Fatalism and Poverty in India

[Koodali]

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I think the poverty in India is mainly due to the agricultural policy adopted from Independence.Nehru wanted India to be like Germany that is an industrial country.
We had a resreve of 1400 billion sterling pounds as reserve when the Britishers quit.But in his ambitious plan of industrialisation put the money on steel plants whose gestation period may take years and at the same time did nothing to boost the agricultural sector.As a result we had to import both machineries for plants and also foodgrains thereby the reserves dwindled.
India is basically an agricultural country and after Independence the agricultural sector shuld have been given priority and when we become somewhat self sufficient simultaneously embark on industrialisation.This was not done.In this Japan is a classic example.Even after the devastation of their economy after the World War II they first concentrated on agriculture and by innovative methods made quick progress in that sector and when they become self sufficient then they started exporting and also started industrialisation and the result they became a great power.Of course due to the fury of nature they are somewhat down now but still they have got the will to rise up.
But in India instead of increasing the productivity the people became docile and started producing children and the Govt has no policy on this and interested in vote banks to boost their welfare instead of the welfare of the country.So there is all round failure in education,agricultural,industrial sectors though some people have made plenty of money and majority of them probably more than 90% of the population suffer in dire straights.Without any clue and vision the Govt is going on to somehow manage without bothering about long term plans and miserably failed to implement even the projects they visualise as good.So there is natural unemployment and as food produced is not being distributed properly and allowed to get rot becoz of the lack of infrastructure and the Ministers more interested in filling their pockets the situation is worsening day by day.Who bothers when millions suffer the Netas want to live in all comforts and loot the money to the maximum and even the babus are in no way lag
behind.In such a scenerio where to expect any change unless the netas and babus are publicly flogged for their inefficiency and so suggestions can be made in plenty but who is to bell the cat?The poor people who vote on seeing the promises of leaders of all political hues only find them they are miserably cheated by the so called elected representatives and suffer in dire straights.
Who will bring a moral and social revolution in such a confused atmosphere?
Which party has the real desire to serve the Nation?A million dollar question which can never be answered unless a revolution like the French revolution gets erupted sooner than later.So education of the poor is the most priority and when people become literate they won't succumb to the platitudes of the politicians and can select the best persons available to govern.As long as such thing is applied there is no way out and the rich will always be richer and the poor poorer.This will surely lead to anarchy and people wuill also start in looting the gullible and all round chaos and confusuion.

 

[ShivKC]

uncle Yams, missed to respond some of your previous posts, cos i was holidaying out and ending it with V-day. here im back again.

i have seen many a atheists claim themselves to be followers or admirers of 'naturalism' (including you). interestingly, they condemn fatalism.

but my query is, isnt that naturalism is just another form of fatalism, which makes a person's behavior totally rely on the functions of environment, cause and effects of nature, which man has no control. something like, environmental fate?

let me present my views of naturalism in line with your points on fatalism.

Great famine:blame it on nature. Cyclone : blame it on nature.


how about having a discussion on 'Determinism'?

 

[ozone]

The other day I saw this news about the Bomb blast in Bangkok. The bomber hurled a bomb at the police,
but the bomb hit a tree and bounced back at the Bomber killing him. What -ism would this come under?

 

[prasad1]

The other day I saw this news about the Bomb blast in Bangkok. The bomber hurled a bomb at the police,
but the bomb hit a tree and bounced back at the Bomber killing him. What -ism would this come under?

Fanaticism, idiot-ism, rush to reach 72 virgins.

 

[C RAVI]

Fanaticism, idiot-ism, rush to reach 72 virgins.

:juggle: :becky:

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Koodali:

Thanks for your input.. I am giving my response in bold letters below.

I think the poverty in India is mainly due to the agricultural policy adopted from Independence.Nehru wanted India to be like Germany that is an industrial country.
We had a resreve of 1400 billion sterling pounds as reserve when the Britishers quit.But in his ambitious plan of industrialisation put the money on steel plants whose gestation period may take years and at the same time did nothing to boost the agricultural sector.As a result we had to import both machineries for plants and also foodgrains thereby the reserves dwindled.

Perhaps, it was the failure of the Policy Priorities. Maybe not.. Pandit Nehru has been praised by majority of the voters for his vision, for he laid the foundation for the Modern India.

