Fatalism and Poverty in India

[Yamaka]

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Dear Ravi:

Here is my response in bold letters...

Shri Yamaka,

Thank you for responding to my post, sparing your time and energy..

For me, your post #24, above, is the same repeated views of yours that you claim to be the truth behind spirituality in India, repeatedly.

I am dead tired due a 4 day hectic trip to various temples in TN. Got back home this morning only and am unable to continue in detail now.

For now, I would say that you are ignoring to grasp my contention.

I bet, 1100 million poor folks who all are locked up inside the Gates of Hell of Poverty are not sleeping round the clock, closing their eyes and doing nothing to help themselves survive better. Some Sluggish folks do exist, freaking around without working and responsibilities irrespective of what they believe, perceive and follow to live their life.

1100 million poor people are not poor due to their belief in God and spirituality. They are poor only because what limited they could get financially to improve their education/skills etc. Though these forlks belive in God and practice spirituality as they could, they are very much on their toes to work laboriously day and night and doing their best for their survival and that of their family members.

No, these people are not lazy, closing their eyes and doing nothing... they huff and puff everyday to make a living..but please see the mechanics of being poverty in most of India91%:

Most are born themselves into poverty.. the typical family has 3-5 children, more girls than boys, mostly. You ask them "Why to have your first child, when you don't have a job?" The typical answer is "Oh, that... Bhahavan giveth, and I taketh" "Naama enna saiya mudiyum?" Most of them don't use contraceptives, like the Catholics, and are not keen on sound family planning, which they say is "Against the Spirit of Believing in the Almighty God".

When you have a dependent wife and 5 children, how could you feed and cloth them, even if you work 10 h a day with your poor education and skills?

Because of poverty at home, school children drop out of school very early, and only 15% of our population ever entered high school, and less than half of it ever passed the HS... leaving a vast population w/o adequate basic education. In my view, all of this is because of large family size for which the basic view is in the Belief of GOD and the theology flows from it.

I have been to almost all the major cities/metros in India and have seem plenty of times as how people suffering in the Gates of Hell of Poverty are running from pillar to post, day and night to make money and survive.

You are just considering the status of abject poverty to substantiate your claims and saying that belief in God and spirituality among these poorest folks is FATALISTIC. You are refusing to accept that these folks are not blind folded that all pervading GOD will take care of them and they can just relax and survive without efforts.

Please accept the basic view of these India91%: "All activities are Pre-Ordained... Thalai Yezhuthu... Nothing can be changed by anybody"

Is this not FATALISM?


I would like to know your opinion on the below which I feel you have ignored to answer specifically. I am copy pasting it from my previous post, in bold -

Do you think poor people who pray God with all their devotion, spending some money in temple poojas and at home, from whatever they could earn with out any sense of realizing the grace of God? Without realizing and feeling that they could some how pull on their family with some wage earning opportunity out of blue?

"As an Atheist, I must say that the Non-Existent God has no GRACE. There are 2.5 billion people who are Non-Believers, Non-Worshipers in the world are living a happier and more comfortable life everyday...they don't worry about the "Grace of God"!

But, a Theist will hope one day "The Grace of God" will come to them.... for most Hindus, if not in this life, a better life is waiting in the OTHER LIFE... ( alas, which will NEVER EVER come, IMO).

This is the Essence of FATALISM that we are arguing about...

Peace.



ps. Not only on the economic life of India91%, Gods, Ghosts, Spirits, Religions and Caste Hierarchy have wrecked India in another way too: It has divided the Society so deeply, it has become very weak and incoherent. I will elaborate about it with a historical perspective later....

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi:

Here is my response in bold letters...



Peace.



ps. Not only on the economic life of India91%, Gods, Ghosts, Spirits, Religions and Caste Hierarchy have wrecked India in another way too: It has divided the Society so deeply, it has become very weak and incoherent. I will elaborate about it with a historical perspective later....

Shri Yamaka,

Whatever you have expressed in your post #26, in bold, highlights nothing but the crooked and wicked mentality of people. The ego and self interest of the individuals which is forcing them to give same lame excuses to not be considered onself as cruel, fool, selfish, ignorant and tipsy. To justfy their doing in the name of God to shut others up.


Such folks in highly populated and corrupted India need to be educated all about what is called responsibilities in one's life, what is smart and healthy living, what is hygeine and healthy, who are the politicians and their ulterior motives are, what for are they been retained as poor and ignorant by politicians/gundas/rowdies, what spirituality is all about etc..etc..

Its a matter of provinding counselling and educating folks to live a better life. To help them not to cheat onself and give lame excuses to justify onself in the name of God and spirituality. To enlighten them to take one's own responsibilities and try to live a smart living. Its all about sorting social and personal issues of these folks.

These folks have their own wrong and selfish calculations to acheive what they want and think that their personal God would still come to their rescue as and when needed. Such mentality is well prevailing among rich and educated folks as well who do all nasty, selfish and cruel things and do bhajans in temples thinking they will be saved by their GOD. Thats how many politicians as well are.

This thread - "Fatalism and Poverty in India" is befitting to highlight the psychology/mental make up etc of the huge poor folks and to find the possible sollutions to enlighten such folks for smart and better living.

