chapter in Islamic history"..how they've Islamified Egypt & many other places ..but India still has A LOT of Hindus even after 800 years of muslim rule & 200 years of Christian rule.

6. He talked about the structure of history text books - 1 chapter for every mughal ...but only 1 paragraph on the Vijayanagar empire ??!!! With the mention that the history books have to be modified ...he concluded his talk.

Bharatkalyan97: A tribute to Dr. Swamy, record of a youth on Swami's talk in Bangalore

If Subramanyam Swami wants hinduism to flourish, and if he really cares for hinduism, ask him to wipe out age old varna discrimination, by allowing vedic education for everyone. Does he dare to take up the issue with orthodox brahmanical mutts?

Note to others - it is not a question of who is interested or not. It is a question of keeping alive an ideology of birth-based segregation, discrimination and casteism.

Another note - Unless hindutva idealogy learns to redefine itself, unless it drops birth-based discrimination, it is not going to find supporters among the vast majority of hindus.

 

[sarang]

Your misinterpretation and misunderstanding is appalling! We are ready to face 'true' history and not 'concocted/biased' history. Let the different versions get exposure and fight for validation.

Your choice of words 'you want a history eulogizing all that is Hindu as great, and all the rest, not so sublime' smacks of abhorrence for everything connected with 'hinduism' and brahmins. Who cares? I didn't say that.

When you announce "Hindus are ready to face truth; are the rest ready?", it is loud and clear that you want a history eulogizing all that is Hindu as great, and all the rest, not so sublime.

 

[sarang]

You must address your wish or aadesh to all chettiars, vanniyars, reddys, nairs, yadhavs, thevars, pulayars (recently pulayar mahasabha took the stage along with shankaracharya); what will you do with the christian nadars and naidus? Even the secular government will soon recognise christian and muslim castes, another nail in the coffin of caste eradication campaign.

You must ponder over why the shirdi saibaba (original saibaba's birth place and kutil) temple is having brahmin priests when the temple is managed by a non brahmin trust?

Who and where is this vast majority hindu society? There is a serious dichotomy between what is seen and what is understood.

Another note - Unless hindutva idealogy learns to redefine itself, unless it drops birth-based discrimination, it is not going to find supporters among the vast majority of hindus.

 

[kunjuppu]

i am really surprised at swami's drift towards extremist intolerance. recently he has gone on record saying that if 50% of the hindus banded together, they could achieve a hindu rajya!!

this coming from a man, who went to harvard, married a parsi, whose one daughter is married to a muslim (ex foreign secretary salman haidar son) and the other married to a lingayat (deve gowda son).

i am quite sure he will have a tough time sitting in the same table with his multi caste religious grandchildren, espousing hindutva

even harvard, sometimes, does not scratch the knowledge levels beyond a book degree.

i have always felt, had swamy stayed back to teach and research in harvard, he would have been a top notch nobel qualifying economist, instead of his current status as a third rate politicians from the backwaters of tamil nadu, with no following.

for those who think, swami is the raison d'etre of 2G scam being exposed, think again. there are deeper waters in the ponds of new delhi which caused this, and not a little குட்டை from southern tamil nadu.

this is my take on swami and his pronouncements.

 

[zebra16]

and the other married to a lingayat (deve gowda son).

Incorrect statement. Deve Gowda is a vokkaliga: Indian Premier's Roots May Be Clue to His Course - New York Times

 

[kunjuppu]

What anger? Where is anger. We are only talking history, trying to understand a version of history which is hidden from the public and not taught to school students and jealously kept out by ICHR, NCERT etc. Even communal riots are not reported correctly. In a recent interview, narendra modi requested the young interviewer to do him and the nation a favour - he gave a list of five major riots (4 during congress rule and 1 during bjp rule) and asked him to prepare a comparison report - cause, damage to life and property, action taken during and after the riots etc.. The reporter beat a hasty retreat and and started repeating the same questions.

Hindus are ready to face truth; are the rest ready?