India is basically an agricultural country and after Independence the agricultural sector shuld have been given priority and when we become somewhat self sufficient simultaneously embark on industrialisation.This was not done.In this Japan is a classic example.Even after the devastation of their economy after the World War II they first concentrated on agriculture and by innovative methods made quick progress in that sector and when they become self sufficient then they started exporting and also started industrialisation and the result they became a great power.Of course due to the fury of nature they are somewhat down now but still they have got the will to rise up.
But in India instead of increasing the productivity the people became docile and started producing children and the Govt has no policy on this and interested in vote banks to boost their welfare instead of the welfare of the country.So there is all round failure in education,agricultural,industrial sectors though some people have made plenty of money and majority of them probably more than 90% of the population suffer in dire straights.Without any clue and vision the Govt is going on to somehow manage without bothering about long term plans and miserably failed to implement even the projects they visualise as good.So there is natural unemployment and as food produced is not being distributed properly and allowed to get rot becoz of the lack of infrastructure and the Ministers more interested in filling their pockets the situation is worsening day by day.Who bothers when millions suffer the Netas want to live in all comforts and loot the money to the maximum and even the babus are in no way lag
behind.In such a scenerio where to expect any change unless the netas and babus are publicly flogged for their inefficiency and so suggestions can be made in plenty but who is to bell the cat?The poor people who vote on seeing the promises of leaders of all political hues only find them they are miserably cheated by the so called elected representatives and suffer in dire straights.

I am happy that you agree that the India91% do exist and you attribute that to population explosion as one of the reasons. This is the KEY point I want to focus... yesterday I read a comparative analysis of Red China and India regarding kids upto age 17: It seems in China there are about 14 million live births every year. Because their rural health is so good, all most all babies are saved, and about 14 million kids enter 9th grade every year, of which about 13.5 million graduate from High School a year... this is an awesome achievement of the policies of the Godless Chinese Govt!... Now compare this to India of today: It seems about 25 million babies are born every year..of this about19 million survive... there is drop outs of kids in every year to the point only 15% of the kids enter the 9th grade and only half of this number graduate from HS.. this is a pathetic record.

I want to ask the people this: Why nearly 85% of the kids drop out of the school in India? We all believe that quality education is the KEY to success in any Society.. My analysis takes me to the conclusion that FATALISM associated with Gods, Spirits and Religion is the root cause... And that's what we are debating here.

I understand that Dr. MMS and the State Govts spend enormous money to improve the infrastructure for Education... But again, if 85% of the kids enter 9th grade in India, do we have enough schools to handle? No. We don't have enough schools, teachers and funds to support it.. this is a humongous challenge to any policy maker... either we tax the citizens who make "good living" or do deficit financing?


Who will bring a moral and social revolution in such a confused atmosphere?
Which party has the real desire to serve the Nation?A million dollar question which can never be answered unless a revolution like the French revolution gets erupted sooner than later.So education of the poor is the most priority and when people become literate they won't succumb to the platitudes of the politicians and can select the best persons available to govern.As long as such thing is applied there is no way out and the rich will always be richer and the poor poorer.This will surely lead to anarchy and people wuill also start in looting the gullible and all round chaos and confusuion.

WE all have opted for Democracy of the type of multi-parties, and the Majority Principle.. We must find solutions within the constraints come with it.

Political Activism that leads to "tangible results" is one way... But many religious FATALISTS conclude "India is condemned to fail because of the Poorva Janma Karma".. I want to disagree with them.

In my historical perspective, between 7000 BC to 1500 BC Indians lived an Oppulant, Fabulous life - they were the envy of the entire world... then Vedas, Puranas came followed by Koran and Bible; perhaps coincidentally we set to sail in the downward slope in an inexorable decline that has brought India 2012 in this pathetic situation... That breaks my heart and I am crying and asking for a Solution: Oliver Twist asked for more... and Yamaka is asking for a Solution to India91%... please hear my cry..

Peace.



ps. Please make small para of your posts - that would help oldies like me to read easily! Lol

 

[Yamaka]

Definitely not.
1. Bharat was a rich and poor-free country till 3 centuries ago; it is still is rich with its natural resources, saved assets and philosophy.
2. Out problem is the corrupt ruling class which is exploiting the very people (depressed class) who voted them to power.
3. There are poor atheists and rich theists.
4. The british disrupted the land holding pattern by their ryotwari and jamindari acts. Modern politicians in nexus with real estate developers are doing the same with rural and urban lands by indiscriminate land classification, control and decontrol.
5. Capital generated by exploiting lines the pockets of politicians, and their cronies. Recent examples are the 2G scam, commonwealth games scam, praful patel-air india-canadian businessman scam - the list is endless.
6. If all the money earned by the cheat politicians and saved in safe havens is seized and put to eradication of poverty - food/ housing security, free education, minimim cash dole for the poor - visible and perceived poverty will vanish.
7. Some of the corrupt politicians and business folk are religious (all faiths) and their faith in fatalism has made them rich.

1. It depends on the time horizon that you are comparing. Yes, during Guptas, during Raja Raja Cholas, during the Moghuls most of Indians lived well... but when comparing to the glorious times of the Mehrgarh, Mohanjedao or Harrappans we were becoming poorer and poorer every century.

What came to India after 1500 BC? Vedas, Puranas, then Koran and the Bible. The country became terribly religious!