But can not be substantiated to prove that GOD/Spirituality/Religion etc are all the mind storm of some crooks to mislead and cheat the innocents and that these are ridiculous and FATALISTIC.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Ravi, Sravna and others:

Please help me to clear my mind and get a clearer view of the Poverty in India.

Please answer the following questions to nail this issue.

1. Do you agree that India is a very poor country today because the GDP is about $4.5 per day per person (by official rate)?

2. Do you agree that 91% of Indians can't make more than $3 income per day per person? This figure is quite the same as what Dr. Sen (Nobelist, Economist) and Arundhati Roy say in their articles.

That's why I divide India into India91% and India9% (to this latter group most of the members of this Forum belong to, fortunately).

3. Most of the poor in this India91% is born into poverty in the first place... poverty begets poverty, and is generational.

4. To understand this generational poverty you have to look into the beginning of an individual, the birth: the child is born into a poor parent in the first place... What are the behaviors and Beliefs of this parent? Most of them are Orthodox Religious People (following mostly Hinduism or Abrahamic religions), like my parents who were poor but still they managed to have FIVE kids, and they lost two girls before the age of 6, leaving behind 3.

My sister was the eldest. To get her married, my parents sold some of the inherited property (fortunately, my grandfather left behind some arid lands with lots of palmyra trees and a stone house in a very small village). My brother finished school, fortunately, and was working as a clerk, then a small business sales person, later owner etc.. and he had 3 girls and 2 boys! He suffered a lot to get the girls married, who in turn gave birth to 3 girls and 2 boys..

I was the last kid in the family.. I should not have been born.. I was an accident... I was conceived when my Mom was close to age 40!

Why all this? Because my parents and brother believed "Aandavan giveth, and Man taketh". Is this not a part of FATALISM?

I posit that this FATALISM is the beginning of the genesis of Poverty in our families and most others.. Why not?

5. I hear that most orthodox religious people like Catholics don't use birth control pills and are forbidden by their Religion. Is this not true in Hinduism? I understand that most people in our village don't use condom or birth control pills, as they are not used to all this! And, it's against the Will of God! Is this not a form of FATALISM?

6. Don't you hear often religious people in India saying "Yellam Thalai Ezhuthu.... All are Pre-Ordained, No one can change anything in this world"?

Is this not FATALISM? Why not?

Please answer these questions to get to the bottom of the issue that we are talking about...

Thanks.

Cheers.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi, Sravna and others:

Please help me to clear my mind and get a clearer view of the Poverty in India.

Please answer the following questions to nail this issue.

1. Do you agree that India is a very poor country today because the GDP is about $4.5 per day per person (by official rate)?

2. Do you agree that 91% of Indians can't make more than $3 income per day per person? This figure is quite the same as what Dr. Sen (Nobelist, Economist) and Arundhati Roy say in their articles.

That's why I divide India into India91% and India9% (to this latter group most of the members of this Forum belong to, fortunately).

3. Most of the poor in this India91% is born into poverty in the first place... poverty begets poverty, and is generational.

4. To understand this generational poverty you have to look into the beginning of an individual, the birth: the child is born into a poor parent in the first place... What are the behaviors and Beliefs of this parent? Most of them are Orthodox Religious People (following mostly Hinduism or Abrahamic religions), like my parents who were poor but still they managed to have FIVE kids, and they lost two girls before the age of 6, leaving behind 3.

My sister was the eldest. To get her married, my parents sold some of the inherited property (fortunately, my grandfather left behind some arid lands with lots of palmyra trees and a stone house in a very small village). My brother finished school, fortunately, and was working as a clerk, then a small business sales person, later owner etc.. and he had 3 girls and 2 boys! He suffered a lot to get the girls married, who in turn gave birth to 3 girls and 2 boys..

I was the last kid in the family.. I should not have been born.. I was an accident... I was conceived when my Mom was close to age 40!

Why all this? Because my parents and brother believed "Aandavan giveth, and Man taketh". Is this not a part of FATALISM?

I posit that this FATALISM is the beginning of the genesis of Poverty in our families and most others.. Why not?

5. I hear that most orthodox religious people like Catholics don't use birth control pills and are forbidden by their Religion. Is this not true in Hinduism? I understand that most people in our village don't use condom or birth control pills, as they are not used to all this! And, it's against the Will of God! Is this not a form of FATALISM?

6. Don't you hear often religious people in India saying "Yellam Thalai Ezhuthu.... All are Pre-Ordained, No one can change anything in this world"?

Is this not FATALISM? Why not?

Please answer these questions to get to the bottom of the issue that we are talking about...

Thanks.

Cheers.

Shri Yamaka,

I believe, if you carefully read my post #27 and try to grasp what I am trying to convey and highlight as the prime reasons (crooked/selfish/ignorant/misguided human psychology), you can understand what is the real issue.

My Sudane GM used to say that, as per Islam its a sin to prevent child birth. It's the God wish to have a child, any number of child. And he says that, such teachings were professed during those bygone days, in the name of religion when the increase of population of a particular community/religion was the prime motive and that such preaching can not hold water in the present era. There are many such enlightened people, owing to their education, knowledge, understanding, rationalism etc, belonging to all religion, who all could know what is the exact essense and purpose of Religion/Spirituality.


This is what I have expressed in my post #27. Providing pyschological counselling, knowledge about the importance of family planning and solving the social and personal issues of Indian91%, poverty can be expected to be eradicated. Along with eradicating corruption and gundaism in India.