Cool down take a siesta with a soothing drink. Don't start personal accusations!

sarang,

your posts, to me, appears to be brimming with anger, that history has done us hindus wrong.

sir, if you think, i am wrong in my reading of your posts, i concede my mistake. personally, i do not feel the need to cool, as i think, no one has any indignations aroused at absurdities, which is what i think your posts appear to be.

as you very well know, there is no balance in your posts. it appears to me, that they are all one sided version of a victimised society.

but then, please remember that india has always been invaded from the north west, - kanishka, harsha vardhana - all were technically foreigners to bharat varsha.

the only difference, is that these folks soon assimilated and became part of our mosaic, though we dont even know that for sure, and we in 21st century would like to believe of a homogeneous harmonius india prior to islamic invasion.

mostly due to its uncompromising monotheism and revulsion of images, islam maintained its pan national identity, much to the chagrin of today's world, where today's followerrs of the prophet, saddle just about every country in the world, and provide a potential quisling army and always the source of suspicion.

if you think about it, the british invasion was a blessing for the hindus, for, for the first time in 800 years or so, hindus could play a role in governance, albeit in a secondary role.

i dont know if many are aware, that at the time of british withdrawal, there was an active movement within the muslim community, that the british hand over the power back to the muslims, from whom they usurped power. when you visit places like agra, the erstwhile seat of mughal power, i met a guide, a muslim, whose interpretation of history would have horrified you, in that , to him, the british never existed. only the mughals and islamic power. not much unlike sarang, to whom, real history stopped happening with ghazni invasion.

the fact and truth is everyone is wrong. with the span of time, to many of us, the immediate hurt and arrogance experienced by the indians, does not have immediacy anymore. today's youth ape the british more, than be in contempt of them. this is because the world has changed. the england of today is a democratic multicultural society, far removed from the class driven empire driven society prior to 1947. there are more indians in england today, willing immigrants, than there were ever the number of englishmen in india. ever.

for those of us, who have moved on with the times, we treat history, as something to take note of, but irrelevant to today's world - this world of technology, instant world wide communication, ever shrinking world and above all, the need to accommodate and work with folks of all nationalities, religions and ethnic background. how can we work with them, without rancour and with honesty, if we have a hidden agenda? a suspicion that these are out to 'do us'?

what happens if some of us are in a swami situation in the future? our daughter wants to marry out of caste or religion? should we outright reject it and cast her away? or swallow all our erstwhile vile words and start ultimately believing in the universality of the brotherhood of the human kind.

i wish to assure, that none of us want to give up our way of life, faith or food. but, the way to preserve and propate it, is to be an enthusiastic proponent and popularize it. not keep it within covers, and hope the rest of the unwanted world will go away. they simple wont, and will continue knocking at our doors, till we open up, or they will crash it down. just like many tambrams are doing themselves, with one way ticket to mid east, australia, uk or usa or brazil

peace.

 

[Nara]

You must address your wish or aadesh to all chettiars, vanniyars, reddys, nairs, yadhavs, thevars, pulayars (recently pulayar mahasabha took the stage along with shankaracharya); what will you do with the christian nadars and naidus? Even the secular government will soon recognise christian and muslim castes, another nail in the coffin of caste eradication campaign.
.

Dear brother sarang, I thought you were defending Hinduism on behalf of all Hindus, but now it sees you want to separate these chettiars, vanniyars, et al leaving them to fend for themselves. Don't they belong to the same Hinduism like you do, or do you think you are separate from them?

I am concerned about politicizing school curriculum. I think it was BJP who tried to do this first, is this not correct?

Here in the land of the free and home of the brave, the good ol U.S. of A, the situation is even worse. The Texas board of education, because of their size, decides textbooks not just for their state, but de facto, whatever they decide is what will be sold to many other states. They are so stupid, shall we say exceptionally stupid, they want to determine science curriculum based on political considerations. They are so stupid that a few months back they banned all the books of a Children's book author Bill Martin because they mistook him for another author with the same name who wrote a book called Ethical Marxism.

Banning controversial books is bad enough, but to ban books without even realizing what they are banning must be exceptional indeed. Is this what you want for India, politicians deciding what must be taught in schools?

I am not giving any advice to you dear brother, just asking some questions and request your kind answers.

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Sarang, why did you leave out Naidus and Naickers from this list? From Vaiko to Vijaikanth to EVR they are the most visible politicians in the firmament of Tamilnadu politics.

 

[kunjuppu]

Incorrect statement. Deve Gowda is a vokkaliga: Indian Premier's Roots May Be Clue to His Course - New York Times

thank you narayan. i am very happy that you have read my post for veracity every once in a while, i am not inclined to verify a claim. to be honest, this was one, and it gives me great pleasure to have you not only read, but verify, and point out the error.

i am remiss of good research here

but in the big picture of things re swami and his daughter, does it really matter, a vokkaliga or lingayat. apart from poking a hole in my note thank you all the same. you are indeed very knowledgeable and kind.