Is it not a historical fact?

2. Yes, corruption is a problem.

3. Yes, poor politics and politicians are problem.

Does this not the reflection of the People in the Society? Then, talk about the People...

How to educate all this People? When they drop out of school too pre-maturely because of poor households.

Poverty begets poverty, which runs for generations and generations. How will you break this cycle?

That's what we are talking about here! We need a viable Hypothesis before we search for Solutions... and I make my hypothesis from my understanding of the extent and magnitude of the Problem.

Peace.

 

[KRS]

I think, for all of us who do acknowledge that India has poverty (but reject the hypothesis that religion is the main cause), this story tells about the policy and polity impact on the nutrition of our babies there.

As was said above, it is about corruption, about not focusing on the right things. The country at the policy level have been implementing wrong untested policies such as quota systems at the higher education level, without focusing on poverty irrespective of castes and religion, and putting in to practice true and tested policies to truly uplift the poor from the birth, till they at least achieve high school education.

World News - India's hunger 'shame': 3,000 children die every day, despite economic growth

Regards,
KRS

 

[Yamaka]

uncle Yams, missed to respond some of your previous posts, cos i was holidaying out and ending it with V-day. here im back again.

i have seen many a atheists claim themselves to be followers or admirers of 'naturalism' (including you). interestingly, they condemn fatalism.

but my query is, isnt that naturalism is just another form of fatalism, which makes a person's behavior totally rely on the functions of environment, cause and effects of nature, which man has no control. something like, environmental fate?

let me present my views of naturalism in line with your points on fatalism.

Great famine:blame it on nature. Cyclone : blame it on nature.


how about having a discussion on 'Determinism'?

Dear Shiv:

We were missing you...

Yes, I am an Atheist... People asked me "Y, do you admire anything at all?" My answer is "I admire Nature and I try to understand it, and I call myself a Naturalist!"

Please recall why I am an Atheist: That I don't believe what Theist believe as far as the SNA (Super Natural Agent in the form of a Super Human like Jesus, Krishna, Rama etc), PPB (prayer, pooja and bhajans) and the PJK (poorva janma karma) are concerned.

As I said before, Naturalists including all the Scientists don't FULLY understand Nature... what we know today is just a small sand comparing to the ocean of unknowns... but we have a PROCESS of Scientific Inquiry in place, which will unravel ALL of Nature in a billion year, at least! Lol

Famines, Cyclone, Tsunamis (including the Financial Tsunamis!), Earth Quake are all facts of life - all Nature's Fury, as we all say..

Dear Shiv, before we change the question, let's get the answer to the question already in play here!

Can Religious FATALISM be responsible at least partly to the entrenched intractable abject Poverty in India?

I say Yes... If it is so, what's the Solution?

Take care.

Cheers.

 

[sarma-61]

I do not think education will eradicate poverty anywhere. Along with education, there must be adequate opportunities for all the able-bodied (at least) to gainfully engage themselves in and make some earning/profits. India is lacking in this latter aspect, imho.

Leave aside the country statistics of 25 million births, only 19 million survive etc. India responded to the temporary boom in the ITsector and turned out millions of B.Techs all over the country and now, I understand these B.Techs/M. Techs are applying for bus conductor's job (Bihar, UP), assistane village officer's post (AP) and some are even reduced to pull rikshaws in WB. This is additional proof that education will not change the poverty situation.

What is needed is population control side by side effective prevention of people sneaking in by thousands or milliona from Bangladesh, POK, and even China. GOI has started the identity card as the panacea for this but with two authorities competing their card to be more important and with the present state of technology, it is quite possible that people across the border may already be coming in with their Adhar or PIN cards complete in all respects but made in Dubai or Nepal etc.

 

[Yamaka]

My response in bold letters below:

I do not think education will eradicate poverty anywhere. Along with education, there must be adequate opportunities for all the able-bodied (at least) to gainfully engage themselves in and make some earning/profits. India is lacking in this latter aspect, imho.

I disagree. From the experience of OECD countries (All the Advanced, "First World countries" in the world), and now China, we have learned that Quality Education and Health will lead to Wealthy Nations sooner or later.

Leave aside the country statistics of 25 million births, only 19 million survive etc. India responded to the temporary boom in the ITsector and turned out millions of B.Techs all over the country and now, I understand these B.Techs/M. Techs are applying for bus conductor's job (Bihar, UP), assistane village officer's post (AP) and some are even reduced to pull rikshaws in WB. This is additional proof that education will not change the poverty situation.

Population explosion mostly from poor households IS the key issue when we talk about POVERTY.. which appears to be running from generation to generation for 2000 years at least.

What is needed is population control side by side effective prevention of people sneaking in by thousands or milliona from Bangladesh, POK, and even China. GOI has started the identity card as the panacea for this but with two authorities competing their card to be more important and with the present state of technology, it is quite possible that people across the border may already be coming in with their Adhar or PIN cards complete in all respects but made in Dubai or Nepal etc.