Shri Yamaka, you seem to ignore understanding the core issue and finding Religion/Spirituality as FATALISTIC to human kind. It should be other way round in a broader sense. Absence of Spirituality can well be Fatalistic and can lead to the existence of a cruel world.

I would request you to read my post #27 again and try to see if you could give a serious thought about it and carry out your project in India constructively. This will be a great contribution of yours to save INDIA91%.

 

[prasad1]

[h=2]Global Poverty Project - 1.4 Billion Reasons[/h]"Last month approximately 10 million Australians bought tickets for the NSW lotto. Although we are in Queensland, the prize money of $90 million was so large, that I am sure the story made the news up here too.
Let me give you an idea of what choices $90 million would provide:
For $90 million, you could buy:

• Approximately 1,000 First class tickets to Paris; or
• 120 Ferraris.

However,

• in Vietnam, you could build 25,000 schools; or
• In Vanuatu, you could build 120,000 houses.

No wonder World Vision’s Tim Costello often remarks that “in the grand lotto of life, if you are born in Australia, you have already won.”
If you are born in a developing country, the odds are undeniably stacked against you. If you are born female, the odds are worse still. And if you are born with a disability, you start your life among the poorest of the poor.
It is this disadvantage by chance that those of us who have been born relatively lucky have the obligation to do everything we can to help others overcome."

Speech: Global Poverty Project - 1.4 Billion Reasons


But if I know only one reason (I Know my superior knowledge) that is the the only reason I will be screaming about to beat other fellow countrymen, because I hate them and to shame them of their culture.

 

[sarang]

According to a recent survey, indians are the happiest lot.

India is not a poor country; black money stashed by select indians in foreign lands is more than the national budget of most countries.

Let us hope a clean leader like narendra modi gets a chance to rule the country for about ten years.

Even in india, there are pools of affluence and this was reported by an american magazine (newsweek, I think) about 15 years ago.

India's problem is not absence or shortage of wealth and resources, but equitable distribution.

India has poor people, because some indians have become adharmic - because the wealth earned by corrupt and unethical ways is hoarded and not spent the right way.

 

[Yamaka]

According to a recent survey, indians are the happiest lot.

India is not a poor country; black money stashed by select indians in foreign lands is more than the national budget of most countries.

Let us hope a clean leader like narendra modi gets a chance to rule the country for about ten years.

Even in india, there are pools of affluence and this was reported by an american magazine (newsweek, I think) about 15 years ago.

India's problem is not absence or shortage of wealth and resources, but equitable distribution.

India has poor people, because some indians have become adharmic - because the wealth earned by corrupt and unethical ways is hoarded and not spent the right way.

1. There is a fundamental problem in the understanding of the MAGNITUDE of the issue of POVERTY in India..

The India9% is very SELFISH that their eyes don't want to see the 800 lb gorilla walking around in their back and front yards.

a. Yes, there is corruption and goondaism in India...that's because of poor INTEGRITY and PROFESSIONALISM, which stems from very poor education of most Indians. Poor education leads to poor skills and poor skills lead to poor GDP:

The best estimate for 2011 GDP is $2 trillions produced by 1200 million people in India. This is $1666 per capita GDP a year = $4.56 per person per day.

A full 91% of Indians can't earn more than $3 per person per day... these people constitute the India91% (of this nearly 310 million can't write or read their Mother Tongue, and can't do a simple math of addition and subtraction, mostly women).

b) Even if you bring all the money stashed away by about 1000 people in foreign banks, that will be a very tiny drop in a large sea of poverty in India.

c) Total Govt (National, State and Local Govts) budget of India (or any country) is just about 40% of the GDP only maximum.

2. Poor people are born into poor families for generations.... most of them are following the Orthodox dictates of one of the large Organized Religions - Hinduism or the Abrahamic Religions...

Unless the Religious People preach and teach sound family planning among poor households, the problem of large family sizes can't be solved..large poor families eternally propagate poverty in India...

Recent row with the Catholic Bishops on preventive birth control measures (contraceptives and morning-after pills etc) in the US, highlights how Organized Religion like Catholicism is out of step with the needs of the Society of early 21st Century!

Can someone answer whether religious Hindus are allowed to use condom and morning-after pills and other contraceptives in India?

Whether the poor people can access these contraceptives is another issue; but Govt and NGOs can solve this fundamental problem.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

Birth Control - Hinduism - World Religions: What Do Religions Say About Birth Control?
Hinduism encourages procreation within marriage, yet there is no opposition againstcontraception. Most Hindus accept that there is a duty to have a family during that stage of one’s life. So they are unlikely to use birth control to avoid having children altogether.Traditional Hindu texts praise large families (which was normal in ancient times). Yet, Hindu scriptures that applaud small families also exist which emphasize the development of a positive social conscience. So family planning is seen as an ethical good. The Upanishads (texts delineating key Hindu concepts) describe birth control methods, and some Hindu scriptures contain advice on what a couple should do to promote conception (thus providing a type of contraceptive advice).
Contraception views vary widely among Hindu scholars. Although Gandhi advocatedabstinence as a form of birth control, Radhakrishnan (a key Indian philosopher) and Tagore (the most prolific writer in modern Indian literature) encouraged the use of artificial contraceptive methods.