 

[Yamaka]

Reference Sangom's post #120:



And to some others, ours was and is the most miserable,horrible,pathetic and weak country/civilization in the world where people worship a million gods, where people worship idols which 'represent' sexual act and sexual organs, where people believe in Avatars of God unlike their enlightened counter parts in other parts of the world eagerly waiting for the coming of the 'good shepherd', where people believe in the paapa and punya unlike the great people elsewhere who believe in the day of judgment (after your death you have to wait indefinitely in the purgatory untill that golden day)or those who believe in getting rewards in the n-th heaven which includes frolicking with and enjoying the hundreds of virgins(note- only virgins with their hymen in tact and not the 'experienced' ones) provided by God Himself.And what more, for these 'some others', the fact that this is the only civilization which survived the swords of powerful subjugators/marauding scoundrels and survived the onslaught for hundreds of years, is some thing to be mocked at and ridiculed. If any one says that there is something in this civilization which is unique, which deserves emulation these 'some others' will say that they need only to be 'straightened'.

Cheers.

I am continuing my hypothesis from the post #117 here -

Hypothesis: Indians have been WEAKER and DIVIDED within than the invaders in the past 12 centuries and the state of affairs still continuing unfortunately.

Place: Inside the DARPA Labs of the US Military.

New Information: Scientists found out massive deposits of oil/gas and rare minerals along the border between India and China from Ladakh to Assam.

Person in the Room: A Scientist of Chinese American origin.

He mentions this rare and sensitive information to some of his close friends in the Chinese community very casually, innocently.

The matter reaches the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party.

Within 24 hours, Wen and Hu command the Red Army to seize all the land about 100 miles deep inside India from Ladakh to Assam at all costs w/o using nuclear bombs.

Indians are meeting at the Parliament; there is commotion & riot at the wells of the Chamber; meetings adjourned for weeks! They blame the Americans for all the mischief.

Chinese killed about 50,000 people and are willing to kill more to protect the lands they have grabbed so far. They are ruthless and determined to extract all the oil/gas and the rare minerals along the confiscated land from India.

Indians are invoking their Supreme Gods with their Spirituality for Divine Intervention....Poojas, prayers and bhajans touch the high heavens..but the non-existent Gods don't hear a thing.. alas! The anger is everywhere in the air... charges and counter charges fly around in all corners of India.....

Arun Shouri, Sub Swamy and other Hindutva veterans said, "We know this - Had we enforced Hindutva very early on since 1947, this American adventurism could have been averted at the bud... we told you so..he..he..ha..ha"

Yamaka, the Godless Man is listening to AR Rahman's tune and thinking aloud... mumbling "The History Repeats...Indians are weak and internally very divided"

What else is new here!

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

Reference Kunjuppu's post #116:
I should remember to quote this gem when some one talks eloquently about brahminism, brahmin's atrocities, brahmin conspiracy etc., or when some one eulogises that great fraud EVR.

Cheers.

When growing up in India till 1979, I have been following four leaders in Tamil Nadu - Paramount Leader Kamaraj, Erode Venkata Ramasamy, C Rajagopalacharyar and CN Annadurai.

These four captured my imagination as veterans of their own ideology in Public Service.

Rajaji hugged CNA in 1967 to defeat Kamaraj in Assembly Elections, whereby Congress losts its grip in TN politics, Rajaji and Brahmins started wandering in the political wilderness.

CN Annadurai and his Thambis changed the political destiny of TN forever!

And EVR got the following citation from UNESCO -

The citation awarded by the UNESCO described Periyar as "the prophet of the new age, the Socrates of South East Asia, father of social reform movement and arch enemy of ignorance, superstitions, meaningless customs and base manners".[SUP][17]

So much is the history of Tamil Nadu politics... and the bile in the mouths of some brahmins around here!


[/SUP]

 

[kunjuppu]

Y,

re #137,

when history is written 100 years from now only periyar will be quoted as someone worthwhile to come out of tamil nadu.

no matter how much the tambrams hate him here. many like me, only admire him, and comfortably discard his crude epithets. i have no problems with that

 

[zebra16]

but in the big picture of things re swami and his daughter, does it really matter, a vokkaliga or lingayat. apart from poking a hole in my note

It may not mean much to you or me, but to a lot of kannadigas, it does matter.