Yes, I agree we need population control... Your "sneaking in" population, if any, is a very very small tiny in number in thousands, and perhaps a few millions... in the total of 1200 millions growing fast (from the poor households in India, that's very negligible, IMO.

A robust "One Child" Policy practiced voluntarily by the masses will be the route to go.. since a State Mandate will not work (unlike in China) in a deeply religious orthodox Society like India.

I support the UIN attempt by Nilakerani & Co.. This will help to deliver the basic services to the needy w/o the middle layer in the India9% steals before it reaches the India91%... India's policy makers are doing something right... but the needs are humongous and Himalayan!

Peace.

 

[C RAVI]

The root cause and the only cause for FATALISM & POVERTY in INDIA - CORRUPTION & EXPLOITATION.


Religion/Spirituality is playing constructively in some or other ways for INDIA91%-

1) Helping poors by way of Charity and reformations by philanthropists (to the level possible, part by part, here and there).

2) Preventing destressed poor folks from becoming outright criminals/moulding them to be ethical and responsible, enlightning them with their domestic & social DUTIES as per religious philosophies.

3) Earning opportunities through temple related jobs and many religious related activities.

4) A sense of joy and pleasure with positive attitude towards solidarity by way of Religious/Spiritual celebrations.

5) Spirituality is attempting to rehabilitate vexed poor folks who all are into 24/7 drinking and other bad activities, spoiling their health and adding to their financial constraints leading to no fecilities to their children etc..etc. AND making them understand what moral goodness and responsible living (responsibilities towards onself and family) is all about.


Corruption and Exploitation has created -

1) Bogus and fruitless schemes. Most of the schemes are in disguise to swindle money

2) Unemployment.

3) Lack of quality education in Government Schools.

4) Government's Economical/Financial constraints due all manupulations for the self interests of the politicians.

5) Terrorism activities. Causing the existence of extremists/revolutionary groups like nexalites and foriegn terrorists infiltrations.

6) Misleading and sustaining INDIA91% for the ulterior motives.

7) Instigating/exploding racism related riots and thereby damage to Humans, Humans personal properties and national assets.

8) Manupulating and duping INDIA91% and swindling their hard earned money and land

9) Generating more miserable population of prostitutes and making them suffer inside the gates of hell of poverty and suffering by cheating innocent poor girls and selling them off to the flesh trade.

10) Damaging the possible sense of moral goodness and confidence in poor folks unabling them to live in hopes of prosperity with reliable and good Goverence.


With all this CORRUPTION & EXPLOITATION has lead to FATALISM & POVERTY in India. This Corruption and Exploitation has sustained, enhanced and keep enhancing the strength of INDIA91%.

Shri Yamaka please wake up and work towards constructive strategies for the poor fellow country men who all are locked up inside the gates of hell of poverty due Corruption & Exploitation. Please for the sake of being a Naturalists, try to recognize the root cause as explained above and the most required initiatives as explained by me in my privious posts and make sure that your Projects in tie-up with NGO in India, for the upliftment of INDIA91% does not turn out to be fruitless.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Ravi:

Nice to get feedback often from you.. here are my corrections, agreements and disagreements in bold/different letters below -

The root cause and the only cause for FATALISM & POVERTY in INDIA - CORRUPTION & EXPLOITATION.

"I must correct this - Widespread Poverty in India: Is Religious FATALISM or Corruption/Exploitation the root cause?"

I take the position "Religious FATALISM" and you and others take the position "Corruption/Exploitation"... Fine, I get it.
Religion/Spirituality is playing constructively in some or other ways for INDIA91%-

1) Helping poors by way of Charity and reformations by philanthropists (to the level possible, part by part, here and there).

2) Preventing destressed poor folks from becoming outright criminals/moulding them to be ethical and responsible, enlightning them with their domestic & social DUTIES as per religious philosophies.

3) Earning opportunities through temple related jobs and many religious related activities.

4) A sense of joy and pleasure with positive attitude towards solidarity by way of Religious/Spiritual celebrations.

5) Spirituality is attempting to rehabilitate vexed poor folks who all are into 24/7 drinking and other bad activities, spoiling their health and adding to their financial constraints leading to no fecilities to their children etc..etc. AND making them understand what moral goodness and responsible living (responsibilities towards onself and family) is all about.

I agree to some extent this is all good for the Society... but I believe the same Religion/Spirituality has immeresed the India91% in the sea of Religious FATALISM to believe "It's ALL Pre-Ordained... Nothing can be changed in this world by humans".. I know you disagree. That's the point of contention here.


Corruption and Exploitation has created -

1) Bogus and fruitless schemes. Most of the schemes are in disguise to swindle money

2) Unemployment.