In 1971, abortion was legalized in India, and there has very rarely been any objections to it. India has a high population, so discussion about contraception focuses more on overpopulation rather than moral or personal ethics. India was the first nation to establish a governmental population strategy based on birth control measures.

Bayer Schering Pharma and FPAI introduce World Contraception Day in India | BioPortfolio.com
Express Pharma | Bayer Schering Pharma and the Family Planning Association of India (FPAI) launched World Contraception Day in India. This is the first-ever international awareness campaign with the goal of reducing the high levels of unintended pregnancie..













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[Koodali]

It is a wonderful post Siva.By the way I am Koodali, from Cochin and I have joined the Forum only an hour before and the first post I am viewing is really a moving one.Surely the poverty in our country is a worrying factor.But the real problem is not fatalism but we don't have the will ,I mean the Govts whether in Centre or States to implement what they preach and never botheredabout the well being of the people.That is the reality.
If the politicians are really interested in alleviating the poverty then they would not sit on squabbling but unfortunately that never happens.So there require a systemic change and the same can be expected only when the present day youngsters come up at a later time and take the development in their hands instead of banking the old tired faces.That day will come may be after a decade.Since this the whole system will be in a stage of coma.Am I right?

Best wishes,

Koodali.

 

[Yamaka]

It is a wonderful post Siva.By the way I am Koodali, from Cochin and I have joined the Forum only an hour before and the first post I am viewing is really a moving one.Surely the poverty in our country is a worrying factor.But the real problem is not fatalism but we don't have the will ,I mean the Govts whether in Centre or States to implement what they preach and never botheredabout the well being of the people.That is the reality.
If the politicians are really interested in alleviating the poverty then they would not sit on squabbling but unfortunately that never happens.So there require a systemic change and the same can be expected only when the present day youngsters come up at a later time and take the development in their hands instead of banking the old tired faces.That day will come may be after a decade.Since this the whole system will be in a stage of coma.Am I right?

Best wishes,

Koodali.

Hello Koodali:

Welcome to this Forum... Nice meeting you here.

Please remember

1. The three Ps in the Society - People, Politics and Politicians. People are the berdock of all that's happening in India. Politics of views among People create the Political Parties and Politicians come into the picture.

As I wrote elsewhere, liberal quality education is the KEY to enhance the quality of thinking among the People.

Do you know that, because of various family situations, only 15% of Indians enter high school, and only less than half of that even pass the high school education?

That's the starting point for all the MISERY and POVERTY in India...

2. Why, then Indians drop out of high school in the first place? Because most of them are coming from LARGE, religioously Orthodox households... they want to make a few bucks to feed the LARGE family, they drop out of school early...

3. Why the family size is that large in the first place? Because most of them believe that "Aandavan giveth, and the Man taketh" "Athu Kuzhanthai Selvam... we just can't stop it, period". Consequently, most families have 5 children (mostly 3 girls and 2 boys) and a dependent wife...

This stems from the FATALISM in the Belief of the Almighty God, "the Most Compassionate and the Most Merciful"!

This is exactly what I am riling against this God and the attendant FATALISM...

More later... "We Need to Get to the Bottom of the Poverty Issue in India"... It's the God & His People, nothing else...

Cheers.

 

[biswa]

"Why are they so poor that many go hungry everyday, who can't make more than Rs. 150 per day per person?"

I opine that the basic reason is the Fatalism propounded by the Holy Books of Religions in India.

My posts have been one way or the other to substantiate this claim. I expect the Believers to give their alternate view.

Why, then, Indians become very Divided and thus Weak?

I opine that because of the rigid Caste Hierarchy in the Indian Society propounded by the Ancient Religion. I expect the Believers to give their alternate view.

I totally don't get this. Why does poverty (a universal phenomenon) depend on religion? And the caste system (not to be condoned) is responsible for Indians succumbing to invasions?

Does this chain of arguments mean that converting everybody to atheism will make them automatically rich? Or conversely converting the atheists to some religion will make them immediately poor?

Now take some society with no caste system. Just for example let us take Muslims and the country of Bangladesh which (at least nominally) has no caste system. What is to be admired there? Not only is it the poorest country in the region, it can be overwhelmed by (caste-ridden) ridden India any day.

Casteism is a problem but that is not the only reason India was conquered. Any country in the world can be conquered when the time is ripe. That's what history has shown.

 

[Yamaka]

My response to the questions in bold letters here -

I totally don't get this. Why does poverty (a universal phenomenon) depend on religion? And the caste system (not to be condoned) is responsible for Indians succumbing to invasions?

India has BOTH ancient religion Hinduism mostly (85%) and its Caste system. Other places in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia have Islam and Africa, Central and South America have mostly Catholicism... most of the OECD countries are lukewarm to the Organized Religions and are becoming Agnostics/Non-Worshipers.. about 20% of the total OECD is really religious in the orthodox sense.

India has been invaded and occupied since 900 AD.. for such a long period (with brief breaks) of occupation, there got to be a FUNDAMENTAL FLAW in the Society. My hypothesis is Hinduism & its Rigid Casteism has divided the Society so deeply that they were weak for a long time, thus being beaten by invading armies, tactics etc.

Does this chain of arguments mean that converting everybody to atheism will make them automatically rich? Or conversely converting the atheists to some religion will make them immediately poor?