 

[kunjuppu]

It may not mean much to you or me, but to a lot of kannadigas, it does matter.

i agree with you 100%. unfortunately the poison of casteism, is as bad between the vokkaligas and lingayats - who are both hindus. can you imagine the ferocity, already heavy duty, if they had been different religions. blood will be flowing in bangalore every day

btw i was commenting in the context of here this forum, where i feel, it should not matter vis a visa swami. his effort at inclusive hinduism, should be more - an inclusive indianism. otherwise, india is in for a bloody civil war. it is easy to kill these days. and mass killings are even easier. you dont even need 10 people to set off bombs to kill a million...technology!!

that alone should put the fear of the evil in us.

 

[Nara]

....
And EVR got the following citation from UNESCO -

Y,
when history is written 100 years from now only periyar will be quoted as someone worthwhile to come out of tamil nadu.

K and Y, I appreciate your comments on EVR periyar. Needless to say, I am an admirer of EVR for he was an iconoclast par excellence, a fierce revolutionary and a fearless social reformer. He reminded those long oppressed that they have an innate dignity just as much as anybody else and he/she deserves as much respect as anyone else.

However, I fully realize he was a controversial public figure and there will be biting criticism of his ideas. If it is on what he stood for, that would be just fine. But, when harsh personal insults like "fraud" is thrown around, one expects reasoned arguments based on incontrovertible facts, such as his written words or recorded spoken words. Instead, what we get are vague and unsubstantiated claims like some speech given by him, or his followers, in an unspecified place and an unspecified time.

It is evident that EVR will remain evil incarnate for almost all Brahmins. But, I like to appeal to the neutral and critical-thinking members of the forum to see such emotional outbursts as calling EVR a fraud without offering any argument based on facts for what it is. Think about this, suppose somebody makes a statement that Paramacharya was a fraud and gives acharya's own written words published in the Kamakoti.org site as evidence, imagine what the reaction would be. Why is the use of this F word against EVR any different? Seeing it as different without any solid evidence can and may be construed as a predisposition, aka prejudice.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

You must address your wish or aadesh to all chettiars, vanniyars, reddys, nairs, yadhavs, thevars, pulayars (recently pulayar mahasabha took the stage along with shankaracharya); what will you do with the christian nadars and naidus? Even the secular government will soon recognise christian and muslim castes, another nail in the coffin of caste eradication campaign.

Dear brother sarang, one more comment if you please.

Your statement above is indicative of why Varna system can never amount to anything more than a perniciously hierarchical jAti system promoting anti-social sentiment.

In this very forum we have seen the brahmins abandoning the other jAtis at the first sign of criticism of jAti system. The solidarity is only to the in-group, the boundary for which changes as the occasion changes. If the argument is about Hinduism vis a vis other religions, then all jAtis are welcomed into the group. If it is criticism of untouchability and the atrocious crimes committed against dalits, then the middle and upper caste NBs are left to fend for themselves, the Bs want to be left alone as though they have no responsibility whatever.

If it is about namam on elephants it is the stupid Iyengars, Iyers are broadminded. If it is oduvar being kept away then it is these Sanksrit centric Tamil hating Iyers to be blamed, Iyengars are blameless.

You get the picture...

One of the fundamental flaws of the varna/jAti system is, it simply cannot exist in a mutually respectful way, in a kind of symbiotic relationship. The primary allegiance is to jAti, not community. It can exist only in an oppressive hierarchical system, each layer jealously guarding their layer against those below them.

Such a system is antisocial, and dear brother, your statement above proves it.

For more on this please see Babasaheb Ambedar's Annihilation of Caste here. A must read for anyone interested in critical thinking of these issues.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

You must address your wish or aadesh to all chettiars, vanniyars, reddys, nairs, yadhavs, thevars, pulayars (recently pulayar mahasabha took the stage along with shankaracharya); what will you do with the christian nadars and naidus? Even the secular government will soon recognise christian and muslim castes, another nail in the coffin of caste eradication campaign.

Lets get some education on the ones you mention..

Chettiars
The term Chetty is a title used across several communities. If you are referring to the Nagarathars, please be reminded of the Nakara guild. There is no evidence to show that these were a caste in the medieval period. Instead we have people as part of a trade guild called Nakara or Nagarathar (simply meaning, town dwellers). The Nakara guild was a branch of the Ayyavole guild. Please remember the claim of being vaishyas, starting off customs like karadiyan nombu, producing caste puranas and literature, all date to the late-colonial period.

Vanniyars
These make very tall claims like this - Vanniyakula Kshatriyas (Pallava,Chera,Chola) History part1.flv - YouTube Various groups have been merceneries for various armies, or have got absorbed into victorious armies. Simply put, just tribal guys fighting for land and resources. How these vannis claim to be a caste i dunno, especially if they claim to be villavan (billavas).