3) Lack of quality education in Government Schools.

4) Government's Economical/Financial constraints due all manupulations for the self interests of the politicians.

5) Terrorism activities. Causing the existence of extremists/revolutionary groups like nexalites and foriegn terrorists infiltrations.

6) Misleading and sustaining INDIA91% for the ulterior motives.

7) Instigating/exploding racism related riots and thereby damage to Humans, Humans personal properties and national assets.

8) Manupulating and duping INDIA91% and swindling their hard earned money and land

9) Generating more miserable population of prostitutes and making them suffer inside the gates of hell of poverty and suffering by cheating innocent poor girls and selling them off to the flesh trade.

10) Damaging the possible sense of moral goodness and confidence in poor folks unabling them to live in hopes of prosperity with reliable and good Goverence.

Many of this I agree... it leads to poor Education among the populace, which leads to poor Integrity & Professionalism among our People &Politicians which leads to poor Policies and Implementation.

Now, how will you bring Quality Education, if our kids are droping out of schools every year because of poor family situation: Parents say that they can't afford to send the kids to schools, they need income from them!???


With all this CORRUPTION & EXPLOITATION has lead to FATALISM & POVERTY in India. This Corruption and Exploitation has sustained, enhanced and keep enhancing the strength of INDIA91%.

Shri Yamaka please wake up and work towards constructive strategies for the poor fellow country men who all are locked up inside the gates of hell of poverty due Corruption & Exploitation. Please for the sake of being a Naturalists, try to recognize the root cause as explained above and the most required initiatives as explained by me in my privious posts and make sure that your Projects in tie-up with NGO in India, for the upliftment of INDIA91% does not turn out to be fruitless.

I am still trying to polish the whole issue - I still believe that if India9% adopts 10-20 families from India91% and guide them towards proper "Alternatives" in decision making, some GOOD result will come in about 20 years time.

WE need Population Control, and Quality Education to the India91%, I still believe.

Cheers.

 

[renuka]

The other day I saw this news about the Bomb blast in Bangkok. The bomber hurled a bomb at the police,
but the bomb hit a tree and bounced back at the Bomber killing him. What -ism would this come under?

Poor guy, he should have recited Nirvighnam kurume deva,Sarva karyeshu sarvadaa to prevent such a mishap..anyway I guess he had a blast of a time.

BTW since it proved Fatal becos of Fate..I guess its Fatalistic Fatelism.

 

[ShivKC]

Dear Shiv:
Dear Shiv, before we change the question, let's get the answer to the question already in play here!
Can Religious FATALISM be responsible at least partly to the entrenched intractable abject Poverty in India?
I say Yes... If it is so, what's the Solution?

uncle yams, there is a difficulty in answering to your question with a straight yes/no. have a look at the below argument and logical derivative about fatalism wrote by philosopher Origen in line with Aristotelian thoughts.

by any chance if you had tried writing CAT exams, i bet you will definitely agree with me, once you have done with the deductions of this below said logics.

• If it is fated for you to recover from this illness, then you will recover whether you call a doctor or not.
• Likewise, if you are fated not to recover, you will not do so whether you call a doctor or not.
• But either it is fated that you will recover from this illness, or it is fated that you will not recover.
• Therefore it is futile to consult a doctor.

this infers,that, even if one believes in fatalism, still he would look out for a solution, in spite of his belief on his fate.

so, uncle yams, if you wish to prove that 'fatalism is the root cause of poverty in india', then you need to break this logical argument trust we both will stay tuned to this point

 

[Haridasa Siva]

I want to be clear here:

Since most of the readers and writers here in this Forum are very well off (all connected by super-fast internet), the Religion they follow is not the kind followed by the 1100 million Indians.

This sub-set of people have their "Own Personal God and Religion" according to their own view of the world of Gods and Religion although they come under the broad domain of Sanathana Dharma.

These people follow "Pick and Choose" type and "Have the Cake and eat it too" type of ambivalent variety of God and Religion.

It is quite surprising that such a sweeping statement on the members of this forum have not been objected to. If you attack one, it is personal attack; if you attack a group, it is democracy?:whoo:

 

[sarma-61]

Hello Shiv:

Nice hearing from you.

Yes, prior to Chairman Mao & the Cultural Revolution, things were very different in China.

If you believe India will be prosperous (by per capita GDP) and will take the top TEN level in about 100-150 years, then I would say FATALISM has gone down for some mysterious reasons and ways.

I want to be clear here:

Since most of the readers and writers here in this Forum are very well off (all connected by super-fast internet), the Religion they follow is not the kind followed by the 1100 million Indians.

This sub-set of people have their "Own Personal God and Religion" according to their own view of the world of Gods and Religion although they come under the broad domain of Sanathana Dharma.

These people follow "Pick and Choose" type and "Have the Cake and eat it too" type of ambivalent variety of God and Religion.