Good question.. like the former Soviet Union and the present China, if the Religions are taken out (I favor a change in the Society intellectually, and not a mandate by the State as Chairman Mao did in China) then the FATALISM will be removed and the family size in each family will be commensurate with the economic situation. This will vastly improve the situation. India's GDP per capita will jump 5-10 times in relatively a short time, I strongly believe...What's the mechanics here? More people will stay back in schools and finish high schools and more will go to college etc etc... This means more Education, more skills, more jobs and better per capita GDP!

Now take some society with no caste system. Just for example let us take Muslims and the country of Bangladesh which (at least nominally) has no caste system. What is to be admired there? Not only is it the poorest country in the region, it can be overwhelmed by (caste-ridden) ridden India any day.

Problem of BD, Pak, Indonesia is Islam and the attendant FATALISM, as I said above.

Casteism is a problem but that is not the only reason India was conquered. Any country in the world can be conquered when the time is ripe. That's what history has shown.

The inner core of Hinduism IS Casteism, deeply ingrained and totally entrained in Indian psyche.. this is the root cause of division in the Society, that paved the way for our subjugation, so much so we did not have Industrial Revolution, or Cultural Revolution.

The Society is very ancient with all its accumulated bad habits.... that's why India91% is stuck w/o a Solution.

Cheers.

 

[amala]

I totally don't get this. Why does poverty (a universal phenomenon) depend on religion? And the caste system (not to be condoned) is responsible for Indians succumbing to invasions?

Does this chain of arguments mean that converting everybody to atheism will make them automatically rich? Or conversely converting the atheists to some religion will make them immediately poor?

Now take some society with no caste system. Just for example let us take Muslims and the country of Bangladesh which (at least nominally) has no caste system. What is to be admired there? Not only is it the poorest country in the region, it can be overwhelmed by (caste-ridden) ridden India any day.

Casteism is a problem but that is not the only reason India was conquered. Any country in the world can be conquered when the time is ripe. That's what history has shown.

In some cases poverty does depend on religion. Take Catholicism. They keep having kids after kids after kids and not using contraception BECAUSE of their religion not in spite of it. Because. So religion and superstitions and cultural backwardness (in many cases) are a hindrance to progress and education which breeds more poverty. What so hard to understand?

I think YamakaJi is coming from the direction that caste is one more thing that divides Indians. God knows we have so many divisions as it is. Religion, gender, now caste, subsect et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. When a people are so divided so easily, is it not easy for invasions and invaders to conquer? This is his point and i dunno why its so hard to get that. I really don't! I'm sorry YamakaJi i shouldn't be putting words in your mouth but when you said religion and caste i got what you mean, or rather generally speaking i understand where you're coming from. If people want to be pedantic there is no end.

Why Bangladesh? I actually read more than once in many different articles that India has the poorest people in the world, even poorer than Sub Saharan Africa! Why not look at ourselves first before pointing to Bangladesh? And yes India can overwhelm Bangladesh because Bangladesh is a tiny tiny tiny country! What pride or achievement is there if a hugeee country overwhelms a teeny weeny one. Why on earth compare with Bangladesh? Pick a country your own size!

China can overwhelm India too i believe. It really doesnt help that the Chinese are very very united in many many ways.

So in conclusion religion without education will only exacerbate poverty and not help IMO. This is the case in many a developing nation. yes it is not the only reason, but one of it.

 

[C RAVI]

Shri Yamaka and other supporters (at this point of time and any others in due course of time) of Shri Yamaka's views,

I coudn't understand what is so hard to understand the messages in posts, posted by me one after the other, by Shri Sarang, by Shri Prasad, by Mr.Biswa and few others?


The issue of poverty is certainly not due to religion/spirituality. No schooling, High School drop outs, College drop outs etc...etc.. are purely the financial circumstances of INDIA91% due to corrupted political INDIA99%.

Assuming, attempts been made to help suffering INDIA91%, in trying to covert them into Atheists -

1) Will these poor folks stop producing children? The core reason of producing 4 or 5 childen is - 1) don't want money to be spent for contraception, 2) more number of children can help more earning - a) lending babies to beggers and receive some money at the end of every day as per the deal; b) supply children to child labour mafias to work in cottage industries and other establishments and earn money; c) earning money through girl children by way of prostitution right from the tender age; d) more number of children would help more productivity in father's menial profession; e) more male children would contribute money by way of handing them over to mafias/political goondas, right from their tender age etc..etc..etc..



2) Will these poor folks automatically get the outsider's/society's/government's sympathy and support to provide them financial cushioning?

3) Can it be assured that these folks would honestly covert themselves as atheist and this atheism would enlighten them to the extent that, these poor folks would change their attitude, behavior, motives, money generating ideas etc..etc and turn out to be responsible humans?

4) People would come and go to advice them either to be theists or atheist and no one gonna keep focused in their day to day life, to take them out of abject poverty, leaving aside their personal business. Does any sort of convertion gonna give these poor folks any confidence that they can survive better?

5) Some Food to fill stomach and Sex are the only things that these folks are enjoying. They earn money to fill their stomach but don't want to spend single paisa from their earnings for anything that could prevent child birth. These poor folks, having been converted into Atheists, can these folks automatically earn more money and spend some money for contraception?