Reddys
No such caste called 'reddy' existed in the medival period. What we had was the Rashtrakuta kingdom. IMO the 'Reddys' were associated with the Rathakaras (chariot-builders and charioteers) who got downgraded in the Baudhayana Smriti into Shudras. Little wonder that reddys have been farmers for the longest time, and no different from the palli famers. The details of peasantization (sanskritisation) process is uncomfortable to many.

These days they claim to have descended from a reddy kingdom (as though all of them descended from the ruling elite). Compare these to current claims of 'nadars'. The channars were commoners, and the 'nadans' were their army elite / rulers. Yet the commoners-channars started claiming to be 'nadars' as though they too descended from the nadan elite.

Nairs
There is no evidence these existed as a caste in the medieval period. There is no evidence that the early (sangam) period cheramans and nayara-khandas belonged to any caste called 'Nairs'. Quite obviously various groups crytallised as 'Nairs' over time.

Socially it is well understood that plenty of people claimed to be nairs in the colonial period, including farmers, dhobis (washermen), etc. This situation is an exact replica of the events in Andhra areas, where practically every other caste (occupation group) and tribe took on the 'Naidu' title (there are atleast 25 different castes and tribes who use the title 'Naidu' today).

Yadavs
I suppose you mean konars, gollas, and kurubas (??). You must be aware the idaiyars had a very low position in the chola domains. Anyways, there were far too many diverse cattle-herding groups and they are not homogenous. The people and their practices are diverse. There is no evidence that the konars / gollas / kurubas were a 'caste' in the medival times.

Thevars
I suppose you mean vellalars and kallars (??). I have already mentioned about vellalars from velams in the Aarakshan thread. Kallars are far too diverse and i wonder why various farming groups claim to be 'kallars' (if not for a better social position). Agamudaiyars were indoor palace servents in the vijayanagar period. There is no evidence of any connection between the velirs, and the vast myriad peoples who claim to be vellalars today. Yet again, peasantization details will turn out to be uncomfortable to many.

Pulayars
Of all the people mentioned here, i think, these are the 'real' people. IMO these are the actual descendents of pulastya, the ones who got removed from their brahmin position and were throughly ostracised by the new-brahmaKshatras (that is, the combine of brahmins and those who were absorbed into the varna scheme as 'Kshatriyas'. This combine was, i suppose, the ones who applied the manvantara canard to a social situation). I hope there are genetic tests on present-day Pulayars, to find if their Y-chr points to the presence of common founding ancestors. But ofcourse considering every social group experienced geneinflow, it could get quite tricky.

Anyways, well you see Sarang, none of these infact are a 'caste' group in terms of a homogeneous culture. None even professed the same occupation. Much less, no one depends on Varna.

The unfortunate point for everyone who seek caste pride is that, ancient man thrived on just 2 main sources of sustenence -- hunting and fishing. The more we go back in time, the more we find present-day 'upper-castes' going down to 'lower castes', until we reach tribes.

Ofcourse tracing the origins of tribes is to me impossible. But the tribe-caste contiuum is undeniable. Now those who claim to have descended from rishis and kings, have a huge problem with such a situation. They simply cannot imagine being compared to tribes. Some go to the extent of twisting results gotten from genetic tests.

Fact is, all ancient kingdoms were either hunter-gatherers or fishing tribes. The kurus, pandavas from vyasa makes them fisherman descendents (from satyavati). Krishna with a conch obviously means a coastal kingdom thriving on fishing (since coastal trade was non-existent 5000 years back). The inland forest-dwelling tribes were numerous.

What we have in mahabharat is actually the early state-formation period propelled by performance of ashvamedha (after the creation of brahmanas (texts)) to announce land conquest, and the organisation of society into the chaturvarna scheme.

Since caste is generally taken to mean "'occupational group", this is bound to change. We have new castes (occupation groups) like engineers, actors, lawyers, politicians, etc. Infact 'caste' of various people in the past too had always been changing. Now those who want to hold on to "varna-by-birth" have a problem on their hands.

Those who profess hindutva ideaology mislead people by claiming india had a glorious past, that all varnas lived in peace, that varnas were based on gunas (the worst of all canard), that everyone must oppose secularism, and so on.

So Subramanyam Swami and everyone who professes hindutva ideology better redefine hindutva or you are never going to get support from the vast majority of hindus.

You must ponder over why the shirdi saibaba (original saibaba's birth place and kutil) temple is having brahmin priests when the temple is managed by a non brahmin trust?