In fact, I am no body to talk about such "Personal Gods and Religion". That's none of my business at all.

Therefore, I request people to get into the shoes of the 1100 million poor Indians and what THEY (poor people) perceive as their Gods and Religion (as I do) here.

More later...

Cheers.

Shri Yamaka sir,

Since you have made an unsubstantiated and sweeping statement covering 'most of the readers and writers here', permit me to inform that the so called superfast (they call it broadband here, though I do not know whether there is some technical difference between the two.) internet in many lesser towns and villages of India are still dead slow and frustratingly so, if you go to an internet cafe, like I do most of the time.

Secondly, the 1100 million poor indians who are so dear to your heart also worship the very same gods as the upper crust. If only you can take a break and come and spend one year touring India, you will be able to realize the truth of my statement.

There is one trend of thought here that generally the poorest sections consist of Muslims. Obviously, they all (the very rich and the very poor Muslims, both) believe in the very same God. Same is the case with the Christians too. Among the Hindus, it was true that before Independence the poorer sections (i.e., the lowest castes) had a separate pantheon to worship, but today, after 60 years their pantheon has got absorbed into the general pool and all Hindus worship any of these godheads.


I, therefore, think that while you may or may not be correct in attributing India's poverty to the god-belief of its poor, your notion that the poor have a separate set of gods, is not at all correct. I will say on the contrary, that the poor people support, through their meagre donations, many of the ostentatious festivals in all religious places.

 

[sarang]

1. India gets enough rain to immerse the whole land area under 2 metres of water. Problem is not the amount of water, but its distribution. In gujarat, water table has risen even in dessert areas of kutch because of of sarovar dam and canals. Even the rain deficit areas of ramnad and karaikudi had a viable water saving system in 'urunis'.

2. India has a large cultivable area; food grain production is about 250 million tons, and there is enough to feed the population. Last year, despite supreme court's advice, the central government allowed the grains to rot (the grains were stored in the open and the godowns were rented out to private parties). And, yield per acre is still far less than what is achieved in israel and other countries. In the past every community had established choultries for free feeding in every village and town. One will never spend a day hungry. Today, all modern vaishyas(!) (not the varna vaishyas) and ruler politicians, who make money by any means keep it to themselves.

3. India has a comparable population density- people per sq. km (belgium 337, germany 233, japan 337, UK 255, india 368, south korea 487, taiwan 639, italy 200) and can support in comfort a much bigger population. India has a higher percentage of cultivable area than many.

So, for us, poverty is not linked to population, religion, fatalism, karma, education, resources or caste system. Corrupt ruling class is the direct cause which consumes the resources, hoards the wealth, encourages crime and most keeps the voting public ignorant. (ignorance has nothing to do with education)

 

[ozone]

So, for us, poverty is not linked to population, religion, fatalism, karma, education, resources or caste system. Corrupt ruling class is the direct cause which consumes the resources, hoards the wealth, encourages crime and most keeps the voting public ignorant. (ignorance has nothing to do with education)

Good summary. I would add politics to the top of the list. And more than ignorance, it is mis leading, mis information, distorted or twisted information that rise from political motives that are more prominent causes.

 

[C RAVI]

Good summary. I would add politics to the top of the list. And more than ignorance, it is mis leading, mis information, distorted or twisted information that rise from political motives that are more prominent causes.

YES!!!!

High Level Corrupted/dirty politics administured by extremely corrupoted politicians (for whom swindling money is the only motive to be in politics) and the consequent faulty Governence is the root couse of FATALISM AND POVERTY leading the the existence of INDIA91%

The root caus of all the mis leading, mis information, distorted or twisted information due to dirty politics is causing FATALISM and Poverty in India. That's why INDIA91% exists and gonna remain existing.

Unless this is resolved, reformation possibilities in any ways and means to uplift INDIA91% can not bring the expected results.

INDIA91% is hopeless and hopless to the extent that they some how and some way are looking for divine interference to meet the expectations meraculously and for personal solace.

Preaching them against seeking personal solace from their Gods without resolving the core issues would terribly back fire the reforminst (who wants to instill values against spirituality and seeking personal solace/something good in return from their Gods) to the extent that Reformists would ever be in shock.

Shri Yamaka,

Please try to understand what is what and carry out certain projects than can be positively instrumental to uplift INDIA91%. Offcourse poor population should be controlled. But the techniques/strategies applied for it should not turn out to be fruitless. Instead of preaching them against spirituality it is prudent to educated them about the importance of family planning, providing phsycological counselling to imporove their moral goodness, making them understand what is their responsibilities towards their own family/family members and the nation, making them understand what politics in India is, making them understand what's the reasonable level of spirituality with rationalistic mind set etc..etc

Hope you will carefully analyze all the views here and come up with the best posible scheme and initiate your well planned required project in tie up with NGO's for the betterment of INDIA91%

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Mr. Sarma:

Nice reply... I am giving my response in bold letters below -

Shri Yamaka sir,

Since you have made an unsubstantiated and sweeping statement covering 'most of the readers and writers here', permit me to inform that the so called superfast (they call it broadband here, though I do not know whether there is some technical difference between the two.) internet in many lesser towns and villages of India are still dead slow and frustratingly so, if you go to an internet cafe, like I do most of the time.