I repeat the same that I have stated in one of my previous post. Allmost all of these folks give lame excuses citing religions philosophy, to justify their acts (giving birth to any no. of kids).

Allmost all of these folks are least bothered about religious philosophies when it is all about earning money. They indulge in many anti social / unethical livelihood to "fill their stomach". But still they believe in God and be in spirituality assuming the all knowing GOD will spare them from their wrong doing and would help them generate more money - through opportunities to work (ethical/unethical, whatever may be) and earn and by producing children to have many source of earning.

Whether they believe in God/Religion/Spirituality and pray OR NOT, these poor folks gonna remain poor and keep producing children with their own needs/motives/ideas.


Please try to look into the core reason and don't wast time and energy to covert them into atheists. I bet, hardly you can be successful in doing so, when most of these folks are into many wrong doings and want to seek mercy of the GOD for their own and their family's protection.

I don't understand what's so hard to understand that INDIA91% is purely a personal/social/economical/political issues and got nothing to do with theism and atheism. These are not the reasons of ONLY INDIA91% but any other country that got 91% poor polulation with huge corruption.


I would request the reformists who wants to change the fate of INDIA91% for better, to look into the couses carefully and practically and ensure that their project serves the purpose.

From my side, I would say that -

It is must to provide them psychological counselling to mould their mind set/attitude/behaviour, educating them about the importance of family planning (economical & health wise), making them understand the responsibilities of being a responsible citizen knowing what is politics and who the politicians are. Educating them what's the true essense of religon/spirituality and its purposes. Letting them know what is rationalism while practicing their spirituality. Instread, focussing on converting them into atheist would be near to impossibility, in fact would serve no purpose when the reasons are not pertaining to religion/god/spirituality.

Most importantly to see if anything can be done first to ensure India could be relieved from the clutches of corruptions and corrupted politicians. Once Finances are managed properly without greedy selfish motives of corrupoted politicians, poverty can be eradicated by various constructive schemes.

 

[Yamaka]

In some cases poverty does depend on religion. Take Catholicism. They keep having kids after kids after kids and not using contraception BECAUSE of their religion not in spite of it. Because. So religion and superstitions and cultural backwardness (in many cases) are a hindrance to progress and education which breeds more poverty. What so hard to understand?

I think YamakaJi is coming from the direction that caste is one more thing that divides Indians. God knows we have so many divisions as it is. Religion, gender, now caste, subsect et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. When a people are so divided so easily, is it not easy for invasions and invaders to conquer? This is his point and i dunno why its so hard to get that. I really don't! I'm sorry YamakaJi i shouldn't be putting words in your mouth but when you said religion and caste i got what you mean, or rather generally speaking i understand where you're coming from. If people want to be pedantic there is no end.

Why Bangladesh? I actually read more than once in many different articles that India has the poorest people in the world, even poorer than Sub Saharan Africa! Why not look at ourselves first before pointing to Bangladesh? And yes India can overwhelm Bangladesh because Bangladesh is a tiny tiny tiny country! What pride or achievement is there if a hugeee country overwhelms a teeny weeny one. Why on earth compare with Bangladesh? Pick a country your own size!

China can overwhelm India too i believe. It really doesnt help that the Chinese are very very united in many many ways.

So in conclusion religion without education will only exacerbate poverty and not help IMO. This is the case in many a developing nation. yes it is not the only reason, but one of it.

Hello Amala:

Thanks for the nice feedback.

I like very much your concluding lines.

Quality Education is the key.... more importantly the Education of girls and women in any Society. In India, among India91% this is very much lacking, as I observe.

When I ask basic questions like "Why so many kids drop out of school in India?". The answer I get is "Family situation.. family is very poor, the parents are struggling to feed the kids, therefore, kids must quit schools and get to work".

Then I ask "Why can't the parents feed the kids?". The answer is "Oh.. there are too many for the income that Appa brings home".

Then I ask,"Why Appa & Amma wanted this large a family, when they knew they can't feed them?" The typical answer is "Oh.. that is what Kadavul did to us".

Then I ask,"Did you use birth control measures?". The answer is "Oh.. no.. no... it's all against our religion and practice in this village/town/country". This is true of household of Hindus, Muslims and Christians.

Although, abortion is legal in India.. Religiously speaking it is not effectively used by India91%, similar to practices among Catholics in Haiti, Central/South America.

Therefore, my hypothesis is Religion & its teachings are the REAL culprit for the widespread poverty in India.

Regarding the forces that made India weak for generations: Religion, Caste, Language etc..IMO.

More later..

Cheers.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Ravi Ji,

Very nice and heartfelt post above.

Poverty and causes of it have been studied quite a bit by social scientists, all around the world, including some rich countries, like USA.

There are umpteen number of scholarly studies available to support one's hypothesis, whatever it may be, if it is true. Dr.TKS Ji just did that in one of his posts above.

Two countries with highest religiosity but with opposite levels of poverty are, guess what? India and USA.

The causes of poverty are well known. Religion, unfortunately for this thread starter is not one of the major ones. Self survival comes first.

If atheism is the religion of India and with the same conditions that exist, I bet the poor children from the poor households will be the subjects of much more immoral money making tools than they are now! And that is my hypothesis!