No surprise. Temples everwhere got taken over by 'brahmins'.

Who and where is this vast majority hindu society? There is a serious dichotomy between what is seen and what is understood.

The vast majority are the non-brahmins to whom hindutva ideology will never make sense.

 

[sarang]

History text book corrections by the west bengal government to whitewash ***

Circular relating to textbooks for class IX. Dated 28 April, 1989, it is issued by the West Bengal Secondary Board. It is in Bengali, and carries the number "Syl/89/1".

"All the West Bengal Government recognised secondary school Headmasters are being informed," it begins, "that in History textbooks recommended by this Board for Class IX the following amendments to the chapter on the medieval period have been decided after due discussions and review by experts." "

"The authors and publishers of Class IX History textbooks," it continues, "are being requested to incorporate the amendments if books published by them have theseaushuddho [impurities, errors] in all subsequent editions, and paste a corrigendum in books which have already been published. A copy of the book with the corrigendum should be deposited with the Syllabus Office (74, Rafi Ahmed Kidwai Road, Calcutta -- 16)." Signed, "....Chattopadhyaya, Secretary."

The accompanying pages contain two columns: aushuddho -- impurity, or error -- and shuddho. One has just to glance through the changes to see the objective the progressives are trying to achieve through their "objective", "rational" approach to the writing of history. Here are some of the changes.

Book: Bharat Katha, prepared by the Burdwan Education Society, Teachers Enterprise, published by Sukhomoy Das....
Page 140: Aushuddho -- "In Sindhudesh the Arabs did not describe Hindus as Kafir. They had banned cowslaughter."
Shuddho -- "Delete, 'They had banned cow-slaughter'."
Page 141: Aushuddho -- "Fourthly, using force to destroy Hindu temples was also an expression of aggression. Fifthly, forcibly marrying Hindu women and converting them to Islam before marriage was another way to propagate the fundamentalism of the ulema."
Shuddho : though the column reproduces the sentences only from "Fourthly....", the Board directs that the entire matter from "Secondly.... to ulema" be deleted.
Page 141: Aushuddho -- The logical, philosophical, materialist Mutazilla disappeared. On the one hand, the fundamentalist thinking based on the Quran and the Hadis...."
Shuddho -- "Delete, 'On the one hand, the fundamentalist thinking based on the Quran and the Hadis'...."

to be continued . . .

 

[sangom]

One of the fundamental flaws of the varna/jAti system is, it simply cannot exist in a mutually respectful way, in a kind of symbiotic relationship. The primary allegiance is to jAti, not community. It can exist only in an oppressive hierarchical system, each layer jealously guarding their layer against those below them.

Dear Shri Nara,

May I say, with reference to the high-lighted portion above, each layer or tier trying to catch up with the higher tiers in the jati status, and at the same time putting down those tiers which are considered to be below itself?

 

[suraju06]

Yamaka's post #136:

I am continuing my hypothesis from the post #117 here -
Hypothesis: Indians have been WEAKER and DIVIDED within than the invaders in the past 12 centuries and the state of affairs still continuing unfortunately.
Place: Inside the DARPA Labs of the US Military.
New Information: Scientists found out massive deposits of oil/gas and rare minerals along the border between India and China from Ladakh to Assam.
Person in the Room: A Scientist of Chinese American origin.
He mentions this rare and sensitive information to some of his close friends in the Chinese community very casually, innocently. The matter reaches the Central Committee of the Chinese Communist Party.
Within 24 hours, Wen and Hu command the Red Army to seize all the land about 100 miles deep inside India from Ladakh to Assam at all costs w/o using nuclear bombs. Indians are meeting at the Parliament; there is commotion & riot at the wells of the Chamber; meetings adjourned for weeks! They blame the Americans for all the mischief. Chinese killed about 50,000 people and are willing to kill more to protect the lands they have grabbed so far. They are ruthless and determined to extract all the oil/gas and the rare minerals along the confiscated land from India.Indians are invoking their Supreme Gods with their Spirituality for Divine Intervention....Poojas, prayers and bhajans touch the high heavens..but the non-existent Gods don't hear a thing.. alas! The anger is everywhere in the air... charges and counter charges fly around in all corners of India.....Arun Shouri, Sub Swamy and other Hindutva veterans said, "We know this - Had we enforced Hindutva very early on since 1947, this American adventurism could have been averted at the bud... we told you so..he..he..ha..ha" Yamaka, the Godless Man is listening to AR Rahman's tune and thinking aloud... mumbling "The History Repeats...Indians are weak and internally very divided"
What else is new here!