I fully agree. There is slow narrow band and fast broad band internet connections.. most of India9% is connected by the broad band.. and the India91% has the slow narrow band, if any.

Secondly, the 1100 million poor indians who are so dear to your heart also worship the very same gods as the upper crust. If only you can take a break and come and spend one year touring India, you will be able to realize the truth of my statement.

Yes to some extent... they are worshiping the godheads like Murga, Shiva, Rama, Jesus or some unknown human figure (Muslims).. What I meant to say here is that they don't know anything about "Big Bang Theory" or the primordial nitrogenous soup from which the life forms started by the Divine Power etc etc.

There is one trend of thought here that generally the poorest sections consist of Muslims. Obviously, they all (the very rich and the very poor Muslims, both) believe in the very same God. Same is the case with the Christians too. Among the Hindus, it was true that before Independence the poorer sections (i.e., the lowest castes) had a separate pantheon to worship, but today, after 60 years their pantheon has got absorbed into the general pool and all Hindus worship any of these godheads.

Yes, Muslims and Christians are also poor or very poor. As I said before, their contribution is proportional to their population - about 15%. There are a few members here who are very eager to bring a Communal Color to this Poverty Problem! That's very regrettable.

Also, I must say that many of these people of Abrahamic religions still follow many of the customs of Hinduism, from which they got converted due to economic or "caste" reasons.

I, therefore, think that while you may or may not be correct in attributing India's poverty to the god-belief of its poor, your notion that the poor have a separate set of gods, is not at all correct. I will say on the contrary, that the poor people support, through their meagre donations, many of the ostentatious festivals in all religious places.

I should say again my simple logic for attributing India's Poverty to the Religious FATALISM:

Lack of Quality Education (QE) is the Prime Reason. I ask "Why the Populace is not getting QE in the Independent India?"

Answer: Very high drop out rate among kids. I ask "Why do they drop out - nearly 85% finally drop out before reaching 9th grade in High School?"

Answer: Family Poverty. Parents have too many kids. They need older kids to get some low paying job to feed the family!. I ask "Why do parents have too many kids that they can't feed and cloth them?"

Answer: "Oh, Kadavul giveth children, and Man Taketh" "It's all Poorva Janma Karma" or "Thalai Ezhuthu, Who can change it?"

I also acknowledge that poor politics, politicians and policies contribute to Poverty. To me the fundamental reason is the Population Explosion, leading to lack of QE, all fostered and maintained by the Religious Fatalism.

Peace.

 

[Yamaka]

1. India gets enough rain to immerse the whole land area under 2 metres of water. Problem is not the amount of water, but its distribution. In gujarat, water table has risen even in dessert areas of kutch because of of sarovar dam and canals. Even the rain deficit areas of ramnad and karaikudi had a viable water saving system in 'urunis'.

2. India has a large cultivable area; food grain production is about 250 million tons, and there is enough to feed the population. Last year, despite supreme court's advice, the central government allowed the grains to rot (the grains were stored in the open and the godowns were rented out to private parties). And, yield per acre is still far less than what is achieved in israel and other countries. In the past every community had established choultries for free feeding in every village and town. One will never spend a day hungry. Today, all modern vaishyas(!) (not the varna vaishyas) and ruler politicians, who make money by any means keep it to themselves.

3. India has a comparable population density- people per sq. km (belgium 337, germany 233, japan 337, UK 255, india 368, south korea 487, taiwan 639, italy 200) and can support in comfort a much bigger population. India has a higher percentage of cultivable area than many.

So, for us, poverty is not linked to population, religion, fatalism, karma, education, resources or caste system. Corrupt ruling class is the direct cause which consumes the resources, hoards the wealth, encourages crime and most keeps the voting public ignorant. (ignorance has nothing to do with education)

This is a nice analysis. I agree most of it except the final conclusion.

1. Yes, India is fully dependent of monsoon. Many years monsoon fails.

2. I am not sure about whether India can grow enough food to feed ALL of population adequately... many years pulses and oils are imported.

Maybe, India grows enough rice and wheat... not ALL that's needed for ALL people.

3. Population density in India is not as bad as in Japan or other countries mentioned. But there is a big difference. Watch, all the countries mentioned are economically superior - just compare the per capita GDP.

In India, the massive population is a LIABILITY, not an ASSET. Because most are ill skilled and poorly educated.