Regards,
KRS

 

[Yamaka]

Shri Yamaka and other supporters (at this point of time and any others in due course of time) of Shri Yamaka's views,

I coudn't understand what is so hard to understand the messages in posts, posted by me one after the other, by Shri Sarang, by Shri Prasad, by Mr.Biswa and few others?


The issue of poverty is certainly not due to religion/spirituality. No schooling, High School drop outs, College drop outs etc...etc.. are purely the financial circumstances of INDIA91% due to corrupted political INDIA99%.

Assuming, attempts been made to help suffering INDIA91%, in trying to covert them into Atheists -

1) Will these poor folks stop producing children? The core reason of producing 4 or 5 childen is - 1) don't want money to be spent for contraception, 2) more number of children can help more earning - a) lending babies to beggers and receive some money at the end of every day as per the deal; b) supply children to child labour mafias to work in cottage industries and other establishments and earn money; c) earning money through girl children by way of prostitution right from the tender age; d) more number of children would help more productivity in father's menial profession; e) more male children would contribute money by way of handing them over to mafias/political goondas, right from their tender age etc..etc..etc..



2) Will these poor folks automatically get the outsider's/society's/government's sympathy and support to provide them financial cushioning?

3) Can it be assured that these folks would honestly covert themselves as atheist and this atheism would enlighten them to the extent that, these poor folks would change their attitude, behavior, motives, money generating ideas etc..etc and turn out to be responsible humans?

4) People would come and go to advice them either to be theists or atheist and no one gonna keep focused in their day to day life, to take them out of abject poverty, leaving aside their personal business. Does any sort of convertion gonna give these poor folks any confidence that they can survive better?

5) Some Food to fill stomach and Sex are the only things that these folks are enjoying. They earn money to fill their stomach but don't want to spend single paisa from their earnings for anything that could prevent child birth. These poor folks, having been converted into Atheists, can these folks automatically earn more money and spend some money for contraception?


I repeat the same that I have stated in one of my previous post. Allmost all of these folks give lame excuses citing religions philosophy, to justify their acts (giving birth to any no. of kids).

Allmost all of these folks are least bothered about religious philosophies when it is all about earning money. They indulge in many anti social / unethical livelihood to "fill their stomach". But still they believe in God and be in spirituality assuming the all knowing GOD will spare them from their wrong doing and would help them generate more money - through opportunities to work (ethical/unethical, whatever may be) and earn and by producing children to have many source of earning.

Whether they believe in God/Religion/Spirituality and pray OR NOT, these poor folks gonna remain poor and keep producing children with their own needs/motives/ideas.


Please try to look into the core reason and don't wast time and energy to covert them into atheists. I bet, hardly you can be successful in doing so, when most of these folks are into many wrong doings and want to seek mercy of the GOD for their own and their family's protection.

I don't understand what's so hard to understand that INDIA91% is purely a personal/social/economical/political issues and got nothing to do with theism and atheism. These are not the reasons of ONLY INDIA91% but any other country that got 91% poor polulation with huge corruption.


I would request the reformists who wants to change the fate of INDIA91% for better, to look into the couses carefully and practically and ensure that their project serves the purpose.

From my side, I would say that -

It is must to provide them psychological counselling to mould their mind set/attitude/behaviour, educating them about the importance of family planning (economical & health wise), making them understand the responsibilities of being a responsible citizen knowing what is politics and who the politicians are. Educating them what's the true essense of religon/spirituality and its purposes. Letting them know what is rationalism while practicing their spirituality. Instread, focussing on converting them into atheist would be near to impossibility, in fact would serve no purpose when the reasons are not pertaining to religion/god/spirituality.

Most importantly to see if anything can be done first to ensure India could be relieved from the clutches of corruptions and corrupted politicians. Once Finances are managed properly without greedy selfish motives of corrupoted politicians, poverty can be eradicated by various constructive schemes.

Dear Ravi and other Theists:

As I wrote to dear Amala, what's lacking is quality Education for the India91%.

If you keep asking the questions, as I have asked, the resounding answer at the end of the day is FATALISM derived from the IDEA of "The All Knowing Merciful God, who giveth everything and Man taketh"... "All activities are Pre-Ordained, hence Nothing can be changed in this world and in the OTHER world".

This very basic MINDSET is not understood comprehensively by the people of India9%.

The same problem here with you and your supporters in this Forum... Your understanding of the root cause is terribly faulty, IMO.

In the US, we have serious struggle between the White House and the Catholic Bishops in giving free contraceptives and birth control tools to women...Catholics oppose these tools because it is against their Theology... I believe the same MINDSET is prevalent in India among religious people.

You may deny it...

Because you want to pretend sleeping.. I just can't wake you up, dear Ravi.

More later.

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

When you want to blame the victim for their position in life is wrong. To knock the only hope these poor people have is that they will be saved is cruel. If a blind person has hope on his stick to help them. who are we the people with vision to tell them that stick is useless.

 

[Yamaka]

When you want to blame the victim for their position in life is wrong. To knock the only hope these poor people have is that they will be saved is cruel. If a blind person has hope on his stick to help them. who are we the people with vision to tell them that stick is useless.

No one is really blaming the victims.. I am blaming the Theology that said, "The All Knowing, Most Merciful God will take care of ALL people, their NEEDS, in this world", which these poor people bought into in their psyche...

I am riling against the FATALISM that originated from the ancient Religions that has permeated into the Society since 1500 BC.