Yamaka that was a awfully miserable wishful thinking on your part. For some people when wishes become horses they are invariably taken on a trip of hallucination. While yours is a purely hypothetical scenario I am giving below a true incident that is well recorded. Intelligent and discerning people reading yours and mine posts will draw their appropriate conclusions:

Time: Some time in early 1970.
Place: New Delhi. The External Affairs Ministry Office in South Block. The PM's office.
Subject: The atrocities happening in East Pakistan-now called Bangladesh.
The proceedings: The PM is briefed on the goings on in East Pakistan(EP) by the the Chief of IB. and PM calls the External Affairs Ministry's key officials for a discussion. After initiating the discussion and after bouncing many ideas off the assembled key figures the PM makes up her mind that the right time to initiate her moves has come. She sets the ball rolling by giving her instructions to the IB Chief.
Happenings: The IB gets deeply involved in organizing the Mukti Bahini in EP and as expected the Generals of West Pakistan gradually fell into the trap. The atrocities increased. Mujibur Rehman was arrested , the Pak army in EP goes on a mad spree of raping and mayhem in EP. To cut the story short- EP was ripe for independence as expected by the Indian PM. The Indians have already done a good propaganda job of the atrocities in EP throughout the world. Each Indian citizen pays a refugee tax/cess to support the millions of refugees who stream into the welcoming India. Repeated warnings to Pakistan , as expected, falls in deaf ears as was expected but the world was just watching. The PM makes a personal visit to international capitals pleading the case of the people of EP without evoking any concrete action(again as was expected). She even meets the President of US the staunchest ally of Pakistani Generals then. But that was only to make a point before the international audience.

The PM has already weighed her military options. She quickly sends her emissaries to Soviet Union and signs a friendship treaty with that super power. The key clause of the treaty was that both the contracting parties will consider an attack on any one of them as an attack on themselves and take appropriate action inconsultation with each other. Thus the PM effectively neutralises the Big Brother US as well as the Smaller Big Brother China in one master stroke. The trigger happy Generals , as expected, orders bombing of Indian air-fields in a pre-emptive attack. The war starts. The Big Brother , true to his wont, sent his gun boats and parked them threateningly in the Bay of Bengal. Chinese started making noises about indian shepherds crossing the border and grazing their cattle in chinese territory.The PM is unmoved. The Indian Army under the leadership of General Maneksha finishes the job quickly with clinical precision and clock work accuracy. The mighty Pakistani army in EP surrenders to the Indian army. A new country is born.

In the first meeting of the Indian Parliament after the victory the opposition leader goes up to the PM and shakes her hands and says "Madam, great people make only history. But you made not only history but also geography".

Yamaka, this is India. Not the one you have imagined. We may quarrell over a hundred issues but certainly we are not suckers.

Your post is a hypothesis, a product of wishful thinking.

My post is a description of events that really happened. The events which have been recorded as history. No wishful thinking here.

And finally, if Chinese or Americans ever thought of doing any harm to India, they will certainly get a bloody nose.

Now the members of this forum who read these two posts will decide for themselves.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Ref. Nara's post #141:

He reminded those long oppressed that they have an innate dignity just as much as anybody else and he/she deserves as much respect as anyone else.

Yes. By keeping all the oppressors as his lieutenants, not having a single oppressed in his inner cabinet. In English this is called by a different word-hypocrisy.

But, when harsh personal insults like "fraud" is thrown around, one expects reasoned arguments based on incontrovertible facts, such as his written words or recorded spoken words. Instead, what we get are vague and unsubstantiated claims like some speech given by him, or his followers, in an unspecified place and an unspecified time

.

What is given above is one reasoned argument. No one can deny that his lieutenants belonged to castes which are in the forefront of all atrocities on the oppressed people in TN and that these lieutenants derived their support and political power from these oppressing castes . If this is not a reasoned argument what else is? When you use your devilish brain to mislead and incite a gullible people it is called manipulation of the worst kind. Hitler did that. Mussolini did that. EVR did that. We do not mince words when we speak about Hitler or Polpot or Genghis khan. There is no reason to do that in the case of EVR. When you become a public figure the personal and impersonal gets mixed up and it becomes just one personality which is judged by what you spoke or did.

It is evident that EVR will remain evil incarnate for almost all Brahmins. But, I like to appeal to the neutral and critical-thinking members of the forum to see such emotional outbursts as calling EVR a fraud without offering any argument based on facts for what it is. Think about this, suppose somebody makes a statement that Paramacharya was a fraud and gives acharya's own written words published in the Kamakoti.org site as evidence, imagine what the reaction would be. Why is the use of this F word against EVR any different?