That's what we are talking about. Why the populace is not fully educated?..

It's the Quality Education that's paramount to the prosperity of the nation.

Now, please discuss about the QE in India! What forces give Structural Impediments to achieve QE in India?

I submit, at the end of the day, it's the Religious FATALISM.... please read my comment to Mr.Sarma, above.

We are making progress here, people.

Let's proceed in earnest to get to the bottom of the issue.

Peace.

 

[Yamaka]

YES!!!!

High Level Corrupted/dirty politics administured by extremely corrupoted politicians (for whom swindling money is the only motive to be in politics) and the consequent faulty Governence is the root couse of FATALISM AND POVERTY leading the the existence of INDIA91%

The root caus of all the mis leading, mis information, distorted or twisted information due to dirty politics is causing FATALISM and Poverty in India. That's why INDIA91% exists and gonna remain existing.

Unless this is resolved, reformation possibilities in any ways and means to uplift INDIA91% can not bring the expected results.

INDIA91% is hopeless and hopless to the extent that they some how and some way are looking for divine interference to meet the expectations meraculously and for personal solace.

Preaching them against seeking personal solace from their Gods without resolving the core issues would terribly back fire the reforminst (who wants to instill values against spirituality and seeking personal solace/something good in return from their Gods) to the extent that Reformists would ever be in shock.

Shri Yamaka,

Please try to understand what is what and carry out certain projects than can be positively instrumental to uplift INDIA91%. Offcourse poor population should be controlled. But the techniques/strategies applied for it should not turn out to be fruitless. Instead of preaching them against spirituality it is prudent to educated them about the importance of family planning, providing phsycological counselling to imporove their moral goodness, making them understand what is their responsibilities towards their own family/family members and the nation, making them understand what politics in India is, making them understand what's the reasonable level of spirituality with rationalistic mind set etc..etc

Hope you will carefully analyze all the views here and come up with the best posible scheme and initiate your well planned required project in tie up with NGO's for the betterment of INDIA91%

Dear Ravi:

This is the 200th Birth Year of Charles Dickens (b 1812 in England).

Only he can articulate adequately the horror of poverty in the 19th Century England.

India in the 21st Century is not any different... We have Jayakanthans, and others... to knock the conscience and shake up the Society to the immorality of poverty in India. Their words are not heard adequately, I suppose.

Poor Yamaka is asking the India9% to get into the shoes of India91% and live a day and see how it feels like...

Dear Ravi, please read my response to Mr. Sarma above of my simple logic of why I riot against the Religious Fatalism...

Most of the reasons you cite are some how connected to the Problem in a tangential way...

I strongly feel that lack of Quality Education is the prime reason... and in the final analysis, as I posited, it's the Religious FATALISM that's the root cause of it all....

Therefore, I propose that each family of the India9% adopt about 10 families in India91% and "guide them thru properly to have small families (one child per family) and their kids educated at least thru high school education seriously".

"Naam Iruvar Namaku Oruva" should be the Society's Call to All Members.....

This is my Solution to the problem.

As I said before, Religion & Spirituality has positive role to play here: "Calming the Population".

Innum varum...

Peace.

 

[sarang]

"In a society based on Hindutva, wealth cannot determine a person’s social status. It is vidya and tyaga leading to vairagya that merits the highest social status. Even wealthy persons by philanthrophy can get social status. Rishis Bhrigu and Bharadwaja thus devised the Varna system of society which regrettably now has degenerated into a birth-based vested interest of communities. Thus, Hindutva renaissance culled from Vedanta is the cure for greed and of corruption in the long run. This should be every patriotic Hindu’s battle cry for the coming war against corruption."

Subramanyam swamy

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Ravi:


"Naam Iruvar Namaku Oruva" should be the Society's Call to All Members.....

This is my Solution to the problem.

Shri Yamaka,

The Slogan - Naam Iruvan Namaku Oruvar, is infact past dated.


Couple of years before when I was in Chennai, I saw an interesting slogan written here and there. And that is - "Naame Iruvar Namakku Yen Innurvar?" That means - "We are already Two, Than why should we have another One?"



What I mean to say is, these slogans are required to educate mases for sure. This program comes under educating INDIAN91% about what is the importance of family planning, what's the meaning of responsible living for self and for the offsprings/family, what's the meaning of time/finance/skills management, what is moral responsibility and what is moral living etc..etc..etc..

Many population control program for the folks of INDIA91% need to be administered effectively without any sort of CORRUPTION & EXPLOITATION. If Corruption and Exploitation free initiatives are carried out and implemented for the overall betterment of INDIA91%, poverty leven can be expected to be declined.

These reformation programs has nothing to do with theism or atheism.

If the root couse - CORRUPTIONS & EXPLOITATIONS are eradicated, that are leading to FATALISM & POVERTY, INDIA91% can be expected to be ceased to exist.