Then, in this early 21st Century, what's the way out of this intractable entrenched MINDSET?

I only suggest that somehow control the family size in the poor households and help them to stay in schools and complete the High school education before they go into the job market..

I am not advocating a State Ban on all religions, the same Mao Zedong did in China in 1960s.

Cheers.

 

[biswa]

My response to the questions in bold letters here -



The inner core of Hinduism IS Casteism, deeply ingrained and totally entrained in Indian psyche.. this is the root cause of division in the Society, that paved the way for our subjugation, so much so we did not have Industrial Revolution, or Cultural Revolution.

The Society is very ancient with all its accumulated bad habits.... that's why India91% is stuck w/o a Solution.

Cheers.

Sorry as a practising Hindu I totally disagree with the above. If you equate Hinduism with casteism, I would have to say you really don't get the "inner core of Hinduism". I mean this is bordering on hate speech.

 

[Yamaka]

Sorry as a practising Hindu I totally disagree with the above. If you equate Hinduism with casteism, I would have to say you really don't get the "inner core of Hinduism". I mean this is bordering on hate speech.

This is what I learn from my wife, a TB from Trichy, who is an Agno-Theist.. as she says "Sanathana Dharma has million different meanings to billion Hindus.."

Therefore I am not surprised that you don't buy what I wrote...

This is nothing to do with "hate speech"..but if you insist then it's your problem!

Peace.



ps. There are Reformed Hindus who hate the Casteism. You may be one of them, I recognize it... but NOT all are.

 

[prasad1]

No one is really blaming the victims.. I am blaming the Theology that said, "The All Knowing, Most Merciful God will take care of ALL people, their NEEDS, in this world", which these poor people bought into in their psyche...

I am riling against the FATALISM that originated from the ancient Religions that has permeated into the Society since 1500 BC.

Then, in this early 21st Century, what's the way out of this intractable entrenched MINDSET?

I only suggest that somehow control the family size in the poor households and help them to stay in schools and complete the High school education before they go into the job market..

I am not advocating a State Ban on all religions, the same Mao Zedong did in China in 1960s.

Cheers.

I generally do not respond to you sir.
In a free democratic country, you can not force the family size (sanjay Gandhi paid the price). Education and economic progress is the only way to control population. The middle class, and upwardly mobile urban poor have reduced the family size, and this is true in Hindu society.

The Hindu religion is not the barrier. The misunderstood Islam and Misguided Christian do not want to control the population.
So instead of blaming poverty on religion, the main cause is education, and empowerment of women. If women is empowered in a society, the prosperity is assured.

 

[biswa]

This is what I learn from my wife, a TB from Trichy, who is an Agno-Theist.. as she says "Sanathana Dharma has million different meanings to billion Hindus.."

Therefore I am not surprised that you don't buy what I wrote...

This is nothing to do with "hate speech"..but if you insist then it's your problem!

Peace.



ps. There are Reformed Hindus who hate the Casteism. You may be one of them, I recognize it... but NOT all are.

Without getting into the details of your wife's beliefs, I don't think one person can speak for the beliefs of millions of Hindus. Maybe that's what she meant, but somehow you are using that to support the argument that Hindus are casteist in general.

Saying that most Hindus are casteist is the same as saying most Muslims are terrorists or most Jews are usurious. Broad sweeping statements like that labelling entire populations are not arguments. They are really hateful opinions.

 

[biswa]

The Hindu religion is not the barrier. The misunderstood Islam and Misguided Christian do not want to control the population.
So instead of blaming poverty on religion, the main cause is education, and empowerment of women. If women is empowered in a society, the prosperity is assured.

Interestingly it is not only Hindus who are poor. In fact in India the Muslims are the poorest, as they are in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Afghanistan and many African countries. In the middle east some are well-to-do just because of the oil wealth, not because of producing anything.

But I will say this: poverty has no religion. We should show compassion to the poor, instead of using it to forward some religious or atheistic agenda.

 

[Yamaka]

I generally do not respond to you sir.
In a free democratic country, you can not force the family size (sanjay Gandhi paid the price). Education and economic progress is the only way to control population. The middle class, and upwardly mobile urban poor have reduced the family size, and this is true in Hindu society.

The Hindu religion is not the barrier. The misunderstood Islam and Misguided Christian do not want to control the population.
So instead of blaming poverty on religion, the main cause is education, and empowerment of women. If women is empowered in a society, the prosperity is assured.

1. Here we go around in circles.. India9% has no problem (this is the so-called a very tiny "middle and upwardly mobile urban poor".

2. We are talking about India91%. Followers of the Abrahamic religions are hardly 15% of this total; they get only 15% of the blame, if you will.

3. How will you educate people and empower women when they don't enter 6th grade, 7th grade, 8th grade or 9th grade of school due to "family problems"?

4. Ask them about those "family problems". They will say, "Our parents can't afford to send us to school, we need to find some low paying jobs for our family is HUGE, too many mouths to feed and we know we don't have any skills"

That's why I propose that the Govt and NGOs must promote on a war footing "One Child Policy or Naam Iruvar Namaku Oruvar" mantra and give free contraceptives and birth control tools..

Then again what would the Hindutva Groups do to this approach, as the Catholic Bishops do in the US?

That's where the Religious FATALISM comes and collides with the progress of the Society, IMO.

More later...