This is a familiar tactic. If you oppose EVR you have to be a brahmin. Because people have prejudices they can not look at individuals as individuals for their views: they have to be first typecast and it becomes easy and comfortable to deal with them (we can not cope with our ignorance and insecurities and so we need this typecasting). There are any number of NBs who also think what brahmins think about EVR. None of the Communist leaders of Tamilnadu have any great respect for EVR and many of them are not brahmins.

Seeing it as different without any solid evidence can and may be construed as a predisposition, aka prejudice.

What is solid evidence? When I once mentioned about EVR bad mouthing brahmins in a particular way in one of his public meetings in Tuticorin, which I personally had attended, it was dismissed by Nara and his friend as a lie. Now perhaps they expected that I should accept these two as the true solemnised witnesses to all that EVR said so that if they say yes it is yes and if they say no it is no. So this 'solid evidence' trick also does not wash. Now readers here will judge as to which one is predisposition aka prejudice and which is not.

Cheers.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Shri Nara,

May I say, with reference to the high-lighted portion above, each layer or tier trying to catch up with the higher tiers in the jati status, and at the same time putting down those tiers which are considered to be below itself?

So true. Well, this is bound to happen the moment any caste (varna) group is arranged in a ranked order as brahmin - highest, kshatriya - second highest and shudra- lowest. Each caste (occupation) group will aim to get into the brahmin slot or kshatriya slot.

 

[Nara]

History text book corrections by the west bengal government to whitewash ***.

Dear brother sarang, if the Communists interfered in the curriculum then they are guilty of politicizing education and must be condemned as well. I welcome you to join me in condemning both the communists and the BJP.

BTW, are you getting this material from another web site, if so, please provide the link.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Yamaka's post #136:

The PM has already weighed her military options. She quickly sends her emissaries to Soviet Union and signs a friendship treaty with that super power. The key clause of the treaty was that both the contracting parties will consider an attack on any one of them as an attack on themselves and take appropriate action inconsultation with each other. Thus the PM effectively neutralises the Big Brother US as well as the Smaller Big Brother China in one master stroke. The trigger happy Generals , as expected, orders bombing of Indian air-fields in a pre-emptive attack. The war starts. The Big Brother , true to his wont, sent his gun boats and parked them threateningly in the Bay of Bengal. Chinese started making noises about indian shepherds crossing the border and grazing their cattle in chinese territory.The PM is unmoved. The Indian Army under the leadership of General Maneksha finishes the job quickly with clinical precision and clock work accuracy. The mighty Pakistani army in EP surrenders to the Indian army. A new country is born.

In the first meeting of the Indian Parliament after the victory the opposition leader goes up to the PM and shakes her hands and says "Madam, great people make only history. But you made not only history but also geography".

One should not forget that 40 years have passed since the birth of Bangladesh; USSR is only a frail shadow of the superpower it was then, China is a real superpower and Pakistan has the A-bomb most probably. There is no superpower today to whom the Indian PM can send emissaries and sign a friendship treaty with that super power, with the key clause of the treaty being "both the contracting parties will consider an attack on any one of them as an attack on themselves and take appropriate action inconsultation with each other."

The Indian army we may boast of, out of a misplaced sense of patriotism, but it is not able to stand up to China in Kashmir or Arunachal Pradesh; plus the whole military has become rampantly corrupt. So, this is a different India, a very different world. What happened in 1970 may not, rather cannot, repeat today. Above all we don't have a Maneckshaw today.

certainly we are not suckers.

That should be "certainly we will not like to be, will not like to imagine ourselves be suckers, whatever the reality may be". After all did not VeeraPaandiya Kattabomman declare "naam jayittukkoNTE irukkiROm" even moments before his fort was overrun? That is our heritage!

Your post is a hypothesis, a product of wishful thinking.

My post is a description of events that really happened. The events which have been recorded as history. No wishful thinking here.

And finally, if Chinese or Americans ever thought of doing any harm to India, they will certainly get a bloody nose.

Now the members of this forum who read these two posts will decide for themselves.

Cheers.

Of course there is no wishful thinking at all in the past events recounted. But when one says, "if Chinese or Americans ever thought of doing any harm to India, they will certainly get a bloody nose." is mere wishful thinking. Let the Chinese or Americans not get any such idea. Let us pray God for that!